Alte Schule #29: Dr. Wolfgang und Ferdinand Porsche (der Podcast)

In elementary school, but that was ages ago. Yes, that was in the 1950s. How did it come about? I was born in Stuttgart and came to Zell am See at two months old and was here for six and a half years. That's why I always say my home is Zell am See. That shaped me. I became aware that Porsche was something special, although I have to say that Porsche is of course much bigger today. Back then, it was a post-war thing. There were a few cars, Daimler was always important. I know we always got annoyed when there was a Le Mans race, it was everywhere, and we were just a class winner. But it was so small, that wouldn't be the case today. Today, Porsche has a very good image, thank God, but that's certainly also because we try not to be too flashy. And I honestly say, in such a large corporation, you have to be very careful not to get carried away. It's a big task, but it's not like that. It would be as if the country had succeeded.

Yes, above all, there were many who said it's no longer a Porsche. The old guard wanted the 356 and didn't want anything changed. And that's still the case today: you must never change. I mean, we have the same thing now with the 911. The Taycan is maybe still a bit too far away, but the Panamera... We have to watch out. We are actually a sports car company, but now due to the volume of vehicles—I mean, we make over 250,000 cars. We used to make 25,000, or even 20, and delivered 3,000 cars to the USA. And today, our largest market is China. We deliver 86,000 cars a year. We sold them all in the inter-bundesrepublik. So we have no production outside of Germany at the moment.

Yes, above all, you get the feeling that there are people at the helm who don't have the sense that they might trigger something they didn't want to trigger. We are currently seeing a marked... one can only hope that the other side doesn't take it as badly as the other says. But I mean, enthusiastic about war from the beginning... The First World War is a good example of how everyone thought they had to help this one and that one, and they all end up leading to war.

After my Abitur, I got a Porsche 912. But my father told me that when I started my studies, I would have to give it back. So I didn't want to study. I studied in Vienna and got a Beetle. I then converted that Beetle with a 95 hp Porsche engine, disc brakes, and halogen lights. I loved that car because it was just fast enough that the Mercedes 190 could barely keep up. You couldn't tell by looking at it. That's the best thing, these sleeper cars that are souped up. I sold that car to a friend who was even a sales manager in Austria. He had a trailer hitch put on it. I told him that was nonsense because the car would get too hot. But he drove to the Adriatic with his little boat behind it. Afterwards, he found out the engine got way too hot, like I told him before. So he sold the car, and after three weeks, the new owner crashed into a tram on Mariahilfer Strasse. The car was a total loss. Too bad, that was it.

Okay, that's not unrealistic. But now you can take the hat off. Yes, yes, by now he trusts me. Actually, by now I'm allowed to drive almost all of them. The problem isn't that he drives badly; the problem is that he drives too fast. That's why I'm very glad he has a Salzburg license plate now. My main residence is in Zell am See, and all the license plates are registered to me. So when he borrows one, I'm always afraid I'll get another ticket.

We actually love driving. It was practically possible with all cars. I've even made a little booklet where I recorded my Nürburgring laps from 2017 to 2019. I drove GT2, GT3, and 94. I even drove both 550 Spyders. They are all great. Honestly, the 550 that was at the GP last year, which belonged to Kurt Ahrens' father, originally belonged to my father. Yes, my father had it. You can drive it with the steering wheel a lot. Then Kurt Ahrens got it. I have a white one with a European racing history and a silver one with an American racing history. James Dean supposedly test-drove the silver one. If it's not true, it's still a great story.

The reason none of us have raced is that my father didn't want it. I remember a team Canada event for skill, not speed. At the Zurich Porsche meeting in '63, we drove from Lech to Zurich. There was no such thing as this event back then, and that meeting doesn't exist anymore either. But a car that Mr. Rutschgefahr Arnstein told me I absolutely had to drive had spike tires, and it was on dry asphalt. He let me drive with those tires. I wasn't that old. Anyway, my father gave him a big lecture about how he could let me drive on dry asphalt with spike tires. That's deadly. There were also parking lot events. You have to say, driving was a bit more dangerous back then. There's always a certain risk. My father always said he needed his sons. He was very glad that one of them became a businessman, traveling in China. That was very important to him. So I can say I am very happy. I have three sons and a daughter. My eldest son is a neurologist, a doctor. It's always good to have that in the family. My sister knows that. Ferdinand is studying architecture, and Felix is writing his bachelor's thesis at the University of Vienna, where I also studied. The daughter also studied design. So they all did something.

Yes, that was certainly a major effort. I also know that these cars were not entirely safe. They didn't pay off. They took off sometimes. That happened at Mercedes too. There was an insane amount of horsepower and speed, and keeping them on the road was certainly not easy. But I think what is so important for Porsche is that racing was always for the customer. What was tested there was eventually introduced in the series, mostly technical things, not just frills. But that was always the great strength of Porsche: that with these sporting successes, someone who likes to drive a car would say, 'I drive a car like that, and they also win races.' I think that's very, very important. That's one point. The second point is the Porsche clubs. There are over 650 Porsche clubs worldwide with over 600,000 members. The Porsche Club USA alone has 120,000 members. That naturally bonds people together. This family feeling originally came from my father and the family, but then also from these club events. I remember I have been to clubs at least 20 times. I always went to Japan. It was so important for a family member to go there. It's always fun.

I went to Le Mans with my father the last few times. We left Stuttgart at 9 in the morning. He said we leave at 9. He sat down next to me, opened the Michelin guide, and looked where we could have lunch. That was a great pleasure. He found a starred restaurant, and we went there, 4 km from the highway. Then we drove on. On the way back, at the border in Strasbourg, the customs officer said, 'What's in that reserve canister?' He said, 'Gasoline.' The German asked, not the Frenchman. He had to pour it into the tank. He said, 'No, why? It's German gasoline. See, it's blue. I brought it with me, and I'm taking it back.' I'm not even sure if he had to pour it out. I think he checked the luggage. Then a French border guard walked by and said, 'Isn't it nice, Herr Porsche, to come home with a victory?' Yes, that was it.

Yes, it was often not enough to hold it.

It was exactly as you said. The die-hard fans, to whom I also count myself a bit, you can tell, those who have a heart for air-cooled cars, the die-hard 356 fans actually totally rejected the new 911. I mean, you have to say that. It wasn't just with the new 911, but I'm also including the 928, which came a bit later, which Professor Fuhrmann promoted and even had it race against a 911 on the Nürburgring Nordschleife and told journalists that the 928 was much faster and much safer. And there was even consideration at the time to split production, so the future was 45 cars a day, maybe 530 928s and maybe 15 911s. You can think about what would have happened if that had been the case. That was a real demand. And then the die-hard fans, and especially the new 911 people who loved the car, were afraid that it would be discontinued. That was definitely a consideration, but it would have been insane, because the car... I have one. I mean, it was certainly ahead of its time, but I didn't find it particularly beautiful, with those sleepy eyes. The feeling is that the flaps are only for the cw value, otherwise they make no sense. Otherwise, they are of their time. But I mean, that was also because this car was never that big and didn't have as much space as you would have guessed from the outside. There I have to say, when I think about how we, five or six of us, sat in a 356, we sat in the back, my parents sat in the front. We were still small, but still, we fit. We weren't babies. So 10, 12 years old, you can't imagine. It was a different time. I sometimes say, when I think about what this company has already endured. Absolutely, it's unimaginable. In '29, even with the 911, the engine power was reduced to give the 928 a bit of a boost. That's absolutely... I make the headlines: the customer must decide what he wants. And sometimes, unfortunately in the group as well, at least in the past, it was very focused on the US business. The Beetle always sold, but everything that was made afterwards was actually always somewhat ridiculed in the US. The Jetta maybe sold for half the time, but those were always cars conceived in Wolfsburg, and the Americans were blessed with the thing whether they wanted it or not. And that's why I simply believe it's very important to involve the customers. The customer is the service, the cohesion, those are very important things. I can't just make cars and the connective tissue is the electric car. I can't tell a customer you have to drive electric. If he doesn't believe he can get from A to B, then you can give him 4000 euros, he still won't buy the car. Now, at the ice race, you can see how well electric cars work on ice. They do well. But when I think about range anxiety, like when your phone only has 50% battery left and you're not sure if it will last the day, I think the electric car is probably just a feeling. Because it's naturally a fixed win. Most electric cars, I can drive from Vienna to Salzburg. Then I can... it very often happens that you find a slower Tesla behind a truck near Mondsee, probably because he doesn't believe he'll make it to Salzburg otherwise, or only very slowly. And from Salzburg to Vienna, near St. Pölten, it can also happen that he drives slower. But when it gets to the end, they will just have to imagine. That's why I drive, I love it, and I'm always sure. Yes, I think the most important thing is that you don't just charge the batteries with the engine, because then it makes no sense. Then it's actually just window dressing. That's why the legislator is now being a bit cautious. A hybrid must have a certain range, a certain battery size, to get a subsidy. I always charge my Panamera at home, so I can say that's how it is. They thought I could get up to 37 kilometers purely electric. That's not a huge amount, but it's enough for most business trips, especially in Hamburg. Friends of mine who drive in the city only drive electrically, charge at home, and drive off. That's only inter-city. And some could also charge while shopping or at work if there were a charging station there, then you could use it even better. My concern is whether we can get the infrastructure right. The infrastructure has to be right. I mean, if 1000 cars want to charge every day at a highway rest stop, and at the moment, if I register that I want to charge somewhere in Munich, the system has to work. If there are five cars in front of you, you sit there for nothing, even though you might only need ten minutes for another 100 kilometers. But I think everything takes a bit of time. You have to involve the customer. If you only decide things at a desk, that doesn't work. He wants to experience it and believe it. Professor Fritz Indra, whom I have also been allowed to interview, is not the biggest electric fan, one could say, but he also said you have to start from the customer. You have to see what the customer buys, and you can't force him. And at the moment, it's simply the case that the diesel, as a bread-and-butter car, is better in terms of price-performance ratio. And when electric cars are no longer subsidized and are taxed, that's when it starts. The politicians are all crazy. It's absurd to decide on a nuclear phase-out together with electromobility. That's actually a clean... and here we see a reason why the nuclear phase-out in the leadership bodies in Japan... and I heard this from someone who was told by the Chancellor: 'You know, I also know that there can be tsunamis here, but we had elections and that doesn't look good, so I said we'll phase out.' After Marc Rath predicted 340, you extend it, then you have to... the politicians are so driven. And the French and the countries around us all have nuclear power, and we import it. It's guaranteed that you can't produce cheap electricity yourself and... the Germans would continue to develop this technology, and they are good at it, but now they've stopped everything because they don't do it themselves anymore. So it's a bit difficult when you imagine that for Porsche, or your grandfather Ferdinand, ever thought that a charging station for an electric car would be installed on a sign here. Why not, actually? He already built electric cars in 1900. So in the end, it's not that far-fetched. But he realized back then that it wasn't time to do it that way. So you could say 100 years later, it should work. I know he also welcomed the hybrid, because he welcomed it when others did it. The car was relatively heavy, as it still is today. In a tender, it's a team. It's also the question, I believe the battery topic will also develop. Nobody really wants to drive from Munich to Hamburg in a purely electric car on the highway at 150 km/h. Instead, you should be able to drive on diesel or petrol for long distances. If you take so much battery weight with you, you need a relatively large battery, and that means a lot of weight, and then you have to move three tons. That can only be an exercise. Or these dreams of Elon Musk to build trucks with electric motors. That doesn't work either if you can't charge in between. Half the load is already batteries. You have to dream a bit. And he also does practical design. That was certainly an absolute possibility for the vehicle. I think so too. It's so difficult that the dam transport content is no longer given. We agree that electric is a bridge technology, and eventually hydrogen will come, or engines will become so efficient and light. The cars, that's also a topic. I think the engine developers will go so far and build engines that consume little and emit little CO2. And then suddenly the customers come and want it the way it was before, which also ruins a lot. And I tell you, synthetic fuels will also be a topic. It will be tight, Michael Mann. And the politicians are called upon. They hold everything back. All the taxes and levies on petrol, that's very important to them. But we could drive all our old cars with synthetic fuel, and not with 200 grams of CO2, but with maybe ten grams less, because the CO2 is taken from the atmosphere. But the legislator is now working on it, they try to do as little as possible, or do something in the wrong direction. And I can quote for us that this title scandal would not have happened if politics had been more open to other solutions. So as I said, it will be decided at some point. What is difficult in such topics is to make quick decisions. Now it's 226, now 195, and every gram not achieved costs 95 euros per vehicle. So the fines will be high. And that's actually the main danger: if you don't get enough cars on the road, you'll have a hard time because the fines are too high. I heard now, I won't say the brand, but a manufacturer calculated about 250 million in fines for this year, and then looked at it more closely and now believes it will probably be a billion in fines. That naturally hurts for further developments, for the press, or for the shareholders' dividends. It's dangerous.

Yes, yes, no. I think we can only do this together, and the group wants to... I'm pretty sure that would be a relatively large dependence on China, and they are not a democracy. They make their laws as they see fit. I was just in Shanghai for three days, and the last time I was in China was eight years ago. It's insane what has developed there. These gigacities and the mobility within these cities, that's a completely different problem than we have here in Zell am See or in our big cities, so to speak, only in Germany or in Vienna. Isn't it actually crazy when you think that we are, let's say, 50 years apart, and what they have experienced in terms of developments and upheavals in 7 to 45 years, you experience in fast motion in five years. I think the auto industry has never changed as much as it has in the last five years. You can say it's exciting, but you can't stop the times. And in the end, there are many things that are changing all over the world, not just the auto industry, but many industries and many areas. And it's actually a very exciting time. So absolutely, and that's why I'm very glad that I'm here in this time. But are you afraid that in 50 years you'll have to drive robot cars? Actually, no. I think there will be robot cars and you might be allowed to drive them, but I think I'll still drive myself. But I think first of all, on the Grossglockner, you always have to... you can be sure that on your blog... it's crazy, we are often presented with illusions. To quote someone who is always a pioneer in daring marketing and sends his cars into space, but he acts as if Tesla will have an autonomous car in five years. I don't think I will experience a fully autonomous car with level 5 in my lifetime, one that does everything on its own and makes all decisions, if only because the manufacturers won't be liable. From Stuttgart airport to the city, past the TV tower near Hohenheim, I once had two kilometers where I couldn't even phone. I just wonder how it is today. It's a topic in Germany that we are cheeky, and it's not only... but unfortunately also in Germany. And when I think that the Chinese build over 100 new coal-fired power plants every year, then I ask myself, are we the only ones who then have three or four? It's like that, and a lot of money is paid so that they now stop at 38. I'm curious, because in China, the children are mourning, skipping school on Fridays. Maybe it would be a lasting thing, but then I do a study from Friday... I have it too.

Yes, yes, with the platform. But I think that applies to everyone. You have to be careful not to flood a market with one model from the group. For a mass manufacturer, that's more difficult than for us, but I think they can manage it to some extent, otherwise you get this cannibalization topic, which you need like a hole in the head, because you always have to come down from it. I have experienced that otherwise.

Well, we will still build the full cars. I assume that too, but not too many. You have always had outstanding employees and outstanding racing drivers in Porsche history. I was allowed to interview some. Are there any without whom Porsche would probably have been a different company? Let's say, especially in the development of the new 911 or the further development of the new 911 or the racing cars, or... Walter Röhrl was very helpful. I should send him warm regards, because yesterday I was on the phone with him. He is a very active racing driver who contributes a lot to optimizing things. That's very important. But the most important thing to me is that we don't build too many cars, and I always tell the board that we should always have two cars too few. And that's not so easy in this group because they would like a few more so that we can deliver a bit more. But the board, who probably gets their salary based on car sales, will say... you notice immediately when you have too many of one model, it starts. The dealer then has so many cars, and then the dealer is quiet, and that must not happen. That must not happen at Porsche. And the board is actually relatively good at that. Oliver Blume does it really well, and also the Americans. And I said earlier, almost 90,000 Porsche Cayennes and Panameras in China, insane in a formerly socialist country.

Yes, that was a topic. We only had expensive cars, and they were overpriced, and they only had four wheels like any other. And I say it again, you had many, many features that you need in a car today, whether it's the whole digitalization, the electronics, and so on. We didn't have any of that. We then introduced it step by step. And Wiedeking was the one who did that step by step. He left nothing to chance. Yes, yes, there were people who would have liked to knock, but we were strong enough, thank God, and rejected it, and we ultimately freed ourselves from that topic. And much of what Wiedeking brought in that direction is still there today. Sometimes you are skeptical because he was relatively... he was very young. I have to say, he was incredibly young, five years younger than me when he became Porsche CEO. I don't know if I could have done that at his age. I asked him back then if he would do it, because he was at Greko, so he had left us. He was a production assistant for Mr. von Oppeln in production and actually got to know the family because we always had events where we brought the young people a bit closer to the company. And Wiedeking gave a presentation about the new paint shop in Stuttgart at the time. Then he said to me, he was going to Greko now, but if I ever needed something, he would get in touch. He probably thought that could be, but they would get in touch. Then the problem was, who would do it now? We had Wolfgang Reitzle, I think. Well, that was Wolfgang Reitzle. That was one consideration, and Wiedeking was the other. Wolfgang Reitzle had a bit of a leaky spot, and besides, von Kuenheim from BMW, I think, also... but von Kuenheim as chairman of the supervisory board said, welcome. But at BMW, because the listeners might not know, and I'll never forget what Wolfgang Reitzle said to me: 'You know, I'm now on a high seas ship, and you would like me to jump onto a launch.' Yes, as I said, they had many chances. Well, we also considered giving him a small stake if we really failed. You have to do the topic right. I'll make it short: the entire stake they considered giving in that situation back then would be worth almost a billion today. So then I asked the others to leave at an early stage. Then I asked Mr. Wiedeking, I would talk to him. I'll never forget, he said, 'Now it's time. I said I'd get in touch.' I said, 'How about it?' He had a contract from Greko for another five years lying in front of him, already signed. He said no. But if it's not signed, you just don't sign it and come to us. He said, 'I'll get back to you tomorrow.' The next day, he said, 'Let's do it.' That was also a stroke of luck, because if he had signed that contract, he wouldn't have been able to get out of it with a five-year contract. I said I would call him, and I was at Heidhof and called him from there. He wanted to know, and then he came and really implemented this Japanese manufacturing system, Kaizen or whatever it's called. Whole football fields became free in production. It was all... we could sublet to Mercedes. We also had Mercedes build the... I once had the entrance. It was never the 124, the three plants on the 59 assembly line. They were also at Mercedes. I was at Mercedes from '76 to '81, responsible for sales. I had a good connection to the old Professor Zahn. He was strict, also to his colleagues, but I learned a lot.

In the car, of course. Probably with an R, I think. That's actually a funny number. Or if you have already driven a 15, you can afford to break it, then it can't be used anymore. If you... yes, I would trust myself not to break it but to bring it out safely. But I think you can get relatively many laps out of 50 kilometers, and the track is not that long. I think it would be fun, and that's why I think that would be my choice for my last 50 kilometers. So I assume that if that happens, I won't be driving anymore. Then you give me your 50 liters. I think you either have to drive with a lot of joy, using those 50 liters, or you think about how you can drive the longest, and then you'll probably take a hybrid. You drive. The important thing would be that you have a car with a tank larger than 50 liters so you don't need a reserve canister. That's the most important thing.