President & CEO, Honeywell UOP, Honeywell UOP LLC
EPC Interview with Bryan Glover, President & CEO, HONEYWELL UOP
Our Vice President, Stefan Chapman, recently caught up with Bryan Glover, President & CEO, HONEYWELL UOP to discuss some of the key challenges and opportunities facing the downstream industry in its journey to a more sustainable future.
About Bryan Glover
In interviews from 2021 and 2022, Bryan Glover stated that hydrocarbons will remain a significant part of the global energy mix for some time and emphasized the importance of using them as efficiently as possible during the transition to a lower-carbon future. He said the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region is well-positioned for lower-carbon solutions due to its combination of upstream production and downstream refining, which he said creates opportunities for carbon capture and storage and for tailoring products to lower carbon intensity. Glover described the repurposing of existing refinery assets into biorefineries as a "very strong growing thread" in the industry. Glover discussed challenges for developing a hydrogen economy, stating that green hydrogen will take longer to develop because it requires significant growth in renewable primary energy sources to ensure a net reduction in greenhouse gas intensity. He also noted that the COVID-19 pandemic may have accelerated the peak in fuels consumption by up to five years due to changes in working habits and energy use. Glover advocated for collaboration across the value chain, saying that conferences and conversations help stakeholders understand each other's challenges and opportunities to accelerate progress on decarbonization.
Transcript (48 segments)
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Stefan Chapman0:08
Welcome everybody. My name is Stefan Chapman and I am Vice President at Euro Petroleum Consultants. For those who do not know us, we are an independent consultancy active in the oil, gas, and petrochemical sectors. For the past 25 years we've been involved in project implementation and project management, and also during that time we've been organizing industry-recognized conferences on a variety of different topics linked to the industry. And we're very proud to be organizing the first Energy and Sustainability Forum, ESF 2021, and this event will be focusing on the key topic of decarbonizing the downstream industry.
So today I'm honored, very honored to be joined by one of the forum's keynote speakers and sponsors, Mr. Bryan Glover, President and CEO of Honeywell UOP. Although I'm sure all of you are very familiar with Honeywell UOP, I'd like to just say a few words. Honeywell UOP is a leading supplier of process technologies, a producer of catalysts, engineered systems, and technical and engineering services for the global petroleum industry—that is, refining, petrochemicals, chemicals, and gas processing sectors. So Bryan has been with Honeywell UOP for 35 years, and prior to his current position as President and CEO, Bryan served as Vice President and General Manager for the refining business within UOP Process Technology, and before that he was the Senior Director of Development in R&D. He is an established and greatly respected leader in our industry, and we're delighted to be able to catch up with Bryan today ahead of the event to be able to discuss some of the key topics that are facing our industry in its journey to a more sustainable future. So Bryan, thank you for joining us today and congratulations on the new role. Hope all is well with you. How is life right now in Illinois at UOP in these extraordinary times that we are living in?
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Bryan Glover2:22
Hey, well, Stefan, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here today with you. And as you say, it is a little bit of a different and challenging time at the moment. Things are okay in Illinois. I think we're facing a lot of the same challenges that everyone else has, but you know, certainly the pace of change in the world, the pace of vaccinations, things like that are moving us along. And I think we're hopefully on our way back to a little bit more normal, a little less of the new normal, and maybe a little more normal. But certainly I think we're headed in the right direction. But certainly a lot of change and challenge coming out of what we've seen happening over the last year or so.
And it's interesting the way that it's affected the vectors of our industry. And I think this discussion today is even a good example of that. The pace at which we're seeing customers really embracing the changes that are needed for sustainability has been dramatic. You know, 12 months ago there was a very active discussion on sustainability issues and a fair amount of action going on, but we've seen the pace of that discussion and the pace of people planning for action globally increase dramatically over the past several months. I think especially driven by the realization that some existing assets that seemed very viable 12 months ago—in the current demand climate and in the near-term demand climate—some of those assets really don't look as viable anymore today. And I think a lot of players in the markets are taking that as an opportunity to move forward more directly with some of the sustainability plans that they had been making, and seeing that there's a chance now to really accelerate those and increase the pace that they're moving.
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Stefan Chapman4:32
Yeah, it's been really interesting to see the drive, the innovation within the industry driving this forward—the question of sustainability—and it's promising as well. The news that you're giving us from the US. Here in Europe, I think we're slightly behind you guys and hopefully we'll be able to catch up so that we can see a more promising outlook in the coming months.
This last year has certainly been unique. It's been a challenging period for all. The global pandemic has had far-reaching repercussions, and it's impacted all sectors. We've seen all industries being impacted. So if I may, I'd simply like to start by asking: what are we seeing currently—refiners and petchem producers doing to try and maintain their competitive edge in these difficult or unique market conditions?
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Bryan Glover5:43
Yeah, I think it's been a range of actions that people have taken, and definitely evolved over time. You know, a year ago, I think immediately we saw people scale back on spending any way that they could, right? So deferring maintenance, pushing back for sure on plans on capital spend, but also pushing back plans on consumable materials such as catalysts, absorbents—anything that they could extend, pushing out turnarounds. We saw many of our customers doing that, scaling back operations or maybe even idling plants within a larger network of assets. So those were the immediate actions that people were taking.
Since then, I think we've seen a move in some places towards a more normal posture, but then a lot of renewed strategic thinking about what will people do with some of the more economically challenged assets that they have. And so we've seen a pickup in the pace that people are looking at moving from fossil fuel operations to maybe hydroprocessing of animal and vegetable oils rather than fossil fuels in some of their assets. We've seen plans maybe to permanently idle some capacity that's less economically viable than others. And we've certainly seen a change in focus and processing of feed slates. We've seen clients adapt the crude that they're running through the refinery in order to meet the local demand they have for transportation fuels, as the amount of demand for gasoline and diesel has dropped and not necessarily dropped in equivalent proportions. We definitely see customers looking to adjust feed slate in order to better get the range of products that they want. And I think in all regions we've seen everyone working to minimize the amount of kerosene that's produced as well, given the amount of airline travel that's down—so pushing kerosene into gasoline, pushing kerosene into diesel, trying to minimize that to the extent that they can.
So that's where we saw people really starting. Now I'd say in the environment today, we're seeing more discussion of very focused capital plans to begin to start to look at a little bit of repositioning, retooling of assets to maybe begin a transformation towards increased petrochemical production, begin a transformation towards more renewable fuels production through feedstock changes—non-fossil feedstocks for particularly diesel and jet. And I think the other thing that we're starting to see is a much greater interest in sustainability-related projects, either projects to significantly modernize or update technologies, especially in the petrochemical space, to get to a much lower energy consumption per ton of product that's produced, or seeing people start to look at more sustainable forms of operations such as carbon capture from hydrogen production or other refining operations as a first step towards reducing their carbon intensity in a more dramatic way than you could just simply through improved energy efficiency and traditional operations.
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Stefan Chapman9:31
Yeah, so there's definitely a lot of things to consider, and I think selecting the right strategy for the right plant, adapting yourselves to market conditions is of great importance to each producer.
At ESF 2021, where as I mentioned we're going to be focusing on energy transition but also our industry's drive towards greater decarbonization—if we take into account, you know, considering the events of the past year and the ongoing effects—do you think that COVID-19 has accelerated our industry's pivot to sustainability, and if yes, why?
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Bryan Glover10:24
Yeah, it seems that COVID-19 has accelerated the pivot. I think that's become increasingly clear over the last six months. You know, initially maybe it wasn't obvious, but I think there's at least two and probably more factors. You know, the first one is there's no doubt about it—the dramatic reduction in fuels demand is going to remove some of the oldest producing assets from the fleet, right? So there's a not insignificant amount of announced refinery closures out there, and those are going to be some of the least economically efficient and from a carbon footprint some of the least efficient as well. So I think that's one thing driving customers today.
But with those closures, there's a fair amount of operators who are looking to repurpose at least some of those assets, right? So closing a full refinery and turning it into a biorefinery, processing non-edible vegetable or animal fats and oils to produce diesel and kerosene—we've seen that as actually a very, very strong growing trend within the industry. And we've seen those kinds of biofuels interest increasing at a rate that's much higher than we expected even a year ago. So that's I think one opportunity that's driving the pivot.
I think longer term, the realization that the peak in fuels consumption is likely to come maybe up to five years earlier now than it would have pre-COVID, because not only has the current demand been reset, but working habits and working from home versus working in an office, and different ways of shopping, I think are really changing the footprint around fuel use, energy consumption in general. And I think we are at something of a new normal. It needs to be shaken out yet what that's going to be one or two years from now, but I think we're moving towards a situation where immediate energy demand has been reset to a lower value, but the growth of that energy demand, just because of structural changes in society and structural changes around work habits, are going to mean that growth is going to be slower going forward, which will lead to a natural earlier peak. So I think that's another thing that's just driving the industry towards a faster transformation around sustainability—is just lower growth.
And I think one of the other factors that's helping in this is economic stimulus. So as governments globally look at the opportunity to re-accelerate economies coming out of the COVID epidemic, we're seeing that one of the places that governments really want to put stimulus money—if they're going to provide stimulus money—is into sustainability. So I think there are increased opportunities and there will be increased opportunities for people in this space to be able to advance projects focused on sustainability because of incentives, whether it's government sponsorship of sustainability programs, direct government sponsorship, tax credits, or even other structures around carbon taxes. I think these are going to be managed by governments globally in a way that creates opportunities for an increased pace of change to sustainable technologies.
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Stefan Chapman14:09
Yes, I totally agree. I think it's very important that this is seen as an opportunity not only for countries but also for our industry. So it's promising to hear that.
We've also been hearing and seeing about these different strategies, potential strategies being put in place. How successful do you deem the current strategies—these current strategies being put in place by certain refiners, certain petrochemical producers—to address the demands of greater decarbonization? How successful do you deem those? Although our approaches and strategies differ depending on which region the producer is located in.
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Bryan Glover15:08
Yeah, I think the strategies have had varying levels of success right now, and it is very much affected by the region and affected even by the country. You know, as we look at renewable diesel fuel—so diesel produced from vegetable and animal oils and fats—there's tremendous opportunities regionally for that in the United States, especially in light of the Low Carbon Fuel Standards in California or in general the West Coast of North America, and other blending credits available in the US. It's easy today to put together, I think, quite profitable projects that take advantage of incentives that are out there, address the need, and more and more can take advantage of existing assets. So it's not necessarily a new build—it's a transformation of something that was already in the refinery or repurposing of the refinery in general. The incentives that are available in some parts of the United States are really driving that and creating a lot of opportunity. Early adopters in that space are well positioned to do very, very well.
In Europe, in certain areas there are good incentives in order to drive those projects forward. Other areas of the world it's maybe a little bit based on corporate priorities or maybe opportunistic availability of feedstock or a local need for specific defined amounts of renewable fuels—particular maybe renewable jet in order to participate in certain markets. So in general, I think when it's well supported by governments today or well supported by particularly players in industry that feel a compelling need for those feedstocks, I think there are great opportunities to move forward. But the landscape isn't even globally, and so I think it is very regional.
One of the areas that has become of significant interest lately is carbon capture and sequestration, particularly around some of the significant point source emitters for CO2. And one of the largest of those in the refining and petrochemical space today is the CO2 that's generated through steam methane reforming to produce hydrogen. And that's a particularly interesting application. We see a lot of discussion about it today because it's a CO2 source that's relatively concentrated, it's a relatively high source of production in a refining plant, and it's pretty straightforward to get at today.
And what we see is, in the United States today for example, there's a tax credit program that goes by the name of 45Q that generally can make those kinds of projects even today quite attractive to get into. In fact, we just announced a little over a week ago—it's not a steam methane reformer project, but a blue hydrogen project that we're participating in the US—where the tax credits that are available to early adopters dramatically help in getting those projects funded and getting them to move forward. And so in regions and geographies where that kind of stimulus is available from governments, we see that projects can be viable today based on the economics of the production of the product itself, but also with some of the governmental support that's coming in the form of tax credits or other direct support. But they're not wildly out of phase with the amount of value that can be secured in putting those forward. So I think that's really driving the industry as well—looking at some of these things and getting early adopters, and the time to take advantage of those credits I think is really now. And the ability to put together a project seems very, very viable for those that are interested in really making a difference at this point.
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Stefan Chapman19:20
Yeah, I think in your answer you briefly mentioned about certain sites and assets being reusing existing units. And if we look at our industry as a whole, I think we could consider it to be somewhat of a mature industry. We have existing assets that are differing in complexity, differing in age, in configuration. How do you think our industry can build its options with regards to the future with the assets it already has, in terms of key enabling technologies, and more specifically—from a Honeywell UOP point of view—how your technologies could help producers move forward?
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Bryan Glover20:14
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. I think our industry is one that's characterized by being a very capital-intensive industry, but I think the other thing that's very interesting about it is the industry has a very, very long history of being, I'll say, extraordinarily effective at utilizing that capital once it's on the ground. So if you look at the average age of a refinery in the world, or even the average age of an operating unit, it's impressive at how asset owners have been able to keep those units vital and active and revenue generators over very, very long periods of time. So the industry has a great track record of once that capital is on the ground, really maintaining it and getting the best out of it. And I think that's the exciting part of this—that in an industry that's traditionally operated like that, the opportunities are very high.
One I've mentioned a couple times already—the ability to take existing hydrocracking or other hydroprocessing units, convert those into renewable diesel, renewable jet units—I think that's a great and relatively low-cost and effective way that people can move into that space. But beyond that, transformation deeper into petrochemical production from a refinery generally requires some enabling bridge technologies. So for instance, a refinery that's maybe very gasoline-based with an FCC unit at its core—there's technologies available today like olefin cracking technology that without a massive refit of that refinery can significantly increase the amount of propylene and to some extent ethylene that's generated out of that FCC without a giant revamp, but also significantly reducing gasoline production at the same time.
Integration of propane dehydrogenation into a relatively large refinery can take propane that's already being produced and may be used as a fuel or simply being sold, and can turn that into a valuable source of income. We look at steam methane reforming—great example. The hydrogen from steam methane reforming, to transition that from the typical gray hydrogen that's produced today where there's no CO2 capture, to a blue hydrogen system where there's CO2 capture—that same steam methane reformer can be used. It's the addition of some additional processing steps that are pretty cost-effective, can be dropped down around that steam methane reformer and then convert it to a far more sustainable operation going forward.
So I think there's a lot of things that can be done. I've really just touched on a few of them, but from our perspective we look at how we can help the customer base out there today with what I would refer to as bridging technologies, right? We know that it's not going to be viable for someone to transform a refinery or an integrated refining-petrochemical plant today by idling significant portions of it and building new. So we're very focused on technologies that can bridge from one to the other by getting a lot of leverage. And so things like olefin cracking, things like technologies we have for molecular sorting—sorting so that we can optimize the feed that might go into a steam cracker versus the feed that would go into a catalytic reformer and generate higher yields out of both, again without significantly transforming the entire refinery or the integrated petrochemical complex, but getting leverage by upgrading the quality of feed to existing units and increasing product slates that way.
So we think that's the approach. We think that's the approach that's going to give people the most flexibility to do step at a time, stage-wise transform towards one, lower carbon footprint, and two, towards higher petrochemical output. And we've been talking about this for quite some time under the banner of Refinery of the Future, where we see an opportunity and a process to really take any existing asset today and on a very customized basis lay out a roadmap that allows, with bridging technologies, somebody to move from where they envision they need to be tomorrow, but then also have the flexibility going forward to change that vision as the times change and not be stuck with a bunch of sunk investment that really can't be recovered. So I think the opportunity is actually pretty bright for people to move forward, but I think the key is really looking at the strategies now and starting to develop those roadmaps and understanding where they can go and what pace they think they need to get there, but then being well positioned to accelerate if the situation dictates, or slow down if the situation dictates as well.
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Stefan Chapman25:32
Yes, I think talking of roadmaps, I think clearly defined roadmaps as you said, as you mentioned, are critical to successful plan implementing those types of plans. And also flexibility, like you say, so that you're able to sometimes slow down or accelerate, or modify slightly, adapt to certain conditions. So that's very important.
Talking of important topics, another one that springs to mind and something that we've been hearing a lot in the media as well as within our industry is circular economy. We've seen a number of companies—producers whether that be BP, Exxon, Total, and so forth—adopting high-yield circular economy strategies. Why do you think this is important, and what is the value proposition and commercialization status of certain plastic conversion technologies at the moment?
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Bryan Glover26:45
Yeah, it's a pretty interesting question because in general when we think about plastics, there's a strong net benefit for plastics in that they replace a lot of materials that may be naturally derived but aren't necessarily all that friendly and all that sustainable. So if we think about polyester versus cotton, there's broad sustainability advantages of polyester versus cotton when you look at a very holistic life-cycle view. When we think about the positive impact that plastics have in terms of energy reduction, light-weighting of vehicles, reduced energy intensity in manufacturing, there's a strong net positive benefit. And I think the world needs that net positive benefit, especially when we think about durable goods. We take natural gas, we take oil out of the ground, we turn that into something that's durable—and it's not like fuels refining where all of the material from the oil or natural gas is being released back into the environment as CO2. We're creating a durable product that has high sustainability value within society.
So I think plastics are going to continue to form a very, very important part of the ecosystem as we go forward. But the problem is not with the materials themselves—the problem is with the lack of a completely closed cycle with the materials. So while recycling exists today, the majority of plastics that enter the market don't enter that recycling chain in an effective way, or if they do enter the chain can sometimes be lost. And so the biggest issue with plastics today as we see it is the materials that leave the chain and the materials that end up being waste, polluting in one way or another—whether it's on land or in the oceans. And I think that's raised everyone's awareness of the problem because it becomes very visible and very direct.
I think by and large that's a first-order issue that needs to be solved by circularity, but the other issue that can be solved by circularity is the fact that plastics that go into especially non-durable goods—if we can recycle those and minimize the amount of new material that needs to be generated—ultimately there's an opportunity to scale back on the overall production of virgin plastics and be able to hopefully scale back the carbon intensity of those initial manufacturing steps. So there's a lot of interest in circular economy as far as plastics, and there's a lot of opportunity. The circular economy for plastics has existed for a long time, from mechanical recycling, downcycling of particular polymers, but to really push this to scale and to really make it something that has a broad impact, we've got to move beyond that and find a way to really get mixed plastics into the chain and be able to handle them at scale, and to be able to return those to essentially any materials that we want that re-enter the chain—whether it's going back to polyolefins or going back to other specialty plastics.
We need to move away from the fact that we can take a polyester bottle and turn it back into something that's polyester. We need to have more flexibility in how we close the chain. And so a lot of interest, there's a lot of activity going on. It's a big area of engagement for us, and working with actually a range of potential partners today to get—we hope very quickly—into recycling operations that can take mixed waste streams and turn them back into raw materials for steam cracker operations, for FCC operations, in order to generate new polyol for new olefin feedstocks for production into polyolefin. So I think we'll continue to see a lot of activity here. I think in the short term this is really driven by a desire for waste reduction, but as we move forward, I think we're convinced that there will be some strong economic benefit from doing this. There's going to have to be an increased amount of sorting capacity on the ground in order to get the feedstocks readily available at the price point that they need to be available, but once we get there, the types of feedstocks that you can generate from recycled plastic materials should be very advantageous to go into olefin production and potentially even back into aromatic production. So I think there's a lot of opportunity here.
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Stefan Chapman31:44
Yes, I think it'll be a very strong focus—the recycling to be more efficient, like you say, and also on a grander scale. I think it's going to be a strong focus for the industry in the coming years.
If we look at the event, ESF, we have Beth Carter from Honeywell UOP who is Clean Hydrogen Business Leader, and she'll be presenting at the event on decarbonization and also blue hydrogen solutions. If possible, could you tell us a little bit more on that topic?
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Bryan Glover32:32
Yeah, so it's very exciting to us that Beth will be at the event, and I think she'll have a lot of great information and great details to share. But for us, decarbonization in general and blue hydrogen are very exciting spaces because, one, there's a clear opportunity and a clear need in the market for solutions, but two, so much of the solutions that are needed are technologies that are largely existing already, and it's the application of those technologies to the new problem or the new opportunity that creates the new solution. And so Beth is going to be talking about a range of very implementable solutions that are available today.
I mentioned earlier on blue hydrogen. Blue hydrogen is probably far more achievable today than many people think. In a conventional steam methane reformer, it doesn't take a lot of transformation in order to move that forward into a largely blue operation. And she'll be sharing details, but basically the approach that we're looking at today as a primary approach is to add cryogenic fractionation technology that can take the tail gas out of the PSA unit that's already associated with a steam methane reformer and generate a liquid CO2 stream from that in a pretty cost-effective way, and then generate a tail gas stream that can go back to the steam methane reformer to be used as fuel or in some cases even to provide some additional hydrogen within that SMR. And it's not a big scary revamp—it's pretty straightforward.
Again, we're looking at projects, working on a project already, that would add that sort of capacity. Carbon capture in general—I think there's a broad range of technologies that are available for flue gas carbon capture. And again, in cases where today there's some sort of incentive—a tax incentive or some other governmental incentive—the technologies exist that can do this cost-effectively and operate in many cases within existing incentive schemes to allow carbon capture, especially from concentrated emission sources, and allow that carbon to be captured and ultimately sequestered today. So Beth will have a lot more information than I'm sharing now, but it's pretty exciting because it's not something that's relying on just bold new emerging technologies. The capability to do this exists today, and we're seeing the will and the incentives to do it firming up pretty quickly. And I think we're going to see a lot of activity in this space.
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Stefan Chapman35:31
Thanks for that. That's a good teaser, so I look forward to hearing the presentation at the event. And we've been hearing a lot about blue hydrogen and its potential uses—and game-changing potentially for the fuels in the future. So that'll be really interesting to hear.
It brings us to the last question. Peering into the crystal ball, as we say, which is not always easy to do in a time that we have that is characterized by the uncertainty that we've seen and the change. In your opinion, what do you think the 2030 refiner or petchem producer will look like, and what are the potential big-ticket items that we could see our industry invest in in the coming decade? Not an easy question.
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Bryan Glover36:36
Yeah, well, an easy question, maybe not an easy answer. So here's my chance to make a grand leap and probably miss. I think if there's anything we've learned especially over the last year, predicting the future is maybe more uncertain than we think. But if we look out to 2030, I think there's a few key features that we're going to see in refineries.
I think we're going to see clearly more consolidation. So as we look forward, we're going to see fewer refineries, but probably on average with an expanded capacity and on average with a higher complexity. We will definitely see some shift on average towards higher petrochemical production. Now obviously the amount of petrochemical consumption in the world today compared to the amount of fuels consumption means that everyone can't be operating a refinery that's 50% petrochemicals and 50% fuels in the next nine years, but I think we're going to see some level of petrochemical shift in most refineries. We'll see some move a lot. I think the opportunity to move towards petrochemicals is greater than it ever was today. In fact, we see new refineries today—we find that we're capable of designing, with good economic returns, refineries today that could produce upwards of 80 to 85% petrochemical product on crude, which is well beyond where the industry was even three, four, five years ago. So the opportunity is there to produce mostly olefins and aromatics from crude.
But the transformation in a typical refinery is probably a little bit more than a typical owner is going to go, but I think we'll see refineries that are shifted towards petrochemical production. I believe we'll see refiners that have carbon capture as a minimum around hydrogen production. I think we'll see a significant amount of blue hydrogen come in, and I also think that we'll see carbon capture on some of the key emission sources within refineries. It may not be fully distributed, but when you look across the refinery or chemical plant, clearly you see opportunities where you can go after one or two or three large point sources and have a significant impact. I believe we'll see integration of a handful of bridging technologies that help support that integration of petrochemicals into refineries. We'll see processes that do more molecular sorting, especially once we get into the naphtha range and we're making decisions on whether we're going to produce olefins from a feedstock or maybe where they're going to produce aromatics and aromatic derivatives. We'll see a better ability to sort between those.
And I think between now and then, we're going to see more investment in just straight-up energy efficiency than we've seen in a long time. Process improvements, technology upgrades, new catalyst systems that allow much more focused and much more energy-efficient operations. So I think that's where I see the industry going. We'll see lower overall capacity clearly for fuels production. I don't think I'm going out on a big limb there on any of those projections, and I think those are likely to come to pass. So I think in general that's the theme.
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Stefan Chapman40:17
Well, certainly bodes for a very interesting decade. I'm convinced with our industry, with the resilience like you said, the innovation, the improvements that we're going to see in energy efficiency—I think we'll rise up to the challenges that we are faced with and meet those challenges like the industry has always done, like you mentioned, over the years.
So I'd like to say thank you very much for your time today, Bryan. It was really appreciated. It was a real pleasure for me to be able to exchange with you on some of those important industry topics. I really look forward to being able to expand further the discussion at ESF, which will be this coming May, end of May, early June. And hopefully we'll have the chance to meet up in the not-so-distant future at in-person events, because I think everyone misses those. And in the meantime, please stay safe and stay well, and thank you once again.
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Bryan Glover41:23
Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure to be here today, and happy to talk. And as you say as well, I'm looking forward to the event, and looking forward to being able to re-engage with everyone face-to-face as we move beyond the COVID situation that we have today. So thank you.
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Stefan Chapman41:43
Thank you very much, Bryan.