Susan Blount Power Lunch Series with Sara Moss and Judge Nancy Atlas

Ah, I think I can't describe law school in one word or even a few words. There was agony and some ecstasy. In the beginning, mostly agony. As you know, we met in 1971, so we go back a long way. Law school was daunting to me. I had done well in college, but I was a teacher for three years before law school, so I came in not knowing what it would be like. There were a lot of men who sucked up a lot of air in the room. I remember my first cold call, which I flubbed completely. I remember the case, 53 years ago, and how stupid I felt. I didn't talk again for quite some time. I found my way eventually. I went to law school because I was passionate about women's rights and wanted to save the world. I took courses that fueled that passion, like a legal aid course. Law school got better. I wrote a law review article on the Equal Rights Amendment, which still hasn't passed. Law school was a mixed experience, but the ecstasy was meeting a group of women who were smart, gritty, and worked hard. NYU had a quarter women in the class, which is why I went there. The other top schools had 5% or fewer. We found each other, supported each other, had consciousness-raising groups, and many of us ended up at the top of our class. Finding my people, friends for over 50 years, made law school a wonderful experience. Yeah, what about you?

Yeah, I remember, Nancy. I remember first year, first semester after exams, before we got our grades, I had no idea if I had gotten A's or F's. It was the first time you had to spot an issue and analyze it. I had figured out how to do well in college, but law school was different. I remember that insecurity. When I did well, I remember a man in law school attacked me, saying I was taking the place of a man. He didn't do that well. I remember that complete insecurity and uncertainty. As we went on, confidence grew. That was life-changing for me. The men really did wonder why we were there taking a spot. I am very tied to my own law school because it gave me the launching pad for a career I never could have imagined. This year at our 50th reunion, Judge Atlas is getting the award for distinguished alumni, so your law school is devoted to you as well.

A nice easy question, that's a softball. I think there are a few keys. First is hard work. I worked incredibly hard wherever I went. I have four children, and someone once asked my daughter if she wanted to be a lawyer. She said absolutely not because it's like having homework for the rest of your life. That was true. From the beginning, I worked incredibly hard. At Davis Polk, I could never get my clothes cleaned because the cleaner wasn't open when I left or came home. So hard work and grit. Grit is a combination of passion and perseverance. I was passionate about what I was doing. I don't think you can work that hard for this long without passion. Resilience is also important. I certainly had failures in my life personally and professionally, and getting back up is a big part of it. There was a Broadway show called The Unsinkable Molly Brown, a woman who got thrown overboard on the Titanic but didn't drown. She hung on and got back up. One of the biggest compliments I ever got was a colleague at Estée Lauder who called me the unsinkable Sara Moss. That's grit and resilience. I am relentlessly optimistic. I hope I'm not naive, but I believe if you work hard enough, you can make it happen. That's true for law and many parts of life. And it's fun. All this is fun for me. I think fun is really important too. So that combination. What about you? You're pretty successful. You've been successful. So what are you?

Can I say a couple points to those points, Nancy? No, I'm sorry, yes. Well, you're not the judge anymore, so don't judge a conversation. But all your points are important. The one about listening is certainly important as a judge, and your reputation as a judge was outstanding. But it's really important as a lawyer. When I became general counsel, a lot of lawyers came to pitch business to me. I listened, I knew them, and I wanted to be polite. But they were all telling me how great they were. They were not listening to what I needed in my business. They didn't understand my business first of all. They didn't pay enough attention or take the trouble to understand my business. When I talked to them, they weren't really listening. They were trying to tell me how great they were, and it just didn't work. So this point about listening is important from the very beginning. Understanding what Judge Atlas said about putting yourself in the other person's shoes is key. It's not about how great you are or how smart you are. It's about solving the problem, and you can't solve the problem if you don't understand the problem. The other thing you said that has been critical in my life is that what goes around comes around. Judge Atlas talked about people she worked with who then recommended her for her judgeship. That's true in life. I have many examples of things I've done well or where I've helped people, and it comes around to help you. This is part of your reputation. When you don't do it, that comes back as well. What goes around comes around is very important, particularly in the law. It's a small community, even in Houston, even in New York City. You build your reputation. When you meet your commitments, you get known for that. You basically pull the rug out from under me, that's one chance you get to do that. That becomes your reputation, so it's really important to remember.

They generally did pay off, and I would recommend it to others. I think women especially don't take risks. Because I didn't have a career plan, it was easier for me to take risks. For example, I was an associate at Davis Polk, a great firm, doing well. I wanted to go to the U.S. Attorney's office. The senior partner sat me down and said, 'You've got a great future here, but if you go, you can never come back.' This was one of the best firms in New York, and I had a good future there. It was a huge risk to go and do something I wanted to do, but I didn't know where it would lead or if I'd be good at it. It was very hard. I took that leap, and it was probably the best decision I ever made. Another risk: I left the U.S. Attorney's office because I was pregnant with my first child. As Judge Atlas will tell you, that's a 24/7 job. So I went back to Davis Polk. They said I could never come back, but when I was ready to leave the U.S. Attorney's office, they said please come back. I wanted to work part-time when I had two small children, and they created a part-time program for me. A group of men I knew were starting a law firm. They asked me to come in as a partner. I had a great future at Davis Polk, but it wasn't that much fun. These guys were excited and excited about bringing me in. I did it. I was earning less as a partner at this new firm than I was working part-time at Davis Polk, so it was a huge risk. I had four children, and my income was important. But I took that leap, and it took a while to build the firm, but we did, and it was spectacular and very successful. Going to Pitney Bowes, leaving practice, I had built a good practice at the firm. I was offered a job as general counsel. At that point, I was the 11th woman general counsel of a public company in the United States. This was 1996. I didn't really know how to do that job, but I figured I had the tools and would go for it. My mantra to myself was, 'What's the worst thing that can happen?' Obviously, I was going to give it my best and do a great job if I could. If it didn't work out, I could probably go back to a law firm. So again, taking risks that are not crazy but stretched and were not completely in my comfort zone has made...

My career, not just rewarding but fun, and I come back to that because I think you work so hard and spend so much time, you wanted it to be energizing and fun.

Pitney Bowes, by the way, was a company that had stamp machines, so it was technical, and Estée Lauder has a huge business component but is in a different industry. So, what goes around comes around—building a network. I was a senior litigation partner, trying cases. My last trial was in front of Sonia Sotomayor; it settled at the end because she beat us up. I got a call about being general counsel at Pitney Bowes from a headhunter who was my daughter's classmate's mother. The new CEO wanted a litigator willing to sue the Postal Service. We hit it off. I didn't have a patents or copyrights background, but I learned quickly. After five years, I was ready to move on. I looked at public interest and even an offer to be an anchor on Court TV, but I didn't take it. Being general counsel of a publicly traded company has similarities no matter the business; Estée Lauder is more global and glamorous, but the components are the same.

Well, yes, very much. Estée Lauder is a publicly traded, family-controlled company. The Lauder family controls the voting stock. The word is not confidant as much as trust. Every good general counsel needs the trust of senior management, the board, and the family. You earn trust by telling the truth, speaking truth to power, giving your best judgment, and having a clear sense of right and wrong. Sometimes the general counsel has to be the moral compass. Earning trust was critical to my success and broader responsibility.

Oh, absolutely. It goes back to resilience. I went to law school to be an advocate for women's rights. I wanted to work with Ruth Bader Ginsburg at the ACLU, but I didn't get that job. That was a blow. But I regrouped. I joined Davis Polk as a litigator, planning to learn the ropes for two or three years. I did pro bono cases at night while working corporate cases. That foundation led to opportunities.

Not so much. I like to get up early. I had a social life when I was at Davis Polk. With four children, I had to get up early. So 30 or 50 years, I didn't sleep much.

All right, we're going to switch. Can I just say one thing there too? I think women don't appreciate their value. As I went on in my career, I got a better appreciation. When I was offered the job at Pitney Bowes, I was concerned about commuting with four kids. I negotiated a driver to make it work. When I became Vice Chairman at Estée Lauder, I negotiated a portfolio that included women's leadership work. Recognize your value and what you need to make your life work. And 4 to 7 a.m. is my prime time.

I have a lot of thoughts. First, develop expertise. When I came back from the US Attorney's office, I had tried big cases and had expertise that partners or clients needed. Build relationships—not just with general counsel but with lawyers inside companies at the next level. Support them, give them ideas. Listen. Women should help women. Be part of networks and speak on panels.

Can I just add to that? Understand the business if you're going out for business development. When I was general counsel, one lawyer came in and said he had been thinking about my business and suggested something. I was completely blown away. That's really important.

Leonard Lauder used to call the legal department the Sales Prevention Unit. I wanted to change that. At Estée Lauder, I embedded lawyers in the business. They were part of the senior business team for brands or regions while reporting to me. They understood the business and were seen as part of the team. Example: Tom Ford wanted to name a fragrance 'Fabulous'. Our lawyer figured out where we could use that name and where we had to use asterisks. Tom Ford later thanked the legal team. That's how we roll.