特別鼎談：倉田英之氏 x 隈研吾氏 x 春日秀之：AGC | Fluon 50周年の歩み。そしてフッ素樹脂の未来。

Thank you for the introduction. I am Hideyuki Harugai from Kided Gas 1896. I have various connections with Mr. Kurata, and we even share the same first name, Hideyuki. I feel a strong sense of kinship. Mr. Kurata approached me about this project. Fluorine resins were born within our company, and it's been about 50 years. He suggested producing something for the 50th anniversary of ETFE, which can be used for things like business pillows. We consulted with Mr. Kuma, and he designed this object.

I think it's a very gentle material. When we talk about transparent materials, there's glass and acrylic, but glass doesn't have that skin-like softness. I believe the future of architecture is moving towards the softness and gentleness of living organisms, and ETFE is a key player in that. I've been paying attention to it and using it for a while.

It has excellent weather resistance and doesn't degrade under UV light, and it's strong. But it also has an aesthetic appeal.

I was first attracted by its aesthetic appeal and found it interesting. When I researched it, I discovered it has incredible high-performance functions. That came second.

Indeed, from its appearance and feel, it's also a functional material. I think there are still many people who haven't noticed the charm of ETFE. Through this object, I hope many people will see it and realize its potential for use in many more places.

Yes, but from now on, the way it's used will be different. Previously, it was an extension of curtains, a transparent curtain. I think it will be used as a completely different kind of transparent material. In 20th-century architecture, buildings were made of concrete and glass, or steel and glass. The combination of ETFE and other materials represents a new stage in architectural history. I think it would be interesting if ETFE leads this new stage.

Yes, it started as a film, but its weather resistance and transparency have led to its recognition as a structural material for architecture. It's being used all over the world, and laws in Japan have also been updated to accommodate it. The possibility of using it instead of concrete and glass is very interesting.

Basically, it's a sheet, so it can be infinitely long. Unlike glass or acrylic, which require frames or joints, ETFE can create infinite spaces. The concept of infinity really appeals to the human heart. I'd like to use it in that way. This time, we made a small, bubble-like object, but I'd also like to create something like an infinitely large window using a long sheet.

At Shimogamo Shrine, I created a temporary structure for a movie. The character Yoshitsune carried a portable dwelling. The idea of making it small enough to carry is exactly what ETFE could be in the modern era. And it's not restricted by size.

Glass production started in 1907, but the chemical business started in 1917. In 1907, glass was a necessity. During World War I in 1914, we couldn't import raw materials for glass, so we decided we had to make soda ash ourselves. That was the beginning. To make chemical soda ash, we had to electrolyze salt and produce alkali. As a byproduct, we got chlorine. We started using that, and then we needed to do something with the chlorine. We couldn't just sell it, so we derived chloroform, an anesthetic. The raw material for that was natural gas, which we brought from Chiba. At that time, the world needed highly functional and weather-resistant resins like ETFE. So we had to derive it from fluorite, which we brought in, and reacted it with the chloroform derived from natural gas. That's how it started, driven by necessity after the war, and it has evolved into what it is today.

So, Mr. Kurata, the reason AGC is involved with fluorine is that during the war, materials were hard to get domestically, so they tried to procure everything themselves. They created the manufacturing process for fluorine resins. It's all done in-house. It's interesting that they found a way to do it domestically.

Yes, we must build a sustainable society, and we must actively promote it. The lifespan of ETFE resin is long. With regular resins, they degrade before they can be recycled, maybe in 3 years. But if this lasts 30 years, it can be reused about 10 times. This means we don't need to produce new resin or use the energy to recycle it, which contributes to reducing CO2 emissions. That's one point. The second point is that it's easy to recycle because it's long-lasting and durable, making reuse easy. And as I mentioned, when it's decomposed, it can be turned back into natural materials and remade. It's a very versatile material that can be part of both large-scale and small-scale circular loops.

Yes, Mr. Kuma and I often talk about this. CO2 and plastics are things humans created for convenience. They are very useful, but if left as they are, artificial CO2 causes global warming, and plastics remain forever. I think this applies to building materials too. It's important not just to use them, but to actively return them to nature after use. Most people in the architecture world don't know that films like this can be recycled. I'd like to show people concrete recycling facilities.

Yes, ETFE can be melted down again. For agricultural films or wood coatings, if we can collect them, we can melt them and reuse them. If we can build a social loop for this, like with PET bottles, we can reuse it. We want to step into that. We need to build recycling systems with various industries and regions to make it even easier to use.

I think up until now, fluorine has mostly been used in parts, making it invisible. But ETFE is the only fluorine resin used in exterior applications. So it has aesthetic appeal. I've always thought it has aesthetic appeal, so this is also a promotion for fluorine resins. Other resins are mostly used in parts, inside cars or plants, so they can't really be shown. That's why this opportunity is important. Mr. Kuma might not know, but even if he uses it in various places, it's important to let people know about it.

Yes, I want to show it with concrete examples. This time, it would be great to show the various transparencies it can have, and the smooth, slick feeling when you touch it. That's a very attractive quality as a material. It's smooth but not like glass; it's soft yet slick. I hope people can feel that.

Yes, they are naturally derived. Glass originally controlled light. In the past, it was about letting light in. Now, it's about controlling heat and blocking it. With 5G, it's about controlling radio waves. In that sense, glass is a conduit for controlling various things. Glass is called the 'king of information.' Adding ETFE, a transparent structural material, makes it even more of a 'king,' allowing for control in many ways. Including the warmth you mentioned, the surface can be modified, made rough, or made less visible. Various functions can be added.

There could be combinations. Light is essential for humans. What I find amazing about ETFE is that its light transmittance is even better than glass, and it lets in more UV light. That's why it's used in stadiums for growing grass.

I'm looking forward to it. Yes. So, Mr. Kuma, I hope this is an opportunity to create a space or product combining AGC's glass and ETFE.

I'm interested. The previous use of ETFE was like an extension of agriculture, creating large domes. But it can be used on a much smaller, more human scale. I'd like to challenge myself by combining it with other materials in those familiar settings.

Yes, it's a material that society needs and can't do without. It controls light. I hope we can actively create recycling systems.

I see living things as a model. Architecture has been about artificial objects, but now we're in an era where we must consider how close we can get to living things. For that, this material is the most advanced and cutting-edge. I want people to actually feel that in this public pavilion. It's like a cell. It's high-tech, but you can feel its texture. It's a material that can harmonize with nature and humans. A cell membrane has a very important function. It's not just a wall; it's a membrane that controls what comes in and out. ETFE already has that control performance. We can add various functions to it. I want to explore its possibilities further. We can put in what's needed. It's about selectivity. Mr. Kurata, you mentioned application development. Yes. I hope AGC will work with various creators to expand its use. The functions we discover through this can be turned into products for everyone to use. It can expand infinitely, as you said. I want to expand it further. Thank you for this opportunity.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.