CMI 75th Anniversary Leading Lights with Deanna Oppenheimer

Hey Anne, how are you? It's great to see you. Yes.

Yes, very exciting.

Well I think it's absolutely at the heart of professional management or any management because to me, values, ethics, purpose - all of those things that probably in the past people might have said 'oh that soft fuzzy stuff' is really the north star of where you're going. And as the world becomes more and more complex, metrics become more and more challenging. I know we're going to get into that in a little bit, but really understanding what the true core is of your purpose and the values that underpin it become absolutely essential.

Oh I think so. I had an opportunity to participate recently in a discussion with a number of different non-executive directors about ESG, and that's one example of where people are looking to say, 'How do you look at your longer-term purpose and sustainability and how do you pull these things together under the organization?' Investors are asking for metrics - be very transparent, display them, state them, and actually put money against them to achieve them, and tie remuneration to reflect progress in those areas.

I think the challenge with anything when you start anything is that you start from the point you're at and you don't have the benefit of history or experience. I always used to describe when I first was a manager or new to a company that it was a little bit like being on a ruler with nothing behind me, and I kept feeling like you're going to fall off that end. The way you overcome that is a couple of things. One is time - you need some time in the seat. That's why I think it's a particular challenge for people who want excitement and to be challenged, but there is a benefit to being in roles for a while because you go through a full learning curve of the ups and downs. So one is just time in the seat. The second thing is the opportunity to learn. I am very blessed that I've had some fabulous mentors as well as managers and others in my life who have been willing to take the time and invest their talent in me to help me learn and advance. And those are things you can still do today - give yourself some time and find yourself a mentor. We'll touch more on mentorship and sponsorship a bit later on.

Well, let's talk about where we are right now with the workforce. Coming out of COVID, we got people out of the office in a couple of weeks. The real challenge now is getting them back into the office, and it won't be the same as it was before in my opinion. If I'm a new manager starting out, I always had the benefit of walking down the hall and there was somebody I could ask a quick question, or they'd pop me into a meeting and I got the benefit of physical proximity to learn on the job. That's trickier in these environments where we are Zooming or Teamsing or something else. So I think the key element for people early in their management career is to really balance how best to work virtually and what to do in person. That's a big challenge for companies too. But you don't want to bring people into a business to sit in front of a screen Zooming all day with others around them. I'm reminded of when I went into a newer company and texting had just come around. People were sitting at desks next to each other texting. We need to turn and talk to that person. So it's another element of complexity, but if we use both virtual and in-person resources to their best advantages, there will be real opportunities.

I think change is most productive from a position of strength and alignment. That means looking at how the change you control capitalizes on the company's strengths and how opportunities will come out stronger. At Tesco we went through a big change program that was well documented. Management took the business back to its roots but invested in new technologies and new approaches. So the balance is that you come from a strong core of values and purpose, but you are open to new learnings and a new approach going forward. I remember early in my career, a group of managers asked me, 'When does it go back to normal?' I understood then that a new normal means if you are evolving, growing, and competitive, it never goes back - it goes forward based on the strength from which you came.

Yes, I think a learning mindset is pretty crucial. The reason you have diversity in teams is that when you go through non-normal periods, bringing together diverse experiences and perspectives prevents groupthink. There was a great exercise early in my career: we were divided into teams and given a plane crash scenario in a jungle with a paperclip and other items. We had to get out alive. No individual got out alive, but every team did. It showed that bringing together the best of a team to meet an unprepared challenge works better than going it alone.

Well, one thing I've done as part of giving back is in Seattle, where I spend a lot of time, we started a nonprofit called Board Ready. It uses data and analytics to advance diversity in the boardroom. We do research and have a metric that measures diversity, and a talent vault where diverse candidates can register. When asked for recommendations, we provide them, and we work with corporations to advance the cause. I've been encouraged that over the last five or six years, the ability to network through non-traditional means has really advanced, partly because of the pandemic. Through webinars and other groups, there are many networking opportunities. The trick is to join them all up - we have 20 partnerships we tap into.

Looking at companies that have done well, they have targets and goals. They set a target, measure progress, and take a chance on some people. I remember when I started at a bank, the CEO said he wouldn't put just one woman in management because it would be either a great success or failure, but his goal was a third of women coming through. You also need development and support, looking at diversity on many fronts - ethnicity, experience. It takes a goal, metrics, and decisions to give people the chance to rise.

People are now alive to the issue that diversity is important. The challenge is how to do it - how to tap into networks and diversify. Our research and others show that diverse teams make better decisions, not just getting out of the jungle but out of business challenges. The difference is on progress. I would not have had my opportunities without several enlightened men who gave me chances. They saw the power of diversity and gave others opportunities. We need to make sure everyone sees that power and is committed to advancing it.

I think we need to look at where the disconnect and discontent are coming from. Is it because they believe they won't get advancement, or because they want to hold others down? As a leader, you need to understand the culture and address the challenge. In my view, you want the best person for the best job at the best time for performance across all fronts. When I work with organizations, the question often is, 'Can we find women with all these qualifications?' That's where networks help. It's true for people of color, all genders, age. We need to challenge people to get beyond their existing networks and build relationships, understanding that differences create a stronger balance.

A lot of it is training, but also meeting people and seeing them from different ways. I had a conversation with a board member who said gender diversity is something everyone knows about, but ethnicity is a multiplicity. The first key thing is to get out and meet people from underrepresented populations and learn from them. There's a knowledge, learning, and listening element. For those who shut their mind, I think a learning mindset and curiosity are essential for future managers. Not being the smartest person in the room, knowing you need to learn from others. If I were early in my management career, I would ask: Am I opening myself to new opinions, ideas, people, challenges? And do I surround myself with people doing that? Hunkering down and ignoring a large part of the population won't work.

If you're asking about metrics, measuring anything tangible that you can get data on never hurts. There's more capacity to do that now. Some areas require disclosure from the individual, and if the environment isn't safe, measuring is challenging. So getting empirical, verifiable data is important. In our Board Ready index, we've expanded components as we've gotten data. But measuring is only as good as what you do with it - do you advance it, communicate it, give transparency? We can't manage what we don't measure, but if we don't manage what we measure, that's an equal challenge.

Yes, absolutely. And there's no ulterior motive. This goes back to the culture, purpose, and ethics we talked about. If you have a strong base, that's helpful.

Yes, I also think it's really important that once you've done something, you... I used this example recently in my executive career, I managed a lot of different turnarounds of a variety of different things.

I remember at one point going in and people said nothing's been done. I said the way we're going to do that is make a list of everything you think needs to be done. Some may get done, others may not, but we'll go back to that list every time. Every time you see me, I'll bring up the list and say what's been done and what hasn't and why. I'll come back again, and you'll get so bored of me because it'll be the same metrics and the same things. We'll add things and knock them off, but it's going to be the same way. Consistency in management, in measuring, in communication. There used to be an adage I firmly believe: until somebody's heard it seven times, they haven't really internalized it. For somebody to hear something seven times, if you're the manager, you probably have to say it 70 times or more in 17 different ways to have had it heard and land. There's a difference between telling and landing intellectually and emotionally. Both are required to get action and move forward.

Oh yes, yes. I think though that technology is a double-edged sword. I remember sitting at a dinner a few years back in Seattle next to a young woman who was phenomenal and really bright. I asked what she did, and she said she'd been hired by a big technology company in Seattle. Her job was as a technical ethicist, focused on making sure that AI we're programming is done with all the ethics we need. That was a recognition that technology can be for good or for bad. Whether the right approach is to have someone overseeing from an ethical approach or to weave it all in, the point is that when you create technology and programs, you need to do it at the very beginning, not try to fix it after the fact. I believe technology can be a force for good, but we've seen the flip side where it can be a force for bad. It's incumbent on us to equally value those skills of values and ethics in development as we do the technical skills to program and get it out.

Well, on the positive side, as somebody who crosses continents for work, we learned that you don't always have to get on a plane. You still need to do it at some point, and I'm happy to be back traveling, but certainly there's a lot you can do in this format. The challenge is that it's very conducive to transactional interaction and highly consumptive. You can cram in 20 phone calls a day, and you've never gotten up from the screen. That double-edged sword has been a real challenge for mental and physical health. All things in moderation and balanced. Coming out of the pandemic, work styles are going to change. The second thing is that life could have been really challenging, but some families got to lock down together and others were torn apart. If there's one thing we learned, life is pretty short, and you need to focus on what's important every day. Extraneous effort, fighting, or politics is a real challenge. The third thing is that you can do things you thought you couldn't do pretty quickly if there's a burning platform. People who were trying to figure out remote working for years did it in two weeks. People who figured out how to deal with supply chain issues started doing it. That challenge brings innovation. Now, how do we do that as managers when we're not in a crisis state? That's worth a lot of learning and reflection.

There's a great definition of the difference between mentorship and sponsorship. A mentor is a brain to pick, an ear to listen, and a hand to give you a push in the right direction when needed. A sponsor is all of that plus they have the opportunity to open doors and give you experiences you cannot give yourself, and they're willing to do that. You may have many mentors in your life, but a few sponsors. Value them highly. I would not be anywhere close to where I am today without those mentors who became sponsors and gave me opportunities. I have a mantra: 'Give a chance, take a chance.' Take a chance means when you're coming up, you've got to put your head above the parapet, say you're willing to try, disagree, or make a mistake. Give a chance means once you're moving up, you bring others along through mentoring and sponsoring. I have the privilege of doing both. The great thing is you get back so much more than you give. I've learned so much in those situations. I'll always have time to work with people I can learn from and who hopefully learn from me. Mentorship and sponsorship are ways to give back. If you're not doing that or managing people who don't, I would question how strong a manager you can be. A learning mindset is absolutely vital for success in any walk of life. People we admire, like the Queen at 95, are still learning, engaging, and doing things. I can't speak highly enough; mentorship and sponsorship are absolutely vital.

That's always an interesting question. Because my difference in management was always being a woman in a lot of different settings for over 40 years, and the fact we're still having this conversation is challenging and sad. A fairer and better society is one where we're not focused on who's at the table, but what the table is doing, and that we all have access and inclusivity. I want to say a minute about inclusivity because it's really important. One reason for having different role models at top levels is that it makes others who are not reflected in that group feel they can be included. Inclusivity is about making everybody at the table feel they are included while getting more people to the table. Once you get them there, you don't want them to look around and say this is not where I should be.

Ruth, that's a really good question. It comes down to a commitment to diversify your board. In the boards I've been part of or chaired, we've gone back to the idea that we will keep looking until we find the right person with the skill set we want. There's also a balance. For example, at Hargreaves Lansdown, one of the first people I recruited was a technologist. A technologist is an underrepresented skill set on a board. To find a technologist who also sits on several FTSE 100 boards is not likely, but that's okay because boards are a team sport. We had other seasoned NEDs. That holds true for a person of color with particular expertise. Plan board succession with how you are going to diversify and hold yourself accountable.

At IHG, a hospitality business, that fits the description perfectly. There are innovative things businesses are doing. One is recognizing that some people must go into those settings, so there needs to be balance and support. Second, some companies offer paid time off for those workers to spend with kids, volunteer, or care for parents. Third, maybe there's a day a month where everyone who works from home comes and works in that setting, not their job but helping as a housekeeper. There will be issues with living wage, compensation, and recruitment. Understand what workers want and what would make their job more interesting, then do what you can.

This is a challenge of culture and values alignment. If you're in an organization where the first defense is to speak up and say this is not aligning with what's good for the client, colleague, or whatever, and give solutions. If not heard by your manager, go to their manager or HR. Be consistent with the message. Demonstrate solutions in your area. If all that fails, you have to assess if life is too short and whether this is a place you want to be. There are more opportunities now. The first move is to get creative and constructive on communicating solutions and demonstrating them in your area.

It's a mutual attraction. You don't go to the grocery store to find a mentor. First, networking events are important. If you see someone, write to them: 'I saw a profile, I really admire this piece you did, here's what I've done, here's our shared mutual interest.' Sometimes that works. Mentoring comes as much from people who work for you or with you as from people at the top. Sponsorship happens more at the top. Learn from people with skill sets you want to see. If they can't mentor, ask for a recommendation or introduction to someone who can broaden your network. I got a job once from talking to my dentist who knew someone. It's back to focused communication of what you're looking for.

I love diversity of interests. I try to have as many or more younger friends than older friends. I have a phenomenal set of friends, family, and colleagues who challenge me. I like to learn. I read a lot of board materials and try to read broader literature. Podcasts are a big fan. I try to lead with questions more than statements. My mom always said you have two ears and one mouth for a reason.

Thanks, Anne.