President and CEO, AICPA (and CEO, Association of International Certified Professional Accountants), American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA)
AICPA’s Mark Koziel: Why CPAs Are Here to Stay | AICPA Engage 2025
On this special episode of THRIVE, join host Gene Marks as he sits down with Mark Koziel, CEO of the AICPA, live from AICPA Engage 2025 in Las Vegas. Together, they explore the future of the accounting profession with a spotlight on the transformative role of AI. Mark explains why CPAs will remain indispensable, shares how technology is shaping the industry, and breaks down the essentials of building client trust. Plus, hear Mark’s advice for aspiring accountants and his bold vision for the profession.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
• How AI and emerging technologies are transforming the CP...
About Mark Koziel
Mark Koziel, CEO of the AICPA and the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants, appeared on the podcast "Everything CPA and Private Equity" in June 2024, recorded at the AICPA ENGAGE conference. He discussed the profession's talent shortage, describing it as an "unstoppable" cliff, noting that the number of students graduating each year is lower than the number of CPAs retiring. He argued that firms need to find new ways to operate in response to this trend. Koziel also addressed the role of AI in accounting, stating that CPAs have the opportunity to manage controls over AI for their companies and to serve as finance partners helping business leaders ensure AI outputs are appropriate for decision-making. He mentioned that the AICPA is building a "simulator" for training new professionals, which he said would be scalable to firms of all sizes.
Transcript (126 segments)
G
Gene Marks0:00
Hey, everybody. Welcome to a special edition of THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast coming to you from the heart of the Engage conference here in Las Vegas. I am Gene Marks, and we're kicking off this exclusive YouTube series with a guest who knows the accounting profession inside and out. It's Mark Koziel. He is the CEO of the AICPA. And so what's on the agenda? Well, it's everything from why building client trust is more important than ever and what the future holds for CPAs, and, of course, the impact that AI is going to have on the profession. Lots to talk about. Let's get into it.
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Announcer0:37
Welcome to THRIVE, a Paychex Business Podcast, your blueprint for navigating everything from people to policies to profits. And now your host, Gene Marks.
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Gene Marks0:48
So, first of all, Mark, thanks for speaking.
M
Mark Koziel0:50
Thanks for having me.
G
Gene Marks0:51
Really glad that you're here. You've been kind of busy. First of all, tell me about the show, like Engage. I mean, I'm looking around. We're on the floor right now. There's a zillion people here. It seems like things are going well.
M
Mark Koziel1:02
Yeah, 5,000 people, this year. The energy is electric. You know, one of the things is I was there at the beginning when we put this together to say, you know, we need to bring these conferences together. And this was always part of the vision. And, you know, seeing that it to give them an opportunity to be together, all 5,000, but then also separate into their, you know, their tribes to be different and have a sense of community, really important. And it just the energy, the buzz had a lot of feedback, a lot of great conversations with members over the last two days.
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Gene Marks1:39
Great show. Any chance you guys ever doing this in Philly? Because it's like a pain in the neck to get out here.
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Mark Koziel1:43
I would love to if we could find a place to hold 5,000 or 10,000 is where I want to be.
G
Gene Marks1:48
So, I think I know a guy. I'll connect you.
M
Mark Koziel1:51
Okay, good.
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Gene Marks1:52
So, we want to talk a little bit about the profession. But first of all, you know, you're relatively recent taking over the AICPA. Why did you take this job?
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Mark Koziel2:01
Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I was here a year ago, which was a month after Barry had announced his retirement, and a lot of people coming up to me asking me if I was going for it. Oh, you'd be the guy. You should go, are you going for it? Are you going for it? And at that time, my standard answer was, I haven't applied, but I knew I was going to. And I just didn't want to engage in it. Everything that I've done in my career has prepared me for sitting in this seat today. Twelve years public accounting, three years doing media planning in political media and public affairs, which not many people, as CPAs have done.
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Gene Marks2:43
Agreed. And not that this organization doesn't have its politics, but obviously that comes into play.
M
Mark Koziel2:48
Oh, my God. And what we do for our members in D.C. and understanding the D.C. dynamic. So that piece and then coming to the AICPA in 2006 to run the small firm division, did that for 14 years. Left to go run an international association of firms before now coming back. All of that has prepared me to sit here. And I don't know anyone who could have had this role without having at least those 14 years that I had here before. Understanding all the complexities of the profession and what's coming at us.
G
Gene Marks3:23
Right. Your keynote yesterday was great.
M
Mark Koziel3:27
Thank you.
G
Gene Marks3:28
And some of the issues that you talked about, we're going to touch on right now.
M
Mark Koziel3:31
Sure.
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Gene Marks3:33
Let's talk about technology.
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Mark Koziel3:34
Yeah.
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Gene Marks3:34
Okay. To start with. So, will AI replace us?
M
Mark Koziel3:37
No, absolutely not.
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Gene Marks3:39
Give us your thoughts.
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Mark Koziel3:40
It will enhance what we do. It will allow for us to do different things down the road. I believe we'll see that. You know, I had. I had a slide that I've been using because I like constantly. How many times have we heard over, you know, our lifespan of accountants being replaced by some level of innovation along the way? Right. And so I had to go back in history to figure out that in the 1930s was the invention of the electronic calculator that was going to put us out of business. The 1970s, 80s was the advent of VisiCalc and the spreadsheets that was going to put us out of business. The personal computer. Oh, my God. People could do business things themselves on their own computer. That's going to put us out of business. AI, you know, blockchain. We heard about that recently. AI most recently.
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Gene Marks4:29
The overall cloud workflows, all that stuff. Yep. Right.
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Mark Koziel4:32
You know, even something that takes technologies who are here today, like Intuit with QuickBooks and TurboTax. TurboTax is going to put the small firm out of business. And tax. And every small firm I talk to, they say, I welcome our clients trying TurboTax just once, because they're going to realize the value that we bring and they will mess it up so badly, we'll actually make more fixing it than if we had just done the return ourselves.
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Gene Marks4:58
So why hasn't all these technologies put us out of business?
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Mark Koziel5:02
I think because the profession keeps reinventing itself along the way.
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Gene Marks5:08
Right.
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Mark Koziel5:08
And it, you know, at the end of the day, and this is what I didn't realize coming into the profession, it's that client relationship that's paramount. So, the client is what drives what it is that we do. And as long as we continue to focus on that, they'll allow for us to come and do things for them differently based on what the innovation is allowing us to do.
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Gene Marks5:29
You know, my firm, we sell CRM software, and so we do webinars, and we're doing one, like next month, and it's on customizing one of the products that we sell.
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Mark Koziel5:39
Yeah.
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Gene Marks5:39
And the guy is an employee of mine who's doing the webinar was like, are you sure you want to do that? Because, you know, we're going to be giving away secrets. And I'm like, give them away. Because our clients watching this aren't going to be able to do this on their own.
M
Mark Koziel5:52
Yeah.
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Gene Marks5:53
At least it will make them smarter so they can ask better questions.
M
Mark Koziel5:56
Yep.
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Gene Marks5:56
But I just can't imagine, as a CPA, you know, our clients need somebody to interpret whatever AI produces. Right. That's the relationship part.
M
Mark Koziel6:07
That's right. And it... So, when we talk about AI where it is today, first of all, the firms are slightly further ahead, thanks to a lot of the companies that are around here with AI adoption into the tool that they're doing, or someone found a new problem of an existing software to create its own AI company to complement that particular piece. But then in business and industry, you have similar things, and they haven't necessarily adopted all of it. They may turn to the firm and say, you know, I don't want to invest in AI for this one particular application. But you guys already have it. That firm is going to sell it to multiple clients in a particular way. So that's first. Then you also have the idea that as AI gets adopted, there needs to be controls put in place. We're the controls profession. Right. Internal controls, internal control testing, oversight of internal controls, you have that piece, and then at the end of the day, it's going to be assurance over AI. As we continue to build our AI platforms, is it reliable? How do we provide assurance to people internally that as they use it, they're getting the correct answers and they use the right data to get there. All of that is going to continue to be what we do as a professional.
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Gene Marks7:26
Yeah, I agree. Your TurboTax example is a great example. I mean, TurboTax, great application. All that kind of stuff, but nobody, you know, it's like WebMD. Like, I mean, you have the sniffles, you look it up on WebMD, provides you some information and say you're still talking to your doctor.
M
Mark Koziel7:39
That's right.
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Gene Marks7:40
You know, so you're gonna be getting that kind of expertise.
M
Mark Koziel7:42
Because I went to WebMD, I had the sniffles and I thought I had, you know, stage four cancer.
G
Gene Marks7:46
Yeah.
M
Mark Koziel7:47
So, you know, I mean, all this self-diagnosis isn't necessarily the best thing.
G
Gene Marks7:51
You need the professionals to help you out with that. Still with technology. How about internally? I wrote about this recently in Forbes. There was a, there was a study that just came out ready that said that 80% of the users of the mobile version of ChatGPT, 80% are men.
M
Mark Koziel8:13
Really?
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Gene Marks8:14
20% are women.
M
Mark Koziel8:15
Right.
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Gene Marks8:16
And people are like, well, why is that? And of course, you know, you know, women are smarter than men. They're maybe they're, you know, they're more contemplative overusing this stuff. They're more whatever. But it's like a huge number. I thought that was like, you know, a fascinating thing. You know, when we look at our firms and our employees, people are concerned about AI replacing them or how they're going to be using it in their jobs based on that study. I mean, maybe more females have more concern than men. I don't, you know, whatever. What would you tell your employees?
M
Mark Koziel8:49
I would say that we absolutely have the opportunity to grow who we are and what we do. And that AI is not going to replace you, provided that we continue reskilling and upskilling you, to be able to embrace it, use it differently and interact with the client. I think client accounting services, such a great example. And you know, we had our AI symposium, AICPA and CIMA in March. And of the five insights that we had, number one is that, you know, bookkeeping is already automated and it has AI adopted in it. And then bullet number four was about advisory services. And advisory services started to see more AI. But you know, we started the conversation, you know, CAS 1.0 conversations, 14, 15 years old. Now we're on CAS 2.0 and that conversation's at least five to seven years old.
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Gene Marks9:44
Sure.
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Mark Koziel9:45
And that's really what AI is creating, is the move from 1.0 transactional to 2.0 advisory. And so, upskilling all of those folks we have on our cast team to be able to say these are how you should be interacting with your client, become paramount.
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Gene Marks10:03
Yeah, you talk about upscaling. You know, I just want to dig into that a little bit more. Like you use Microsoft Office and like me and like everybody else, you know, we're using like 10% of what it does.
M
Mark Koziel10:16
Yeah.
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Gene Marks10:17
So, it's like we're driving a car in Texas in August and we're not putting on the air conditioner because we don't know where the button is. Ridiculous. And nobody invests in the training. What I think it's an opportunity for the AICPA and I'm wondering what the organization might have planned or what you're thinking of to help the profession get upskilled.
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Mark Koziel10:38
Yeah. So, we're talking to a lot of the technology-related companies. We already have some of that embedded into like our cast training of that very directly. You know, tax has fallen a little behind. So, tax research.
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Gene Marks10:52
Yeah.
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Mark Koziel10:53
Is AI driven right now. And we have a partnership with blue jay through cpa.com and that's just exploding. I mean everyone's seeing the reliability of that and so. But tax prep isn't there yet. But we're having conversations with companies that are looking to get into that. And then audit. It's getting integrated. So, you know, all the work we're doing around DAS, so it's getting trained up with the tool and how AI integration can happen with it. And then, you know, conferences like these, making sure that we're focused on AI and upskilling its pieces of that and embedding that in the staff level training that we offer as well becomes really important.
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Gene Marks11:31
Let's pivot a little bit. We'll talk about recruitment, we'll talk about talents. Okay, why the talent shortage? Like why did this happen and what are we doing to fix it? And by the way, it seems like it's getting fixed. Am I wrong? Like, you know, we're starting to see data that's showing that there are more college kids taking accounting class or whatever. And by the way, it almost seems like it's taking the professor by surprise. So how did it happen?
M
Mark Koziel11:58
It's all I can say, Gene, is after it was announced that I was becoming CEO, everybody joined up, enrollment was up 12%.
G
Gene Marks12:06
It was unbelievable. Did you see the mobs?
M
Mark Koziel12:08
They were all down 6th Avenue spring semester this year. It's up 12%. You're all welcome profession for all the hard work I've done. Actually, no. And now I'm like fighting with our past chair and current chair. They're like, wait a minute, you can stop taking credit for now because we were in charge on the board of this profession. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. And so I think there's a variety of factors to it. First of all, I think the economy has softened. There is a sense of stability around having an accounting degree, and I think that's a big part of it. But I also think the pipeline initiatives that we have done are starting to see the improvement as part of it. And that has been three to five years in the making to make it happen. But we are our own worst enemy at times. And I always have told the story how, you know, I, I joined the profession in 1991. I graduated. I heard about Black Friday. That happened coming out of the busy season in 1990 where all of the firms laid off. You know, the SNL implosion happened, banks were going out of business, accountants were on the street left and right. Right. And so, then the following year, as I'm coming out and I walked by the career center, when they actually had to post names up on the wall of who was being interviewed, the number of interviews were half what they were the year before. And then we were hearing that the number of job offers were half what they were the year before. I was lucky. I had six first interviews. I got called back on five of the six. The one that didn't call me back was a firm that I spent most of my public accounting career with because I left to go to them three years later.
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Gene Marks13:52
Wow.
M
Mark Koziel13:52
And why did they need people three years later is because the year I graduated, they didn't hire anybody. And so now all of a sudden, they're like looking around, where are all the seniors at? Yeah, well, guess what? You didn't hire. And the profession did that. And so now all of a sudden, you know, that word got to the classes behind us and then people started leaving accounting to go into finance, computer science and all these things. And so the mid-90s became this, you know, built-up problem.
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Gene Marks14:23
Sure.
M
Mark Koziel14:24
And then that just kind of continued on and we were never able to fix it beyond that. So here we are in, you know, 2000s and we're seeing some slight improvements, but those improvements are only bringing us back to 2020 or pre-2020 numbers. We still have a lot of work to do.
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Gene Marks14:41
And what work will that be?
M
Mark Koziel14:42
You know, I think in our pipeline initiative, we had like, you know, seven or eight key areas. One of the big ones, I think is telling a more compelling story. I've said this for years. I used to say this to my firm. I did the recruiting for my firm back in the late 90s, early 2000s, and I go to the partners. And I said, is this firm good enough for your kid? And they look at me like, well, I talked my kid out of going into accounting. I'm like, well, that's a problem by itself.
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Gene Marks15:10
Yes.
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Mark Koziel15:11
Right. Like, if this career was good enough for you, should be good enough for them. Right. So, I said, but you know what I said, we're in Buffalo and I'm hiring somebody else's kid. And chances are I'm going to know the parents of that kid in some way, shape or form. It's a tiny town.
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Gene Marks15:28
Sure.
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Mark Koziel15:28
So I want to be able to look them into the eye and say, this is the right firm for me. And if it's not, partner, fix it. You're in charge. Let's make it happen. And I think we're starting to see even some semblance of people taking more control over their career. You know, there are so many different opportunities. If you don't like the firm you're at today, go find another firm. There will be the right culture out there somewhere. The opportunities are still there. Or, you know, business and industry, whatever it is the greatest profession in the world. Diversity of practice, what everyone does. You know, me spending three years as a media planner.
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Gene Marks16:05
Sure.
M
Mark Koziel16:05
I think I might have been the...
G
Gene Marks16:06
Only one ever that was a CPA.
M
Mark Koziel16:09
Exactly. And my firm, the political firm, used to actually promote the fact that I was a CPA with their political money.
G
Gene Marks16:15
Yeah.
M
Mark Koziel16:16
And, you know, there was a sense of, you know, trust in that.
G
Gene Marks16:19
Yeah. You know, it's funny, you tell that story. My story is that I'm a CPA proud to be clinging on to the certification. I call myself the world's worst CPA because to be like, if it's close enough, it's good enough. And that's not the kind of person you want to hire as a CPA. But I write a lot, and I cover financial stuff, and we sell a lot of technology and it is, having a CPA is as credible as it was 40 years ago when I first got it. And I meet CPAs, Mark, that were like, you know, CMOs of Fortune 200 companies that do media planners at, there's this credential that just basically says, you know, data and, you know, numbers. And I've had a few people I've talked to today that have said, the professor needs to do a better job telling that story. What do you think about that?
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Mark Koziel17:12
There are so many stories. That's what makes it like, you know. And we've had members say time and again, we need a marketing campaign around CPA. Okay, what are we going to say? I'm a partner in a large firm, I'm a partner in a small firm. I'm a sole practitioner. I'm in business and industry as a CFO. I mean, there's just. There's so many stories.
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Gene Marks17:34
Sure.
M
Mark Koziel17:34
How do we capture all that? And I think that's more important pieces. I want everybody to tell their story. You know what? We have 400,000 members of the AICPA. And, well, not just us. They're global in that number. 600,000. If you include the CIMA numbers that we have. If we could convince 25% of them to tell their story to someone else and convince them to become a CPA, imagine what our numbers do.
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Gene Marks18:02
Yeah, I agree.
M
Mark Koziel18:04
So, it can't be about. You want us to arm you with a tool to be able to. How to develop your story, to be able to tell it. Yeah, we'll do that. Right. But, you know, I've taken it upon myself. Well, before I came back to the AICPA, I went to all my Buffalo friends and I said, look, accounting is an incredible career. You should convince your kid to do it. And I tell you what, you know, tell me where you want to retire to. We'll get your kid to go to school for accounting. I will get them placed in that town so that they'll be there before you're ready to retire and then you can move down there after the fact.
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Gene Marks18:38
Fair enough. Fair enough.
M
Mark Koziel18:39
And everybody, just one. I want every one of our CPAs, just convince one kid to go to school for accounting.
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Gene Marks18:47
You have been in the profession for 100 years. 200? You've seen a lot of CPAs.
M
Mark Koziel18:52
I have.
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Gene Marks18:53
You've seen a lot of CPA firms. Tell me about the firms and the individual CPAs that have crushed it. Not, but you have to name names. But what do you see? What firms do you see now that are just. They're doing the right thing. And what, what are the right things?
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Mark Koziel19:09
You know, the right things. And I think it comes in a variety of sizes and shapes. Right. So, starting with the small firm first and foremost, I think for those firms who have built their lifestyle firm, they don't have to do it like other people do it. They have to do it for what is right for them.
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Gene Marks19:27
Sure.
M
Mark Koziel19:28
And building that lifestyle firm, working for clients that they enjoy and picking a niche that they enjoy and they are so passionate about it and they are so well connected to their clients, that is just such a great way to do business. As a small firm and then in the larger firm because it's gotten so complicated. I think a lot of larger firms, they've changed their governance model to be more of a corporate environment. Right. Having a truly dedicated CEO, a C-suite running the firm, a board that isn't developed based on, you know, having a representative of audit and a representative tax. So, it is a board to bring strategic direction to the firm.
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Gene Marks20:15
Yep.
M
Mark Koziel20:16
And they're the ones. And we've seen this develop over the last probably 10 years.
G
Gene Marks20:23
This kind of dovetails back to, we were talking about people, and you talk about firms doing it the right way. Talk to me about culture within firms. What do you see working? Is it just about compensation?
M
Mark Koziel20:35
No, it's not comp. And that's the thing. It's the firms that create a one fits one environment. Understanding that every employee is unique. I don't care if you have two employees or 2,000 employees. Every employee is unique. And being able to develop a career plan for each one of those individuals separately is the culture of choice. But, you know, it's also about how your managers lead and want to develop that next professional coming up. You know, I've always had the mantra that I want to replace myself with somebody else. I keep saying everyone's replaceable. Right. So coming out of, you know, my international association last five years, they replaced me with someone else. They're doing great and I'm really proud to see that. I left AICPA in 2020. They replaced me with others inside.
G
Gene Marks21:29
The world will continue to turn.
M
Mark Koziel21:30
The world will continue to turn. We all have to understand that. I think the firms will embrace that and develop people up. Those are the ones with the best culture.
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Gene Marks21:39
Two more questions and I'll let you go. If you were to quit your job as chair, as you know, running this organization, and I hope you never do, I hope you forever, you're running it. You're doing it and you're going to open up your own firm. You know, go back to being a, you know, a CPA in public practice. What kind of a firm would it be? What would you specialize in? What would you do?
M
Mark Koziel22:02
You know, it's funny. I used to talk about this all the time in my prior stint at AICPA. I used to say, when Barry fires me, what I will do is always.
G
Gene Marks22:12
Good to have a plan B.
M
Mark Koziel22:13
That's right.
G
Gene Marks22:13
Right.
M
Mark Koziel22:14
I will go out and I will say, start my own firm. It'll be a wealth management, financial planning, tax client accounting services firm for baseball players. Sure. Why not? Right. I mean, and I had a lot of connection to baseball. You know, baseball, you know, one of the guys I worked for in college, he signed with the Yankees in 1949. I'll give a whole. It's a whole other story.
G
Gene Marks22:39
Wow, okay.
M
Mark Koziel22:40
But. Yeah, yeah. But in any event, I used to say this all the time. And I said I would use outsourcing solutions. You know, there's a bunch of great technologies here like share prep and variety that you don't have to go to loan on tax. And I, and there are a lot of people smarter than me. Client accounting services, automate the heck out of that. And really about the client relationship and the wealth management piece, we did that at my old firm.
G
Gene Marks23:05
Yeah.
M
Mark Koziel23:06
So having that is a big of part piece of it to me is really important. So individual advisory services, client accounting advisory services, that would be the firm I'd start today.
G
Gene Marks23:19
You went to a Jesuit college in Buffalo.
M
Mark Koziel23:23
I did.
G
Gene Marks23:23
Okay. Whenever you graduated. And we won't disclose the year, but let's take you back to that year. And you're going to give yourself graduating college some advice. What would you have told yourself?
M
Mark Koziel23:34
I. 1991. So, I talked about that before. I would say, you've got this. Don't sweat it. You know, it was a hard journey to get you there. You did it.
G
Gene Marks23:50
You're gonna be okay.
M
Mark Koziel23:51
You're gonna be okay. Those loans will get paid off. You will meet the right lady along the way. You know, it's surreal to actually look back at what I struggled through to get to this point.
G
Gene Marks24:08
Yes. But we say the same thing about our kids. Like, if I had known how our kids ended up now.
M
Mark Koziel24:13
Yeah.
G
Gene Marks24:13
I mean, I could tell myself when they were back in seventh and eighth grade in middle school, it would have calmed things down a lot. You know, it does make it.
M
Mark Koziel24:22
Absolutely.
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Gene Marks24:23
Mark, thank you. It was great. Appreciate all of your insights. That was a lot of fun. I want to wish you best success running the organization. They could not have picked a better person.
M
Mark Koziel24:30
Thanks, Gene.
G
Gene Marks24:30
So, I'm excited for the future.
M
Mark Koziel24:31
Excellent. Thank you.
G
Gene Marks24:33
Appreciate it. All right, go and do whatever you're going to do and enjoy yourself. Go to sleep. Okay. Go to sleep.
M
Mark Koziel24:39
I appreciate that.
G
Gene Marks24:41
Do you have a topic or a guest that you would like to hear on THRIVE? Please let us know. Visit payx.me/ThriveTopics and send us your ideas or matters of interest. Also, if your business is looking to simplify your HR, payroll, benefits, or insurance services, see how Paychex can help visit the resource hub at paychex.com/worx. That's W-O-R-X. Paychex can help manage those complexities while you focus on all the ways you want your business to thrive. I'm your host, Gene Marks, and thanks for joining us. Till next time, take care.
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Announcer25:15
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