Chief Corporate Officer, British American Tobacco p.l.c.
Can Pakistan become Smoke-Free? - Kingsley Wheaton - BAT - #TPE 429
The Chief Corporate Officer at BAT, Kingsley Wheaton, joins us on The Pakistan Experience for an open and honest conversation about smoking, smokeless products and to answer the question, 'Can Pakistan become Smoke-Free?'
Kingsley Wheaton is the Chief Corporate Officer at BAT. He describes himself in his own words as, "I’m married and have three children, and my main passions are spending time with my family and cooking – my ambition is to enter MasterChef one day, it would be an amazing challenge. I am also a big rugby fan; my playing days are over, but I was proud to captain my university’s...
Transcript (39 segments)
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Host0:00
Hello asalam alikum, welcome to another episode of the Pakistan experience. This one's special because I'm in Islamabad and Kingsley Wheaton is here. He's been part of BAT management since 2012, became chief growth and strategy officer in 2023, and chief corporate officer in 2024. How are you doing, sir?
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Kingsley Wheaton0:28
I'm very well, and it's lovely to be with you today.
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Host0:30
I was checking your CV – you've worked in Africa, the Middle East, Europe. So the obvious first question: why is Pakistani food the best?
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Kingsley Wheaton0:42
We had a fantastic dinner last night. I said it was the best meal I've had all year.
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Host0:52
Did you run into any English friends? Was Joe Root there?
I've heard you run a cricket club as well.
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Kingsley Wheaton1:22
Yes, we started the Gray Nickels – not spelled like the cricket brand, it's G-Y and N-C-K. We play four or five games a year, not very good, but it brings us together. We have one tour a year to the Cotswolds. It inspires our love of cricket.
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Host2:22
Let's move to less controversial stuff: tobacco. I'm not an advocate for smoking. BAT is controversial. The Omni report talks about 'A Better Tomorrow'. Why should we believe it's not just corporate lingo?
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Kingsley Wheaton2:51
I've been at BAT nearly 30 years. For half of that I felt proud because I believe in informed adults' right to choose. But the last 10–12 years have been different. The search for safer ways to enjoy tobacco and nicotine is not new. Now technology has caught up. We innovate through nicotine pouches, vaping, heated tobacco. Today 17.5% of revenues are smokeless, about 3.3 billion pounds. The relative risk for alternatives is 95–99% less emissions than burning tobacco.
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Host5:45
The report is quite open about risks. A billion smokers, millions of deaths. Is BAT owning up to the risks and trying to mitigate them?
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Kingsley Wheaton6:22
Yes. There are 1.3 billion smokers worldwide. The old approach was 'quit or die', but the projected number of smokers to 2050 was flat. We want to transform. Sweden is the first country to go smoke‑free – under 5% smoking rate. They have the lowest lung cancer rates in Europe. If projected across Europe, 3.5 million premature deaths could be saved.
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Host8:21
Sweden is ahead in beating cancer by 2040. What can Pakistan learn from that?
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Kingsley Wheaton8:52
I'm very excited about Pakistan. PTC is an outstanding business, part of BAT for 80 years. Nearly 45% of adult males use nicotine – a high smoking rate. We launched Velo nicotine pouches in 2019, invested $40 million in the Jhelum factory, and now export modern oral to Japan and France. We have half a million users in Pakistan. The government has been hugely supportive. Pakistan is the North Star for developing markets transformation.
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Host11:06
You use the term 'modern oral'. Are the products you make better than the traditional oral alternatives used for centuries in Pakistan?
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Kingsley Wheaton11:25
Yes. Nicotine pouches have no tobacco – just nicotine and a substrate. Compared to traditional oral products like gutka or pan, or smoking, the relative risk is very different. We also have standards to ensure underage people don't consume them.
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Host12:13
How do you prevent underage use in a country like Pakistan where enforcement is weak? The ads look cool with music and celebrities.
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Kingsley Wheaton12:38
That's a brilliant question. We take responsible marketing seriously. We have responsible marketing standards – adult-only access is key. But enforcement is critical. 54% of Pakistan's cigarette market is illicit. Would you rather have transformation in the hands of a responsible global player or unregulated markets? We need stepped-up enforcement to make regulation deliver its desired outcome.
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Host14:41
You mentioned being a libertarian. I also associate with that, but I find myself a fan of regulation. The illicit cigarette industry costs Pakistan a billion dollars annually in tax revenue. Even if we halve it, that's $500 million. So besides the financial side, responsible leadership matters. Can we see a world where BAT sells its last cigarette? Omni says you want 50% of revenue from smokeless by 2035.
It's interesting you said that. But just before we come to that, I believe the government introduced a track and trace system spending 100–200 million. Are there measures from elsewhere that Pakistan can take to ensure tax collection?
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Kingsley Wheaton17:20
Smart regulation is evidence-based, consultative, delivers policy aims, and doesn't backfire. Track and trace is one solution, but there must be consequences – enforcement to make it work. We ask that those systems are used visibly to enforce against illegal duty non-paid products.
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Host18:30
It seems counterintuitive for a tobacco company to dream of selling its last cigarette. Why not just stop selling cigarettes tomorrow if the data supports it?
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Kingsley Wheaton18:57
It's a great question. The answer is practical, financial, commercial. We're listed on the London Stock Exchange, market cap about 80 billion pounds, with shareholders. We can't just switch off 82.5% of revenue. More importantly, that would assume solving a demand-side problem with a supply-side solution. In South Africa, during COVID, cigarette sales were banned for five months, but consumption didn't drop because illegal supply took over. It's more complicated than a binary choice.
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Host23:05
That's the prohibition argument – like alcohol in America. No country has banned cigarettes. If you follow that, are you discharging your duty by not allowing safer alternatives? It would be paradoxical if cigarettes are easier to buy than vapes or pouches.
There's pushback on the tobacco‑free world. Specifically, is the idea to get rid of combustible tobacco altogether?
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Kingsley Wheaton24:01
We'll play our part, but it also relies on other industry peers, governments, and consumers. When I started the Next Generation Products journey in 2015, revenue was zero. Now the products are order-of-magnitude better – like mobile phones evolving. We have to close the 'compromise bridge' so that alternatives are as satisfying as smoking. Innovations are accelerating.
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Host26:24
I'm a fan of Diet Coke. If research found the sweeteners were worse, I'd hope Coke would bury that research. Omni talks about 56 peer-reviewed articles from 50+ scientists on your payroll. Why should I believe them?
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Kingsley Wheaton26:56
That's a great question. The key is peer review – not just BAT's own science. Omni cites over 250 peer-reviewed journals of our own science plus nearly 650 independent peer-reviewed papers. We don't include science that isn't peer-reviewed. The document is not an overt selling tool; it's a manifesto for tobacco transformation. In 2025, transparency is the courageous way. Put the facts out there and let society decide.
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Host28:59
I was surprised to read Omni. But as a skeptic, are you claiming that you're open to anyone questioning your claims?
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Kingsley Wheaton29:27
Absolutely. We have an email address – [email protected] – and we welcome inquiries. Our scientific research director, Dr James Murphy, is in Pakistan. We don't claim a monopoly on the truth. The skepticism often comes from the erroneous belief that nicotine is a carcinogen. Omni is a dynamic platform that will evolve.
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Host31:00
How can a skeptical consumer independently verify these claims?
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Kingsley Wheaton31:16
You can wait 25–30 years for epidemiological evidence – Sweden's results are real. Or you can buy into the weight‑of‑evidence argument. Do we want to wait to save 3.5 million lives in Europe? The 'quit or die' philosophy is precautionary; tobacco harm reduction is optimistic. When you remove combustion, you go from 7,000 emissions to tens – a manifestly different level.
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Host33:22
I hope people watch this podcast. So for public messaging: you're arguing these alternatives are better. Are we going to see that in advertising?
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Kingsley Wheaton34:10
Yes, you already do, and you'll see more. We're active on LinkedIn pushing Omni messaging. Through our brands, we do harm reduction messaging like '95% less toxicants' in many markets. It's not always legally allowable; regulatory fragmentation means it depends on jurisdiction. We have to be 110% sure of what we say. We want to do more, but we take responsibility seriously.
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Host37:08
We've praised Pakistan a lot. Are there any unique challenges you face here?
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Kingsley Wheaton37:23
The government has been hugely supportive – they helped us import, invest $40 million, and set the right regulatory and fiscal framework. Where we'd love more support is in closing down illicit trade – the billion‑dollar loss. Also, we need similar regulatory clarity for vapor products to prevent an illegal market. Vapes come in from China; in the US, 60–70% of the vape market is illicit. We'd love to responsibly market our vape brand Vuse here if the environment allows.
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Host39:27
We started talking about dads of cricket. You're a dad. If your child smoked, how would you feel?
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Kingsley Wheaton39:43
I have three children: Fletcher nearly 17, Ellie 11, Sasha 8. My advice is: don't smoke, don't use nicotine products – that's first choice. But if you're tempted to experiment, I would much rather you used alternative smokeless products than smoke. Avoid combustion and the 7,000 emissions.
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Host40:52
You're consistent with your messaging. I'm skeptical of the corporate world and not an advocate of smoking, but this conversation taught me a lot. Thank you so much, Kingsley.
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Kingsley Wheaton41:29
Thank you, Shahzad. I really enjoyed it. Take care, bye.