Like Prime Minister Modi, he's a big picture man. I believe that I am one of the very few chosen ones. JR Data was there. Adjit Bidda was there at that time. If these guys can make it so big, I'm much better than all three of them. I'm never going to retire. So you have a problem. I told my son especially a huge credit I gave of whatever I've done in my life to Mumbai, city of Mumbai. Ambition is to become number one steel producer in the world.
What do you remember as some of the learnings that you had when you were a child? And from your parents?
Yeah. So, a large family has its huge advantages. Now we don't have, I have three kids which is also like large kind of standard. Yeah. So my kids all three of them are now married. So at that time, living in a joint family with nine of us and then my uncle had three four kids, so we were all friends growing up together. The biggest learning in a joint family is to share. We learn to share. It's not that everything came as mine. You have to share. If we had fruits, everybody would share. In the mango season, 50, 55, 60 years ago, fruits were seasonal and rare. So if a couple of mangoes came home, we would all share. My mother made sure we all share brothers and sisters.
You learn sharing. Learn how to also get along, how to negotiate with family members because if you're selfish, you're not going to survive. They will put you on the side.
Yeah. So you learn sharing. Orange season... You have to be part and parcel of the group.
Yeah. That's a huge learning in today's time in nucleus families. The kids find it difficult, especially those who have single children. I think it's very sad actually. I feel very sad if you are a single kid, you have no sibling to go back to as a support system.
So what were your dreams at that time when you were growing up and you were still in Hisar, maybe you'd still not gone into engineering school yet. You've not left home. What did you think you wanted to be? Just somebody like your father, a business leader?
Yeah. Actually I don't remember. No great young people... A huge credit I give of whatever I've done in my life to Mumbai, city of Mumbai. Wow. Yeah. Because this is an amazing city. I've lived in Delhi, Hisar, Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore. These are the four cities I've lived. But nothing can be as amazing or as energizing as Mumbai. So when I just came in, I met Wala Bansali, the founder of Inam. He was a little older than me. He used to meet me and we were young. He told me, 'Sajjan, if you want to do well in life, come with me, I'll take you somewhere.' I said okay. So he took me to Reliance AGM. I said, 'Why? I'm not a public company. Why are you taking me?' So I got a real shock to see what it was. Then on my own, I went to Hindalco's board meeting AGM, then to Tata Steel AGM. Ratan Tata was there, Rajit Bida was there. Then my ambition started to kick in. I said, 'If these guys can make it so big, I'm much better than all three of them.' I said they are not engineers. Adita was engineer. They look much more ordinary than me. I look much better, I'm fitter, I have more energy. I have three more brothers with me who are equally good. So I thought our group can be something different. We have to be different. So I went to my father first. I spoke to my older brother. He said good idea. I said we should go public as a company. We must list our company. We must grow big. So then I went and spoke to my older brother and he agreed. Then Ratan was the finance guy. My older brother was projects. Ratan was finance and I was just entering. So all three of us went to dad. Dad, we need to go public and make it big. My dad said, 'But we are very big. We are doing very well. What do you want to achieve?' So I had to explain about Reliance, about Tata Steel. He said, 'Leave them. Are we not happy? Are we not doing well?' But we had a little argument over dinner and at the end he said, 'Okay, if you three agree, I have no problem, let's go.' Naven was still very young. So that's how we started to create ambition, believe in building big, and that's how things changed from there on. So I give a lot of credit to Mumbai because of the energy in this city.
The whole ethos, the culture of... and in those days, things have changed. Those days Mumbai everything was mega. Delhi was like a small town from a business perspective. Governance wise, Delhi was very poor. Mumbai was very high. Shareholders were all here, stock markets were here. So this was the city. Who mentored you? One is of course taking you around and showing you, but I don't know if anybody really mentored you. Did you have any one mentor? Or we just learned because... You famously don't maintain a diary and you don't make any notes. The other day I had our common friend Hush Mariala, who is meticulous, makes all his notes, files them away, and looks at them 5 years later. You famously don't have any of that. So from this small company, which you built up, and we'll come to Jindal Vijay Nagar, you actually created this whole empire where you are known for your execution skills. You have amazing teams, you are able to raise mega finances. You're investing 75,000 crores every year. So where did you learn all this, to be so organized in your companies without a scrap of paper and without anybody mentoring you?
No. So I actually grew up watching my dad. My dad was also not very like me, I don't keep any papers. My dad never had any diary or any paper. He would tell his secretary. I'm also very similar. I'll tell my secretary, nowadays because of WhatsApp, I just forward it to my secretary to remember. So while growing up, in business... sorry, what was the question? I lost it.
How did you learn to create an organization?
No, it is like so my real mentor is my father in that respect. I watched him very closely and also when I moved to Mumbai, I watched him from a distance. He was a real mentor. He always believed in giving us independence. He gave me tremendous independence. Whatever I wanted to do, he allowed me to do, which is unbelievable. Otherwise, the old man tries to control you, especially if you're four. But he just allowed me to do whatever I wanted, allowed my older brother, Ratan, Naven. We all have excelled because of my father. He gave us exposure and told us to take risk, don't worry about the risk. I have this famous thing that I say: if something goes wrong, I will pack up my bags and go to Hisar. That's my safe heaven. We feel so comfortable there. So we can take a lot of risk. When I was building Vijaynagar, there was a time when the technology failed and there was a complete collapse. But I never once had the feeling that I will collapse or fail. I had this huge strength and support system of my father and brothers. We wouldn't monetarily want to get from each other because then you feel low in the family. You go to them for emotional support. They are also growing and need capital, so they will not say no, but it's a little... None of us has gone through difficult periods, but all four of us have at different times. The best part is that we supported each other. Whoever got into difficulties, the other brothers supported. That is a very big strength in our family.
But I still want to stay for a moment. You take very big risks. You took the risk when you built this Vijaynagar steel plant. You chose a new technology, which nobody else in India had chosen. It was only the second plant in the world. It's very similar to my own family story of choosing new technologies. The electric arc furnace, continuous casting, the EOF. First was in Mukund, I think, second or third in the whole world. Completely different technology, lots of risks. So we also learned how to take risk. But you took a mega risk, and even now you continue to set up very large projects, and you say you have no fear of failure. It doesn't come to you at all.
No, no, no. I think the word fear or failure is not part of me. I don't want to sound arrogant, but when we were growing up, it never came into us.
What gives you that strength or that confidence?
No, I think the word fear or failure is not part of me. I don't want to sound arrogant, but when we were growing up, it never came into us.
You were not brought up with fear.
Not brought up with fear.
So you fall, you get hurt, you get up, you run. The whole attitude was of moving forward always.
There's a concept in life called fail forward.
So you fall, you fail, you get up and move forward.
Yeah. That is what my father taught, or not. He never taught us anything. He never told us do this or don't do this. But we just followed him. We saw him riding a horse. Okay, that's a good idea, we'll ride a horse. He will not tell me to ride a horse, but there will be another horse. Naven is a polo player, he's got hundreds of horses because he loves polo. That is in our family. We don't have that fear. So that to me is a very big lesson to everybody: not to have fear and not to fear failure. That is the most paralyzing thing. Suki, that happens when you are born because we were nine of us. We didn't have this overprotected environment. If we go and play cricket and a ball hits and it's bleeding, it's okay. On one Diwali, Naven, my younger brother, was probably 15 or 14. He lit a bomb, put a can on top of it, and it burst too soon. The can cut his hand, a big cut. He didn't tell anyone. He took the car at 15 or 16, drove to the hospital, got stitches done. Diwali day, we were still cracking crackers on the other side of the garden. He got the stitches, put a tape on it, and came back. Then everybody asked, 'Where is Buntu?' My mom asked, my dad asked. The watchman said he went to the hospital. My mom gave him a slap. She said, 'You went, you got cut, you are stupid.' There was nobody sympathetic towards him except my sisters. So that is the environment we grew up in, and that is why we are very rough and tough. We don't care. Now my grandkids are so overprotected. So I keep telling my daughters and my son, let them fall. The more they fall, the better they will become. Otherwise, one servant is this side, one servant is that. So I try to give advice to my children, but very little, very rarely.
Okay, that was one of my things I wanted to ask you. What is it that you have taught your children? You talked about your father and the influence he had. What about you and your children? Are there things you've consciously tried to teach them, and what do you think you've unconsciously taught them?
No. So I seriously follow my father's way of doing things. I really think my father was a real institution. He brought us up like when I got into business, he never told me to do this or don't do this. He gave me a separate business. He told me, 'This factory in Mumbai is not making money yet, but it has a lot of potential. If you work hard, you can turn it around. If you turn it around and make money, you can grow your business. Otherwise, I will take care of your day-to-day living, but that's about it.' So he gave me the business and told me that's it.
So what have you done with your kids?
So my daughters and my son, I've told them that whatever you want to do, I will support you. I will help you establish that. But thereafter, you have to work hard. You have to grow that business. You have to take it to a different level. Otherwise, I'm doing my own business. I'm pretty young. I still feel I have many years to go, and I'm not going to retire at all. I will retire the day I really retire. So I'm never going to retire. So you have a problem. I told my son especially that you have a problem: I'm always going to be there running my business. So don't think you will inherit my business very easily. By the time you will also be in your 60s. So why wait for me? You grow your own business. But all three of them have a lot of fire in their belly. They want to do.
So what are the things that you would like to say to them, but you know we sometimes hesitate as parents not to give too much gyan to children.
So it's not worthwhile giving them too much gyan because they are also very smart, very intelligent. But I'm like friends with my kids.
You have open conversation.
