President & Chief Executive Officer, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V.)
Gaan we meer of minder vliegen? | Marjan Rintel | Buitenhof
‘Krimp en minder bedrijven is geen doel op zich, het doel is verduurzamen en hoe je dat zo snel mogelijk kan doen’, antwoordt president-directeur KLM Marjan Rintel op de vraag of zij bereid zou zijn om na te denken over ‘slimme krimp’. Of daarmee de relatie KLM-Schiphol onder spanning staat? ‘We hebben een gezamenlijk belang’, aldus Rintel. ‘Over 9 van de 10 manieren om tot verduurzaming te komen zijn we het eens.’
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About Marjan Rintel
Marjan Rintel, CEO of KLM, has been discussing the airline's sustainability strategy, financial stability, and regulatory challenges. In June 2025, she stated that KLM is investing billions in a new fleet, buying 16% sustainable aviation fuel (SAF), and using AI to reduce catering waste by 60%. She said the industry needs to work with governments and the EU to increase SAF supply at reasonable prices. In November 2024, she said KLM is focusing on operational and financial health to enable continued investment, and that the airline expects new Airbus 321 aircraft to contribute to sustainability and noise reduction targets. Rintel has also addressed potential political and legal risks. In January 2025, she expressed concern that if the Dutch government reduces flight slots at Schiphol, the United States under President Donald Trump could retaliate by limiting KLM's landing rights, saying "it would be a shame if we could no longer fly to New York." In April 2024, she argued that "shrinkage is not the goal" and that reducing flights would simply shift traffic to airports in Brussels or Frankfurt, rather than achieving actual emissions reductions. She has emphasized that KLM's plan for quieter, cleaner aircraft meets noise reduction targets, and that legal disputes over Schiphol's nature permits undermine legal protection for local residents.
Transcript (47 segments)
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Interviewer0:00
Do we want more or less flying, and how much should it cost? That is the question next week when the Dutch parliament debates the future of the aviation sector in the Netherlands. And what will that mean for the largest Dutch player, KLM? Here at the table, Marjan Rintel, CEO of KLM. Ms. Rintel, welcome.
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Marjan Rintel0:16
Thank you.
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Interviewer0:19
Lovely to have you. I was just talking about Greta Thunberg—she's appeared on the show a few times. Do you see her protest also as criticism of your policy?
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Marjan Rintel0:26
No, because she is simply asking for attention for the climate. I completely agree with her. I think that is very important, and we see that reflected again now. That is important to us too. The way I prefer to do it is through collaboration and accelerating sustainability, and finding solutions, rather than in this way.
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Interviewer0:45
Have you been flying less?
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Marjan Rintel0:47
Well, I combine. It depends on where you're going. Have I been flying less? Examples are sometimes given—take the train if you're going to Milan, but that takes 17 hours, so that's quite difficult. I don't do that. To Brussels or Paris, I certainly do.
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Interviewer1:02
Okay. Because KLM Schiphol—there are actually two types of travelers, I understand. There is the vacation traveler, but also the business traveler. Which do you actually prefer most?
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Marjan Rintel1:15
Well, all of them, and we have even more than that. We also have cargo. We are a logistics hub in the Netherlands, and there has been a lot of discussion here at the table in recent weeks about the business climate. Yes, that is also very dear to us, because many companies are establishing themselves here in the Netherlands because of the network we have together. So it is the vacation traveler—Transavia—and the traveler who of course leaves for study or to meet friends, but certainly also all the companies based in the Netherlands because of that enormous network.
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Interviewer1:50
Yes, let's talk about that. Because there was a report this week—you have probably read it too—from Natuur & Milieu. It states that you could eliminate 30% of those transfer flights without that having a direct effect on the Dutch economy. Plainly said, these are people who transfer at Schiphol but don't spend much, and we are stuck with the noise.
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Marjan Rintel2:08
Yes, but you know, I cannot run a company based on half-truths.
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Interviewer2:13
So it is a half-truth, you are saying?
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Marjan Rintel2:15
And as far as I am concerned, this is indeed a half-truth, because a number of elements were not taken into account, and that has been discussed too. The entire cargo element, the business climate—those are all important elements for the Netherlands that were not taken into account. The effect on the economy. And it is like this: I was in Taipei last year because we have been flying there for 40 years. You could say, you know what, cut that destination—not many vacation travelers go there. That is true. And when I arrived there, I met ASML, I met Philips, and many other companies doing business there. They would then maybe have to transfer one extra time. Well, then you move the problem, and we are not focused on sustainability. And if you take a third of a network—easily said, just cut a third—but then such a network collapses. That is what happened with Sabena in Belgium. Once it is gone, it is gone.
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Interviewer3:07
The researchers specifically say that KLM must make choices, that you should fly less in the future. So it is not really a question of what you are going to do, but are you indeed willing to think about shrinkage?
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Marjan Rintel3:22
We are thinking a lot about sustainability, but not about shrinkage.
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Interviewer3:26
Shrinkage—it seems as if shrinkage and reducing has become a goal in itself.
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Marjan Rintel3:32
I do not think that is the goal.
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Interviewer3:33
That is indeed a goal. That is a goal of the minister and of the court.
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Marjan Rintel3:37
No. The goal is noise reduction and CO2 reduction. The goal is sustainability, and how can you do that as quickly as possible. We have submitted plans for that: cleaner, quieter, more efficient. Let us also show that with all the investments we are making. We have also made 10 commitments with 31 parties to the new cabinet—let us create an action agenda together to achieve those goals. And those goals remain, as far as I am concerned, noise reduction and CO2 reduction.
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Interviewer4:07
So the answer to the question—'are you willing to think about smart shrinkage'—is basically no?
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Marjan Rintel4:11
No, I am willing to think about the goal: noise reduction and CO2 reduction. And we have really submitted plans for that. The minister's goal is 15% noise reduction, for example at night, and we can achieve that.
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Interviewer4:25
There is criticism of that too. The chairman of the Schiphol Social Council writes that it is mainly KLM, mainly the hub function, that causes most of the noise. And yes, quieter aircraft have been purchased, but they are only somewhat quieter. And that does not mean silent.
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Marjan Rintel4:42
Aviation will never be silent. And aviation—well, you are going to make it more sustainable, and you are going to make it quieter. We just happened to have a whole noise session last week with various journalists—you can just hear it. There really is some misunderstanding about what to listen for. Quieter planes have a somewhat higher-pitched sound that disappears quickly. Older planes have a humming, low sound that lingers. And if you really look at the complaints being received, they are really about the older fleet, not the newer fleet. But the older fleet is still flying. And we are going to phase those out as quickly as possible. A new Airbus 320 has already come in at Transavia, at KLM it arrives this summer. We still have four old 747s that are going out in '26. With the new Airbus—yes, all very specific—but over the coming years, through '26, '27, '28, we are going to renew the entire fleet.
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Interviewer5:41
Yes, and the reason I keep pushing on this is because you say it needs to be quieter and cleaner. But the simple fact is that the cabinet wants you to shrink, and Schiphol itself also says shrink. So that is why I am asking—do you also have a plan B for if this turns out not to be enough?
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Marjan Rintel5:56
Well, as far as I am concerned, the cabinet also does not say shrink. The cabinet says we want 15% noise reduction. They initially attached a number to that. What you see is—and Europe says this too—that you have to do it through a balanced approach. That is the process we have agreed on, it is the legislation we have to follow. There are a number of processes and steps you then need to take. You need to bring in new fleet, you can also say, let us look at approach routes, let us put quieter aircraft at night—all ways to achieve those goals. And we are in favor of that. We are not in favor of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, because what is gone really will not come back.
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Interviewer6:37
I understand. You mentioned the balanced approach—that was advice this week to the Supreme Court that you should indeed get more time to show improvement. That does not mean the Supreme Court will take that advice. But there was also another ruling earlier this month from a judge who said that the rights of local residents have been systematically violated by the noise. Do you also take that ruling into account?
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Marjan Rintel7:01
Well, these are indeed two different rulings, and both will still need to be examined. The most important thing is that the judge says to do it through a balanced approach. The other case is really about the legal protection of residents—that you need to balance that between the residents and the development of aviation. But that was mainly about legal protection, which is currently sufficient and needs to be improved. That can go hand in hand if a balanced approach is now quickly implemented. Then we at least have a new starting point: this is the vision, this is the future of aviation in the Netherlands, and you can further develop from there.
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Interviewer7:48
It is actually about a more fundamental question. This week the case between Milieudefensie and Shell also came up—it is also about who is in charge: the judge, the politicians, or the business community. And who should take the first step when it comes to sustainability? What do you think? Is it up to politics, the judge, or...?
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Marjan Rintel8:02
Well, what it comes down to for me is sustainability. And we are investing billions in that—billions in new fleet. As a group, Air France-KLM, we buy 17% of all available sustainable fuel in the world. We have to do that from the government too. Well, we have to in any case—by 2030, 6% from the European government. We do 10%, which the Dutch government... But Europe of course also has quite a few obligations through the Green Deal, and we have committed to that. That means we are spending a lot of money on it and are willing to embrace it to achieve those goals. So it is not so much about who is in charge or not. We have agreed to do it in certain ways. That way is the balanced approach. And it is important that we also talk from the Netherlands: what is our future vision? What is our action agenda? Let us not launch all sorts of other trial balloons with all the measures already coming from Europe. Let us work from a vision and an action agenda.
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Interviewer9:04
It is about—you obviously want to keep flying, I understand that. I also do not think that is in question. But the question is, what is the specific role of KLM? And you have now been CEO for almost two years. You came from the trains, from NS. Do you ever think, 'What have I gotten myself into?'
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Marjan Rintel9:23
Well, it has been quite a turbulent time. But we are an airline that has existed for almost 104 years. We can handle some turbulence. In those 104 years, we have really shown that we reinvent ourselves time and again, and we are doing that now too. At the same time, let us not forget how many people want to travel again after COVID, how many people want to fly, how many companies in the Netherlands—we are talking about ASML here, Boskalis, all the big companies. The salmon from the Nordics comes to Urk to be processed. The Sara distribution center is in Lelystad. There are many pharmaceutical companies here. I spoke to one last week that serves 15 million people, ensuring the fluids so you can detect diseases like cancer and heart failure. That should not be lost. We have an important function for the rest of the business community.
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Interviewer10:16
I just mentioned a number of reports, and for example the Staatsagent also had research done. That was the gentleman who had to check whether you were complying with your COVID support—you know him. But that was really also about Schiphol being very important. And in that report it said, KLM is becoming slightly less important. Is there tension in the Schiphol-KLM relationship?
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Marjan Rintel10:39
Well first of all, CE Delft is a major research institute, and the minister also told parliament that precisely the role of KLM for the Dutch economy and the Dutch business community, also because of all those transfer passengers, makes a very important contribution, and we want to preserve that together.
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Interviewer10:58
So you are saying that is not true?
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Marjan Rintel11:00
Well, what I am saying is, we have all sorts of ways to get there. Yes, not all ways are the same. There are many things where we think the same, both Schiphol and KLM. And let us not forget, we are connected to each other. We can only make aviation together, and cooperation is an important part of that.
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Interviewer11:20
Yes, I understand. But Schiphol is in a somewhat different position since a year and a half ago, it seems. And I read a profile in the Volkskrant about former Schiphol topman Ruud Sondag, and that was a conversation where your KLM vice president said to him, 'You know that I pay your salary.' And then I thought—is that how KLM talks about Schiphol?
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Marjan Rintel11:44
Well, first of all, I think you should never fight a discussion through the newspaper, and it is also not very decent to talk about individuals. We stand by those people too. What it really comes down to is how you approach sustainability together... But is this how Schiphol is talked about? No, that is not how we talk about Schiphol at all. We talk together a great deal—fortunately—because you can only make aviation together. We have daily contact. We send a lot of planes away every day, and a lot of passengers depart. So we truly have a shared interest. I think more than nine out of ten ways to achieve sustainability, we agree on. And we differ on a number of points too.
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Interviewer12:31
Yes, there was the CE Delft report you mentioned, and you confirmed it in the newspaper—that KLM preferred it not to come out immediately because there were things you wanted to think about longer, if I am formulating it correctly. But it also stated that KLM threatened to hold a Schiphol director personally responsible if it was published. Did you know about that threat?
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Marjan Rintel12:53
Well, you know, I am not going to comment on that here. He said, and she said, and we confirmed in the newspaper—you know, how people talk to each other internally and how discussions go, you should resolve that behind closed doors. A robust debate is part of that. What I do find, and I am in favor of, is not making it personal. I do not think that is appropriate, and we will not do that to Schiphol. I hope Schiphol will not do that to us either. I think we face an important task and an important assignment: to make aviation sustainable. We are investing a lot of money in that, and we are taking steps in that direction. And that is what brings us together.
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Interviewer13:31
Yes, I understand. And the content of the report was about flight tax or not, and about flying less or not. The politics is partly for that—that is a CDA motion that was supported, that there should be a higher tax for transfer passengers. At the same time, I read your topman Ben Smith in the Telegraaf, and he said Dutch politics is quite spoiled. Do you think so too?
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Marjan Rintel13:55
Well, I sometimes find the Netherlands a bit spoiled. We have a pretty decent standard of living here. A lot of companies are based here. We are doing really well. Even with the previous conversations, I think—what we have going well in the Netherlands, do we realize how good we have it? We should not lose sight of that.
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Interviewer14:14
No, so you are echoing him a bit. But what exactly do you mean? He says Dutch politics is a bit spoiled.
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Marjan Rintel14:23
Well, Dutch politics is not spoiled. But what you are saying is we are doing well in the Netherlands, and that is what I am saying, and that is what he is referring to. From Europe, we have a Green Deal. From Europe, a lot of measures are coming to the Netherlands in the coming years—the CO2 tax, sustainable fuel. If we then think in the Netherlands that we can add all sorts of additional measures on top of that, then you are not talking about sustainability, you are talking about displacement. Then people will fly from Brussels, fly from Frankfurt. Then we lose it here in the Netherlands, and we are not talking about sustainability. Whereas we say, let us preserve what we have, and let us quickly work together to innovate and use that innovation to become more sustainable.
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Interviewer15:04
Yes, clearly. Ms. Rintel, thank you very much.
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Marjan Rintel15:06
Thank you.
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Interviewer15:07
Thank you for watching. If you thought this was a good conversation, do not forget to subscribe. Leaving a like or a comment is also possible. Oh yes, this is what happened last time.
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Marjan Rintel15:18
If you find those topics important, then you want things to improve in the Netherlands, but then you have to turn to Europe, because Europe has the most important solutions to guarantee all of this.
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Interviewer15:27
Yes, you do not have the wind in your sails, because it is not just in the Netherlands but also in...