President & Chief Executive Officer, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V.)
Keynote Interview with Marjan Rintel, CEO of KLM (World Aviation Festival 2024)
Keynote Interview with Marjan Rintel, CEO, KLM: How to run a great airline for customers, while decreasing our environmental footprint and accelerating digitalization.
Interviewed by Ben Thompson, Presenter, BBC.
About Marjan Rintel
Marjan Rintel, CEO of KLM, has been discussing the airline's sustainability strategy, financial stability, and regulatory challenges. In June 2025, she stated that KLM is investing billions in a new fleet, buying 16% sustainable aviation fuel (SAF), and using AI to reduce catering waste by 60%. She said the industry needs to work with governments and the EU to increase SAF supply at reasonable prices. In November 2024, she said KLM is focusing on operational and financial health to enable continued investment, and that the airline expects new Airbus 321 aircraft to contribute to sustainability and noise reduction targets. Rintel has also addressed potential political and legal risks. In January 2025, she expressed concern that if the Dutch government reduces flight slots at Schiphol, the United States under President Donald Trump could retaliate by limiting KLM's landing rights, saying "it would be a shame if we could no longer fly to New York." In April 2024, she argued that "shrinkage is not the goal" and that reducing flights would simply shift traffic to airports in Brussels or Frankfurt, rather than achieving actual emissions reductions. She has emphasized that KLM's plan for quieter, cleaner aircraft meets noise reduction targets, and that legal disputes over Schiphol's nature permits undermine legal protection for local residents.
Transcript (34 segments)
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Interviewer0:05
Marjan, thank you so much. Please grab a seat. We have time to have a little chat because there's so much there that you mentioned. Can I just say first of all we got the memo on trainers. We know there's a lot of walking involved today, so a good start. I want to start with it being your 105th year — not yours, the airline's. We know the industry has its ups and downs, its highs and its lows. How would you assess and how will history look back at the 2020s, do you think, in terms of what the industry is going through right now, where we are versus some of the challenges that the industry has faced before?
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Marjan Rintel0:43
Well, we're still facing some difficulties. And of course, the 2020s with the COVID period — it was a horrible period for the airline industry. Of course we're still recovering. A lot of employees we had to let go, and the labor market changed so dramatically after COVID with higher inflation in the Netherlands and of course because of all the geopolitical issues, the supply chain. That's why we announced a package that we really need to work on our financial stability. And we do that to keep investing in customers, to keep investing in those new airplanes we really need to fly more cleanly and more efficiently. So it's still a hard time, and it's a time where we want to become even more sustainable as well.
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Interviewer1:48
The title of this session is interesting as well because it says 'How to run a great airline for customers, decrease your environmental footprint, and accelerate digitalization.' And you sort of touched on this — there was a time when some of those were nice-to-haves, things that were ambitions. Now you look at those challenges, there are three must-haves, three things you have to do. And therefore, as the boss, how do you prioritize where you are going to focus resources around those three challenges?
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Marjan Rintel2:13
Yes. So first of all, we need to reduce costs because our cost levels compared to what we need to invest are too high. We want to invest in our customers by installing the premium cabin, by investing in fleet. We need to build on our future, and that's why we need those investments. We need the development of, for example, e-fuels. I really believe in the future of e-fuels if it's affordable and if it's available — that's really necessary. And then the third point, reducing costs — and also from a customer point of view — you need digitalization, you need to accelerate automation. What we do is we use AI to reduce waste on board. Sometimes it's so complex that only automation can do the work, like a crew planning system, like the education of the pilots.
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Interviewer3:30
I tried it this morning — to fly an A321.
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Marjan Rintel3:33
How did that go?
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Interviewer3:34
Not so well.
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Marjan Rintel3:38
But it's a nice experience. Maybe not for the passengers.
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Interviewer3:43
Fleet renewal is a really big part of that challenge, isn't it? As you said, about six, seven billion euros on fleet renewal. And I'm interested in the motivation for this, because quite clearly, passenger comfort is one of those things, but the main driver is sustainability, isn't it? It's noise, it's fuel consumption, it's emissions — that will make a significant difference. But it's a huge expense upfront at a time when the industry says there's not a lot of spare cash washing around.
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Marjan Rintel4:12
Yeah, but it's the only way forward. If you look still today, we have 747 cargo flying around with four engines — really old airplanes. We don't want to have them anymore, and we need to replace them by the A350 coming. When do they arrive? Hopefully '26 and start of '27. But then it immediately saves nearly 50% in fuel and 40% CO2, so it really makes a difference. And that's why the financial health of a company and the package we announced is so important to achieve, so that we proceed with all those investments.
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Interviewer4:54
And you are under pressure from all sides — be it on cost, be it on sustainability — and always in terms of targets, under pressure to reduce movements. So that means that if you put planes on with bigger capacity that are greener, cleaner, less noisy, that helps. Talk to me about that strategy, particularly at night, because I think a 15% reduction ambition to reduce noise and emissions — but noise at night, it's not 50%, it's 20%.
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Marjan Rintel5:19
In total for 24 hours a day it's 20% noise reduction, and you can do that with a new fleet. We indicated that with our initiatives — quieter, more clean, more fuel-efficient — we showed the Dutch government that you can reach those targets in a lot of different ways. So by new fleet first, by operational measures — dependent on the way of takeoff, of landing — you can reach and reduce noise targets. A lot of different measures can reach those targets without reduction of flight movements.
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Interviewer6:04
One of the issues you highlighted as well were clearly those geopolitical issues. There's a lot going on in the world right now — not only in terms of geopolitics, but then we talked about supply chain, labor market shortages, and then that need for sustainability. You're having to do this huge capital expense, this huge radical change in the organization, at a time when everything else is changing too. How do you navigate that?
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Marjan Rintel6:27
I think change is part of our life. It will not go away, so we need to get used to it. We will change and need to change, and change is accelerating with digitalization and automation. Change will be there always. It's a topic in the boardroom, a topic in the executive team, and within the company. But it's never easy — let's face it, people don't like change. And there we invest a lot. I do town hall shows every four weeks, six weeks, two months — something like that. I have connect sessions, we do road shows, we have frequent meetings with the management teams. Last, during our birthday, in the morning with the board we went through operations to discuss all the changes. So it's our responsibility to discuss this.
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Interviewer7:41
Yeah, and people sometimes are afraid to lose jobs. But at the same time, it's what they say about digitalization and automation already for the last 10 years, and at the same time we see a short labor market and we cannot find the right people. And one of the most clear examples of the geopolitical issue and how it affects your business — talk to me about overflying Russia. It's a real problem because it means you have to go longer routes, you have more fuel, you have fewer pilots available, you have to take off routes because those planes are not available. How do you tackle something like that?
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Marjan Rintel8:16
Quite clearly you have to — there's no other option. So it's part of our shortage of pilots. That's why we need to increase our pilot capacity to fly the long-haul flights. And so we accelerate training, we doubled classes. But that's really a complex topic. And at the same time, I think the main topic is how do we look at issues like this from a European level. Willie Walsh will be in the room soon, I'm not so sure if he is already, but if you look at local taxes, if you look at overflying Russia, if you look at the Green Deal — what do we face as European carriers and what do we face from carriers outside Europe? At least organize a level playing field.
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Interviewer9:13
We're going to rattle through topics here because there's a lot I want to talk to you about. But you mentioned SAF as well, and crucially you said 16% of global available supply — and that's the key word, isn't it? Availability. Where are we on the tipping point? Because for that tipping point to come it needs to be commercially viable, it needs to be available, it needs to have the industry buying in. I know you're involved in initiatives to get that buy-in. Are we any closer to that tipping point? It feels every time we have events like this we talk about how important it is, but it's difficult, isn't it?
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Marjan Rintel9:44
It is, it is really difficult. And I think instead of talking about movements or local taxes or other initiatives, we need to focus on the availability of SAF. And also from a government point of view, from a European point of view, from the airline point of view — we all need to work together to get this done. And you see the difference in the United States, where they really encouraged SAF, there's more availability against a reasonable price.
I
Interviewer10:23
So what should we learn from what the US is doing?
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Marjan Rintel10:27
To really team up with governments and to really team up with the EU to get this done and to focus on it.
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Interviewer10:34
And what does that look like in practice? What are the conversations that need to happen?
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Marjan Rintel10:41
Let's first start — the new government has just started in Europe as well, and hopefully it will be on the agenda. At the end we need to put it on the agenda.
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Interviewer10:48
What are the biggest hurdles? What are the sticking points around it?
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Marjan Rintel10:53
Well, at the end I think we need to develop e-fuels, right? Because SAF will not be available even in the future, and we need the right SAF product. So we need to focus on the development of e-fuels. And therefore you need regulations, you need investments, you need support to support companies to start this process. And then hopefully after a couple of years it will be available against a reasonable price.
I
Interviewer11:29
The reason I ask is because there's a conversation that needs to be had, isn't there, with customers, with passengers, about what they will be expected to pay towards SAF. Because it can't all be lumped onto the airline — the airline is squeezed in the middle, margins are squeezed. But it's also not only individual customers, it's also corporates, it's also the businesses around here buying a ticket.
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Marjan Rintel11:48
And you also need to buy SAF and support it all together.
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Interviewer11:57
Is there an understanding that that will form part of a ticket price? We're in an industry right now that feels dominated by price.
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Marjan Rintel12:05
Yeah, but the difficulty is it's about price, it's about SAF, and it's about competition.
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Interviewer12:13
And it's difficult to make that claim, though, isn't it, on SAF? Because of greenwashing rules and things, so it's hard to communicate that to customers.
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Marjan Rintel12:17
It's difficult to communicate. You need to put it in your booking system in the right way. So we are changing it so that it's easier from a passenger point of view to book it. We included it in our Flying Blue program so customers can buy it with points, and we are discussing it with corporates as well.
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Interviewer12:40
Yeah. I'm aware time is tight, so I want to end with a thought of what this year looks like. We meet here every year, and indeed around the world. What will '25 look like for you?
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Marjan Rintel12:52
Well, first we are focusing on operational financial health to be able to have all the investments in place. And at the same time, we will see a lot of new airplanes coming in. So we expect a lot of new Airbus A321s next year, adding already value to our sustainability targets and to noise reduction.
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Interviewer13:15
It'll be a nice year — nice way to start year 106, I assume. Lovely to talk to you, thank you so much. I know you're going to be around today, but ladies and gents — Marjan Rintel, Chief Executive of KLM. Thank you so much.
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Marjan Rintel13:28
Thank you.