Future Group saw a lot of highs and lows. How did you navigate failure together? Was that tricky, was it painful? We have not discussed this subject with them. It was difficult in the first six months, quite difficult, but the event around it overpowered me and took me in. We actually felt free and liberated in one way; he gave us that ability to be liberated and say, 'Now what do you want?' There is no label, no attachment. Now how do you want to rebuild life? Indian society is much more hypocritical than any other society. Maybe I was rebelling against the family; I was not a conformist. I think we had no imagination about the difference between a boy and a girl. It was not about business; it's about how you treat them. I also think we've been brought up in a very unconventional way. He gave me a credit card when I was 15. I don't think the question of boy or girl ever really existed. India is very special in making mistakes; we make unique mistakes. I think anybody who is successful gets too much credit, including me. The media spoils you, the fame spoils you. India is totally spoiled.
So we've heard a lot about Kishore Biyani's futuristic approach, his vision, his sharp sense in entrepreneurship. But today we're here to talk about something that I believe is his biggest success story, and I truly believe it's not all the things I mentioned before, but it's the one he's built at home with his daughters. Hello and welcome to the Masoom Minawala Show. Today I'm joined by a family that has redefined Indian retail and entrepreneurship: Kishore Biyani, the father of Indian retail, and I have with him his two daughters, Ashni and An Biyani, that now stand at the threshold of shaping the next chapter of India's evolving retail landscape. We've heard a lot about your futuristic vision, your leadership, your incredible stride, but today we're here to talk about what I personally believe is your biggest success story: it's the one at home, the one that you've built out with your two daughters. So my first question is that the average Indian father's ambition for their daughter is marriage, but your ambition has been very, very different. I want to ask you where this is coming from and what the thought is behind this.
I come from a traditional Marwari family in Mumbai. I was probably third generation in Mumbai, a Mumbaikar grown up in Napean Sea Road, Malabar Hill. Maybe I was a rebel in the family; I was not conformist in any way. When Ashni was born, I think we had no imagination about the difference between a boy and a girl. Maybe I don't know why, but for us, the boy and girl didn't matter at that time. When An was born also, I don't think anybody told us about having a male child or something. At least to me, nobody told me. We never imagined or thought about it. Since we were asking the question, there is an answer to this, but I do remember hearing murmurs about a daughter being the heir to him. There were a lot more questions about it rather than conversations, more like rumors and gossip rather than something said upfront.
And is this coming from the thought that it's usually the sons that take over the Indian family business?
It was not about business; it's about their upbringing, how you treat them, how they are brought up. So the questioning was right there.
I also think that we've been brought up in a very unconventional way. I don't think girls in the country today are brought up the way we have been brought up. He gave me a credit card when I was 15. I remember I was going on a trip to Europe with my friends, and all my friends' parents looked at him and said, 'You gave your daughter a credit card at 15? Don't you think she'll run away or do something with the card?' He was like, 'No, no, she won't spend it. I'm very confident about it.' I think when it comes to us, he never really thought about boy or girl. He pushed boundaries in every aspect of bringing us up without thinking about gender.
But you come from a Marwari traditional family. The beta syndrome never kicked in?
Zero. Surprisingly, since you're asking, it's coming, but we have never gone through that internal discussion in my personal life. It's been so natural for us. Boy, girl, how does it matter? Children are children. Girls are maybe a little different, but I don't have the experience of boys. I don't have anybody for gadgets or cars; I'm more for the softer things: music, lyrics, literature. I love gossip. Men love to gossip, but they love to gossip with a woman.
I feel like it's unique to have a set of parents like this because not only him, I think my mother never saw gender either. She said they'll do exactly what they want to do. It's not about business or any of the other choices. They'll do what they want to do and what they deserve to do in the rightful way. In that sense, he's very different as a parent, and so is my mother. I think he's not as alpha male as people who are so-called successful are. He doesn't portray the alphaness even if there is; he channels it differently. There is balance, which is important. Maybe we skewed it. I'm taking the credit of the three women skewing it. I don't think we've ever discussed cars or bikes. He's had to learn how to deal with it. This is his comfort.
So I know your daughters credit you for their self-belief.
A part of this conversation and this idea also comes from the fact that my father is like this. He's not even an equalist; he's an absolute feminist. He has supported me, he has been my rock. In terms of work, for me being brave enough or courageous enough to take risks, to start something new, to constantly take that leap of faith again and again in life because we have to keep reinventing. I think a lot of it comes because he's got my back.
But what do you think you've done differently? I'm sure you look at your peer group and you see that this is not something that you're seeing everywhere. There is a differentiating factor here.
I don't know. I don't look at it that way, to be very honest. I know a lot of people who have two daughters, a lot of people who have two sons, a lot of people who have a son and a daughter. Indian society is constructed in a particular way, but that construct was created a long time back, and there's no reason to follow that construct. In today's world, a child is a child. That's the way you look at it: how they are brought up, what are their belief systems, what they want to pursue in life, how can they be happy. I think our role as a parent is to make their life happier than what they could expect or what we can do for them. That's been the journey for us. It's all about what they can do. I believe a boy and a girl, there's not much of a difference, but a girl has more qualities than a man in a way. They can look at the finer aspects much better, life adjustment and flexibility probably much better than men. They can think and imagine something which a man can't imagine. So how do you use the stronger points of a woman? Men and women are not equal in their way; men have some qualities, women have some qualities. For me at that time, it was the education for them, what they want to pursue, what they want to do in life. You can design and direct it, but you can't own that. That's what we did. We are a modern, disjointed family in a way. We have our differences, our dissent, our fights, and we enjoy that. Ash will always say we'll fight. She once was talking to her daughter that we are like a family; we'll just fight, but within maybe next 30 seconds we'll adjust and close that subject. I don't think we keep anything within us as a family. If we have any feeling towards each other, it has to be uttered there and then. Sometimes we forget that there are people in the room as well, so we go up to that extent, but then the next moment we let it go. Unconditionality is the biggest gift that children can receive.
You think people have emulated the kind of upbringing you have tried to give to your daughters?
A lot of people. A lot of my friends have openly told me. One of my friends who has two boys, in fact, he said, 'I love to develop a similar relationship with my children as you have developed with your daughters, although they are sons.' He has done much better than me. It's quite fascinating. A lot of people get inspired because our relationship has been very different. We don't have an age difference relationship, which is key to any relationship. We don't have a generation gap. We are open about every subject, we debate and discuss everything. We are very honest and transparent. We don't have pretenses. Indian society is much more hypocritical than any other society, and the Marwari community is much more in that sense. We are unique; our hypocrisy levels are much lower. I'll give you an example. Though we are as open with each other as we are and we spend a lot of time together, much to the dislike of a lot of people around us, for example, we don't hug. We're not a family that hugs. We're not a family that will necessarily touch each other's feet. We don't say 'I love you' very rarely. We only say it to my daughter now, to Ashni's daughter. We keep telling my mom, 'Where was all this love when we were growing up?' because we don't remember this level of affection. But we're actually not that overtly affectionate with each other. My first call in the morning is to him, or he calls me. His first question is, 'Did you sleep well?' I think our love language is very different.
That's adorable. I also think another thing they did for us as children was they never treated us as children. They exposed us to anybody and everybody who was coming home, who they were meeting. I think we spent a lot of time with them when we were young, whether it was on shop floors, when he was traveling, when people came home for dinner for work. It never really felt like work-life balance. I don't think I've spoken to so many times on the phone. I said, 'I'm not feeling well but I'm going to work,' and he's like, 'Why? Stay at home.' At the same time, we work on Sundays. For us, we don't think of it as 'this is me time, this is family time, this is work time.' It's all very fluid.
That's beautiful. So if I had to simplify it, you'd say involve the next generation more in the reality of life versus actually... I mean, that's what you're saying, that you were completely involved, you went on the shop floor, you were part of every conversation that was inherently in their life already.
Yeah. If I look at my own childhood and the way I would parent my daughter, it comes from similar belief systems. For example, when we were in school, everyone got pocket money. Someone asked you, 'What's your pocket money?' and you're like, 'What is pocket money?' So I go back home and I'm like, 'So what's my pocket money? How much am I allowed to spend?' He's like, 'Why do you need pocket money? Spend how much you want.' I said, 'How does that work?' He said, 'If you learn how to spend, you will learn how to earn.' So it was a very counterintuitive way of teaching someone how to earn by teaching them how to spend. You set your own guardrails, you decide what's right and wrong.
I think this is a very important thing. I personally have followed up on the subject of pocket money. I never had pocket money. I never understood what is pocket money. We never had the concept of giving money or having accounts with anyone. No accounts are done till date with anybody around us, the immediate family or the people who support us. I believe it is building the trust factor. The first trust factor gets built when you tell them to do whatever they want to do in life. I have seen that they have never spent money ever, which is unbelievably surprising. They are not spenders in any way. When I look at Ashni's daughter now, she understands how much she can spend automatically. Nobody has ever told us. So what is the thought behind it? Trust. Beget trust. It is so simple. The first day you start trusting your children, you will get trust from them. They will believe in you in whatever you do, and they'll be honest with you. As a family, we never tell lies to each other, never ever. My condition to them when they were going out at night was only one thing: 'Tell us whenever you come back.' It was never about when you should come back. Trust is the first factor. Indian society is not built so much on parents trusting their children.
I also think parents like to control children, and they derive power from feeling like you're the older one, we are responsible, we are taking care of you. The age hierarchy in our society has been quite there. If you're of a senior age, you know life much better, and there needs to be respect that elders command. But I think there is respect because of trust. Sometimes respect creates generation gap. When people are so interested in gaining respect, when you're having a conversation like this, mutual respect is natural. It can't be derived or pushed upon somebody. We have been very natural. I don't think we had any pretenses about anything.
We have a little surprise for you. You like surprises? No, he doesn't like it. I also don't like surprises. Thank you so much for taking out the time to be here and doing this. How would you define him as a father?
The initial years, the first 15 years, I think they needed more the motherly love. He was a phone call away when they were sick or when they were anything. He would like to play with them, would like to do all types of things, but not like hands-on fathers today where the fathers are so involved in doing every single thing. That was not in our times. But after 15 years, when they need a guideline to grow up as individuals, I think there he played a major role in their lives. For them growing up, for work, businesses, to look at life in different lenses, to have an overall view of life, he has shaped them. The average Indian father's ambition for their daughter is marriage, but Kishore's ambition for his daughters has been that they can pursue their dreams, and that is what he has propelled.
But that was my dream. That was my vision. The joined work, it was a full man's organization. She was the first daughter to enter into the business. She used to come many times crying, saying, 'This happened with me, that happened with me.' I said, 'The day you cry, people will think you are weak. You have to be headstrong and go ahead. You should not cry. If you are right, put your foot down. Do not think what other people are thinking.' I thought everybody in the family also must have thought she would get married and leave at some point. She had a very supportive family, whether it was mother-in-law, husband; they all supported her, and she went through the journey very easily. Then she had a child. I told her when she was in the hospital, 'Mentally you have to get ready to work. Even if you're not doing work, make sure that you are working. Work for half an hour, whether it's on the phone or you can call people and do it. Start working immediately. If you leave your friends here, it will be very difficult to pick it up again.'
And where was that coming from, Auntie? How did you have that thought?
Because I thought when I got married at 20, I was very good for my age at that point of time. But once you leave that journey and you start getting into the household affairs, you never find a time to get out of it, and you are too scared to face the world later. The world is changing at a very rapid pace. I feel when we come out of school, the boys and girls are at equal level. Boys were given chances to work, so they kept on excelling. Everybody has to have something in them to go wherever Kishore has reached. But otherwise, the men generally work; the women don't work in our generation much because they never made it a bread and butter. To make work your thing, you have to think of it as a bread and butter. If you think of it as a time pass, it can never become that. It should not be an option. I had a dream that the girls should always work, and Kishore supported it. These both girls are very hardworking; they want to achieve something. They are a little special type of children. Even after getting chances, maybe you may not reach where they are. They have their vision very clear in their mind. When they were small, they would go to the stores with him. They knew what they were talking, what they were seeing, what they were feeling, and they could understand how to reach there. Ashni studied design, so she had her own way to study the society, culture, the depth of it. She does very deep study. An looks into things very differently and has her own way to do things, but she is more perfect with her own small things, whether it is design or clothes. She is too much sucked into what is happening today. Ashni studies the demographics of India more properly and understands the market size.
Auntie, what makes you the most proud of both your daughters?
I do not look into proud or anything. I feel everybody has a journey, and we should all do it the way the best thought for us. We should try to get the maximum we can get. Why should we, just because we are women, not work? That was not my thought.
She was a firecracker on her own. There's something you wanted to say while the video was playing. I don't remember now, but I have to say that in some sense, she is far more determined for us than he was for us. He was obviously and clearly very meritocratic, saying, 'If you figure it out, you figure it out.' He was not making favors for us. But she had the determination to say, 'Go fight it out, go do what you have to do.' So it came from a very different place. You got strength from her of a very different kind.
I also remember when I came back from college and I was taking my own sweet time to find my place and get into work. She one day told me, 'If you fool around anymore, I'm going to tell Dad to get you married. If you don't want to get married, you better work. Going for these lunches and coffees is not my idea of having a sense of purpose. So you work or you get married, but you're not sitting around and whiling away your time.' She was very clear. I remember on day 33, I went back to work after I delivered my baby, and I had a full six-hour day. You never look back. At the same time, she never told us, 'Oh, you don't take care of the house.' We're not a binary family. We've never been raised to say, 'You only work, and because you work, it's your excuse to not do this well.' She always told us, 'You don't get a badge of honor because you work.' Another thing we're not allowed to say is 'we're tired.' If you say we're tired, they both take it so personally, like, 'You're so young, what do you get tired with?' We should all have good energy levels.
That fitness also came from a particular learning which I had: neuro-linguistic programming. If you start using negative words, you will become negative. Being tired is an excuse for multiple things. Why should one be tired? We don't use the word 'not' or any negative words. We don't allow them to encourage that. In our business, we never said 'business is bad.' We will say 'business is a little low today.' It means the same, but the words change. His favorite word is 'not the best.' So today it's 'not the best.' That is to use NLP to program oneself not to think negatively. What does it do for us? A lot. If you don't think negatively, all positive thoughts. A normal human being out of ten thoughts, seven have negative connotation. It's hot today, the sun is out, it's raining. You can find so many negative things around you. But it's not to look at that; be positive in life.
So this is a conscious shift you made. But for you guys, does it come subconsciously now?
Yeah, sort of. We've been trained in it. We're not as good at it as he is, but he keeps pointing it out. I think we need to hang out more. We are very similar people. We know how to argue.
So you spoke about the evolution of the Indian woman. Can you tell us about that a little bit?
I think the role of woman in society in India, if you look at the evolution of Indian woman, India has been a very role-based society. The woman, when she is a daughter, has a role to play; when she becomes a wife, she has a role to play; when she becomes a mother, she has a role to play. Her life is all about playing a role, which is very different than any part of the world. That evolution has not changed. Can you compare that to a different society? There has been evolution in every society of a woman, from where they began to where they are now. Things have changed a lot. Women are now playing an equal role in societies. In India, we talk about equality, but it's still not there. Opportunity is still not equal. It's a male-driven society, very patriarchal, very masculine, very alpha male. Women are not treated the best by men in this country yet.
I feel that the ownership of that lies on women to shackle out, to have dreams, to have goals, to have ambitions. But we are talking about much broader society.
It will take time. India has enough role models if you look at our mythological stories about women. There are enough role models, but there are also stories where she is subjected and she believes in patience and resurrects her husband. I think there has to be a narrative. Look at language today. Why is femininity looked at as unpowerful or non-powerful? There is work that we as women need to do around it. Men are not going to come and do that work for us.
I think there has to be a narrative. Look at language today. Why is femininity looked at as unpowerful? There is work that we as women need to do around it. Men are not going to come and do that work for us. The ownership lies on us. Even a lot of abusive language is very derogatory to females. Why the B word, for example? It's in our hands to craft our own narrative and create new role models.
Absolutely. Do you think women want to do that? I don't think women support women. I actually think fundamentally women don't support women. We had a huge conversation on Saturday where we spoke about the evolution of a man and what role women will play in raising the future generation, the future men of tomorrow. How are you going to raise your sons to be different? I actually feel like we talk about equality, but today even when people have a son and a daughter, they don't treat the two equally. I also don't think women support other women. I was told a few years ago, 'Now you're married, you're looking at restarting your career. Why are you doing it? You can sit at home. Why do you stretch yourself so much? Why do you travel? You don't take care of your health.' I've been told that so many times.
I have been told that. And what do you think? What kind of support would you have liked? What does support mean to you?
I think just like what my father and mother do for me. So many times, 'Did you sleep well? If you're not well, take a later flight.' Small gestures. My husband tells me to take a later flight. When I come back home, my mother-in-law will ask if she can make something special for me. Someone will look out for you. Both of us work together; we look out for each other. We coordinate our timings. Support is not rocket science. It's not that if you're working, your family doesn't come first. So many times I tell him I'm stressed, and he tells me, 'What's there? It will all happen. You'll manage.'
Do you think when they share something with you, do you have an opinion?
I would have an opinion, but I'll discuss my opinion and we can debate it. We have no issue.
How do you still go back to him and share for the second and third time? Because sometimes when you share something, parents tend to get into a rant.
I'll tell you this. I was dating somebody a few years ago. The writing was clear on the wall. My parents had come to the conclusion that I should end it and move on. But my father gave me an entire month to debate it with him, to discuss it with him. He gave me my space and time to come to that conclusion myself. He never told me, 'I don't think this is right for you.' He never told me, 'You should not do this.' He never told me, 'I won't support you if you do this.' The only thing he told me once was that there's a credit-debit system that every human being has with each other, and maybe his credit with me was far larger for me to actually take. He gave me time for me to see things in my own way. He was there when I wanted to debate it with him.
And what was going through your mind?
I think it's giving a direction in life. Our job is to give direction and show the path if required. We are not here to sermonize. Luckily, maybe they think I sermonize them, but I think life is all about enjoying life and learning about it and sharing that. That's what we have done in our journey. I learned from them. I've learned to be younger. I love to compete with them. I think I'm younger than them in terms of thoughts. They keep debating with me, and I love that. I learn something from them every day. We share notes: what I did yesterday, what was my learning, what is my understanding of that human being. We study a lot of human behavior. Whenever we meet, we love to decode them, dissect them, try to understand their belief system.
Totally. Can I be invited? We'll record it and keep it there. We love to understand what life is. Life is all about a series of events. In a day, you meet so many people, do so much work. Everything can be enjoyed, whether it's a negative thing or a positive thing. That's what life has been interesting so far. So the Future Group saw a lot of highs and lows, and it's all low as well. How did you navigate failure together? Was that tricky? Was it painful? And what were the roles you all played for each other in that?
I think we have not discussed this subject ever with them as such. I had my own way of dealing with it. It was difficult in the first six months, quite difficult. I came across stoicism, and it made me look at life differently. Two sayings: think of the worst, and something less worst will happen, so you'll feel good about it. Second, whatever is in your control, think about it; leave aside the rest. I made some principles at that point: I will look at life from a different lens, I will let the past be buried and not think about it. Only when you have to deal with it, just think about it at that point of time. Let's create a new world. We had enough intellectual capital with us. I was always confident about making it or being successful. I had learned about destruction long time back. I made a movie 18-20 years ago that didn't do well, so I wrote to myself: never get attached to whatever you create. When we sold Pantaloons long time back, I had no emotions left. So when this was getting destroyed, the emotions didn't overpower me, but the event around it overpowered me and took me in totally. All the family was looking upon me because they always believed I would solve everything. The idea was not to involve anybody. I dealt with it alone. Nobody was involved in anything that was happening on the destruction part. I still continue to deal with it alone. I don't want anybody else to come in because it is my problem.
But as daughters, because I'm a daughter myself, when something like this happens, you feel that ownership and accountability to intervene and share the load, that mental pressure or stress. How is it for you guys? How did you navigate that?
No, I think it was made quite clear that our role is to be around and restart. Our role was not to get enveloped in the past. We used to have more philosophical conversations about it. There's a song. We actually felt free and liberated in one way. He gave us that ability to be liberated and say, 'Now what do you want to do? There is no label, no attachment. How do you want to rebuild life?' It was a point of deep introspection as to what we want to do next. Books give you different kind of strength, meeting the right people, the right friends. For me, it was understanding the Bhagavad Gita. I feel like you can't destroy a man's spirit. You can take everything away, but how do you take away a man's spirit? He was 50% of the time thinking with us on what's new and happening in the consumer world. What do we know about the digital-first consumer? Consumers today have changed. He kept saying, 'Good, there is destruction. We have to create a fresh.' It made us look at it from the lens of not what you have lost but what you have gained. That helped us tremendously. Our conversations were all around the digital-first customer: how is this customer now behaving? What can we do with them in this category, this space? Media is disrupted completely. COVID has changed behavior. Where do we stand in the midst of all of this? That is very energizing because you're not sitting and lamenting about what has happened to you, but rather what you can do now. He showed us the way to say, 'Next, what's next?'
No, I also think there was, you know, he allowed us to not have any baggage. He said, 'Okay, think about 10 ideas.' I remember we used to brainstorm, build our own business plans. I don't think he gave us time to really be free. He keeps meeting people, he keeps remaining relevant. He's more relevant than us sometimes. My constant fear is, 'Oh my God, how will we continue to be as relevant as him?' He never stopped that. Even today, he meets five new people a week, 10 new entrepreneurs a week. He loves it. He never stood back and lamented the loss. He never raised us to think about the past. He doesn't like to over-discuss a topic. Those avenues to sit together and discuss or lament what went down, we never ended up doing it. Another way of overcoming that was doing much more than what you were doing earlier on every account: more events, more friendships, more meeting people. That's the only way to break the hole. It was actually nice to create new bonds, new relationships, shake yourself out of it. I think I've been very fortunate that when you go through this destruction, the first thing that comes to your mind is that the people who are your friends won't be friends anymore. But I was surprised. Life gave me much more than I could have expected. I thought this person might not support, but they were the first one to support. I got random support from a family who just came down and...
The children's responsibility is mine, and they funded a business. So many people came to support, which was the most heartening thing. When you find so many people to help you, there's nothing bigger than that.
Did you ever feel like, 'I wish my daughters didn't have to see this'?
Not at all. I believe they've gone through it, and I think they should have gone deeper into it. You try to protect your children, but they were bystanders watching this happen. They must have gone through their own understanding and emotions. Seeing something wither away in front of your eyes is very difficult, but we learn to deal with it.
Yeah, but you also learn how impermanent life is. I don't agree that it's difficult; I think there's also joy in struggle. He always told us that, so you have to learn to accept and move on.
Absolutely. But you know, before we started rolling, I was telling you about my e-commerce venture. When I had to shut that down, I took it as a huge failure. It was not easy to move on.
You should have come to us that time!
I know, I should have. I believe without the highs and lows, life is a series of events. Enjoy every event. Destruction is part of creation. Without destruction, there is no creation. They would never have gone into the new age digital business had the destruction not happened. Life always gives you another chance.
What do you say to an entrepreneur that is failing right now? A lot of young people are watching, and this is happening often, especially in the space I've been speaking about. Smaller businesses that haven't been able to scale and are feeling that sense of failure. What do they do?
Failure is going to be part of whatever you do. Your success rates will keep changing. One has to enjoy the smaller events and small wins. When the destruction happened, the first thing I told them was: don't ever imagine to build big businesses. Build small businesses and enjoy that small is beautiful. We had seen a 50,000 crore business; you can't ever build that again. Why can't we enjoy building small, good, efficient, cash flow, purposive businesses? We didn't want to do the same thing. Life has moved on.
Stress never comes home; stress is always there. Home and work are seamless for us. My stress is seen by everybody because I'm very transparent. Once Ashni came in and said, 'Nanu, today something has not gone right in the office.' They can read through it. She is innocent enough to tell me everything. When I'm having an important stressful meeting, she'll go and sit in the middle. Suddenly the energy in the room changes.
So who's your favorite? Ashni? An?
I don't have a favorite. But when she was born, she was the first one after four or five years. Ashni has her own qualities. I can intellectually spar with her a lot, but my longer intellectual discussions are with An. She likes to understand a subject and goes deeper into it, but she's very edgy and patient.
Who fights with you more?
I think both of them. It's a huge challenge when somebody sees us fighting; they must believe these children have no respect for parents.
I've heard that you three are a wolf pack. That's what reached my ears in my version of gossip.
