CEOInterviews.AIThe Mythic Mind with Andrew Snyder » The Tolkien Road Episode 322

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Host0:01

Hey there, fellow travelers! Welcome to The Tolkien Road, episode 322. In this episode I'm joined by Andrew Snyder of the Mythic Mind podcast. Andrew lives in Williamsburg, Virginia with his wife and twin one-year-olds. He's a PhD student of Theology, and this spring he'll be defending his dissertation on the integrating role of faith in Kierkegaard's psychological narrative of self-formation. He's an adjunct professor of philosophy and religion, a contributing author to The Holy Spirit and the Reformation Legacy, and host of the Mythic Mind podcast, which explores the intersections between philosophy and stories. Andrew, welcome to The Tolkien Road!

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Andrew Snyder0:41

Thank you, I'm so glad to be here.

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Host0:44

Awesome. Before we dive in, I'd like to give a double high-five to our patrons. Andrew, join me if you would. All right, patrons — hands up! Three, two, one! Nice. Special thanks to this episode's executive producers: John R., Caitlin of Tea with Tolkien, Jacob Blockham, John H., and Eru27. And a shout-out to our newest patron, Shawna Supreme. Thank you so much — check out patreon.com/tolkienroad for more. YouTube, hit that like button, subscribe, and let us know in the comments. All right, Andrew, we were just talking before I hit record. We've been meaning to do this for a while. I think we've been acquainted for several years — I've been following you on Twitter, and we've interacted a few times. In the first half of 2022, there was an article on Medium that pushed a button for each of us. I can't remember exactly who wrote it, but it was basically saying Lord of the Rings is not a Christian work. Both of us would say, okay, it's not a Christian work in the sense that you'd see it on Pure Flix.

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Andrew Snyder2:45

Yeah, and I probably wouldn't be interested if you were.

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Host2:50

We both were like, but you're not understanding where Tolkien's coming from. You wrote a really great article in response, and it got shared a whole bunch. It was quite excellent. I want to revisit that topic in a bit, but let's start by letting you tell everybody about your journey with Tolkien.

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Andrew Snyder3:26

Great, I'm so glad to be doing this. I've been listening to your podcast since before I even started reading Tolkien. Unlike most of your guests, I don't have a long history with Tolkien. Growing up I really wasn't much of a reader. Toward the end of high school I started reading theology, and I studied philosophy and theology in school, but I didn't recognize the value of reading fiction — if I wanted a story I'd watch a movie. During my master's degree, I took a course on Augustine, and reading his Confessions helped me better understand myself and my own spiritual narrative, which primed me to value stories more. Between 2019 and early 2021, my wife and I had six consecutive miscarriages — by far the darkest, most difficult time of my life. But it was also one of the most profound seasons of growth in my faith. In that sorrow I experienced greater unity with the crucified Christ — the idea that the wounds of Christ hold our sorrow with the hope of joy. I was on Twitter one day and something from Caitlin at Tea with Tolkien popped up in my feed. I followed her, started listening to her podcast, and then looked for other Tolkien podcasts. Yours was the next one that came up, and before even reading Tolkien, I listened through your series on The Silmarillion.

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Host6:53

That's so interesting — you were magnetically drawn to Tolkien followers. It sounds like the podcasts were talking a lot about Tolkien, but had you seen the films?

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Andrew Snyder7:10

I saw the films probably in middle and high school and liked them well enough, but that's where it left off until recently. Somehow I was just drawn into this world. One thing that really drew me in at just the right time was the significant role sorrow plays in Tolkien's world, and how it's intermingled with hope and ultimately joy. That comes out in iconic quotes throughout his legendarium — the inner weaving of sorrow and joy. Something in that deeply spoke to me exactly when I needed it. I went all in, not just in a 'this is a great story' way, but in something much more existential. I felt Tolkien was writing something true, even before I could articulate it in Tolkienian terms.

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Host8:08

Yeah, that's so true. You get to the point in The Lord of the Rings where there's stories, and then there's this — something is going on at a higher level. That's what got me down this road. It started in 2015, and I just can't seem to find a way to stop talking about it. It's beautiful.

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Andrew Snyder8:36

Yeah. So I went straight from Lord of the Rings to The Silmarillion. I decided to take a little break and read some Dostoevsky, but before I even finished that — a little light reading — I already had Tales from the Perilous Realm on the way, and then The Great Tales after that, and just kept going.

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Host9:00

Yeah, wow, wow. So, you were talking about the six consecutive miscarriages and the dark time that puts you through. Connecting that to Tolkien — I realize how all of Middle-earth came out of incredible suffering: World War I, both his parents dying when he was young, finding himself orphaned, the horror of the war. Out of all of that somehow came these incredible stories.

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Andrew Snyder10:07

It's such an amazing and beautiful mystery to ponder, and how so often that's where great creative works come from.

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Host10:19

That's wonderful. I'm really interested — now that you mentioned Tales from the Perilous Realm — is it 'Tales From' or 'Tales Of'? I keep going back and forth. Well, whatever it is, they're tales having to do with the Perilous Realm. You're going to be exploring those on your podcast this year, right?

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Andrew Snyder10:57

That's right. I want to talk about some of those stories. For long-time listeners of this podcast, you'll know I love Leaf by Niggle and On Fairy-Stories, which I think is an appendix from Tales from the Perilous Realm. I've been preparing to do an episode on Smith of Wootton Major, which I'm planning soon, but I keep pushing it out because I'm just trying to figure out what's going on there. Leaf by Niggle speaks so deep to me, and Smith of Wootton Major — Tolkien wrote this, so there's something going on here I need to pay attention to. I'm honestly not quite there myself yet.

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Host11:50

Yeah, it's a challenging one. And then of course Farmer Giles of Ham — it's been a couple of years since I read it. I remember it didn't quite hit me on the level of Leaf by Niggle, but it's Tolkien, so I know it's brilliant. I'm going to make sure I pay close attention.

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Andrew Snyder12:07

Yeah, I'm still questioning how I'm going to have a brilliant exposition of Rover Random, but it'll be fun at least.

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Host12:15

Rover Random — that's another one. I kind of feel like it's there with Letters from Father Christmas. Maybe there's something going on, but it feels more like he was just telling a shaggy dog story to his kids and it turned into this thing. But ultimately, there has to be some truth behind all engaging stories or they wouldn't resonate with us even on an entertainment level.

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Andrew Snyder12:37

There's always something true there, and that'll be the fun of going through even Rover Random — figuring out what's going on. When you read it well-versed in the deeper parts of the legendarium, you realize there are connections. The same is true of Smith of Wootton Major — there's lots of overlap with the themes of Middle-earth, and sometimes you're like, wait, that's a character from Middle-earth right there. It was exciting when I read Rover Random fresh out of The Silmarillion and he approaches Valinor at one point.

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Host13:21

Right, there's a place. The same thing happens in Smith of Wootton Major. For some reason he could never completely get away from Middle-earth — because it is his Perilous Realm, truly his Perilous Realm. Andrew, tell us a little bit about the Mythic Mind, your podcast you've been at for about a year and a half. Feel free to connect it to everything you've got going on — I know you write on Substack — in this world of studying myth.

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Andrew Snyder13:57

I'm moving in a lot of different directions at once, but there's definitely a strong Tolkien theme across the board. With my podcast, it's really looking at the intersection between philosophy and stories, primarily literature. The first season was a presentation of my dissertation material — Kierkegaard's psychology of anxiety and despair, and the role of faith in forming the self. At this point I'm diving into fiction, starting with Tales from the Perilous Realm. I knew I wanted to do something with Tolkien, and I feel like there are enough strong voices on Lord of the Rings, so I wanted to focus on something different. I've got seven or eight guests lined up for the next season. Over on Patreon, I'm wrapping up a series on Grimm's Fairy Tales — the whole idea is reading myths and fairy tales for wisdom. Over on Substack, I started doing summaries and reflections on Tolkien's letters, which I'd highly recommend — there's so much practical wisdom and insight in his storytelling.

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Host15:52

So much practical wisdom in addition to insights in his storytelling. That's awesome, you're so right. For long-time listeners of my podcast, they'll know I adore his letters. There's so much richness from just a nerd-out-on-Middle-earth perspective alone — the Waldman Letter basically explains the whole legendarium. But then there are these other incredible letters where he says the most profound and deep truths, things I'm still trying to understand. That's really cool — I'll definitely be listening to those episodes. I'm very interested to hear your take on Smith of Wootton Major when you get there, because I'll be doing my own episode. And the letters — I'm interested to see which ones you'll be talking about, because there are a lot and they're all so good.

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Andrew Snyder17:07

One thing I love about them is that in addition to seeing his wisdom and the background of his stories, I even love the really mundane letters that show he's a real person. It's easy to mythologize Tolkien.

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Host17:21

On that note, I found one of the old BBC specials they did on him when he was still alive — they actually interviewed him. I was tearing up as I watched it because it was just so beautiful. He's the complete opposite of phony — he's just so totally himself, and he's beautiful. He has a beautiful soul. He goes through the interview with this grandfatherly smirk on his face, giving these mind-blowing answers, but it's just like, yep, that's how it is. It's wonderful. All right, let's come back to the topic of Christianity and Middle-earth. Do you remember the name of the individual who wrote that article?

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Andrew Snyder18:59

Jonathan Paletti was his last name.

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Host19:02

Jonathan Paletti. The gist of his article was essentially that, if anything, Lord of the Rings is anti-Christian. He was trying to make the case that it was fundamentally opposed to Christianity.

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Andrew Snyder19:24

I didn't review it recently, but from what I recall, he basically argued that it's rooted in paganism and essentially promotes some kind of secular progressivism.

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Host19:37

You did a great job going through it point by point and refuting a lot of what he said. There were times reading the article where I was scratching my head like, is this guy serious, or is he trolling us?

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Andrew Snyder19:56

There may have been some trollery going on, but I think he was also kind of serious and genuine about his argument.

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Host20:06

I'm interested to hear you explain your take on how Christianity and Lord of the Rings work together, because it's this ongoing thing. Neither of us would say it's an explicitly Christian work, and certainly not some kind of direct allegory. But there is something utterly Christian about it, and Tolkien himself would have agreed — there's the 'fundamentally Catholic and religious work' statement, hard to get around that. How do you explain to people that this is how Lord of the Rings is Christian?

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Andrew Snyder21:07

On one hand, Tolkien does come out and say it is a Christian work — he says it's a fundamentally Catholic work. I remember the article cited Tolkien saying that first it was unintentional, then it was intentional — the Christian influence behind his work. The article author used that to say, 'See, Tolkien didn't intentionally make it Christian.' But it's a weird argument, because what Tolkien is actually saying is, 'I didn't set out to write a Christian work, but when I did, that's what it was.' That's how ingrained Christian conviction and thinking is in Tolkien — naturally it came out in his work. It's an organic process. He's sub-creating a secondary world, and there is reality behind it. If Tolkien believes Christianity is the real way of understanding the world, his secondary world is going to be born out of that conviction. Looking inside the story itself, you go to the opening of The Silmarillion and clearly you have one God creating the world out of his thought, the Ainur reflecting his glory — there's clear monotheism from the very beginning. That works itself out throughout the entire legendarium, up to Lord of the Rings where, at Mount Doom, Frodo doesn't even throw the Ring in. The main protagonist of that story is Eru, the God who orchestrates even the depravity of Gollum to accomplish good ends. From beginning to end, everything unfolds in response to the person and actions of the monotheistic God. So how you can go from that to saying this is a fundamentally anti-Christian work is just absurd.

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Host23:47

It is absurd, because he's twisting things Tolkien clearly says and ignoring whole swaths of the legendarium, many of which you pointed out. On the other hand, there's the genuine question — if it's so Christian, why are there all these other gods? I thought Christianity was monotheistic. And why isn't there any religion in Lord of the Rings? If it's so Christian, why doesn't it have more explicit religious elements? How would you respond to somebody honestly asking those questions?

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Andrew Snyder25:17

Those are certainly questions asked with honesty. My first response to 'why are there gods' is that there's only one uncreated deity. When we talk about the gods — the Valar — we're talking about created beings. Even in the Christian text, the Hebrew Elohim can apply to the heavenly court, especially angels and their role in the world. There can be analogues with the Valar. I'm not going to say one-to-one here's how Tolkien's creations match up with Christian theology, because as we said it's not a straight allegory. But thematically we can see overlapping ideas. Even as Christians we can talk about gods without betraying our monotheism, depending on the context.

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Host26:34

Solid answer. What was the other point — this idea of why doesn't religion play a more active role? Why don't the hobbits have religion?

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Andrew Snyder26:50

I think that's first and foremost because he's not writing an allegory. He doesn't need a character to almost literally come out and say 'I'm Jesus' to have christological ideas in the story. We see Gandalf dying and resurrecting in glory, King Aragorn entering his kingdom, Frodo bearing the burden of the world. He simply didn't set out to write a Christian propaganda flick — he set out to tell a story. But in telling that story, we see religious themes not in isolated pockets like in Christian media today, but the Christian message all throughout in various types and shadows. It's also worth noting that there actually is organized religion if you go back to Númenor. Tolkien himself makes the point that his story isn't about freedom first and foremost — it's about worship, to divine authority.

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Host28:28

Well, let's come back to that. One other thing from your article — Tolkien says in the same letter where he calls it fundamentally religious and Catholic that the religious element is absorbed into the text, which is kind of a head-scratcher. But I think you explained a lot of how that works. As you said, there actually is a religion in Middle-earth — the Númenórean religion, which is monotheism, the worship of Ilúvatar. The people of Valinor have a religious practice as well — the gods themselves worship Ilúvatar, having festivals to him. There's interesting overlap between Númenórean and Valinorean religious practice. It's almost like Tolkien didn't want to get too religious with it initially, and then after publishing went back and fleshed it out. I'm sorry I jumped in there with Númenor — did you want to say anything more about the Númenórean religion and how it operates?

Before I come back to this question about God and his whole right to Divine honor, no that's fair enough we can move on.

Well yeah and I think I mean they're essentially related, but you bring out this quotation in there right so Lord of the Rings is about God and his soul right to Divine honor that's in letter 181 and you know another one of those that just clearly refutes the thesis of this article. But what do you make of that quote? That's a really startling one to me too like whoa how does that work yeah.

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Andrew Snyder31:13

I mean honestly I think that we see that playing out from the very beginning, back to the creation myth, it really begins with the song of the Ainur who are singing in harmony in reflection of Eru's goodness, his Divine Authority. And where things really start to go wrong is where Melkor starts to play the progressive and sing his own tune going off in a different direction. That's the beginning of things going wrong. We see again and again the villains throughout his legendarium are those who desire power, positions of authority that they aren't due and aren't equipped to wield. So we see this idea of authority and misuse of authority throughout his story. That's how we see that idea playing out. It's those who grasp for power that ultimately are grasped by power, whereas those who embrace humble obedience are the heroes.

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Host32:36

I love that line yeah I don't know if you just came up with that spontaneously or if you can take that from somewhere else but those who grasp for power are ultimately grasped by power yeah that's a good one. That's just like right at the heart of this whole of Middle Earth of the whole legendarium.

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Andrew Snyder32:57

That seeking after power for its own sake or for making oneself great, that's like the Melkorish perspective. And I think we're even told at one point that Melkor did what he actually thought was good, he was trying to improve the world but through his own eyes rather than through proper design and submission.

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Host33:25

Yeah yeah and I mean what more constantly applicable notion could there be throughout human history. In this quote it's about God and his soul right to Divine honor he makes a juxtaposition because some people want to say that the story is fundamentally about freedom. He says no it's not fundamentally about freedom. But I think there's a propensity for people to feel threatened when they hear it's about God and his soul right to Divine honor and be like are you telling me this is like some domineering God who demands honor. I mean that's not what Tolkien has in mind though right? How do we reconcile because there is something about freedom in this story it's just not the primary thing. What is Tolkien? What do you think Tolkien wanted people to understand when he said something that bold that strident that probably will take a lot of people and make them be like what?

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Andrew Snyder34:55

Yeah I mean and this is one thing that a lot of people have with Christianity right obviously God demands worship but whether we're talking about Tolkien's mythology or Christian theology either way if God is supremely good then it would be loving if he didn't call us to worship him right he's calling us to our purpose he's calling us to embrace that which is ultimately good. And so really that is true freedom right simply being free to make your own arbitrary decisions and go in your own arbitrary way that's not freedom that's just spinning around in the abyss. Real freedom is freedom to something ultimately to the good which is God.

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Host36:01

You had a that this reminds me you had there was a title of one of your episodes that was striking to me and I think it kind of reflects this idea to need God as a human being's highest perfection. Wow tell us more about that and is that a Kierkegaardian thing there?

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Andrew Snyder36:05

Yeah it is that's actually the title of one of his little short essays. And it's really straight to the point. So Kierkegaard is known as the father of existentialism which leads to all kinds of misinterpretations as to who he is and what he was doing. Because most people when they hear existentialism they don't really think of the later secular existentialists who do really say you know there is no up or down sort of create your own path and embrace it. But that's not what Kierkegaard was doing. He was very much a Christian thinker who really was speaking against that understanding of freedom which is exactly actually how he understood despair. Right because true freedom requires freedom to something right you need a point of origin and a destination otherwise you're sort of floating in the sea. And so for Kierkegaard you know what really makes humans unique and separates us from the animals is our ability to reflect on our nature as creatures right to recognize that we have a Creator and to be able to have this willful embrace of our dependency on God. And so the more that we do that the more authentically human we are the more we're embracing what makes us truly unique whereas the more that we simply live off of kind of instinct and slavery to passions or arbitrary whims really the more animalistic we're living and that's just not freedom not true freedom.

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Host37:41

Yeah yeah it's I mean I love what you said right it's like you've got to have some points of reference right where did I come from where am I going and yes is there kind of freedom within those constraints of course but like I think it's not hard for most of us when we really think about it to understand that like this kind of general like you're just completely free to do whatever freedom means to you that starts to cause us a lot of problems some might do more with that for a little while but even then you're gonna hit a wall with it and it's gonna you're gonna be pushed to limits of your humanity that you're gonna eventually find that freedom wasn't such a good thing maybe that total freedom wasn't such a good thing after all.

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Andrew Snyder38:36

Right and I don't think I say this much better than Tolkien in Mythopedia where he says in this stance that I love where he says you know I will not walk with your Progressive Apes erect and Sapient before them gaped the dark abyss to which your progress tends if by God's mercy progress ever ends and does not ceaselessly continue the same unfruitful course with the changing of a name. And so basically he makes this point that okay you think that you're progressing toward something but if you're just creating what that something is out of thin air well then where is it that you're actually going what are you progressing from what are you progressing to.

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Host39:18

Yeah yeah exactly. And so there's another you have another great line in this response that you wrote and I think this maybe gets to the heart of like Tolkien's idea of the religious element being absorbed into the story but you say the religious is everywhere. What do you mean by that like what do you mean by the religious is everywhere I thought it was just something that happens at church you know.

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Andrew Snyder39:52

Of course. I mean ultimately if the things that we believe are true well then they're true all the time right. God is not bound to location he's not bound to foreign I should be careful how I say this he's not inherently bound to ceremony he's not inherently bound to physical things now he very well may communicate himself through such things however we're told that in Christ all things are held together at all times right and this is the Christian understanding that all things were made ultimately through the word of God and then of course John picks that up in the beginning of his gospel where he says in the beginning what's the word and the word is with God the Word was God he was with God from the beginning and all things were made through him. The idea here is that creation itself wasn't just set into motion but has continually held in being and being directed by the Transcendent God and so religion isn't just something that we do it's fundamentally the way that the world is assuming what we believe is true.

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Host41:15

Yeah and obviously this is the kind of general debate back and forth at all times between just in general believers and atheists right like you know someone who believes in and we'll even just include supernatural realities as opposed to the atheist and it's like well the atheist is always like why doesn't God just show himself right why doesn't he just show himself and they have something specific in mind or kind of maybe general but still something they'd like to see God do to kind of prove that existence go ahead.

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Andrew Snyder42:04

Yeah and of course my basic response to that would be why would you assume if God's real he's going to act in the way that you think that you should if you would he's probably not the Transcendent God that we're talking about.

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Host42:16

Well and that's a great point and one of the other sorts of things and I think this is a relevant question to Tolkien because this is kind of I think Tolkien himself was working this out in Lord of the Rings in the sense what you were pointing out earlier you know who is the ultimate protagonist of the story well it's Ilúvatar right he's orchestrating things behind the scene he is the hidden presence who we know is there because he's there at the beginning of the legendarium and he obviously creates everything. And but how is he working everything out and it's like well what's Tolkien saying about our world through that scheme. And the thing that dawned upon me over the years is just like well yeah why doesn't God show himself or why don't I see him over here in the ways that I would expect to see him. And it's that idea of the journey right that we're all on this journey to somehow discover him right and people think that you know because you have kind of this religious set of ideas that there's no sense of that maybe there's no sense of discovery within that. That's to misunderstand it's like the religious ideas a lot of times are things that kind of give the general structure and then but the actual relationship the finding of God or the finding of Eru in the text right those are things that you're kind of working out as you go right you're discovering as you go you're finding as you go just on this maybe that's an existential journey am I using that word right.

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Andrew Snyder44:07

Yeah I approve yeah yeah. I'm always I never have like studied existentialism or anything like that but I always feel like I come back to being more or less an existentialist maybe that's just because I live in the late 20th and early 21st century and that's how we all think I'm not sure I'd love to tell me.

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Host44:29

I want to come back in a minute to Kierkegaard and Tolkien but I just want to ask you do you have some favorite I mean you've quoted some different passages from Tolkien tonight but do you have any ultimate favorite passages from Tolkien at least that you haven't quoted yet or maybe a favorite work or favorite whatever of Tolkien.

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Andrew Snyder44:47

Sure so maybe I'll just kind of scatter shot this approach. So one of my favorite quotes from Tolkien comes from the Quenta Silmarillion which connects to some of the ideas I've kind of already talked about but I'm just going to kind of read a couple lines here and this is in talking about Ulmo in particular it says in the deep places he gives thought to music great and terrible and the echo of that music runs through all the veins of the world in sorrow and in joy for if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun it springs on the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth. And I think that right there just captures how beautifully Tolkien interweaves joy and sorrow which is a fundamentally Christian idea that ultimately it is the Cross of Christ which is the ultimate kind of world tree connecting heaven and earth right and that's where reality is most keenly revealed and I think that we see that idea throughout Tolkien's work now to speak more broadly rather than specific quotes man I love the really lore heavy chapters. I love the Council of Elrond is easily one of my favorites. I love the deep dives into the lore. I even found myself just first read through Lord of the Rings I hear a lot of times people talk about skipping over the poetry and the songs and whatnot but I found myself trying to hold back the temptation of looking for the next one because something about Tolkien's just poetic soul just really speaks to me and so I love the lore I love the poetry and the songs. Now to kind of pick one particular text aside from Lord of the Rings obviously I think my favorite story might actually be the The Children of Húrin. Wow as depressing and dark as it is probably the same reason why I love Ecclesiastes I don't know I'm drawn to that kind of tone existentialism right yeah there's something to that.

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Host47:12

Yeah yeah interesting. Any more on why Children of Húrin that's I mean that certainly is I'm sure there's actually a good number of people because it is a really amazing story it's just not the one that necessarily ends on the up note that where you kind of used to with other Tolkien stories right a standalone story it's definitely not I wouldn't call it a fairy tale right there's no real catastrophe at the end you know it just ends with you kind of feeling this emptiness in your stomach.

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Andrew Snyder47:49

But I think that might be kind of exactly why I like it so much because if you look at the story in isolation it's quite depressing but then you recognize it's just one story amidst a much larger story and so we can see that as dark as particular episodes may be it's still but part of the grander song that is unfolding over time and so I think that even in this depressing story essentially told through the eyes of Morgoth that there's still hope and endurance to be found in such a dark place.

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Host48:31

Yeah that's great that's a great answer that's consoling to me as you say that because I'm a big fan I'm a big history guy and I really love like the history of the early 20th century through World War II and it's really depressing yeah for sure the more you dive in is fascinating as it is the more you dive into it you're just kind of like wow human beings are really awful to one another like truly truly awful like are we living in some kind of magical fairyland like ourselves here in this time of relative peace I say. But then again somehow the shadow is just a passing thing right like it's.

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Andrew Snyder49:24

Right right and I think that's one of the things I love about Tolkien that on one hand he's not optimistic about the future in a worldly sense and you know it makes you think of from the monsters and the critics when you're talking about Beowulf and you know he refers to them as defending the little circle of light against the oncoming monsters and that ultimately it is a losing battle. Right there's a long defeat followed by sudden victory in the end. I was actually just commented something about this on Twitter a couple days ago that I was thinking about the Battle of Helm's Deep that on one hand you have these noble men fighting against the hordes of monsters in this unwinnable situation fighting to the end and that alone you kind of have the Germanic heroism of the Beowulfian spirit but what makes the Christian tale is in the end you know again off comes and saves the day right.

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Host50:30

Yeah yeah I mean it's just yeah that's like everything seems to be going wrong going wrong going wrong and then out of nowhere yeah seemingly out of nowhere right. I was texting with actually another philosopher friend last night and he was sharing something with me about that his one of his children who I guess is into Lord of the Rings was just like you know who's really even stranger than Tom Bombadil or the Eagles like they're just like they just come out of nowhere they just appear out of nowhere and then I texted him I texted my friend back and I said well you know the Eagles the great Eagles they're actually Gods they're actually Gods they're Maiar according to Tolkien you know kind of explains that there's a little more going on than just these giant eagles right there.

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Andrew Snyder51:24

Well Okay so we've talked a lot about Tolkien we've talked a little bit about Kierkegaard you're I mean you're more of an expert at Kierkegaard than I am you I don't know if you'd call yourself an expert in Kierkegaard you probably I know lots of people have studied him so you might still feel that kind of humble tension but you know you know more about Kierkegaard than probably most people who've ever lived so and you also know a lot about Tolkien so how do the two go together is there anything to kind of overlap and kind of connect that fascination for you.

H

Host51:56

Yeah and so to be forthcoming about my expertise I would call myself an expert on the few texts I've been working with for my dissertation so I'll stick with that he wrote a lot but regarding specifically kind of his psychology which is what I've really been focusing on. Kierkegaard does talk a lot about freedom which really goes in line with the kind of freedom that we've been parsing out right it's the freedom to embrace your dependent existence on God ultimately and so he talks a lot about freedom he talks a lot about kind of anxiety and you know today we normally think of anxiety as an inherently bad thing right something that we want to get rid of whether it be through medication or avoidance whatever and I'm not commenting on psychiatric practice or anything like that but my point is that for Kierkegaard anxiety is not fundamentally a bad thing what anxiety is is our awareness that we're not self-sufficient it's our awareness that we're creatures living in a world of change and that we have a fundamental need for some kind of stability and in fact his treatment of anxiety very much goes in line with Augustinian Maxim that our hearts are restless until they rest in God that idea is very much alive in Kierkegaard's psychology. Now for Kierkegaard if we ignore that kind of call to be authentic human selves that anxiety presents to us well that's when we fall into despair and he even relates despair to the idea of the shadow which obviously plays a pretty significant role in Tolkien's works right the shadow is that kind of alternate that nihilistic call to power to inauthentic power that manifests itself in all kinds of different ways throughout the legendarium. And so ultimately for Kierkegaard that symbolizes despair it's a failure to be your authentic self insubordination to the good which ultimately is God and so I'm still kind of working out these connections in my own head so I don't have a firm thesis but at this point I just kind of see some of these overlapping themes and I'm still kind of working it out something I'd love to explore further once I finish out my dissertation.

A

Andrew Snyder54:26

Yeah just that general idea of the Shadow I mean it sounds like that plays an important role in Kierkegaard's thought and obviously that's a huge concept in Tolkien's thought right so just that overlap there is an interesting point to dwell on for sure but I love this idea of like it sounds like maybe I mean does Kierkegaard like kind of see our anxieties as things we should sort of unpack and be able to almost step outside of and be able to look at from the outside so that we can kind of master that well how does that work.

H

Host55:21

Yeah and so for Kierkegaard we're never necessarily going to master our anxiety in the sense of no longer being anxious for him to be human right as a contingent creature living in a world of time we're going to be anxious because again anxiety really signifies our kind of instability in the world and so it's constantly sort of calling us to become more solidified selves to not latch on to things that are moving right to not try to find stability by you know as Solomon would tell us grasping at vapor. And so I totally forgot where I was going with this to be honest.

A

Andrew Snyder56:07

Oh no don't grasp a vapor yeah exactly and so that anxious call is always going to be there and so something that we need to ultimately embrace as again a call to be something more than changing circumstance.

H

Host56:26

Gotcha yeah wow good stuff it's good stuff well I got to ask because this is the thing that you just gotta talk about when we have fellow Tolkien fans on you said you've been talking before you said you have watched the first season of the Rings of Power what was your reaction being someone who is familiar with the text and everything like that what was your reaction to the first season of the show.

A

Andrew Snyder56:54

I mean obviously in the promotional lead up I was kind of up and down depending on what was coming out more down as it approached but you know I obviously was going to watch it there's no question about that. You know I figured this is a brilliant business move on their side because they're going to get people who love Tolkien and people who love to be upset about Tolkien going wrong and so either way they kind of win with the Tolkien base. But I think overall I've decided I can enjoy watching it if I understand it as Tolkien fan fiction rather than an adaptation of Tolkien you know that kind of lowers the bar and makes it so I'm not quite so upset when they get things wrong except for when they get things more fundamentally wrong. And so I guess in summary I enjoy it it's entertaining it's just it's not an adaptation as I would consider it.

H

Host57:52

Yeah yeah that's that seems to be the like if you're not just a I mean there's lots of people who are just kind of like this is a monstrosity they should be ashamed of themselves and you know and I know where they're coming from but for the people who are just kind of like yeah that seems to be like kind of the general defense is like I just look at it as Tolkien fan fiction you know it's really expensive fan fiction.

A

Andrew Snyder58:18

Here's the thing ultimately we shouldn't necessarily expect that they're gonna get it right I know not the first one to say this but you know we've already talked about kind of the role of humility and sort of lowliness in the Tolkien spirit you can't necessarily expect that to come from Amazon. Of course they're gonna miss out on the spirit of Tolkien would Tolkien like it probably not but I don't know I'm okay accepting it as fun entertainment.

H

Host58:47

Yeah yeah yeah just you know it's I mean I guess that's true of so many things in life right if you can just accept it for what it is then it's a little easier to and just enjoy it on its own and plus I mean here's the thing I still feel like it is a net cultural good simply because even if it is an echo of an echo of Tolkien you still have Tolkien there in some capacity. And I think that's good plus you know at least when it comes to fantasy competitors in the media today you know your Game of Thrones or whatever it's not fundamentally nihilistic and so I do think that there is something culturally beneficial there although they did pick the story that's probably closest that probably could have been like in detail told like a Game of Thrones kind of thing where's the end of Númenor's history you know it's like things get really dark really dark.

A

Andrew Snyder59:51

But yeah I mean I think you know Season one's in the books it's like it is what it is I guess moving forward but I do think that's the silver lining is now there's gonna be a lot more people that want to know more about what he wrote about Númenor and about all these other aspects of the story of the legendarium that maybe weren't as familiar before and also it's just kind of fun to talk about too when it comes to fans of Tolkien and even if the majority of the talking is griping sometimes about it so I mean if we're honest that's kind of fun too.

H

Host1:00:29

It is fun it's you know I mean it reminds me of Frodo who he says that you know the only thing better than a good meal is a bad meal you can complain about that's right.

A

Andrew Snyder1:00:39

That's right there's a lot of truth in that for sure for sure.

H

Host1:00:43

Well Andrew this was this is a lot of fun. I really enjoyed just hearing about everything you've got going on you know about your fascination with Tolkien how that relates to your fascination with Kierkegaard so just some really great nuggets of wisdom coming out of this and we'll have to do it again soon.

A

Andrew Snyder1:01:05

Yeah absolutely love that yeah that'd be fun.

H

Host1:01:09

Well hey everybody thanks for listening I appreciate appreciate you all being here a lot of good stuff coming from the Tolkien Road in 2023 make sure you give Andrew Snyder's podcast Mythic Mind go over and follow it all right it's just a podcast right now not on you don't have a YouTube channel or anything like that.

A

Andrew Snyder1:01:30

Right right just the podcast.

H

Host1:01:32

Just the podcast all right so Mythic Mind go over check it out subscribe he's got a lot of good content about Tolkien over there and then along the way you're gonna find some other content that's not even Tolkien related but it's still pretty good because Andrew's talking about it so go over there and check it out for sure Mythic Mind's myth and is it mythicmind.com.

A

Andrew Snyder1:01:52

So my the website is actually andrewsnyder.com and then you can find the podcast Mythic Mind wherever you get your podcasts.

H

Host1:02:00

Got it all right fantastic all right well all right Andrew thanks again and thanks to everybody for listening and or watching we will talk at you next time bye bye everybody.