A Decade of Alumni with PwC and DLA Piper

And I'm a senior manager at PwC. Charles, you're managing director at DLA Piper. We're really glad to have you here today, and whilst we give everybody the last 30 seconds of their day, uncomfortably perhaps, you could just introduce yourselves before we really dive into the alumni side of the conversation. Maybe we'll go with ladies first and Sally, you can just give us a little introduction to yourself.

Yeah, so I'm Sally Hinson. I'm part of, as I mentioned, the US National alumni team at PwC. I've been with PwC about seven years. Prior to that was with Booz and Company. Prior to that, Deloitte and Knight, running alumni programs there. I'm based out of Raleigh, North Carolina, hence the accent, and looking forward to this conversation today.

Thank you so much for joining. Thank you for coming.

Fantastic. Well, I'll tell you whether I'm being too strict here or whether I'm going to get told off by the team. Two and a half minutes, I feel like we can get cracking. And maybe one or two things to share with everybody who's joining us today, and for those that listen afterwards, so they can see what this is on the screen. We're going to put up a poll, as we usually do, just to help us understand who's joining us today and where they are and their alumni journey, because it gives us a really good opportunity to understand our people. And of course, we've watched this every year — we watch this progress and mature and alumni programs becoming a bit more common than it was a decade ago. And so we've got that survey that we'll ask everybody to participate in, which I think we'll share the findings and talk about those a little bit later on. And so I think I'm going to kick off with you. You are a veritable alumni veteran. You've been involved in alumni at Deloitte and Knight and Booz and obviously now at PwC. A really big question, but maybe how has alumni changed, or how has the perception around alumni changed over the years? I think it must be a good decade that you've been in this.

Yeah, it's been wonderful and fascinating to watch the transformation. I started — I was in the marketing and communications department at Deloitte and Knight, and the CMO there had the idea of starting an alumni program. And it was relatively new for law firms at the time, and they asked if I would lead the effort. And I had no idea what I was doing or where to start. But I felt like it was a wonderful opportunity for me to jump in and learn something brand new. And it really put me on this path to alumni program management. I love the work. When I started at Deloitte and Knight, again, it was the CMO's idea. Attorneys were not quite sure why we were doing this, why we would do this. So a lot of my role was convincing them why it was worthwhile, why there was value in keeping in touch with folks. So fast forward to today, at PwC, we just recently came out with our new people strategy. And part of that people strategy, it includes wellbeing for our people, development and training, our total rewards package, and then the fourth piece of that is Always a PwC Senior. So we've gone from not being sure why we're doing this or investing money and resources into it, to really driving a much bigger program, more resources and more money put against it. So it's been wonderful to watch that evolution.

Thank you for that. And Charles, you've been at DLA Piper for, I think, 20 years, which is spectacular. And has building another alumni community always been important? At what point did you really knuckle down and say we need a community, and we need to do this, and we needed to have a senior sponsor? Was it always sitting with you on day one? Have you had this with your 20-year portfolio, or is it a more recent thing?

Yeah, I think we'll probably pick some things up from each other today, and hopefully everyone else on the line will do the same. A quick reminder, people should feel free to ask questions, and the chances they have done otherwise, please do use the Q&A toolbar. Pop questions in there, feel free to do so anonymously or tell us who you are, where you come from, because it might help and help us frame the question and the source of answers we're looking for. And my goal is to have a really good fireside chat with Charles for the first half an hour, and then let's make sure that we take lots of questions that you have on your mind. So Sally, I mean, you know, maintaining an alumni network — you're not starting from scratch, DLA Piper is not starting from scratch, but can you talk a little bit about your experience and what you're offering alumni and the concept of value? Ultimately, this is a two-way relationship, right? How do you earn and get value from the network? I'd love to just understand that for a big organization like PwC.

Yeah, a lot of it, and I think first starting with looking at what exactly they want depending on level, location, and history, and being able to narrow down what exactly they're looking for. And we do that through surveys to them and also panel discussions. So one of the things I would recommend is asking them first what they're looking for and then focusing on delivering that to them. We know just from conversations, and it tends to be the same sort of feedback every time — they want to be connected to each other. So that's things through like networking events and being in the room with people who are doing the same things that they're doing. They want to be celebrated, so looking at their career trajectory, where they are, where they're going, and celebrating that with them. They want to be inspired, they want to be uplifted. We're offering a lot of career support for people who are not yet at that C-suite level. That's a really important piece and something that they've asked us for. And so I think knowing what they're looking for and then building programs around that is really key.

What type of events do you do on a global or local level?

Yeah, for the US, we're doing mostly local. If they're in person, we're hosting those by market typically. There are some that are more content-driven, practice-driven, industry-driven, and those tend to actually see better attendance. And then we also have — just with the pandemic, we shifted to a lot of virtual alumni events too, so bringing those people together. But we are hearing that they're hungry for that in-person connection again, so we'll be shifting back to that some.

And the types of programs you're doing to enhance alumni experience — I mean, presumably when you started, so we did our first alumni program, it was a spreadsheet and you had a lot to manage, maybe to be more strategic now. What wasn't in my program that now it looks like you weren't able to do?

Yeah, I mean it all goes back to the data, right? Like I remember 10 years ago, I did not have the insights that I have today around what they're engaging with, what they're showing up for. I'm constantly going back to that to review and then pivot if I need to on what I'm offering and how I'm enhancing the program, what they're looking for, what they're engaging with. So 10 years ago I was kind of in the dark about what needed to be done and guessing at what they were looking for and wanting, and now I feel like I have a better grasp on what that is, what that looks like. So data, data, data all the time.

Yeah.

So just sort of related to that, as I was thinking through this conversation today and what we do a lot at PwC is looking for what your company's superpower is, right? Is it the content, is the thought leadership, is it training that's already offered? And looking for ways to leverage what's being offered internally to that external, extending it to that alumni community. So it's already built and there, and they might be at a place now that doesn't offer the same kind of training resources that they were able to get at PwC. So thinking about how to extend that to the alumni population.

Yeah, I think the main thing is that you build that relationship, and so to not maintain it and to not offer — which doesn't really cost a lot and isn't a lot of hassle — it's in many ways like it's not even leaving scraps at the table, just leaving the whole meal there. It's useful for them. The corporate community, I think, is a real superpower that maybe hasn't quite yet been adopted at the right level of all corporate agendas. Because you strengthen communities, you strengthen an army to help you deliver on the things that you want to do, as well as advocates and friends. And Charles, a question for us — when we all shop or use an app for whatever it is we do, or we're learning, we are used to a relevant and contextual experience, as you said, right? It draws us in. Just an outward-bound, one-directional conversation isn't really a conversation. I'm sure for both of you, my inbox is just a constant barrage of things I'm not really familiar with, and even if they do, because they're not personalized, I just simply can't get to it. And how do you deal with the fact that you have a lot of different regions and you've got a lot of different alumni — in-house legal counsel, you've got people who go to industry, you've got non-lawyers as well. What's the kind of purpose with DLA alumni, and can you lean into that? The thing that really stands out — you're talking about it today as managing director of the firm, and it's clearly very important. How do you resource that? Who's supporting you in making this happen?

And people have — I think we've touched on many things, and we've got loads of questions coming in. We'll dig into some of the ones we get, some of the ones that I have, and then we'll pick those up. But what is an alumni — we've kind of touched on one of the questions, and these are people who — not everybody loved everything about their job. Some people were there for six months, some people were there for six years, some were there for 30 years. But typically, when we're all in our jobs, we have some sort of experience that we feel funny about. My first job was at McDonald's, 16, whatever, a year and a half. I can honestly tell you that I love making burgers and fries — probably not so much, but I had a great time. I'm still friends with the people I worked with. My first boyfriend was at McDonald's. It's association with the friends that comes solely from having been a part of my personal journey. The same for the other large companies that I worked for thereafter. So I think that bond — it's something that's a wasted opportunity in many ways.

Yeah, and that — the conversations, even when they start recruiting folks, it should be: we have this alumni network, so even if you don't stay at PwC for a full career, there's still that support after you've left. We invest in you while you're here and we invest in you after you've left.

And Sally, in that regard, how do you innovate in an alumni program so that people are getting a good experience? Yeah, they were excited to learn that it exists, they occasionally want to come to an event or read some research or read up on someone who left who's doing something really interesting. How does that innovation piece fit in from your strategy?

And the innovation — I mean, again, it's going back into the data and what we see there and what needs to shift. I mean, we have a platform now. We look at what people are engaging with, and what sort of events or content that we can present to folks that they're not getting anywhere else. Like the INSPIRE piece that they're looking for is around different events, different resources, what are people at PwC can deliver that they can't get anywhere else. So I think a lot about our people jump between the Big Four, so how is the PwC alumni program going to be different than the Deloitte alumni program or the KPMG or the EY? What about PwC can we bring that those other three can't bring, and then delivering on that.

Hundred percent. And Charles, do you do things on a regional basis? Do you do things on a lawyer/not-a-lawyer basis? I'm sure a lot of your former colleagues are now legal counsel at some of your customers. How do you pick different audiences?

Yeah, and there has been a question about platforms people are using. And I think ultimately, one of you is a client and one of you were having great conversations with, so we will pass on that. But if you've got questions about that, that feels a bit too practical for me to ask those questions. I'm sure Sally and Charles welcome a message on LinkedIn or something in that regard. And the reality is that we all go to people for help with what we need to do. If I need legal advice, I go to DLA Piper. If I need advice on accounting and consulting, I go to PwC, and we know what Enterprise Alumni does for a living. And Sally, I've got a question for you, and actually we've got an enormous amount of questions coming directly in the chat and in the Q&A. So it may be more just to take one or two more each directly and then let's head on in some of the things that people are thinking about when you're both talking. Can you talk to us a little bit about what your goals are for your alumni program this year? Yeah, take some of that for us.

Yeah, and the things that we're thinking about — I won't speak specifically to the goals for FY23, but the things that we think about and I recommend other folks thinking about is to operate with a 360-degree view of your alumni, because a lot of your alumni are potential customers, or they are customers. And looking at what they're getting from the business compared to what the alumni program is sending to them. So looking at that person as a whole, as a contact for your company. Also thinking about alumni as an extension of the firm. So for a long time it was, you know, we've got this internal community and then the external community, but really looking at that as the alumni are an extension and trying to bring them under the tent as often as possible to know what's happening within the firm, being the first to know what's happening there. And of course, creating a program and content that delivers value to them. And I think a lot for this year is meeting people where they are and making it easy for them to get a hold of. So whether that's by whatever level they're at, what industry they're in, their location — it needs to be easy and relevant to them. So it's not a one-size-fits-all situation anymore. Leveraging tech, of course, and being more tech-enabled. Thinking about people that are getting out of school now — they're digital natives. This is what they're doing, and being able to keep up with that alumni program perspective. I had a friend tell me — she's a therapist and she was working with a young client, and she said, 'Well, I'll just send it over to you in an email,' and he started laughing, like, 'No more email, we're just doing text.' So things are shifting for people, it's not the same as it used to be. So thinking about that and trying to keep up with that. Being able to play matchmaker for alumni — that's another big piece for us. Whether that be in their career, connecting to experts in their area — there are all sorts of ways that we can bring and connect alumni to the people that they need to be connected to. Also thinking about making them part of our purpose at PwC. So are there volunteer opportunities that they can get involved in? Are there gatherings that are more outside of the business scope of what we're doing? And then just elevating that alumni client experience. So looking at the alumni who are based at accounts that we're working with — that's a lot about meeting them where they are. They're working at Amazon, for example, they're a PwC alum, they want to meet other PwC alumni. So bringing that group together, bringing content to that group that's working at Amazon that's relevant to them. Those are all the things that we're focused on, in addition to the new people strategy with the Always a PwC Senior. And that's a lot to do with retention, boomerang hires, you know, that experience when they come back to the firm, what that looks like for them and what the benefit is for them to come back. And convincing them, you know, this is not the PwC you've left, and here's why it's changed, here's why there's value in returning to our firm. A few things on the list. Yes, to the converted — we're coming to people. You know, that's right.

You're very clear — this is part of employer branding, marketing, new business for both of your firms. It's obviously the right thing to do and creating a community. But you did mention the word boomerang, and of course LinkedIn says that the average boomerang is three and a half percent of companies recruit up to about 20 percent of their workforce from alumni. So obviously this has a recruitment part to it too. Is that a priority for you, Sally and Charles?

Yeah, I mean there's a lot in there. We've been covering a lot over what, half an hour chat. And I will have one more question and then I'm going to dig into some that we've got from people on the line. A question for both of you, which we discussed a lot at Enterprise Alumni because we get asked the question: what is an alumni? Who are alumni? When do you start engaging them? Now, as soon as people leave, they become former employees, and we know that bit about onboarding. But do you have a definition of alumni? What constitutes alumni? Because some companies, for example, say you have to be with us for over a month or a year, you have to be in a certain level. But we really believe in inclusivity. I mean, why limit experience? But we understand some people have reasons for that. Can you talk to us a little bit about what constitutes an alumni, for both of you? And then over to the questions.

Yeah. And this is something else that's changed in a major way since I've been in this work. We technically define alumni if they've been with the firm six months and left on either voluntary or involuntary, left on good terms. So we are super inclusive. Ten years ago it was nobody who's going to a competitor, they had to have been here a year, and they were voluntary departures. So it's really changed to be much more inclusive today. And it's my view that I look at even recruits as future alumni, and people that start on day one — talking about that in onboarding about our alumni network. There's still some difficulty in convincing the onboarding team, the employee team, you know, that we need to be talking about this on day one. We cannot assume that people are going to be here forever, and we need to normalize having these conversations. And knowing, having that knowledge that this community exists makes our job easier once people do depart.

Thank you, thank you very much for that. And I'm going to rapid-fire take a bunch of questions and get started with those because we've got a lot here. Bear with me to get through the ones — some of them are repetitions, we can group them up in the room. Charles, question to start off with you — maybe you can both give me short answers on as many of these as you can. A question from Laura Chambers who's at Reed Smith, a law firm, which I guess is one of your peers, possibly Charles. How large are your alumni teams and what structure works best for running a program effectively? And I know from my own experience that it changes drastically as you progress through an alumni program. What do you need when you get to the stage you need someone that can deal with data? But maybe you could give Laura a feel for that journey.

So yeah, I mean for us, you know, in the old days I was a one-woman show. Now — and they were smaller programs, right? The Deloitte and Knight was around 5,000, Booz was about 10,000, and then PwC engaged alumni we have around 70,000, so much bigger. But for a long time our team was only two and a half. But with the people strategy changing, there have been a lot more resources dedicated to the program, so we're up to four and a half now. So that's where we are today, and it's a lot about providing strategy and guidance to people on the ground executing those programs, whether it be in the offices or account-team-based. We have helpers, and that's one of the things I would recommend people doing these programs — you really need to build up your internal army, because you typically are a very small team, and there are people that you're going to need across all sorts of departments. So it's HR, it's employer branding, it's offboarding and onboarding. So I really cozy up to a representative in all of those.

Yeah. This sort of goes to one of the reasons that we all chose to join us today and ties into a question we have, which is that whole concept of alumni sponsorship. And we find that programs that have a senior sponsor are three times more successful. Now, successful is a broad collection of metrics, but it's the most clear indicator it really matters. I've got a question: I've just started a new role at an alumni program in a large law firm. Question for Charles: how did DLA Piper decide who should be the sponsor? I want to get a partner sponsor, but the question is who? What's your advice?

I was about to say, one of my passion is — no one says don't ask, don't get. So I guess that's the short version of the answer, and hopefully that helps out. If it helps, you know, to tell your senior partner or managing director that Charles is the sponsor at DLA, so surely there should be someone with commensurate experience and corporate clout who's responsible.

And I just want to add on there. I wrote up a job description when I was looking for a partner sponsor for the alumni program. I wrote up the job description and then shopped that around. Because I've been on both sides of this where we haven't had a partner sponsor and then when we had — I mean, we moved ten times faster when we had a partner or someone at the top advocating for the program. Much easier. So I — it is key, I highly recommend finding that person.

Yeah, and I mean, it's not hard to engage somebody about why this matters because it's quite personal, it's quite human, right? No one ever said, 'Sorry, I abandoned — and left doing something wonderful.' Whatever it is, yes, it's very human. And a question from Fidelity: how are you adapting your corporate alumni program for the changing demographics of the workforce, and in particular Gen Z and millennials? I know that from our experience and from the metrics that we have about where people go on sites and what people read, different demographics are attracted to different things. Discounts, perks, and offers — typically more millennial. White papers, research, and learning — typically there's a different demographic associated with that. Can you give us a taster of what you've had to either change given this generation, or what you've learned from them? To start with you, Charles — some pearls of wisdom from you.

Yeah, I agree with that — bringing in people as representatives of those groups and hearing firsthand from them on what works for them, I think that's key.

Thank you very much for that. We've got a couple of questions from Abby and who's your favorite — a law firm, and I'm going to slightly blend them and make a suggestion of how we can answer one of them. The question to pose to both of you, but you'll have 60 seconds to think about the answer when I say the second half. Is what type of data are you really looking at? What are the metrics you're reporting on or using to customize your program? Or perhaps for Charles, what metrics do you want and aspire to? And the second thing — and by the way, if I haven't read your question, I'm trying to keep up with them and we're taking a note. And if we miss anything, we'll make sure to pick it up afterwards. You were asking me about that job description of internal alumni sponsor, a little bit about what the key factors sounding was looking for, why Charles has picked this up. So perhaps what we'll do after this is we'll put together a piece of thought leadership. Maybe Charles and Sally can continue to give us a quote or a little bit of the wisdom that they've shared here, and we'll send it afterwards for you to do what you need with it. So you've had your 30 to 60 seconds — what are you measuring? What counts? I mean, certainly for you, as a long journey where data is really important.

Yeah, I guess I can start because we have this really ugly Google Sheet that has all the things that we're trying to track year over year. It's been super helpful, though, to see the progress we've made. So we're looking across several different functions. Recruiting is one of them, obviously — looking at boomerang hires, how many people are coming back, and what the cost savings is for the firm based on those numbers. We look at opt-in rates for the program and just the offboarding process in general, constantly looking to see if there are ways we can improve that experience so that we're capturing more people before they walk out the door. We look at how many complete contact records we have for alumni — so how many people can we reach out of our full community. We look at career support — if we placed someone or found an opportunity or filled a void on their team, we're tracking that. We look at event engagement — so either a virtual alumni event or an in-person event, and the attendance rate on those, who's showing up, who's in the room. We obviously, for emails, we're looking at engagement rates there — click-through rate and open rate. But also we started doing a bit of testing around the engaged alumni community versus the unengaged, and trying to alter that B group a bit to see if we can move them into the more engaged alumni population. So that's been really fun to see. And then social engagement too — on our LinkedIn groups or the firm-wide handles where we push out alumni content. So that's really kind of in a nutshell what we look at.

Just a little nutshell. I mean, I know you're on a real journey with data analytics and obviously we're thrilled to be part of that journey. I think that there are probably two steps that are quite interesting on a very broad level, and people when they're thinking about this across that whole business. Monthly engagement — how frequently someone logs in. I think the objective is never 100%, as you know, you don't necessarily need people to be on the portal, you need to be able to reach them when you need to. I think probably is a good sign of how effective the program is working. And a very broad one I thought I'd just pick out — two is email engagement, because open rates often tell us very quickly how well the targeting is working, how compelling the message is. I'll start from our side and I'd say in terms of — one moment, sorry. This is a brief moment where I was about to lose my voice, but I managed to pick it back up again. And I think financial services — for us, what we've done a lot of research in, and consultancy in, and professional services is a really good testament to the level of engagement possible where alumni are prioritized and shown that they are a special group, they're being given attention, which is essentially what we're focused on. And we did some research over the last quarter and for businesses that have a focus, a bidirectional way to engage with alumni, they have an average of 25% open rates for standard external marketing campaigns, 40% for internal communication blasts, and with monthly newsletters and content that's very specifically alumni-focused, with a platform that allows you to be very targeted — those same clients are seeing open rates of 65 to 75%. So I think it's a lesson that we all know intuitively, which is if you talk to people about things that are relevant to them, that matter to them, and show them that they are important — not just in one large blob group — you can really escalate your metrics. And therefore measuring those against the business metrics is a really great way to show success, because we know they're going to look good. That's a good piece of feedback to give to senior management. And if you're in the early days of your alumni community, as to why this really matters, why these people are engaged. And Charles, did you have anything on that tough question?

Well indeed, and you can get what you — you put people in a bucket if they're already somewhere, and that's the good stuff. But then to really understand what to do with them, you need to own that information. And as you say, sadly, you know, instead of the past where maybe that information was on Google — was amazing, very proud of you that are a customer — but ultimately you don't own that information. So you want to be owning the information, and I think that is a real theme of some of the questions that are up here.

And to put it in real-life terms, Emma and Charles — one of the examples that we — for our data, we looked at the opt-in rates as people left the firm, and it was relatively low. So we went back to see what does that onboarding experience look like. Is there anything here we can change? Can we surface that alumni survey or questionnaire opt-in opportunity earlier in the offboarding process? And so we shifted that and then did see a change and an increase in those opt-in rates. But it's also, I think, a challenge because you have all that data to prioritize what you're going to look at first and what you're going to try to shift first. For us, it was the opt-in rates, because obviously we needed more people into the program, so we had to stop the bleeding there before we can move on to the next piece of data.

Yeah, take jobs, but ultimately, as we all know, if you can measure it, you can start to address either fixing it or improving it. And we've got a couple more questions — I've got some on my list as well. And one of the questions that I've got here: Charles, can you talk to any differences between alumni communities in APAC, the Middle East, and elsewhere? We have international perspectives that join our webinars that are very interesting and compelling, but we tend to find that people like to be localized in their community. Any nuggets that you can share in that regard?

Yeah, we all like to be with like-minded people. And as well, by physical — to start at the top, right? We talked about the journey of teams. If you're a team of one, like Sally was back in the day, you know, you have to do what you have for the time and resources you have available. So if all you can do is have something global, that's a great start. But the journey, I guess — and Sally, you and your team are an example of that — is when you really start to micro-focus on regions, skills. That's the journey.

And the global aspect — so, you know, we have firms all over the world and we've sort of been operating in a silo depending on our territory. But in the last couple of years, we built an informal Global Alumni Leaders Network, so having touchpoints with all of those people that are on the ground in our territories driving these alumni programs and doing things like pulling together a global alumni brand so that we all look the same when we're out in the market. Sharing learnings from different territories or things happening in Germany or Australia that the rest of the network can learn from. So it's been great to have that internal network of people, but also trying to stay consistent with the PwC brand and global alumni program.

Fantastic. Thank you. I guess time flies when you're having fun. I've got a couple of questions here, but I — well, that's the news, they're still here. There's one less person who actually sent me a direct message saying I'm really sorry, I have to go, but I'll message after. So when you're — you're putting the croutons in, me and Charles. And I'll pick a question that I guess it's really again quite broad but takes us towards some lump questions, which is for both of you: where does your program go from here, and what are your future plans? So presumably you're thinking about 2023. Sally, you talked about the reality that people want to get back together again. Have you got anything you can share about what's next?

I think for us it's being more targeted and meeting people where they are, whether that be in their career, their level, industry, location. So giving that customized experience to the alumni that we're most interested in. So that's also an important piece — it's like slicing and dicing the data and being able to focus on the groups that matter to your business. I mean, that's — it's not a very nice way to put it, but that's how we've had to — I mean, our program is massive. So being able to identify people who are important — and not just people in that C-suite level. I feel like, and this is across all the companies I've worked with, they like to engage with those people once they're in the C-suite. The kind of backing up and looking at people before they get there, who are on the track to that C-suite level, and what are you giving to them and how are you building that relationship with them ahead of them getting to be that decision-maker influencer in their business. So tapping into that.

And one thing that's keeping me up at night, and I'd love to have conversations with people who are thinking about this too, is because work has changed so quickly — especially with the pandemic, more people going virtual. Like what does — work, it's not like we're going into the office, or at least a few of us, and we're not going into the office five days a week. We're not building the same types of relationships that we were five years ago. So what is the impact of that kind of shift in work on an alumni program? That's what's keeping me up, and how are we going to have to address based on what the workplace looks like today.

I mean, the building block of that is that you're in touch and you have that relationship, so you're getting that information back, right? You can't always say in life, in alumni, you can't be everything to everybody. By maintaining that connection — you know, through the pandemic you were able to communicate with a huge pool of people, and everybody needed a community. And we all lean on different groups at different times and operate. So yeah, but it's something that you both consider to be critical to both internal and external culture. And everything says it all. And I know that we've got about 17 seconds left, and we've got a collection of questions, bits of feedback — some of them are in the chat, some directly to me. I know that I haven't been able to ask all the questions on everybody's mind, but we've covered a lot of the questions on a lot of minds. And we will share some of the information I put in chat to the people that have asked for it. Sally and Charles, thank you very much for your time. I think you've given everybody a lot of food for thought and reminded us all that there's hard work and senior drive behind this when alumni's done best. But also recognizing, in particular, Sally, from your short story that you were able to touch on today — that you started with much like a business, right? You started with not very much, not very much time, not very much resource, and essentially it's a journey. So hopefully everybody at different stages of their journey has got a little nibble today or something they find useful. Charles, Sally, thank you very much indeed, and thank you to everybody on the line who's joined us today. Really, really appreciate it. Have a lovely afternoon, morning, wherever you are in the world, and speak to you all soon.

Thank you.