Exklusivt med Hedenmo: Göran Persson om hotet mot den amerikanska dominansen

I'm on my way to Göran Persson. What does he think about the new US policy and all of Trump's initiatives? How is the cleanup after the money laundering scandal at Swedbank going? And how has his journey from working class to wealthy large-scale farmer changed him?

Göran Persson from Vingåker was born in post-war Sweden. He became involved early in social democracy. At age 40, he was appointed Minister of Education, then Minister of Finance, and from 1996 Prime Minister and party leader for a decade. Today he is chairman of Swedbank. Göran Persson is married to former Systembolaget CEO Anitra Steen.

Göran Persson, nice to meet you here at Swedbank's headquarters in Sundbyberg. How often are you here?

You have been the bank's chairman since 2019, and were recently re-elected. Your assignment includes cleaning up after the money laundering scandal, as you yourself have put it. How is that cleaning going?

There are threats of multi-billion fines. There are threats of this and that.

Do you know when the decision will come?

At the annual general meeting in March, a record dividend was paid, over 21 kronor per share. Can you afford that if there are huge fines?

Donald Trump is spreading anxiety and uncertainty in large parts of the world with his many initiatives. I'm thinking particularly of the trade tariffs. What do you say about his tariff policy?

That probably wasn't in the calculation. How can he do this then?

What are you thinking of that is being removed?

Doesn't he understand economics, or how do you interpret it?

What does that mean for the Swedish economy?

Criticism of the US, boycotts...

Between China and the US, a real trade war is now raging. What will it lead to?

Should we in the West stop regarding the US as a trading partner?

Are you thinking after Trump then?

Is it also too early to talk about a new world emerging in terms of trade and globalization in that way?

Should the EU forge closer trade ties with China?

In the 1990s when you were prime minister, there was a big fuss after you had been to China. You came home and talked about what political stability means for economic development. You were criticized, as if you had praised an undemocratic system. How do you remember that?

What would you have said instead?

Did you feel misunderstood?

About China in the 1990s, do you regret what you said about political stability?

No, they haven't. But we'll see if that trend reverses.

What do you think about the Sweden Democrats?

What do you think about the Centre Party with the new party leader Anna-Karin Hatt?

Was it right for Sweden to join NATO given the changed stance of the US?

Can you understand the US stance here, that they are tired of holding Europe under their arms?

What do you mean the US has to lose by reducing its engagement in NATO?

Sweden and other EU countries now seemed shocked and caught off guard that the US wants to withdraw and turns its back on Europe in security policy. But as you say, there were signs earlier. Biden hinted at this direction. Should the EU have prepared better?

As we record this, it is exactly 80 years since Victory Day. That's what you're referring to, the Second World War, when Europe last armed.

Several Swedish companies paid for Trump's inauguration. Ericsson and Swedish Match. What do you think about that?

And in its annual report, Ericsson has replaced the words 'diversity' and 'inclusion' with 'equal treatment' and 'equal opportunities'. It should no longer be seen as a goal but an ambition. What do you say about that?

Göran Persson, in an election debate in 1998 you said something that has often been quoted, amusingly enough also by younger people who were barely born when the words were spoken. You and Carl Bildt had a debate, and it was about class society. 'I think I've worked more with people who have been in difficult situations than you have. I probably have done. I don't think you really know the depth of the misery that can strike. When I've worked with such people, also in other countries, it's very much about giving a job, giving dignity, giving them the opportunity to develop. Please tell me, Carl Bildt, about the big, beautiful world. Please tell me about new IT investments and new airplane models, but do not tell me about the Swedish class society. I have seen it, I grew up in it, I hate it. My entire political career will be devoted to fighting class divides, where single mothers pay for tax cuts for the better-off.' Yes, that was indeed... Say it. Yes, but... Sometimes the formulations are very clear. And that was good. Yes, many people... Since it's so quoted, I assume more people think so. Was it planned? I can probably think it was. This part, 'Please tell me about new airplane models,' that was probably something I had in the back of my mind. That was Carl Bildt's great interest, those things. He wanted to come back as prime minister then, and I had my first election as prime minister. He is very oriented toward distributional issues and justice, and I understood that it would come from that direction, and then I would take this. But then it turned out much better than planned. So partly planned and partly spontaneous. Absolutely, it has to be spontaneous. One cannot have a debate from a script. You have to enter a debate with a will, with an intention, and with a message, and then it is the surroundings and the development that determine exactly how you will deliver it. That's when it becomes lively and interesting. That was very good, I think. Yes, you are... I haven't seen it in a very long time. It was fun to see.

Since you said that, you yourself have become very rich. Yes, I probably have. 200 million, something. I don't know how much... You don't keep track? No, I actually don't. I keep track of most things regarding the economy, but my own I haven't been particularly interested in. Just the chairmanship at Swedbank gives almost 3.5 million kronor per year. It is a well-paid assignment, like other bank assignments. How would you say wealth has affected you? It probably has in some way, even if I don't want to believe it. It's important. I am still very marked by having had an upbringing and a large part of my life under small economic circumstances. I am very careful with spending on myself. Still? Yes. You are stingy with yourself? How does that manifest? For example, not investing in clothes, buying poor food, actively avoiding such things. You look at price tags? Yes, I do. Why do you think that is, when you no longer need to? It probably sits quite deep. If you grew up under such circumstances, you have had a daily economic responsibility all the time. For yourself and your family. Mom always said to me: 'Don't buy until you have the money in your hand.' 'He who is placed in debt...' Yes, that's her idea, really. That is sound, very sound. And very many people have been tricked into buying before they had the money in their hand. I have always argued a very simple principle, both in companies in the public sector and for myself: You must ensure that your income is larger than your expenses. Stick to that principle, and it works.

Regarding your own wealth and perhaps other Social Democrats' money, it is sometimes claimed that it is not compatible. One cannot be a Social Democrat and wealthy. When you moved to the large farm in Torp and so on. It is an agricultural operation we built from scratch. But you remember the debate? Oh yes. But it's quite remarkable. A Social Democrat is not allowed, through hard work, to achieve a good economic situation. Then you are no longer allowed to be part of it. That is a deplorable attitude. I am a Social Democrat primarily not because I was poor, but because I believed in the values and ideas. And they apply, regardless of your economic standard. That is important for Social Democracy. I think the thoughts go something like this: one should not care about money if one is interested in a more equal society. One needn't strive to enrich oneself, but if you don't have your finances in order, you become very poor. Even if you have very little money when you start. It's very important. If you are going to lift people's situations through joint efforts, the economy must be under control. You must have order. You cannot borrow money for welfare on the American financial market. That doesn't work. We actually have to pay for that ourselves. I made that journey politically, and today I see those ideas coming back—that now we should borrow. For defense, 300 billion. What do you say about that? I don't believe in that at all. Borrow at all? We have such low national debt. Yes, but having low national debt also means we have low interest rates on our debt. If we had the same debt level as France, we would in Sweden pay 50–60 billion more in interest each year. That money we could use for something else than lowering taxes for the richest. We could put it into defense, for example. No, for heaven's sake, don't start messing around now that we have got the economy in order. So you don't think we should borrow anything to build up defense? If you are going to borrow something, you should also combine it with raising taxes. So you want to raise taxes then? For everyone? Yes, naturally. Defense is something that is about securing the safety of the next generation—also my own, but we are soon on our way to a better world. But the next generation, and we just pass the bill on and we ourselves don't pay anything. That is wrong. We also have a responsibility and we should be part of paying. But for those who have difficulty making ends meet, and there are many today with rising food prices and until recently very high interest rates, maybe it sounds much better to have higher national debt instead of higher taxes. If the national debt were free, I could understand what you're saying. But it also has to be paid. It might not feel as tangible. No, but it has to be paid. And there is nothing as dangerous in economics as becoming confused. That money is not ours. We have borrowed it from someone. It incurs interest, and that interest will be paid by my children. And I'm rearming defense now. No, one actually has to have some morality. You don't agree with the Social Democrats. I don't agree with anyone today, it seems. Everyone thinks we are so well off now that we can borrow. We are well off precisely because we don't have debt. We must understand how it connects.

Göran Persson, you have turned 76 recently, but you are fully active. Working and going. Chairman of Swedbank, you have consulting assignments, and you run a large farm. Don't you ever get tired?

Now we are going to look at a picture of you from a long time ago. How old might you have been here? 12–13, maybe. 14. Do you remember the context? No, but I've seen the picture before. I think it was taken by my uncle. He was married to my father's sister. He was a photographer down in Halmstad. His name was Göte Karlsson and he took a lot of pictures of us when we grew up. So we have a fantastic treasure to draw from. If you were to say something to that young guy, the young Göran, something about life, something he should know, what would it be? Yes, it's very... Off the top of my head... 'You won't get anything for free. Everything you want and want to do, you have to do yourself. But when you do it yourself, you should know that around you there are people who think you are good, who like you and want to help you. But when it comes down to it, to the decisive moment, it's up to you to take the initiative and work hard.' We should end where we started, here at Swedbank. Your former CEO Birgitte Bonnesen was sentenced by the Court of Appeal to prison for gross fraud. That is very, very unusual. What did you think when that happened? I think a lot, of course, but at the same time I have to be careful. It is a process that is still ongoing, and I should not interfere. Right now it is subject to review in the next judicial instance. It is of course very tragic for her part. Do you have contact with her? No. I have been careful not to have contact with that generation of leadership at Swedbank. I came in under such special circumstances that it was necessary for us to move on. So it was not the old leadership I primarily contacted. Do you know how she is now? No, I have no knowledge of that.

Göran Persson, thank you very much for letting us come and interview you. Thank you for taking the time.

No, Göran Persson is definitely not on his way to slowing down. I almost got the feeling he misses the heat of the old days. I wonder if he will be right about Trump's tariffs. Will he really back down? Well, he who lives will see. This is a podcast from EFN Ekonomikanalen. Responsible publisher is Leo Lagercrantz.