Board Member for Human Resources and Legal Affairs, Labor Director, Deutsche Telekom AG
Personalführung im Zeitalter der KI - Was macht uns Menschen wirklich aus? - Birgit Bohle
Wie sieht die Personalführung im Zeitalter der Künstlichen Intelligenz aus? Und wie kann es gelingen eine gute Balance ...... Schaltzentrale der Hauptzentrale der Deutschen Telekom mit Birgit Bohle der vorständin für Personalrecht und arbeitsdirektorin ...
Transcript (38 segments)
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Christoph Glaser0:00
A question you might ask a man less often than a woman, and a mother: How do you manage it? Where do you actually get the strength to juggle everything? It's funny that we still ask women that more. For me, this work-life balance, family-work balance is a bit strange because every person has 24 hours a day and 7 days a week, and in the end it's a question of what takes priority at what time and how we set priorities. Deutsche Telekom shapes life in the world through artificial intelligence, but AI is also changing how your 200,000 employees do their work internally. What changes are you experiencing or seeing in the future? AI will increasingly become an absolute tool we can no longer imagine without. When I started my training, Excel and PowerPoint were just coming in. Today you'd be hard pressed to find an office worker who doesn't master those tools. It's the same with AI: an absolute work tool—how do I prompt correctly, how do I gather information quickly and efficiently, how do I get a first draft of a text? That will continue; the interaction between human and machine will intensify, and we would all be well advised to treat it like a meta‑competency that leaders need. You often feel under pressure because everything changes so fast and the narratives are sometimes negative. But having the courage to take time for yourself so you can run again with more energy and direction—I think that's a meta‑competency. Leadership begins with self‑leadership. If I can't lead myself, I'll find it hard to lead others, to recognize the signals inside me, to listen to them, and then to have that sensitivity for other people in a team. I think that's truly essential. Welcome, my name is Christoph Glaser. I'm delighted you've tuned in to the 'Learning from Leaders' podcast. Today everything is about magenta, because I'm here in beautiful Bonn, at the headquarters of Deutsche Telekom, with Birgit Bohle, the board member for Human Resources and Legal Affairs and Labor Director. Dear Mrs. Bohle, thank you so much for taking the time—I know how busy you are.
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Birgit Bohle2:52
Thank you for the invitation, Christoph Glaser.
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Christoph Glaser2:55
In this podcast we want to look behind the scenes, to find out what makes successful people, extraordinary personalities, leaders tick. What makes them successful? What is the secret of success? And when did the person maybe fall down, and above all, how did they get back up? When I try to trace your career journey, Mrs. Bohle, it's incredibly fascinating: you co‑led Deutsche Bahn, were CEO of DB Fernverkehr AG, drove digitalization there, and now you are responsible for no fewer than 200,000 employees in your role. That is enormous. So I asked myself: if your parents, when you were about 15, had been asked 'Birgit will become something someday'—did that already show that you would one day lead thousands of people, or how did that develop?
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Birgit Bohle3:51
I think my mother would definitely have said, 'She'll become something,' but she wouldn't have meant 'board member for HR and Legal at Telekom.' My mother always gave me the very clear feeling that I am good as I am, and whatever I choose for myself, that's what it should be. She was a teacher, raised me alone, and was very far from the business world. I actually had the idea of going into business around that age, maybe a year or two later, and that came from my paternal grandmother, whom I knew as a businesswoman. We didn't have much contact, but I knew her and she was a role model for me. But she would never have said I'd become a board member. Funny enough, I recently found in my high‑school yearbook a profile page that said 'She'll become a board member one day.' So maybe the early signs were there. What I think is wonderful is that my mother gave me the feeling that I'm okay as I am. She managed that because she herself went her own way—she was the first in her family to finish high school and go to university, then became a teacher. It was natural for her; she didn't have much support from her own family but also no obstacles. So she had already walked that path for me, and it wasn't hard for her. At the same time, I was a very good student—hardworking, disciplined, and I had friends—so there was little reason for her to worry. And obviously my colleagues already recognized it. But I never had the thought of aiming for a board position, not for many years. I don't even know how that thought came about; I could never figure it out. I first did an apprenticeship—a bit unusual—because I wanted to test for myself whether I really wanted to work in business, since I had no experience. Then I went to university, and via Bertelsmann, McKinsey, Deutsche Bahn, I came to Telekom.
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Christoph Glaser7:10
Today you are responsible for so many people—200,000 at work, but also a lot at home. You have two children, a wonderful family. I thought to myself, that's two full‑time jobs. And it's a question you might ask a man less often than a woman and a mother, but I'll ask it anyway: How do you manage it? Where do you really get the strength to juggle everything?
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Birgit Bohle7:43
What does 'two full‑time jobs' mean? For me this work-life balance, family-work balance is a bit weird because every person has 24 hours and the week has 7 days. In the end it's a question of what comes first at which moment, and how do we actually set priorities. For my two children—my daughter and my son, a child with autism—my husband and I have always shared responsibility. There were times when my husband took on more care while I worked full‑time; I also worked part‑time for a while. I think, like in many families, we managed it together. For example, looking at my son's support, who needed a lot of help all the time and still does at 18, my husband was the one who taught him to ride a bike and swim, while I focused more on reading and math practice throughout his school years. So as a team, as a couple, we have managed it superbly up to today. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible.
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Christoph Glaser9:25
At work you have a great team at Deutsche Telekom, and obviously at home too. I often think that energy management is even more important than time management. No matter who we are, we only have these 24/7 hours, but are we fit and do we enjoy what we do? I see your joy in work especially strongly when you talk about artificial intelligence. The world is changing incredibly fast—some say faster than ever, others say it will never be as slow again. That can bring joy or fear. You seem energized by this topic. What gives you strength or pleasure in it?
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Birgit Bohle10:14
I fondly remember the first moment I actually used ChatGPT. Of course AI existed before GPT, but for me it was like the first time I was in the USA and went into the World Wide Web—suddenly I felt a new world opening, a gateway to a new world. I had exactly that feeling when I did my first two or three prompts with GPT. All at once this world of AI opened up to me and to a much broader group of people. I truly believe it offers incredible opportunities to make life better—think of advances in medicine, in solving big questions like feeding the population. We have to shape it, and from a business perspective we have a responsibility to shape it responsibly, because there are also major risks. Interestingly, Germany is quite leading in AI publications—third in the world. But Deutsche Telekom is definitely world‑leading. Let us take a look into the Telekom lab—what innovation are you excited about right now?
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Christoph Glaser11:53
Germany is third in AI publications worldwide, but Deutsche Telekom is clearly leading. Could you give us a glimpse into Deutsche Telekom's lab? What innovation are you currently excited about?
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Birgit Bohle12:03
We at Deutsche Telekom were already working with AI before the hype around GPT. Some practical examples: we have had chatbots for a long time that enable customers to have really good dialogues, resolving many simple inquiries, so our colleagues in service centers can focus on complex issues. That leads to shorter wait times and better customer service. Or consider fiber‑optic expansion—we aim to build another two and a half million new fiber connections in Germany this year, as we did last year. We survey entire areas with a so‑called tcar, and all planning is processed using AI. We could not do that quickly enough without AI, and people would not get internet access so fast. Or our T‑Systems division, active in health, recently won a prize for a project in Spain that uses AI to evaluate health data to better predict a patient's condition, potentially saving lives. So we have a lot going on. We have built a great team of experts, and at the same time, each division is responsible for driving it forward.
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Christoph Glaser14:10
Deutsche Telekom shapes life with artificial intelligence, but AI also changes the way your 200,000 employees do their work internally. What changes are you experiencing or seeing in the future? How does AI affect daily work?
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Birgit Bohle15:06
AI is becoming an absolute tool that we can no longer imagine living without. I compare it to when I started my training and Excel and PowerPoint were emerging—today you would not find an office worker who does not master those tools. It is the same with AI: it will be, and already is, an absolute work tool. How do I prompt correctly? How do I quickly and efficiently aggregate information? How do I get a first draft of a text? And that interaction between human and machine will only intensify. We are all well advised to become familiar with it and learn how to use it. Steve Jobs said the computer is a bicycle for the mind; I would call AI a carbon racing bike in a wind tunnel. But we have to learn to ride the bike, to keep our balance and not fly off in the curves. That is part of my job as HR director.
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Christoph Glaser16:11
I imagine your daughter probably bikes a lot better than I do—I'm over 50. How do you make your employees—or yourself—fit? Could you share some best practices from your experience? Are there mechanisms you use to keep your employees at the forefront, so they discover and live these innovations instead of staying stuck in Excel?
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Birgit Bohle17:09
For me it starts with attitude: how do we approach new things and learning? At Telekom we have guiding principles called 'lightlines,' which we redesigned in 2020. One principle I introduced is 'stay curious and grow' because I see it as a core ability in this fast‑paced world: to constantly learn, unlearn, and discover. We also offer many learning programs. We set a goal to have 80,000 people in the company use AI learning offerings by the end of last year—not just be equipped, but actively use them. We achieved that. The offerings range from hackathons to prompt engineering sessions to 'learning from experts' where people teach each other in their spare time. It has to be fun, and it needs to be applied quickly—if you only practice swimming on dry land, you will forget it soon.
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Christoph Glaser18:37
It is hard to learn something with joy if you are afraid of it. Statistics show that 50% of Germans reject AI. I think fear, overload, or the unknown plays a role. Do you ever have fear of what is coming? Should we be afraid?
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Birgit Bohle19:08
Fear usually arises when I don't understand something, when I think something is happening to me without my control. So I can understand those statistics, and I know they are real. What matters is to say, 'Let's try to understand what generative AI is.' That's what we do as a company with learning offerings from beginner to expert level. For myself, because I have a bit of a passion for statistics, I read the papers that describe the transformer model to understand the math and statistics behind it—to realize that in the end an AI doesn't know anything; it generates statistical data. That is my way of demystifying it. Everyone doesn't have to do that, but understanding a bit helps. When I recall my first chess computer at age nine, that was AI too—not generative, but still AI. Even Google Maps has been AI for years. So we have already lived with it quite well for a long time.
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Christoph Glaser20:48
Yet there is still the question: will I eventually be redundant? Especially in an economic climate where jobs are being cut. Looking ahead, in 5 to 10 years perhaps 50% of today's job profiles will no longer exist, but new ones will emerge. If AI could completely replace us, that would imply we are only intelligence—but we are not. We have bodies, we have memories. What are we beyond intelligence? How do we stay relevant?
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Birgit Bohle21:30
That is indeed a philosophical debate. Of course we are much more than intelligence. When we look at the models today, what they never bring is what someone smelled, tasted, saw. We have a body. And even staying with intelligence, it is much more than statistics. Elements like irrationality, deep emotions, responsibility, having a value framework, engaging in critical discourse—these are abilities that AI will not have for a long time. I think it is important for us to understand AI as a tool and a chance, while simultaneously emphasizing the things only we as humans can do: taking responsibility, having values, showing true empathy. We will not become redundant for a very long time.
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Christoph Glaser22:10
Exactly that topic of emotional intelligence is fascinating. Sometimes it seems that in our attempt to be better and faster, we try to out‑robot the robots. We have back‑to‑back meetings, but we are only physically present, mentally absent, emotionally unbalanced. We don't bring our humanity to the table. There was a 2014 study showing that in many cases people with lower cognitive intelligence outperform those with high cognitive intelligence, and 90% of successful leaders have high emotional intelligence. So that is decisive for the future, right?
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Birgit Bohle23:45
Absolutely, 100%. How do we foster it? In the corporate context, we have encapsulated it under the concept of 'caring performance.' It means we demand performance, great customer service, good products, and financial goals. But when we work with people and teams, we communicate clear expectations in a caring way. For example, when giving feedback, it can be very clear and even critical, but I do it with the aim of helping the other person improve. I don't just say 'everything was bad, that's it.' It's about really seeing and supporting the person.
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Christoph Glaser24:24
You notice that when we are under pressure, we sometimes act like robots. How do you manage to cultivate that softness, humanity, joy, and inspiration in yourself?
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Birgit Bohle25:40
I don't know if I always manage it. I try. When I interact with people, as a leader I try to really be present. That often gets lost today—we have our phone lying around and keep checking it. The signal we send is that something else is more important than the conversation we are having. That's the first point. Second, I live the way I feel: we are always whole people, with our private joys, worries, and tasks, as well as professional ones. I keep that in view for myself and for the people I work with. Sometimes it's the small things, like really listening. When someone asks 'how are you' and gets 'fine,' I ask 'how are you really?' and then a different answer comes. That invites a conversation. The topic of presence is fascinating because our attention span is decreasing due to digital work. A meta‑study showed that in 2003, before Facebook, we could average two and a half minutes of focus at a computer; now it's 44 seconds. If two family members have dinner together and a phone is on the table, we show about as much empathy as we would for a stranger. So training that presence muscle is important.
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Christoph Glaser28:53
I personally practice mindfulness through breathing exercises in the morning. Is that something you aspire to? How do you train your presence muscle?
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Birgit Bohle29:52
Yes, during the pandemic I started doing 10–15 minutes of yoga every morning. That was probably the first time I really established a ritual for myself. Those 10–15 minutes are just for me; I focus inward and take that with me into the day. Initially it was mainly because I lacked exercise during lockdown, but I've continued it until today because it's simply the start of my day. Sometimes I pick a random mantra from the session and remember it throughout the day.
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Christoph Glaser30:27
Interesting that you say 15 minutes—I just wrote a book that's about to be published about the '12‑minute method.' Studies show that if you do at least 12 minutes five times a week, you get sustainable effects in training the presence muscle so you can call on it in critical conversations. Great that you do that. That brings me to my next question. Your CV looks very linear from the outside—one success after another. But often a successful career is built on getting up after falling. Were there moments where you really fell flat or something didn't work out, and did that shape you?
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Birgit Bohle31:10
Of course, at several of my professional stations many things did not work out. I remember at Deutsche Bahn there was a serious crisis that was actually in my area of responsibility and had to be resolved. I had a very strong team at that time, and we went through it with 'eyes closed and on we go' and managed it within a few weeks. That was certainly a very impactful situation. Generally, the biggest challenge for me was how to manage it with my family, especially when it became clear that our son, with autism, ADHD, and a learning disability, would need a lot of support for a very long time. There were moments when I asked myself whether I could handle it, whether I had the strength. But at the same time I was always clear that we would do it together and we would manage it. An important lesson I learned later is not to forget myself. We talked about yoga—but apart from being a mother, successful businesswoman, partner, I also need to show up for myself and have time for myself. That was missing for many years. Today I consider it totally important. It seems to me like a meta‑competency that leaders need. You often feel under pressure because everything changes so fast, and the narratives are sometimes negative. But having the courage to take time for yourself to run again with more energy and direction—that is a meta‑competency. I always say leadership begins with self‑leadership: if you cannot lead yourself, it will be hard to lead others.
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Christoph Glaser33:28
You mentioned the crisis at Deutsche Bahn and the situation with your son. Could you reconstruct how you found the strength in such moments? Have you learned to tap into a source of strength, whether internal or external?
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Birgit Bohle34:14
Today I do it much more consciously. Back then I was younger and would now tell myself that I should have known 15 years ago what I know now. So now I am more intentional. Shortly before the pandemic, we happened to find a small house in the middle of the Felts Forest, literally in the middle of nowhere, and bought it. I go there to be outside, in nature, with the forest and birds chirping—it sounds kitschy, but it is. That is where I recharge. I also recharge by doing things that truly bring me joy. For the last year or two I have been alone in Bonn during the week, and I asked myself what to do in the evenings. I started doing ballet again after more than 30 years. I will never become a prima ballerina, and that is not the point—the point is that it brings me joy. So I go once or twice a week and love it.
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Christoph Glaser35:30
I have to think about what I could do too. During the pandemic my nephew showed me a vita parcour in the forest; you run 2–3 km, hearing the birds—it gives me incredible strength. Individual resilience is important, but teams also need resilience. I always notice there are hundreds of books on team effectiveness but almost none on team resilience that convince me. We developed an approach with the TLEX Institute and asked what makes teams truly resilient, especially after COVID when team resources were depleted. How do you experience that today? How resilient are your teams, and how can they contribute to having the strength to go through change processes?
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Birgit Bohle36:46
It has two components: individual and team. For the individual, it is essential to regularly bring the topic of self‑awareness into focus, to take a step back and tap into one's own energy sources. That is absolutely necessary to perform what is expected of us. What concrete offerings do we have? I recently spoke with a colleague who now handles health and wellbeing. He came back from a conversation with our young talents somewhat alarmed because even basic understanding still needs to be established: how important it is to sleep enough, how harmful alcohol is, what bad nutrition does—things we think everyone knows but actually not yet. When we look at a team, do we support each other? Do we have the opportunity to talk when someone is not doing well, to ask if they need help? After COVID we now have the opportunity to be together more again. Interestingly, during COVID we practiced this more consciously in virtual formats through check‑ins. Now we have to re‑establish these kitchen conversations, being physically present but mentally already at the next meeting. We have seen different dimensions: trust, having a common direction, synergy, improvisation, but often what is missing is taking a break together, celebrating. Because the results and pressure can be high; we need to plan together to recharge and enjoy the value of being together.
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Christoph Glaser40:12
I just had my team at my apartment yesterday because we had a change, said a personal farewell, and also inaugurated my apartment a bit. Having those personal moments is important. Many listeners might think, 'Mrs. Bohle, you've achieved so much, great career, wonderful family.' Everyone has potential, but many feel they are not expressing their full potential. What tip would you give someone who feels they can't access their true potential?
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Birgit Bohle40:50
I would always ask myself: what could actually happen if I just try? What's the worst that can happen? If I want to make a professional change and approach someone, the worst outcome could be that the conversation goes badly—but then it's just a conversation that went badly. Or I might take a professional step I regret, and then I look for something else. I have always told myself that I don't need life as a board member, I don't need that money. I could manage with much less and still lead a happy life. Having that freedom—knowing I could also do something else—has always been important to me. And truly believing in yourself, when others believe in you, just think 'maybe they are right' and try it. That goes back to what my mother gave me: the feeling that I am okay, and to believe in myself.
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Christoph Glaser42:10
It's fascinating how you describe that as genuine self‑management. You said 'leadership begins with self‑leadership'—leading yourself by reminding yourself that you could also live without this money or position, thereby preserving inner freedom. That might be the most valuable thing of all and ultimately helps you be successful. You see that in soccer too: the European Championship is on, the pressure is there, but the more you need to win, the less you win. I'm no football expert, but I had the impression that the very first game was played with such joy, with pleasure—that was a great football festival. And now the pressure is growing, but I'm optimistic we'll go further. Bringing that joy to work is something you have cultivated by taking the pressure off. Pressure is there, but approaching it with a positive mindset and saying 'we are fighting to be the best team in the industry, continuously improving and moving Telekom forward'—that motivates me enormously.
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Birgit Bohle43:13
Yes, that is what I feel. And that inner freedom gives you a different impact, also on the decisions you make and how you access your potential.
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Christoph Glaser44:06
We started with the image of the 15‑year‑old Birgit. Let me create another image: suppose you go home and around the corner you suddenly meet the 20‑year‑old Birgit. You have the chance to give your younger self a piece of advice. What would you advise yourself?
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Birgit Bohle44:31
I would actually advise myself to start paying attention to myself earlier. I had two situations, one at McKinsey and one in my early days at Deutsche Bahn, where I didn't treat my own energy carefully. I remember a visit to the dentist—I hate dentists—a four‑hour root canal. I was at McKinsey then, and I thought 'Great, now I have four hours just for myself.' That was the moment I realized I had to change something. I also had a herniated disc relatively early, at 34, despite being athletic. The doctor said, 'You seem to have worked very hard for that.' So I would want to have that awareness earlier, to say 'take it easy.' Sometimes I wish I had a bit of the lightness that my wonderful daughter has—she is a great young woman who has a touch of ease that I perhaps didn't have in my younger years. I often chose doing over being, and then the body eventually shows its limits.
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Christoph Glaser46:10
Beautiful. I'm so glad you found that for yourself. I feel that you have developed that for yourself, and I think it's something for our listeners to take away, because everyone struggles with the decision of how far to go, how important the next project is, and where our health and family become more important. Integrating work and life. Thank you so much for your time.
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Birgit Bohle46:47
Very gladly. I'm also very happy that you were all here. I hope it was interesting—I'm sure it was. Feel free to subscribe to the channel, and thank you. See you soon.