Rewe-Chef Souque: „Ich wusste: der will mich fertig machen – das hat mich angespornt“

Die deutsche Regierung mischt sich immer ein, wenn es um Verhandlungen geht. Das ist alles schlecht für die Inflation in Deutschland und Europa. Firmen wie Rewe, Edeka, Kaufland, Lidl könnten verhandeln und einen Filter schaffen, um Preiserhöhungen zu reduzieren, statt 80 Prozent zu akzeptieren. Das könnte der ganzen Bevölkerung helfen.

Ja, das ist ja eine Podcast-Premiere, wie ich gerade erfahren habe. Es freut uns sehr, dass wir mitmachen. Danke, danke.

Ja, manchmal schon. Deshalb dreimal oder fünfmal pro Jahr gehe ich schon in Paris shoppen. Der Großteil meiner Familie ist dort. Es ist eine sehr schöne Stadt, wo ich auch lang gelebt habe. Aber ich fühle mich in Köln extrem gut. Die Leute haben hier gute Laune, Karneval, Fußballclub – danach gibt es nichts außer Zentral. Man kann auch schnell wohin gehen, wenn man will. Und die Familie ist extrem glücklich hier.

Familie und Freunde. Die Stadt an sich jetzt nicht, weil ich die genug kenne. Aber die Leute, die ich nicht jeden Tag sehe – da gibt es viel Spaß.

Darum sind Sie da, wo ich bin. Paris ist sowieso nicht so gut für Allgemeinheit. In Paris kommen die meisten von der Provinz – es ist sowieso eine große Mischung, ein buntles Volk.

Dann lernt man langsam immer mehr Leute kennen, die sich vor lauter Feiern nicht zum Studieren kam.

Ich hätte die Möglichkeit gehabt. In den letzten Jahren gab es manchmal Angebote auch von französischen Unternehmen, ob ich zurückkomme. Aber ich habe mich sehr wohl gefühlt, und mit meiner Frau rief ich, die Entscheidung muss man sich allein treffen. Und neben den vielen Punkten für Rewe war auch ein Punkt, dass wir lieber als Familie in Köln wohnen wollen als in Paris.

Aber das ist ja nicht aktuell passiert. Und ich bin jetzt seit 26 Jahren bei Rewe und fühle mich sehr wohl. Und Sie wollen in Rente gehen?

Das ist zwar nicht vorgesehen, aber ich sehe schon, eigentlich müssten wir dann jetzt schon eine Fortsetzung in den Hauptcast einplanen, um herauszufinden, wie das gelaufen ist nach diesem Podcast.

Rewe Touristik und ich sind sehr motiviert. Es war der Haupttreiber. Ich meine, wir waren ja bei diesen Angeboten von Carrefour – die haben sich ja für mich super gelohnt. Das letzte Angebot kam 2016, und das war ja dann ein super Karriere-Booster für mich.

Nein, nicht ganz. Ich war lange bei Rewe, hatte viele wichtige Aufgaben. Seit 2009 der wichtigste – die Rewe Supermärkte in Deutschland geführt. Das heißt, klar ist dann die Erwartung, dass die nächste Stufe machbar ist, dass man als Betrachter genommen wird. Und deshalb, wenn er auf die Trage kommt, wurden Entscheidungen stärker ausgeformt getroffen. Die Vorstände der Rewe Group haben vielleicht ein bisschen forcieren können. Ich glaube nicht. Er war auch dafür, aber am Ende sind die Kaufleute insgesamt sehr selbständig für ihre Entscheidung. Und wenn die das anders entschieden hätten, hätte ich akzeptiert und respektiert.

Aber dann wurden sie gegangen, hab ich gesagt – da habe ich ja nochmal可以可以 sagen können, was man denkt.

Nein, noch dazu – Sie haben den Leuten aber das Messer gehalten.

Genau, niemand anderen genommen, weil ich das Meser gefunden hätte – es ist nicht besser. Alles war sehr, sehr entspannt.

Ich könnte schon pokern, das können Sie. Meine, alles andere wäre ja fatal. Es wäre eine fatale Schwäche, wenn der Chef von Rewe nicht pokern könnte.

Ist sowas auch – wissen Sie, ich habe im Handel von 6undEinkauf gestartet, das heißt, ich habe schon von Anfang an Verhandlungen geführt in viele Ländern in Europa für alle Warengruppen. Und es waren immer hart und sportlich. Bisschen unterschiedlich – pro Land gibt es unterschiedliche Kultur, ein Unterschied pro Warengruppe. Wenn ich beim kleinen Mittelständler anfange und dann aber mit einer Firma wie Procter & Gamble, die sagen: mag dieser Artikel oder nicht, 100 Prozent egal ob die Rewe den hat oder nicht, der geht zum nächsten – da kann man das magische kaufen. Aber wenn du in ein Land kommst, ist es extrem entspannt.

Aber jetzt zurück zu Ihrer Frage – zurzeit redet man von Beträgen, die man die letzten 20 Jahre nicht gesehen hat. Diese Preise sind von der Höhe – gab es die noch nie. Auch als die Wirtschaftskrise kam 2008 oder anderen Themen, das gab so etwas nie, dass es solche Preisumbrüche gab. Und die gibt es ja nicht einmal pro Jahr – hier kommen jetzt alle drei, vier Monate mit neuen Preiserhöhungen. Und ich sage: die wollen ihre Kosten weiter an uns Verkäufer weitergeben. Aber dass Krimi ist – viele wollen mehr als ihre Kosten. Und die Preise erhöhen, und das ist das Problem. Weil klar ergeben die Verpackungspreise oben – weil Aluminium oder Papier als Verpackung hochgehen. Klar gehen viele Rohwaren nach oben. Klar, die Logistik, Supply Chain oben – egal ob man Container von Asien oder Lkw-Fahrer in Deutschland, wo der Far East und Dieselpreis oben. Aber wir haben das Ohr – diese Erhöhungen, das heißt, wir können sehr gut messen, was ist nachvollziehbar und was nicht. Nachvollziehbar, weil wir nicht – wir haben mehrere Möglichkeiten. Unsere eigene Marke – ich kann genau gucken: 150 Gramm Chips, die ich habe – was ist eigentlich mehr? Dann habe ich ein konkretes Beispiel. Also wir sehen, wir haben eine Erhöhung insgesamt, und dann kann man gucken: Lieferant sagt er, 22 Cent für 100 Gramm hat jetzt eine Erhöhung – aber wir, die 70 Cent, die ich nicht habe – das kassiert er ja genau.

Sie ist aber vernünftig, weil er das entschieden hat, der sagt: ich versuche nicht einfach alles rauszuholen.

Also ich habe bei der Region eher ins Gemachte gemacht. Ich habe mein MBA Executiv Immobilie damals so als gemacht – die Avant-Methode, wo man ja – ich habe es nicht mehr im Kopf, das sind 20 Jahre – aber man muss schon mal gucken: was habe ich für Alternativen? Denn: wenn man verliert, muss man nicht ganz verloren haben. Deshalb muss ich es gar nicht gehen. Was habe ich für Alternativen? Man muss gucken, man muss versuchen zu verstehen: wo ist die Erwartung der anderen maximal? Aber das Beste ist einfach seine Arbeit richtig zu machen. Und seine Arbeit richtig zu machen ist zu prüfen: was habe ich, was bieten die anderen? Lieferant von der B-Kategorie – wenn ein Kaffee-Lieferant an drei kommen und fragen 5 Prozent, und einer fragt 30 Prozent – da sagen sich die: die 5 alle fragen, wenn sie sich nicht untereinander abgestimmt haben, was sie nicht dürfen, dann ist es wahrscheinlich eher realistisch die Frage. Und wer immer untragbar 30 Prozent rausholt – da sind ja viele Sachen, da sagt man: okay, wahrscheinlich muss man das akzeptieren. Aber mit der, die 30 Prozent will, dann wird man sicherlich auch daran gehen, weil man nicht – auch wenn er nein sagt, dann kann man mit den anderen Lieferanten, die vernünftige Anfragen haben, dann macht man mit dem 80 Prozent mehr Sortiment. Und mit dem Kollegen vielleicht, wenn man seine Artikel weniger stark präsentieren in unseren Läden – und darum geht es dann.

Aber ist ja sehr genau und harte Krieg. Ja, aber es ist eher umgekehrt – so zahlender Fall ist, dass es die Industrie ist, die entscheidet, uns nicht zu beliefern.

Das ist genau – das ist genau der Punkt, nämlich weil es – Edeka-Chef Markus Mosa und Sie auch attackieren ja gerne die Großkonzerne – oder da kommt ja meistens Druck von ihnen.

Jeden Tag muss ich auch sagen – ich bin nicht mehr so aktiv im Einkauf, ich mache selber keine Verhandlungen, aber ich kriege das mit, weil mich das interessiert. Also Beispiele, um groß zu nennen – bei der Materialien – da können Sie gucken: es gibt nicht so viele, die terrarien machen in Deutschland. Groß, da gerne – wir kriegen eine Prüfung. Wir in Deutschland – die Reden, wie wahrscheinlich alle Wettbewerber, von der Rede vom 30 Prozent – was ich unglaublich fahre im Vergleich zu anderen Lieferanten. Oder dann rufe ich meine Freunde aus Frankreich, von Leclerc, die Nummer eins in Frankreich – und sage: bau bei dem, die Verhandlung – wie eine riesige – er sagt: wie auch 5 Prozent? Und er war total skandalisiert, der Leclerc-5-Prozent. Ich habe ja 30 – selber liefert er, selber Artig, selbe Produktionsstand. Auch dann sagen wir: okay, da ist sich ja nicht – Amerikaner, denn in Deutschland gesagt: er macht nicht genug Ergebnis in Deutschland. Dann profitiert er jetzt, dass der Umsatz hochgeht, und anstatt 5 Prozent zu fragen – was ich richtig wäre – 30 Meter blickt sowieso keiner mehr.

Da ist ein bisschen nur zum zu unterstellen, weil wir – wie gesagt – wir haben drei Möglichkeiten zu prüfen. Die Rewe – wir gucken: was bieten Sie sich schon in anderen Ländern? Sowohl Einkauf als auch der Lieferant, der anbietet. Wir gucken, was unsere Partner von Leclerc Preisen haben. Manchmal gucken wir unsere eigenen Marken – Lieferanten sagen, von der Oma und so – und wir vergleichen die schon. Liefert die dieselbe Warengruppe – und ich weiß, weil viele – es gibt nicht nur einen Großen. Und es gibt manchmal keine Ahnung – da Müller, weiß der Kuckuck, dann Gebel und in der Wahllokale – und dann kann man auch Vergleich in Wien in den einzelnen Kategorien. Wenn ihre Preise erhöhen, aber – wenn ja die Märkte derart differenziert – also dahin 30 Prozent und an fünfter die nicht erreichbar 0 Prozent angeboten – 0 war Österreich, weil ihnen wahrscheinlich – aber was heißt es dann konkret? Heißt das, dass man einfach das Gefühl hat: die Deutschen haben mehr Kaufkraft, oder ist die Marktmacht von dieser Firma in Deutschland größer als in Frankreich?

Man sich doch nicht so kennt, oder? Ist nicht immer – einen Grund haben, ist nicht jemand in diese Richtung an – das passiert manchmal in eine andere Richtung. Aber in dem Fall wahrscheinlich kennen die Zahl nicht von dieser Firma. Aber ich vermute, dass die nicht zufrieden waren, die Amerikaner, mit den Ergebnissen in Deutschland – aus Grund, ich nicht kennen, ob es Kosten, Marktanteil – weiß ich nicht – und gesagt: er muss einfach mehr Ergebnis holen. Das Nettoergebnis soll einfach die Preisgewinner sein.

Das ist aber – das ist nicht – falso angegeben, dass die ganze Industrie auf eine Welle reitet, die es nicht gibt. Es gibt konkrete Preiserhöhungen in vielen – den habe ich vorhergesagt – und es gibt auch viele Lieferanten, die damit umgehen so vernünftig, die wirklich transparente Objekte da sind. Da sind die Sachen, die wir als Erhöhungen haben, und dass es am Ende 8 Prozent – wir sagen: okay, 8 Prozent – weil viele sagen: kannst du da dem Kunden nicht so, weil der Kunde hat auch mehr Kosten selber zu Hause, Benzin, Energie – wie auch die Rewe nehmen die Ware ein, die hat auch Stromkosten, Personal – kurz darauf trifft keine Marge verzichten. Genau – dieses Jahr verzichten wir auf ganz klar viele, viele Marge. Aber was ich sage – viele Lieferanten sind vernünftig und man findet auch ein Abkommen. Die sind eben – es gibt ein Rebell, gegen den man noch 20 Monate – sind viele, mit denen wir uns einigen haben. Das ist nur das eine.

Aber es gibt viele Groß – die wirklich mit große Macht, weil die – den – mächtiger als wir sind. Weil klar: an Kunden – viele Markenartikel sind die Guten, treuen – wenn die nicht bei de – befindet. Grad umgekehrt – wenn wir dann haben, die auch genau und damit – und machen dann 30 Millionen Fernsehen, und der Kunde sagt: bei uns sehen – und deshalb gibt es Diskussionen. Wenn Sie gucken ein bisschen an der Börse die letzten Quartale, die Veröffentlichungen von den großen Lebensmittelfirmen der Welt – ja, ja, ja – bei Nestlé, Unilever und Procter und alles – was sie wollen: die bieten Webseiten, gute genießen, und geben auch große Dividende. Das sei so schlecht – dass Online-Spiele ganze funktioniert.

Am Ende – die deutsche Regierung, die immer – ist, die zurzeit immer Schwierigkeiten macht für den, der da verhandelt wird. Immer mit rechtlichen Dingen angemischt, dass wir da immer weniger verhandeln können. Das ist alles schlecht für die Inflation in Deutschland, in Europa. Würden Firmen wie nicht nur die Rewe, wie Edeka, wie Kaufland, Lidl, Penny oder Leclerc nicht verhandeln und ein gewisser Filter schaffen – wir können nicht alles absagen – immer mindestens ein Teil der Erhöhungen reduzieren, statt 80 Prozent akzeptieren – da nicht jetzt, aber in drei Monaten später – nur dank dem können die ganze Bevölkerung nicht so viele Inflation haben, was jetzt nicht so, dass wir noch viel höher.

Definitiv.

Deputies were absent for a long time, a few were sick, and I think I had done a little extra to make things worse. But it turned out even worse than back then — one or two were sick, nobody really knows. But the month was tough because I was also into sports, and then I regularly had several markets and sales offices. It was hard on me, but in hindsight it was a good school. At the time, I have to admit I didn't enjoy it much. But what always helped was that it was planned — my now-wife, then-girlfriend, was still allowed to drive to Paris occasionally. On Fridays I would always call before going out: 'Yes, you're a good one, you're showing them that you're good.' I was once 100 kilometers from Munich in a catastrophic store, dealing with jeans and teenagers, showing the guys how to clean up. The manager there was used to operating under pressure, and I have to say I was actually bullied a bit. Not in a military sense, but more like what he said — he pushed people. But in the end, I think I experienced it well because I knew I was stuck with this colleague for six months, and I knew he wanted to finish me off. That motivated me a bit — at first I didn't like it much. Then, since I was always sporty, on Fridays I would ask, 'Where can you help out? Where can you be the best form for your favorite girl?' And then I have to say, the last month or last week, he told me, 'Now for your initiation week, you'll drive with me through the markets.' It was interesting because the whole company was afraid of him — in Bavaria he was really feared. I even asked him in the car. I didn't want to say it outright, but he ended up at Netto later. Over the years we stayed in contact, and 20 years later he congratulated me. He had asked me: 'You know that all the people are afraid of you, and that's why they act the way they do.' He said, 'Just stay true to your style, be approachable.' He taught me a lot about leadership that I believe our management team can still understand today. He was actually a nice guy once you got to know him differently. I had no contact with him for a long time, but he later became the CEO of Netto, the discounter. He sent me a letter, I replied, he sent sparkling water as a gift. He said, 'Good job, you were well onboarded.' I said, 'Yes, I learned something from you.' My handball trainer — when everyone was already in the locker room, he'd make me do a few extra laps and say, 'You know your favorite food, favorite player — take the hardest route.' That's the philosophy I absorbed. What surprised me most was what my then-girlfriend and now-wife asked — wasn't it really tough? A long-distance relationship, you can't come to Paris multiple times, you don't have to just endure the hard parts. No, but that was only during the phase with that colleague. Otherwise we saw each other almost every weekend. And I have to say, REWE in Cologne was very flexible. After that time in Bavaria, because very quickly in 1998 I became responsible for international purchasing, focused on Hungary, Czech Republic, Italy. Instead of always flying from my apartment in Cologne, I said, 'My wife lives in London sometimes at JP Morgan, let me book flights from London — it costs the same.' The Germans were a bit surprised, but if it's the same price, it doesn't matter. So I always flew from London, and my wife could see me already in the morning. Then, as a Parisian, she wasn't going to stay home for my career — at JP Morgan you earn more than a dog, as the saying goes. She told me, 'I have ambition too.' Then at some point we agreed: we'll build a career together, but not apart. She was in London, then New York, then Paris for a while, and we managed to meet in Milan — she was at REWE and I was there too. After a year, we had our first child in Milan. That's where we started our family. But at the beginning, nobody managed to have one of us come almost every weekend while the other stayed. Then came the phase where we both had ambition. Our wives earned even more, which motivated us further. But eventually she decided we should do this together, not apart. With three small children, it wasn't practical — she came from Vienna, then JP Morgan moved to Frankfurt. That wasn't feasible with three small kids, taking the train early to Frankfurt. So that was the decision.

Well, the boss of REWE International in Vienna wanted to expand into Russia, and their joint venture partner was practically going bankrupt. He tried to pressure REWE with forged contracts — REWE as a tenant for their families. They refused, which was quite reckless. But it was a big story. I believe REWE formally did it so the board members could distance themselves from any risk. I said, 'I'm not afraid — I know Russia.' That's how it was back then. Vienna was considered a neutral zone where nothing would happen. The oligarchs were small-timers who liked to hang out in Moscow with their bodyguards. It was simple — nothing would happen in Vienna. They told me nothing would happen. But the danger was actually back home — my wife said, 'You're dealing with the mafia.' That was in Russia, but in Vienna there was no real threat. The story is actually about Russia. They barricaded me once in a hotel room — with a chair against the door, like in a real mafia movie. But it wasn't actually the mafia that concrete. We had a joint venture that died in 2004. I didn't sign it myself, but afterwards I saw at the office entrance a large photo of Putin. Schröder, the former chancellor, and Theo from REWE — they met with this small oligarch, not a big one, more of a former KGB figure. They founded the first company together, a joint venture. In hindsight, you're always smarter. All I can say is, when I took over, this person wanted to sell us a third network of stores. The problem was the markets had contracts with suppliers from Moscow. I immediately said we wouldn't do it, but I didn't put it in writing. Seven or eight months later, he came to my office in Vienna with an armada of English bankers and lawyers. I thought, what does this mean? The lawyer was apparently a known scandal lawyer from Austria. He presented a canvas, and then to top it off, after an hour he produced a contract signed by all REWE bosses — my predecessors — committing us to buy this company we absolutely didn't want for 600 million dollars. But I said, 'That should be easy to prove.' When a person owes hundreds of millions to oligarchs and to English banks who want their money back, they try to put you under pressure. You can't underestimate the political pressure that was building. The German ambassador in Moscow told people that REWE were crooks. The Russian ambassador in Berlin said the same. We realized what was happening — we hadn't done anything wrong, but the whole political apparatus was turning against us. It wasn't easy to react. Judges in Russia were difficult too. I have to say, in hindsight we were lucky. But this difficult time in Moscow negatively shaped my view of investing in Russia for myself and the whole team. So when I became CEO of REWE Group in 2017, it was very clear to my colleagues: this is not a country where we invest for the long term. The war makes it completely impossible, but even politically and economically it's uncertain. Competitors have invested massively in retail there and are opening markets faster. We can stay as we are. That was the decision we made. After 16 years, with around 160 markets, we sold in Moscow. Good team. And at the end of 2020, for partly similar reasons — expansion problems and economic issues — after 20 years we left Croatia at the end of December 2020. Those two countries we sold in the last five years — those are the ones people remember.

I don't know — I didn't always have it. I wasn't the ambitious type. I wasn't someone who said, 'I want this, I want that.' I really wasn't ambitious in that way. I had no idea, really. I think for a long time I wanted to become a veterinarian. When I studied in Reutlingen, I wanted to do marketing. I started in the market, then moved to procurement. I thought I'd go into consulting anyway. Two years later, because everything went very well when you're having fun, you want more responsibility. The toughness — from football, from sports — you learn that. I wasn't bad, but I'm happy when it's competitive. Nobody can learn from someone who just says, 'It's totally harmless, you don't need to do more.' You need a certain drive. Maybe it comes from my grandfather — he was the type who really pushed me. I noticed he was very consistent. He was remarkable professionally. My family is from Morocco — my father was born there, grew up black-haired, tanned. Most of them came back to France after the war. He was an architect in Paris, but also in politics — deputy mayor of one of the four arrondissements of Paris. In real estate, he was tough. He was quite a character — experienced a lot, but also did favors for people. That blood from my grandfather is in me.

My father studied French literature and was a teacher. Perhaps because of his childhood in Morocco, he wanted to go back to the Maghreb region. He was a teacher at a French school in Tunisia — originally planned for three to four years. When my mother was pregnant with me, she flew to Paris to give birth on time. I was born in Paris, then from two weeks to two years old I was in Tunisia. I can barely remember it — in a small town. In those days, people from North Africa were welcomed with open arms in Paris. I was two years old. The French are proud of their colonial history. My mother was also from there. My father spent 16 years in Paris, then after his studies spent three years as a teacher in Tunisia — just three years as an expert. It was a specific constellation. I'm still a bit into kitchen psychology and heredity — where does your love for micromanagement come from? You check advertising flyers yourself. I think you have to do both — big strategy is important, of course, but you also need to be able to dive into the details of some things. What you do, what not — the details often reveal what works and what doesn't. I proved myself at REWE in certain areas like marketing and procurement — I know the assortment well. And at the end of the day, I don't want to just be someone who doesn't do any of what they learned, only doing politics and discussions with journalists and politicians, a bit of philosophy about sustainability. That's okay, and I enjoy it as COO too. But my main focus is people — 30 percent of my time is on their development. The rest is looking at the assortment, our advertising. I do that less now because I also have tourism and many other things. But you need a certain closeness to the business.

No, really. When I work with new people who take over major functions — like a colleague taking over BENY, for example — we're closer together at the beginning. I want to get to know them better, exchange ideas. I think that's important. And very quickly you notice, okay, we're on the same page, and then I really let them do their thing. I'm also not the type who works from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. anymore. To tell you the truth, most of my colleagues work longer than I do in the office — the board members and division heads. I usually arrive around 8, and by around 6 or 6:30 p.m. I'm also out.

I think it's great. When you say I should abolish them, they should make more markets — we can't just convert everything in Germany. In 2009, we still had 234 stores, but only a third were merchant-run, and now it's almost reversed. Why can't headquarters do it? Why do merchants do better? Because the store managers at REWE or Penny are very good people who work very well, but when it's your own store, you have a different motivation. Most buyers want to pass the business on to their children. They're much more rooted in their neighborhood, their village, their city. With centrally managed stores, people change every three to five years. But when you've invested your own money — if you take over a restaurant tomorrow and you fully invest in it, it's different from someone giving you 6,000 euros a month to run a restaurant. The entrepreneurial difference is clear. The merchants have done well. We recruited the same people — some said, 'I'd rather stay a manager, I have my security.' That must be respected. I've also never been a pure entrepreneur. Taking some risk helps — maybe the wife or husband, the children, they motivate you. They have a plan and find their place socially, connect locally, join the local football club. That's why merchants are successful. You can see it in France — of the six large companies, Casino is listed on the stock exchange, the other three are cooperatives with only merchants — Leclerc, Intermarché, and Systeme U. For ten years, the cooperative merchants have been winning while the listed companies lose. There must be something to it. That's why our goal isn't to completely switch to a merchant system for supermarkets. But for a store that can really adapt locally, develop its own assortment — a merchant who's an absolute connoisseur of wine, his wife maybe in flowers — that's two departments we could never organize as well. They do it stronger. So we want to keep stores but convert everything to merchant-run where it makes sense.

Of course, but we do it very strategically, in coordination with the works councils. We carefully evaluate which markets, which merchant — and it's not just any merchant, they have to be very good. You need someone with an entrepreneurial spirit who can handle more pressure and wants to do it. It only works well when that's the case.

I have to say, you only know at the end. But so far, it was smart that we chose Flink and not Gorillas. That was the decision — we had a choice. We saw in December 2020 that this company group in America with this idea was successful, and we thought it would come to Europe. We saw it coming from Turkey, from Gorillas — 200 markets at 100 euros per day. Maybe this is something. And we saw that customers appreciate it — sometimes getting delivery in ten minutes makes sense. So we had to decide. There were three options: simply ignore it and oppose it, do it ourselves — but we already had so many e-commerce projects and programs that we thought we didn't have the resources for a third major initiative. The other option was partnership, because these companies need someone who does the wholesale purchasing, who accompanies them. Through wholesale, we learn more about the business, become more precise. And if we take a smaller stake initially, we can benefit when it succeeds, and we can exit if needed. So we had to look at the players. I held conversations and rejected Gorillas and Pandamart — either we're partners or we're competitors, not everything in between. Always very polite as you know them, but clear. They told me the market would be worth 100 billion within a year or two, that they'd be number one everywhere in America. The others said it would be a long run. We decided on Flink because the stake wasn't as high — not as immediately comparable to what the others expected. I found them experienced and realistic. A year later, everything moved incredibly fast. Flink is now in France, Germany, and Austria, and ahead of Gorillas. They're still losing money because delivering for 1.90 euros isn't sustainable, but I believe once you reach a certain scale — which only comes when someone has to concede defeat — then it can work. A person can only deliver so much per hour; each delivery needs enough volume to be worthwhile. It will be very difficult until then. They've raised hundreds of millions from private equity. But I believe when the market consolidates — and it's happening now — we'll see acquisitions in many countries. Once one or two strong players remain and don't need to spend as much on marketing and promotions — giving away free deliveries, delivering for three euros — once they charge at least 20 euros minimum order and don't spend millions on advertising every week, then I believe you can make money. Not just believe — you can actually earn money. But we'll have to see who gets there first. I'm always the type who waits to see who really crosses the finish line.

You have to separate things. Tourism is something different. The retail side — well, let me put it this way: home delivery to customers is definitely not profitable because it takes an enormous amount of time to pick the items in the warehouse, then deliver to homes. Most people don't come back. When you have to carry crates of beer up to the fourth floor on the Ring in Cologne — you have to park, walk, carry everything up. It's a very expensive process. So we're not making money on that short-term. But we've grown so large that the fixed costs in relation aren't as high anymore. We've significantly reduced losses, but we are still making losses, and in my opinion it will take several more years. Then there's process improvement. We also have the click-and-collect service, which we offer in over 1,000 REWE stores across Germany — almost uniquely. You can order from home, and when you're coming from school or from sports, you stop by the REWE store, pick up your order directly, and in one minute you're on your way. Many people use it. I've also used it practically — you decide yourself when to come by, and we don't lose money on it because we still do the picking, but we don't have to deliver to homes. That's the biggest part.

I already mentioned Penny briefly. In Europe, it's far from being comparable in size to Aldi or Lidl. We operate in all countries with Penny and it's about 14 billion in revenue — Lidl is over 100 billion. We're talking about different scales. Penny is about 14 billion, and we should be very proud of our 3,100 stores. But yes, I believe discounters including Penny gained some market share compared to the previous year, but not like in 2009 or 2010, because customers increasingly recognize that good prices are also available at REWE. As for tourism, it's going well in terms of revenue so far, because people had a lot of pent-up demand — February, March, April were very strong. But the results might suffer because of the terrible organization by many airlines. An incredible number of flights have been cancelled because they don't have the capacity. This whole chaos — especially in Germany at the four main hubs: Hamburg, Frankfurt, Düsseldorf, and Cologne — where people stood in line for 4 to 5 hours. That really hurt the business. People missed their flights. There are also counterexamples: two weeks in Sweden, the costs were enormous. Customers who booked package tours through our travel agencies — it's our responsibility to organize a flight somehow, no matter what. If they can't make their trip, we still have to bear the red numbers because we were blocked. We had a hotel with 4,000 beds per year at a great price, but the customers couldn't fly. It's a shame the whole industry hasn't adapted to the demand. It won't be a top year for tourism even though revenues are there, because the costs of the chaos are incredible — so many unhappy people in those lines. And my team missed it too. At security, nobody was in charge — only four of eight checkpoints open, with 1.5-meter queues. Nobody seemed to care. And when people were forbidden from putting their bags on the belt before it was their turn, I got the security manager and said, 'I'm the REWE CEO — when you come to REWE, you'd expect to put your items on the belt when it's your turn. How can you not know that's obvious?' So there was a proper scene. Before the police arrived, I thought, let me say something in French to calm things down. I found the whole thing very difficult. Many people only go on vacation once a year with their family, and to miss their flight after waiting 4-5 hours — that's really unfortunate.

There are many different concepts being tested in Germany right now — five or six different ones, I'm not sure of the exact number. But we were the first in the EU to do it properly. We started here in Cologne in November — relatively small. The next one is a bit bigger, in Berlin. The idea is that you walk in as a customer, don't have to scan anything yourself — you take the items, walk out, and it charges you automatically based on what you picked up. The problem is that the investment required for such a market is enormous, and customers need time to adapt. We can't just build markets for this from scratch like Amazon can. We have 4,000 REWE stores in Germany where customers have shopped for years. We first need to create a system where people aren't forced to change. In Cologne, you can shop normally, but few people actually use the scan-and-go. It takes time — it's a cultural change. In principle, the idea is good because most people don't want to wait 15 minutes at the checkout, put things on the belt, then re-pack. Cashier work is difficult. We always have trouble finding enough staff for the checkout. Most of the work in a store is at the register, and staff would rather advise customers at the service counter or in the produce department. Those positions wouldn't be eliminated either — the investment has to pay off. We'd reduce personnel costs, but we're looking for an incredible number of employees — a five-figure number. Last year, 25,000 in Germany alone. So we definitely won't be cutting jobs because we're desperately hiring. We believe supermarkets need to differentiate more from discounters — with fresh food, service counters, and the full shopping experience. It's very intensive work. Our people spend a lot of time on this currently. In ten years, will half of REWE's stores be supermarkets? I don't think so, but who knows. I believe we'll have more and more fresh food. Fewer canned goods, less drugstore products — people will order those online. But with fresh food, we're already at about 50 percent. That's the point where people want to come in — fresh fish looks good, fresh meat with good advice. I believe our grandchildren might only shop in Rococo shops — you throw everything in a white bin and the bill is paid automatically. But I believe in Germany, where many people live alone and half of all spending happens outside the home, the social aspect of going to a supermarket — meeting other customers you know — that's very important. Not everyone will stay home and have everything delivered. Some will, sometimes during the week when they don't feel like going out. But sometimes they'll want to go out, even to the city center.

I said what I said about that. I don't really have power over that, but I do have some influence. When you talk about influence, what criticism does the next generation have of REWE when you look at your daughters — what do they say?

They do push us, but it's less pressure than you might think. With plastic — plastic containers, fish packaging — there's a lot of plastic. We've tried to explain to them, but it hasn't been entirely successful. We're aware of it and making efforts to remove or reduce plastic, with alternatives. But for many products, it's important for shelf life, and whether it's green or not, there are safeguards involved. It's not as simple as people think. Since May, we've had a team dedicated solely to packaging — and they're all environmental and climate fanatics. They're genuinely excited about finding alternatives. We're finding many, but there's still too much packaging left. But we're trying hard. Every single article — where there's a critical issue, we work on it. There's definitely some pressure, which is good. Partners from NGOs and other organizations push us to do better. Sometimes I hear what we need to do well — they don't say what we're doing well, and my family doesn't either. Fortunately, they still let me eat avocados.

I just hope that, like many people, my family continues to be happy and healthy. That's the main thing. Privately, as a big football fan of 1. FC Köln, I'd be thrilled if we could reach the European final. That's achievable. We definitely won't achieve it this year — no chance. But the dream is long-term. For now, let's just hope for a good season and many goals for 1. FC Köln. And thank you very much for the interesting conversation.