CEOInterviews.AI#31–CEO Peer Swinkels (Royal Swinkels): hoe het oranje-jurkje de FIFA op z’n kop zette

H

Host0:00

Oh yeah, but Crown Prince Peer. No, the Crown Prince. He's the prince. No, that prince. The king — you're the king. Sorry, you're from Rotterdam newspaper. You have a Prince Pils and you have the King's. Heard more. King Pils. Yes, Prince Pils.

P

Peer Swinkels0:12

My uncle also traveled a lot with my father. Yes, then he'd always say: 'I'll bring you a little monkey.' Never did it, the bastard.

H

Host0:20

Not anymore. Back then he could though. That man was literally sent into the stadium in his underwear. And that story came out over the phone. And then I thought: 'Bingo, we've got him.' Bingo.

Welcome to Dutch Dragons, the podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. If you want to see all episodes, sign up for free and as soon as there's a new episode, you'll get a notification. Good luck. You wouldn't think it, but this is the first recording of the day. And I just made a joke to Peer: 'You don't have a crate of beer with you, do you?' It's not a crate. He just brought a bunch of loose bottles of all kinds of beautiful vintage pilsners. So, curious.

P

Peer Swinkels1:02

Not just pils. No, no, no. There's more. There's Witte Trappist. It's the difference from regular pils. No, no, this is alcohol-free pils.

H

Host1:12

So I know who I'm sitting at the table with. Witte Trappist, right. So that's a Trappist beer. But I think I should briefly introduce who you are, Peer. No wait. Easy. Easy now. Easy. No, but — no, this is the introduction for the pils. The Witte Trappist. Yes, the Witte Trappist.

And then we have the Rodenbach. That's a sour, right? It's a reddish-brown Flemish beer. West Flemish beer. Why does it come in such a big glass, in such a big bottle?

P

Peer Swinkels1:42

Because it's a very special product. Yes, it's a very, very special product, because it's brewed in a brewery with very large vats. Those are gigantic oak barrels. And the beer is matured on those for two years. And then it goes into that bottle. On what do you call them?

H

Host2:03

Sherry vats, right? Sherry vats. I don't know.

P

Peer Swinkels2:08

Sherry vats. No, not on sherry vats. These are just on oak vats. We still have two coopers employed who make those large vats.

H

Host2:13

Coopers.

P

Peer Swinkels2:16

Yes, coopers. A real profession. That's an old profession.

H

Host2:17

Oh wow. Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels2:19

So that's where the beer is matured. And then there's Cornet. That's a heavier blonde, let's say, but it's built with oak chips.

H

Host2:26

And that's a French… Belgian beer, probably Belgian beer.

P

Peer Swinkels2:28

These are Belgian beers. This is a Dutch — sold in the Netherlands.

H

Host2:30

Yes. Yes. All these beers are sold in the Netherlands.

Well, for everyone then. Sorry Michel, next one. We have Peer Swinkels at the table here. We all know him pretty well. Not just from Bavaria beer, but you've been very visible lately. We see you everywhere and we also know you privately quite well and for a long time actually. That makes it fun too, I think.

Bring it up. We don't see everything, right.

P

Peer Swinkels3:00

No, no, not everything. We also haven't made any agreements about that yet. I hope we'll have to cut some things. We'll keep it tidy.

H

Host3:08

But Peer, we're very honored that you're here. For those who love Heineken — can you give a brief introduction of yourself? Who are you? What do you do?

P

Peer Swinkels3:18

Well, I think your listeners especially love our beer. I hope so. No, certainly after this conversation. Yes, that's how it is, because this is sympathetic. So I'm in consumer business. Everything I do is naturally aimed at promoting our beautiful beers. But no, so my background is — my family company is called Royal Swinkels, so my last name. And I've been CEO there since 2019, but I've been on the board since 2004, a very long time. And so I'm actually the entrepreneurial family — well, the crown prince.

H

Host3:55

Crown Prince. Peer. No, the Crown Prince. Well, so he's the prince. No, the king. Prince. The king, that's you. Sorry, you're from Rotterdam newspaper. King Pils. You have a Prince Pils and you have the King's. King Pils. Yes, Prince Pils. Okay. No, King Pils. Well, go on. Go on. Sorry for interrupting you.

How long has the company existed? Why is it Royal?

P

Peer Swinkels4:14

Yes, 1680 is the first year we know the brewery existed. At that time it was still a very small brewery in Lieshout. It was actually a farming business with a brewery attached. That lasted for centuries, but in 1773 my family came in, and that was actually through a marriage between the daughter of the owner and my great-great-grandfather. That was Ambrosius Swinkels. And Ambrosius married a woman named Bergitta Mores. And from that moment Ambrosius started leading the brewery alongside the farming business. And that continued until about 1924. And then my great-grandfather actually took a very brave step. At that time we had a brewery that produced ale. So that's English ale. And in the Netherlands — very few people know this — but 100 years ago people in the Netherlands drank British ale. We were an ale country. And then my great-grandfather, as one of the first in the Netherlands, chose to put all his savings — to really go all in. He said: 'I'm going to invest all my money in pilsner. But you need a different brewery for that. You can't brew that in an ale brewery.' So he had to build a completely new brewery. And all his money went into that, but nobody knew, he certainly didn't know if it would be a success, because it was a product people weren't used to at all in the Netherlands. He had seen it in southern Germany and in Czech Republic. He brought that brewing method to the Netherlands. And eventually it took decades before ale completely disappeared from the Netherlands. But ultimately pilsner became the beer in the Netherlands. And that's why it was called Bavaria. It was a reference to the Bavarian brewing method. And so in 1924 that brewery was built. In '25 it opened. The brewery was called 'de Kerkdijk.' Not really a name with which you can conquer the world. So then he thought, you know what, I'm going to name it after that brewing method from Bavaria. That's why it became Bavaria. The Bavaria brewery has existed since 1925.

H

Host6:22

I've always heard it's one of the oldest family businesses in the Netherlands, right?

P

Peer Swinkels6:28

Yes, we're in the top five oldest family businesses in the Netherlands.

H

Host6:31

That's unbelievable. Yes. Yes, beautiful.

P

Peer Swinkels6:34

So for centuries… I'm from the seventh generation myself, but we've had nine generations in the company.

H

Host6:41

Hey, and about you. I know you from Rotterdam when you arrived there.

P

Peer Swinkels6:45

Yes, yes, yes, that's right. I know you too.

H

Host6:48

I always ran into you in dark places.

P

Peer Swinkels6:50

No, I was everywhere back then.

H

Host6:53

Yes. So no, for clarity, I didn't study so I wasn't there. You did six years of econometrics.

P

Peer Swinkels7:00

So — that's also how I met Michel later when Bavaria City Racing was happening in Rotterdam. That's when I got in touch with Michel. But no, I studied in Rotterdam and did economics there. So I eventually graduated in 2000.

H

Host7:14

You don't do that if you're a dummy.

P

Peer Swinkels7:15

Right? Yes, am I saying I'm a dummy?

H

Host7:17

No, but I want — no, no, but what we mean is that you're a very smart guy.

P

Peer Swinkels7:23

Yes, actually that's a compliment. Yes, correct. Yes, but sometimes you're hindered by being too smart. I also — I don't let myself be too hindered by being too smart, let me put it that way. Because I always see very good entrepreneurs who haven't studied much and who don't let themselves be hindered by too many barriers. And that's a mentality I love. I love the mentality. Don't let yourself be too hindered by —

H

Host7:47

Because you've become a mix of Rotterdam and Brabant.

P

Peer Swinkels7:50

Absolutely. I feel like a Rotterdam Brabanter or a Brabant Rotterdamer, however you want to call it.

H

Host7:53

Yes. Nice. Yes. And but Rotterdam and then —

P

Peer Swinkels7:56

Yes. So then I first went to work here in Rotterdam. First in 1998 I really learned what I liked, because with econometrics you can go in all directions. But I knew one thing for sure. I didn't want to go to a bank or do actuarial work or things like that, that wasn't for me at all. But in '98 I did an international internship in Vietnam, in Ho Chi Minh City, for a company of Unilever in Vietnam called Wall's Ice Cream, the Ola brand. And that company was losing money. Unilever had a bit of an issue there. They had built a good laundry and personal care division, but they didn't have a good food business in Vietnam at that time. Only ice cream, which was losing money. So they had to invest in something else and decided to put noodles on the market. A packet of noodles. A huge food product in that country. And they brought me there to do that. And why did they bring me, a cheap student? Because they couldn't afford an expensive expert. The company was losing money. And then I got to do that project. Well, it was an amazing project. I traveled all over the country. Eventually I presented a whole case to bring a noodle product to market there. And that's when I learned that I really enjoy international business across the world, in countries where it's very different from the Netherlands, because there it grows at a tremendous pace.

H

Host9:24

Were you already a planned CEO for Bavaria back then? Did you really choose that path?

P

Peer Swinkels9:30

Hell no. No, that's totally not — because it's three brothers, right? Eventually my great-great-grandfather had ten children, of whom three sons. And those three sons continued it. Is that it? That's 3S. Yes. The old 3S brand of cola, sinas, cassis.

H

Host9:49

That — I had to throw in some Klontjes and vodka and then I had a nice vodka, because you always had three in the house.

P

Peer Swinkels9:57

Yes, you had to, I think.

H

Host10:00

No, but you always had — in your student house you always had — didn't a tanker truck come by every day to deliver?

P

Peer Swinkels10:14

Well, at my student house we had it delivered through the EA. But yes, it was cheaper than having it come directly from the truck. Oh yes, but — well, we were of course used to it. In the past I also always worked — I started working at age 14 during summer vacations and so on, in the bottling plant, in the brewery as a forklift driver, behind the pasteur machine, in hospitality as a co-driver in the truck, in the office in England I've worked too. And I hadn't even started studying yet. So I had already done five or six jobs in the company. But it was never my — certainly when I started at Unilever here in Rotterdam, because after Vietnam I started here in Rotterdam at Unilever, I didn't yet have the idea of going into the family business. No. That only came later. In 2003 I made the switch.

H

Host11:15

Okay. Yes, the seed was planted somewhere.

P

Peer Swinkels11:17

Yes, but strangely enough it's not like I thought it was all planned. No, that's not how it went. That's not how it works, because we have a very large family, so that's not how it works.

H

Host11:22

How many people work for you?

P

Peer Swinkels11:24

3,000.

H

Host11:26

Yes. Yes. And how many family members are there involved now?

P

Peer Swinkels11:30

More than 200.

H

Host11:33

200?

P

Peer Swinkels11:33

Yes. More than 200.

H

Host11:35

You really have to work hard. Are they nice to you? Are they nice to you?

P

Peer Swinkels11:40

Yes. I have a very nice family.

H

Host11:41

I hear that goes with a beer family, I think.

P

Peer Swinkels11:44

Yes.

H

Host11:44

Well, it's very difficult though when you look at family businesses. They usually fall apart because they get too big, too many. And that the successors have to come from the family stable, and they're just not there or insufficient. Or that family members say: 'Hey, I want to see some money. I want to sell my shares.' So I think Peer — I know Peer quite well, but I think it's amazing what you do, keeping all those — well, maybe it's wrong to call them that — but all those 200 family members, all those shareholders somewhat satisfied. That's quite a job. And that's why you see a lot of family businesses ending up going under.

P

Peer Swinkels12:22

Yes, what you actually see is often what works very well is a DGA structure, right, where you have one majority shareholder. And that person ultimately has all the decision-making power, and that makes the decision-making in a company very clear. So that's a family business with a DGA structure. What often works well too is our type, because we also have just one shareholder. And behind that is the family, certificate holders. So you effectively have just one shareholder and then you also have a very large talent pool. Then you have a lot to choose from. So what you sometimes see in family businesses is that in succession there has to be a daughter or son who happens to be a good entrepreneur too. And that's not always the case. So if you have very few people to choose from, then it's often difficult in succession. And with us there's an enormous range of choice. Right, so there are always talents among them. That's a big advantage of our situation. What's often difficult is when you have, say, five children, or four, sometimes from multiple marriages, and then you have to do the succession as a family business, and then it becomes difficult, especially if the shares are all divided equally. Yes. Then you often have the issues in succession. There also has to happen to be a good entrepreneur among them. So I think the two models — a DGA with a very clear majority of shares, or one shareholder with a large family behind it — are models that work well.

H

Host13:46

But so far you've always had a Swinkels as CEO, right?

P

Peer Swinkels13:50

So far, yes.

H

Host13:52

So no law of the Medes and Persians.

P

Peer Swinkels13:52

No. But so far, yes. And you're number how many?

H

Host13:54

And you're number how many?

P

Peer Swinkels13:57

Yes, so if you — then I have to count from seven generations, and from the sixth generation there are two. My father and his oldest brother.

H

Host14:06

And also Peer, right?

P

Peer Swinkels14:09

My father's name is Peter officially. My official name is Peter Jan.

H

Host14:12

Okay.

P

Peer Swinkels14:12

Yes. My nickname is Peer. So from my father's generation there were two in one generation, and in my generation also two, because my predecessor was also from my generation.

H

Host14:22

Okay. Yes. Beautiful. And what's your revenue?

P

Peer Swinkels14:26

1.1 billion, approximately.

H

Host14:29

Yes. And how much of that do you do in the Netherlands?

P

Peer Swinkels14:31

Well, total if you look at the whole business, because we're in beer, soft drinks, energy drinks, malt extracts, real estate. We have a very diverse range of activities in the group. So if you look at everything you do in the Netherlands — if I count real estate too — then I think about 30%.

H

Host14:51

Yes, because with real estate we're mainly in the Netherlands and Belgium.

P

Peer Swinkels14:55

Yes, then you have the pub part where — yes, then we're the owner of the buildings.

H

Host14:58

Of the buildings.

P

Peer Swinkels14:59

Yes, of the buildings. Not of the pubs themselves, not of the operations, but of the buildings. And we actually do that only with focus on the Netherlands and Belgium. And the beer business and the malt is worldwide. So we're in about 150 countries.

H

Host15:09

And which country are you most proud of?

P

Peer Swinkels15:13

Yes, that's such a — well, I'm proud of several countries. Of course our roots are in the Netherlands, but ultimately the success and growth is mainly abroad, because Western Europe and the Netherlands is just a difficult market. It's a declining market. The economy is just not that strong and certainly the economic growth is just not as strong as in many other countries in the world. So as an entrepreneur, when you see that the limitations are getting bigger and bigger in a country like the Netherlands, you naturally have to invest outside. We do that partly in Europe, but also outside Europe quite substantially now. So I'm proud, yes, of many countries naturally, but France is a very important country for us. In Europe, our most important market.

H

Host15:59

Biggest market.

P

Peer Swinkels16:00

Yes, our most important market.

H

Host16:02

Yes. Yes. And then you don't have an easy name to pronounce. Sorry.

P

Peer Swinkels16:06

What's not easy to pronounce? Bavaria. Yes, but we sell a different brand there.

H

Host16:10

Okay.

P

Peer Swinkels16:10

We sell a brand there that in France is called 8.6. Weed Sees. And that's a brand in our company — that's our most important brand.

H

Host16:18

Important, strong beer.

P

Peer Swinkels16:20

Exactly. Yes, there are also multiple variants. We have several variants under that brand, but the original 8.6 is 8.6% alcohol, so that's — Cornet has 8.5%.

H

Host16:31

Yes, exactly.

P

Peer Swinkels16:36

Strong. So but outside Europe too — we built a new brewery in Ethiopia, opened in 2015. I think we're also very proud of that. Because that Ethiopia story I think is a nice one. How that came about, that's actually an entrepreneur's story. So how did that happen? At some point in 2011 we came into contact with a group of Ethiopian investors. They kept emailing me every month — then I first have to deposit €1,000 and then I get a million.

H

Host17:05

Yes, exactly.

P

Peer Swinkels17:08

Yes. But we did go visit. So at some point three board members went. I had a completely different image of Ethiopia. That's why this is so fun. Ethiopia is a country that when we traveled there in 2011, we thought — still that image from those old documentaries, you know, with poor children, drought, a lot of misery. But when I came there myself for the first time in 2011, the world opened up for me, honestly. Because even then that country was growing considerably, enormous economic development. Addis Ababa is a world city. There are 120 million people living there. It's the second largest country in Africa. Nigeria is the largest and Ethiopia is the second largest country in Africa. Enormous population growth. But the population pyramid is also very favorable for our product. Because the 18-plus population is growing exponentially in that country. So in that respect it was a very important visit in 2011. But what did we do then? What happened? Well, we went to dinner in the evening with those Ethiopian investors. Now imagine, those were men in suits, just serious investors. But there were also a few tribal chiefs there with sticks and so on. That was quite special. And then we heard the story at the table. They said: 'Yes, we've already brought in thousands of shareholders for the project. We have an office in Addis where coupons are being issued.' That was really like the Netherlands 80 years ago, literally issuing share coupons with stamps. Yes, literally with stamps and so on. And thousands of people have already deposited money. All small savers and investors for a project. And that project is called Habesha, the Habesha brewery. And everyone in Ethiopia already knows it. There's no beer yet, there's no brewery. But everyone already knows the brand Habesha beer, that it's coming. Well, we thought this is too good to be true. Our business largely consists of marketing, building brands. So we have to invest a lot of money in creating awareness and a good image for the brand, for all our brands. So the next day we thought: 'Yes, this is actually too good to be true. You know what? We're going to put it to the test.' So we got a jeep and drove 125 km outside Addis to some random town. Just add random. And we walked around that town all day and went into all the outlets where beer was sold. So in Ethiopia those aren't hospitality or retail outlets like we know. They don't have supermarkets and such. They're all mom-and-pop shops. And then we started talking to the owners of all those outlets plus the customers who came there. And we just talked: what do you actually sell? What brands are they? Are there other brands coming?

H

Host20:02

A translator or do they speak English?

P

Peer Swinkels20:03

Yes, so partially we had a translator with us who could sort of translate. Partially it was also in English. So to our amazement, every outlet we stepped into already knew the brand Habesha. No way. So and that's unique, right, that you don't have a brewery yet. There's no product on the market, but everyone already knows it.

H

Host20:22

Yes, you have to be there to —

P

Peer Swinkels20:24

And then based on that one visit we decided we're going to invest there. And we eventually got the majority stake in that project. And because of that we lead that company in Ethiopia too, but we still have 8,600 local shareholders in it.

H

Host20:42

8,600.

P

Peer Swinkels20:44

So when I have a shareholders' meeting, there are thousands of people in the room.

H

Host20:48

Yes. Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels20:48

They also get dividends.

H

Host20:50

They get dividends. Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels20:53

Yes. And that's truly an entrepreneur's adventure. But through that project we really got the taste for it. Because it became a huge success. The first day we opened we were already sold out. It was unprecedented how fast it went. On day one we immediately decided to double the capacity. Well, then the year later we had doubled it and were immediately sold out again. We doubled the capacity again. And that's one of the reasons why we later also started investing in other countries, again outside Europe. Because we had seen then: yes, much of the growth is mainly outside Europe. And moreover, you also have to look carefully at demographic development and so on.

H

Host21:35

Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels21:35

That really got us thinking. Among other things also about Cuba.

H

Host21:39

Yes, in Cuba. Yes, you went there.

P

Peer Swinkels21:43

Yes, that was a very beautiful brewery. That's the most green brewery, right? Or not?

H

Host21:45

Yes, that's the malthouse on the Eem you're talking about. We can talk about that later.

P

Peer Swinkels21:49

But in Cuba we also built new. But there we already had a very long history in that country. My father started there in the '70s. So we'd had an office there for a very long time. But at some point there was an opportunity because the government wanted to issue a license for a second brewery. It was a monopoly market. And they wanted to issue a license for a second brewery in the country. And then we had a battle together with other brewers to get that license. Yes, that succeeded.

H

Host22:27

Yes. Is your father also such a traveler?

P

Peer Swinkels22:29

Yes, my father was — yes, he was really traveling a lot, because he started with exports in 1973. '73 — you have to look at that. That was quite a different kind of travel too.

H

Host22:37

Yes, quite different then.

P

Peer Swinkels22:40

Yes, exactly. And he was just — he was just on a plane every week. Yes. So and he traveled the whole world and he literally started with nothing and built up everywhere. My father was actually mostly traveling when I was young.

H

Host25:15

Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels25:15

Yes. And but he'd come home with great stories. And sometimes great international relationships would come to our house. We as children found that amazing. The whole international business world was in our home from a young age. And that's what I got infected by. Not only through that internship project, but also through my father's export business. I got infected with the international business world.

H

Host25:44

Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels25:46

My uncle also traveled a lot with my father. Yes. Then he'd always say: 'I'll bring you a little monkey.' Never did it, that bastard. Not anymore. Back then he could.

Do you know how strong they are, Michel? Because you also worked with your father, right? It was a family business for you.

M

Michel26:03

It was a family business. Yes. Papa.

P

Peer Swinkels26:06

And how did you find that? Working with your father?

M

Michel26:11

Nothing. No. No. No. Yes. Ducks fly in pairs and an eagle flies alone. But you were family. I just wanted it differently than Papa and we really parted as friends. So I just bought his shares.

P

Peer Swinkels26:26

So I don't know that feeling you have. I think it's very beautiful that you do it. But you — I still worked four years with my father.

M

Michel26:33

Yes, but you also have a lot of shareholders. That's what I mean. That you — yes, exactly — have a whole group. And that you keep them together, I think that's very impressive. But you for so many years. Did you buy out your father?

P

Peer Swinkels26:44

I bought out my father. Yes, I didn't get it for free. And that was in the guilder era.

M

Michel26:48

In the guilder era.

P

Peer Swinkels26:48

Yes. And then you went to your father. 'Hey Dad, here's a tenner.' No, I paid 5.8 million Goodwiel guilders.

M

Michel26:55

Wow, that's a lot of money.

P

Peer Swinkels26:57

Yes. And yes, because we were just doing trade. We had no beer. We had to find our own trade. We were doing parallel trade. Yes. So we had actually nothing. Well, the year after we earned — or the first year was one-third shareholder. And then I had 2.5 million. Because first I got my preferred shares. So he got — and then we split. One-third — then you go to the bank. I say yes, I have 2.5 million. And they say no, you're in the minus. I say minus intangible fixed assets. You paid goodwill. Well, I didn't know anything about that, man. Then I started learning to read a balance sheet. Yes, that's handy. Well, that old man lent about 35 million guilders at the bank. Just walked up to the bank director and — yes, well, that's fine. Those amounts they were allowed to lend out, and that's how he started. But the bank didn't get any worse from it, I think. No, no, definitely not. But I once had an experience after which I never banked with that bank again.

H

Host27:58

Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels27:58

We had a few shops at some point and I went to that bank and I needed €50,000 guilders in cash. Well, that was very normal back then. They had it in the safe too. So I get there and I'd just seen my bank balance. There was 400,000 on there. So I go to get half a ton. He says: 'Well, I have to check with the director.' Goes to the director. Look, there's 400,000 in the bank. Yes. Well, go talk to the director. I go to that director. Yes, then you already feel like shit, man. And he — yes, it's not possible. I said not possible? Yes, you've also opened LCs and that comes off your credit, your balance. Yes, so you have absolutely nothing — I can't give you 50,000 guilders. LC — that money is locked up. So I had to go tell that gentleman he wasn't getting the €50,000.

H

Host28:48

Yes.

P

Peer Swinkels28:49

And what did that gentleman say? Yes. No, but then you really go down the drain, because we had easily 3 to 5 tons a week. Because that trade — yes, all of Europe, Italy. But you have to realize that your entire banking relationship was ruined by this little thing. They could have earned so much money from you, could have been such a good client. And with this they ruin it — unbelievable. The NB. Yes. Okay.

H

Host29:12

Think with you. But don't you know when you walk out, man, he should say: 'I don't have it.' Doubt — yes.

P

Peer Swinkels29:18

Go through the ground. Okay. But how did you arrange it then? Yes, two days later we had money again from those shops. So I paid those guys, of course.

H

Host29:26

But you just emptied the cash register.

P

Peer Swinkels29:28

No, we had those home computers, those Commodity thingies, you know. So that went well.

H

Host29:34

But we're talking about you, friend.

P

Peer Swinkels29:38

No, no, no, but to turn it around. Look — just look at that.

H

Host29:40

And you have another fail story to tell. And I also want to talk about it, because about the marketing efforts that Peer has done. Peer really immersed himself in the company, but definitely earned his credits.

P

Peer Swinkels29:57

In my father's time we had Miami Vice. Yes. There's also a whole anecdote attached to that. I could tell a thousand anecdotes here.

H

Host30:03

But we have time. Yes, but start. Yes, marketing.

P

Peer Swinkels30:11

No, yes, of course. So I joined the company in 2003, and one of the things I did from the very first moment is that I actually handled all the global marketing of the company. I always did sales next to it.

H

Host30:26

You stepped into a nice story, because they had already done very nice things, right, Bavaria?

P

Peer Swinkels30:29

Yes. Yes. So that Miami story and those were all things. So my father, in his time, did business with a number of big stars, including indeed with Don Johnson. Only Don Johnson — very few people know this, but Don Johnson approached us himself. Because Don Johnson had gotten clean from alcohol and at some point was in Europe, and I believe it was at the Hilton Hotel in Amsterdam where he was staying. And one evening he ordered an alcohol-free beer at the bar, and he got our alcohol-free beer. I'm talking early '80s. Not Buckler. No, it was not Buckler. It was really the only thing available at that time. And he was so amazed by the quality of that product, how well it actually tasted for an alcohol-free beer, that he literally called the office of my father. And his secretary picked up and she got Don Johnson on the phone, and she walked into my father's office and she said: 'Yes, I have Donald Jones on the telephone.' That famous Dutch person hadn't translated it quite right. So my father thought: 'I'm getting Donald Jones on the phone.' But it was Don Johnson. And ultimately he made a deal with Don Johnson because Don Johnson approached us.

H

Host31:51

You might want to explain, because there are a lot of viewers who don't know that man.

M

Michel31:54

Miami Vice, that's Don Johnson. A very famous series. We used to stay home in the evenings. Don Johnson was a big star in America. Beautiful car, right? He had a fantastic car.

P

Peer Swinkels32:05

My father did that commercial. But at some point I naturally came into the company, and then we also worked with a number of big stars.

H

Host32:14

Which ones?

P

Peer Swinkels32:16

With Charlie Sheen, I worked.

H

Host32:19

Oh, he also enjoys a beer, right?

P

Peer Swinkels32:20

Yes. Yes. But that's why I always found it beautiful. In marketing you always have to find the paradox. The best marketing campaigns are actually the campaigns where you find the paradox, where the tension sits — an apparent contrast. And for example, with Charlie Sheen, he had an alcohol problem and had recovered from that. And we were going to make that commercial with him where his friends throw a homecoming party for him. And everyone thinks, well, then we're going to have another beer together. We put that alcohol-free beer forward of course. You always seek that tension. And good marketing always has that insight. And so we always looked for those ideas where there was a paradox, a sort of tension, and where a lot of PR value was attached. Because PR is free and for nothing, right? That's the most effective marketing and it costs nothing. So when I got ideas on my desk, I always looked at two things essentially. And based on that, I made decisions. So that was the case with the dresses, that was the case with those big campaigns. And with Bavaria City Racing — I was naturally busy with that for six years. Amazing event. Also in Rotterdam and Moscow.

H

Host33:43

Rotterdam, Moscow, and Dublin.

P

Peer Swinkels33:45

Dublin too. Yes, we did it in three cities. But there I also had a fail story. Wait, I'll tell my fail story first. I'm standing there with a Bugatti.

H

Host33:52

Yes. Where?

P

Peer Swinkels33:54

In Rotterdam. Michel drove along every year. I myself couldn't really handle it, but I did it anyway. But I did have a bit of a thing about chasing after those racers.

H

Host34:05

That's going too fast.

P

Peer Swinkels34:07

But anyway, at some point I see Mr. Balkenende walking. He was Prime Minister, and he comes up to me. 'Beautiful car, sir.' And yes, wait, come here. So I open my glove compartment, take out my registration document. I say: 'Mr. Balkenende, five hundred and sixty thousand euros in BPM tax — do you think that's normal?' Then he stood up straight and said: 'Mr. Peer Swinkels, may I on behalf of the Kingdom of the Netherlands thank you.' I got a thank-you from the Prime Minister for five hundred and sixty thousand! He handled that smartly. He was a great politician. And he came every year to the opening. He always did the opening of Bavaria City Racing. He was a car enthusiast and he always did that wonderfully. But do you remember that year when it really poured? The rain was coming down in buckets, and he was sitting with Ivo Opstelten in the open car. In the Ross Royale, I think, completely drenched. With a little umbrella. But that didn't bother him at all. That was truly amazing.

And he also ensured that we were able to do this in Moscow. He is one of the reasons it succeeded in Moscow, because it was really very difficult to get the roads around the Kremlin. It had simply never happened before in all of Russian state history that a commercial event with Formula 1 cars or any commercial event was organized there. So when I asked Jan Peter Balkenende at Bavaria City Racing Rotterdam if he could help make this possible in Moscow, that was key.

H

Host35:48

Would you not do that in Moscow now?

P

Peer Swinkels35:49

No, now ten years later it's totally different. The times have changed. It's actually a shame.

H

Host35:59

Without... I don't think you could pull it off anymore either.

P

Peer Swinkels36:01

No, and now you wouldn't want to anymore, right?

H

Host36:04

No, you wouldn't.

P

Peer Swinkels36:08

You wouldn't get sponsors anymore, I think. But it's a shame that it's no longer possible. We won't do that to our children. But that changes again.

H

Host36:17

If you look at the long term, the world is always changing.

P

Peer Swinkels36:20

Of course. You can never say it will never happen again. But what was your fail with Bavaria City Racing?

H

Host36:23

Well, that's one of the fails.

P

Peer Swinkels36:27

But at some point I thought you have to stop at the peak. So I did Rotterdam for six years, Moscow once, Dublin. Bavaria City Racing was a big concept. A unique event, and we could have rolled it out to more cities worldwide. We had built very good contacts with the Formula 1 teams by then. First in Rotterdam we organized it with two Rotterdam men who had set up the event for the first time — Robert Helbron and Herman Vaanold. We worked very well together with Herman and Robert. Later we did Moscow with Derk Sauer among others, and Dublin with our partner there. We had to find the right people each time. But after six years in Rotterdam, I thought we should stop at the peak, because often you stop too late with these things. What I hadn't foreseen and hadn't estimated well is that Max Verstappen would become so big. His father even raced a few times in the Bugatti.

M

Michel37:47

You had contact with Jos, or Jos came to your father?

P

Peer Swinkels37:54

Because he naturally had to put his sponsorship together.

H

Host38:00

Did he come visit your father? He seemed to visit everyone to get sponsorship.

P

Peer Swinkels38:05

I do have respect for that. It's incredibly expensive to run a Formula 1 team.

H

Host38:13

But Jos had to bring money, and Max gets paid a lot.

P

Peer Swinkels38:16

Jos did manage to arrange it. It wasn't as crazy as last week.

H

Host38:25

It's a good example of persistence paying off.

P

Peer Swinkels38:28

Absolutely. Beautiful.

H

Host38:31

Actually Jos is also an entrepreneur.

P

Peer Swinkels38:35

Definitely. Yes.

H

Host38:37

Where will you be in five years?

P

Peer Swinkels38:40

What we're working toward in the big picture is transitioning from a local company to an international company. We've always been very export-driven from the Netherlands, but now we're mainly focused on multinationalization.

H

Host38:55

Will you move to Amsterdam like Philips?

P

Peer Swinkels38:57

No, no, no. We'll stay in the Netherlands, absolutely loyal to our roots, which is North Brabant, the Brainport region. We were one of the founders of Brainport in the Netherlands, and my father even came up with the name Brainport.

H

Host39:10

Oh, how cool.

P

Peer Swinkels39:13

So we'll happily stay in Brainport with the company, and we're very proud of that. That will remain our home base. But we want to have production in many countries around the world. Sometimes we do that ourselves, and we also work with partners who produce for us. We currently work at 18 locations worldwide with production, and we want to expand that further.

H

Host39:38

Recipe, you give them the recipe and they make it?

P

Peer Swinkels39:40

Yes, with partners it's either a license, or contract manufacturing, or a combination. Every country is different, but in every country we look for the optimal model. The optimal model is no longer just exporting from the Netherlands to the rest of the world — it's thinking from the consumer's perspective. How can you get as close to the consumer as possible? How can you grow as fast as possible in countries? And sometimes you need to make that choice.

H

Host40:17

Can you still get enough people in Brainport? Because ASML sucks up all the talent.

P

Peer Swinkels40:24

It's a bit dual. On one hand, Brainport has ensured that the region has developed enormously. Within three years it will be the largest economy in the Netherlands. Philips is actually becoming that again. Brainport is basically becoming the economy of the Netherlands, with the entire supply chain of ASML, but also NXP, VDL — big companies in that region. But it's very dual. On one hand, it has enormous magnetic power for talent, and on the other hand there's great competition between companies for that talent. But you have the advantage that you have a well-known name in the labor market. If you have established consumer brands and company names, we invest a lot of time and energy in that. And then talent comes to you. And Brainport — in the past people had to think about whether they wanted to work in that part of the Netherlands. But now many people just live in Brainport or its surroundings, so it's become less problematic for us to attract talent from all over the Netherlands. For our Dutch activities. Because we also work in many other countries where we need local talent.

H

Host42:01

Tell me about another country. I find it really impressive. One more thing — the dresses.

P

Peer Swinkels42:11

Oh, the dresses.

M

Michel42:13

Yes, with those ladies. Yes, that was something.

P

Peer Swinkels42:15

Yes, you wrote that down, right? Those questions. Look, I once signed a very thick contract with FIFA after a week of negotiations, that I can no longer say what took place behind the scenes. In principle, I can talk about everything that has become public. Podcast didn't exist back then, so it's not actually in there. No, but a nice anecdote — that can all be said safely — is that when we were dealing with the fact that in 2006 I already had a huge success with the Lion Pants. Can you all remember that? Those orange lederhosen with a lion tail attached. And I was sitting in the office next to the customer service department. So I heard our customers calling all day. And one Monday morning I came into the office with those Lion Pants — not the dresses yet, but there's a connection coming — and I heard the woman answering the phone having a conversation with a man from Zeelandic Flanders. He had been at a practice match of the Dutch national team in Rotterdam's De Kuip on Saturday. And he had bought a Lion Pants package at the Super de Boer in Zeelandic Flanders — 11 beers plus a Lion Pants for some euros. He'd put on the Lion Pants and gone to the match. And he was ordered by the KNVB steward to take off his Lion Pants. But the problem was it was 32 degrees that day. So virtually nobody had anything under the Lion Pants except underwear. So he had absolutely nothing. That man was literally sent into the stadium in his underwear. And that's what she was telling on the phone. And I thought: bingo!

This is very stupid when they do these kinds of actions. So I was able to use that. And then I started summary proceedings against the KNVB. Namely over the principled point that people have clothing on. There's a brand on it — Adidas. If you're wearing shoes, you're not going to force someone to take their shoes off, are you? It was about the brand, because Heineken was the KNVB's sponsor. But Adidas might also be a sponsor. You're not going to tell someone they can't wear shoes. I found it very principled, but I thought this will just work fine. So we did that summary proceedings. The judge said: 'No, the KNVB may not forbid those pants, may not make people take them off.' So we won that case. And then at the 2006 World Cup in Germany that followed, we thought the same thing could happen with FIFA. But we had already won that lawsuit in the Netherlands. So my secretary at the time went to the Orange Camp with a whole distribution team from our company handing out Lion Pants. So everyone on the Orange March to the stadium had those Lion Pants on. Fantastic. I had told my secretary: if you see at the entrance in Stuttgart that FIFA is again asking people to take off their Lion Pants — because ING was sponsor of the World Cup at the time — then give me a call. And I did indeed get a call from my secretary: 'Peer, I'm standing here at the stadium. I see again that people are being sent into the stadium in their underwear.' I was watching the match at my old student house in Rotterdam. I said to my student friends: 'Guys, I'm going to make a call in the next room.' Then I called Builds in Germany, got through to Berlin headquarters, and after being transferred three times I ended up with a journalist in Stuttgart. I told that journalist everything we had experienced in the Netherlands — that we had won a lawsuit, that it really shouldn't be acceptable to send someone into a stadium in their underwear. He said: 'Wait, wait. I'm calling back to the match right away, because this is really a big story.' He called me back, I explained the whole story again, and the next day it was on page three of Builds. And with that one phone call, it went to the major news agency Reuters. With one phone call we had the whole world press.

H

Host46:44

And did that affect beer sales?

P

Peer Swinkels46:46

Yes, we had huge... well, we had way too few dresses in the end. I think for about a euro each. That cost about fifty cents per dress. But we just sold them, right? We just made a profit with that marketing campaign.

H

Host55:02

Oh, I thought you got those for free.

P

Peer Swinkels55:03

No, no, no. We just sold beer with a dress for a price and we just made a profit with that marketing campaign.

H

Host55:10

Marketing where you make a profit. Was it Rutte who at some point had to help get those two women released?

P

Peer Swinkels55:21

No, that was Balkenende. Good guy. I called Balkenende, and he then connected me with Maxime Verhagen and Ernst Hirsch Ballin. So with Ernst — Maxime Verhagen was Foreign Minister. The problem I faced was that when the women were arrested, I had to go to South Africa myself to negotiate with FIFA. I was also on the list to be arrested. So I needed to negotiate but not get arrested, because otherwise I couldn't negotiate. I first tried to get immunity to enter the country without being immediately arrested at customs. That didn't work because only ministers sometimes get that, and by special exception the highest civil servant of Foreign Affairs. So that didn't work. And then eventually an oral deal was made between Ernst Hirsch Ballin as Minister of Justice and the Minister of Justice of South Africa that I would get safe passage. But there was no written proof. So I flew into the country without knowing exactly what would happen. And I eventually negotiated one-on-one with the then Secretary General of FIFA. I'm not allowed to ever talk about what took place in that meeting. But it was a remarkable conversation. I sat negotiating with that man for hours, and then spent another week with various lawyers dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Unimaginable over a dress. Yes, over a dress.

H

Host56:50

What else are you going to do in the coming years with Bavaria — or Royal Swinkels, I should say?

P

Peer Swinkels56:53

Yes, with the company. We're going to continue investing. We do that partly through greenfield projects, like in Ethiopia, Cuba, and so on. Partly through acquisitions.

H

Host57:07

Is it also something other than beer? Are you going more into soft drinks, or are you completely out of that?

P

Peer Swinkels57:10

No, we're still in non-alcoholic drinks too. So there's also focus on that. Because in Europe we also want to sell more non-alcoholic. The organic growth of our company comes from investing in non-alcoholic beer, investing in craft beers.

H

Host57:33

But would you ever go more toward Pepsi, more traditional soft drinks?

P

Peer Swinkels57:39

I think that's not the market where it's easy to win. The real traditional soft drinks — we were big in that with 3S.

M

Michel57:42

A fun little anecdote, because Peer came with those dresses. And Harold and Peer know each other too — they share the same last name. And I said: 'Damn, we really have to do something.' Peer said: 'Yeah, I've got gold in my hands.' So he wasn't going to wait. And that turned out to be true. But right after that there was a match — Netherlands-Spain — and we tried the same thing with fifty Sinterklazen.

H

Host58:16

Oh yes! With fifty Sinterklazen, we got the front page of the AD.

M

Michel58:22

But no international press.

P

Peer Swinkels58:27

But that's free press coming.

H

Host58:29

Well, that's a nice way to end it. Peer, you're great. Keep going. Without alcohol. Keep going. What a beautiful family business. We can really be proud as Dutch people. And maybe come back again, Peer, because I think we're only halfway through the fails.

P

Peer Swinkels58:50

Yes.

#31–CEO Peer Swinkels (Royal Swinkels): hoe het oranje-jurkje de FIFA op z’n kop zette

About Peer Swinkels