Biocarburants : audition de Sébastien Arbola, directeur général adjoint d'Engie

and green hydrogen to inaugurate a new phase of these works more focused on producers after hearing yesterday the FNSEA and its specialized organizations, we receive today two major groups: Engie, then at 6pm TotalEnergies, we will also hear next week EDF and Air Liquide. Regarding the Engie group, we have the pleasure of receiving Mr. Sébastien Arbola, Deputy CEO in charge of thermal production and energy supply activities, including hydrogen. Mr. Arbola is accompanied by Mr. Thierry Rat-Velle, Director of Parliamentary and Territorial Relations, whom we met last week while visiting the hydrogen refueling station in Saint-Priest, one of the municipalities of the Lyon metropolis, with his hat that day as President. We were thus able to observe on the ground a concrete action carried out by your group in the development of hydrogen mobility as part of an original alliance with the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region, ADEME, the Banque des Territoires, the Michelin group, and Crédit Agricole. I recall that this meeting is recorded and broadcast live on the Senate website, where it can later be consulted on demand. It is also rebroadcast or broadcast live on several social networks: Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Gentlemen, our information mission includes members from the various Senate committees and representing all the political groups that make up the Senate. The development of biofuel, sustainable synthetic fuel, and green hydrogen sectors represents an important challenge to allow France and the European Union to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050, but also for our sovereignty and the competitiveness of our economy. We have so far heard many public actors working on the strategies to implement, whether in France or as we did earlier this week in Brussels. This is obviously fundamental since important negotiations are being finalized at the European Union level. We have also heard think tanks and research organizations. I turn my blank page. It is important for us now to hear the vision of industrialists and particularly energy producers to understand how you are adapting to the emerging European ambition, to appreciate what the development prospects of green hydrogen and synthetic fuels represent in the portfolio of a group like Engie, but also to analyze what may currently hinder the development of these sectors, whether regulatory, technical, or long-term fiscal or financial support. We are well aware that France and the European Union do not evolve in a bubble isolated from the rest of the world and that we must face very ambitious, even aggressive, industrial development strategies from certain states. I am obviously thinking of the Inflation Reduction Act. Green hydrogen and synthetic fuels are expected to contribute significantly to the decarbonization of certain modes of transport, particularly heavy transport. Several people have however highlighted the scarcity of available resources. We will therefore be attentive to your analysis, particularly regarding other uses that could also prove relevant, especially for decarbonizing industry. Our rapporteur, Mr. Vincent Capot-Canelas, who initiated this information mission, has sent you a questionnaire that can serve as a guide, but you are free to structure your introductory remarks. I will then give the floor to our rapporteur and then to all my colleagues so that they can follow up and ask you a number of questions. You can send us written answers later to the questions sent by our rapporteur. Mr. Arbola, I give you the floor.

Thank you, Mr. Arbola, for this introduction, all things considered, with a very interesting and complete development. I will now give the floor to our rapporteur, Mr. Vincent Capot-Canelas.

Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. Deputy CEO. That was a dense presentation with a clear strategy on biomethane and hydrogen, which was quite ambitious and we can be pleased about that. One question though on what we sometimes hear criticizing hydrogen: the criticism about the level of efficiency and the electrical intensity required for production. Some NGOs say it's not necessarily the solution. I'd like to hear your response on these two points. On biomethane, you indicated that first generation is mature, I think there's not much debate there. But what is your real assessment of second generation? I understood it should take off, with 300 terawatt-hours of biomass as the objective? I may have noted too quickly, but it would be good if you could tell us, because there is some debate on second generation's industrial and commercial maturity. What is your point of view? You also mentioned synthetic kerosene with two projects if I heard correctly. We see that companies, we see them receiving... in a timeframe that is not very close yet, but we see companies sometimes signing contracts a bit everywhere. So this mission is also here to find solutions for decarbonization. I specify that it's not only transport decarbonization, our scope also includes industry. But we see this search for solutions and we hope that France does not exchange one dependency for another, but is capable of having a sovereign industry. So everything you do interests us from that point of view. But will you be able to supply the needs of aviation if that option is retained? Regarding kerosene. And finally, just a word, I will give the floor to colleagues. I liked your conclusion: you told us that France started before everyone else and is still in the pack with Europe, something.

But ultimately the United States has a clearer, more straightforward strategy. So the question is: what would you like France and the European Union to do to make all this simpler, clearer, and more effective?

Thank you for your presentation. I see strong ambitions, which are welcome. My question is about sustainability. On biomethane, you mention 140 TWh of first-generation and 80 of second-generation. We see tensions on biomass, like wood waste used for heat networks and biofuels. Everyone uses the same finite resources. Which countries have surpluses? For hydrogen, countries with solar potential (Spain, Portugal, North Africa) raise sovereignty issues. On hydrogen storage: you imply it will be reserved for specific needs, but could it be used for storage given renewable fluctuations? On methanization, there is a value-sharing issue. Are farmers becoming mere biomass suppliers? How do you see value sharing?

Martine, you can ask questions. Who else? To respect the schedule, no? Okay then, Martine.

Thank you very much. I am very happy to see your optimism about hydrogen, as we often hear negative views. I confirm that industrialists in Savoie, a department with much steel industry, are waiting for green hydrogen. Some are ready to implement local solutions if green hydrogen does not arrive fast enough. They need precise certification of the green origin to qualify their production. Can you detail this? Also on networks: you mentioned salt caverns, but what about the last kilometers? When will they be financed? Industries like Tokai Kobeix Carbon Savoie urgently need this gas to produce electric batteries. Finally, on safety: what studies have you conducted on safety levels for hydrogen use?

Thank you Mr. President. Earlier you addressed the question of hydrogen and storage. We understood you are working on salt caverns. Can you tell us more, without revealing confidential information? What can they bring as a solution? On success conditions: certificates, guarantees of origin, exit prices. Can you detail what needs improvement? On the IRA: many investors see an opportunity there. Are you shifting investments? How can Europe catch up? On carbon capture for synthetic fuels: industrialists need regulatory visibility in Europe. What do you think?

Just one last point on employment and skills. Do you have specific needs? Is this an area to focus on? Do you have any suggestions?

Well gentlemen, Mr. Sébastien Arbola, thank you for your time and for sharing your insights. And to Mr. Thierry Riven, looking forward to seeing you in Lyon, and possibly next stop Grenoble or Dijon. Thank you.