In the Engine Room of the Transition - Ep99: Dev Sanyal

Thank you, Michael.

I'm sitting right now in Zug in Switzerland. It's actually quite an overcast day, so there's maybe a bit of rain, which is probably a good thing given it's been a dry, hot summer.

Absolutely.

Some years ago.

So at that point I was actually the group treasurer of BP and running BP's finances at the time. And subsequently I moved on to the executive committee of BP where I served for 12 years and ran the natural gas business worldwide as well as the low carbon energy business of BP.

So as you said, Michael, I joined VARO on the first January of this year and I'm actually based full-time in Switzerland. But of course the company has diverse operations in different parts of the world. We are essentially an integrated energy company and what we try and do is help our customers both meet their needs for energy in terms of energy security, but we're also helping our customers decarbonize, so we're also helping their own transition. The heart of our company is in Europe but we've got operations elsewhere as well.

So the business essentially has got two engines as I call it. Engine one is a conventional energy business which is essentially midstream to downstream, all the way to the customer and consumer. And that business is all about how do we optimize it, how do we make it more efficient, how do we reliably supply our customers. At the same time, how do we increasingly decarbonize that business. And we've done a lot of work in that respect—300,000 tons of reductions just this year as an example. We're operating at around 98% reliability across 50 assets.

And Engine Two is a business that is growing. We actually have a pretty significant business in what we call sustainable energies. But we've identified five strategic pillars to grow the business: advanced biofuels, advanced biomethane, bio-LNG, green hydrogen, nature-based carbon solutions, as well as e-mobility. So that's what we do. And of course at the heart of what we do is serving our customers, helping them to transition. And so we've got what we call these customer lighthouses, working with four specific sectors—process heat, aviation, wholesalers, as well as food retailers—to help them decarbonize and meet their own emission targets.

And of course you can help your customers go, to help yourself. So we also announced in July of this year this new strategy which I've just articulated. And we've also announced a plan to be net zero by 2040 for Scope 1, Scope 2, and Scope 3.

So what we don't do—I'll start there, it's always a good place to make it very clear what you don't do. We don't produce oil and gas, you know, what's called the upstream. So what we do is we basically process oil as well as bio in our own refining system. The business in Engine One, what is a conventional energy business, is actually around the slate of fossil-based fuels as well as we've also got a very, very significant position in bio blending. So we are actually one of the largest bio traders in Europe. So that is our business in Engine One.

And basically those are the two key, or what we call, manufacturing hubs. In Bayernöl you've got sort of two components, one in Burghausen, and then we've got assets—around 50 of them—where we basically store and distribute and optimize the value chain, by which I mean make sure that we can efficiently and safely supply our customers.

We're predominantly a liquids business today, both in terms of what you'd call conventional energies—gasoline, diesel, and the like—as well as the bio business, which is of course a liquid-based renewable fuel. So that's where we are predominantly focused on. We do have a business in LPG, etc., but that's relatively small in the context of what has been historically a predominantly liquid-based business.

Correct, absolutely. Either storing it, manufacturing it, trading it, and distributing it.

Well, our business in what we call Engine Two, or sustainable energies, is relatively small in terms of manufacturing, in terms of effectively the overall share of the pie. So what we intend to do is invest in five strategic pillars which are laid out: advanced biofuels, advanced biomethane, bio-LNG, nature-based carbon solutions, green hydrogen, as well as e-mobility. And in the next five years, 50% of our earnings will come from those businesses. To do so, we will basically deploy two-thirds of our capital in these new businesses.

And I think what's interesting about this strategy—at least I think it is—is that it's not one of those strategies that in the year 2070 it's going to be fantastic, but by which time I don't think I'll be around, maybe you'll be around. This has got a very clear tramline in terms of the next five years, where we are essentially going to take two-thirds of our capital, invest in these businesses, and create 50% of our earnings in that period. And that's obviously challenging, but it's something that I feel very confident about—not because of just feeling confident about this energy transition, but because you've actually got businesses in those five strategic pillars. What we need to do now is scale them up. So we have, if you will, the foundations. Now the question is getting the north star firmly inside and prosecuting it in a way which is safe and reliable.

Michael, the one-third is what we call sustaining capital expenditure. You do need to invest to keep your assets running safely and reliably. So the intent here is to basically optimize the existing infrastructure and just because of the scale of it, you do need to have capital which you deploy to keep it running at a high level of efficiency and reliability.

Listen, I think at the end of the day we have to provide both energy security—as well as, by which energy security I mean reliable, affordable energy—at the same time we also have to make a transition. I think what this current tragedy in Ukraine has demonstrated is the complete asymmetry between production and consumer demand. The truth is four countries control 50% of oil resources and 50% of gas resources. In any other industry that would be kind of anathema. I mean it would not be acceptable, and yet we are here. So the question is how do you transition away from that narrative.

I wish it was as straightforward as telephony. You know, when I left India as a young man to go to university in America, there were 10 million phone lines in India. And today, here we are many years later—I won't tell you the years—it's still 10 million phone lines in India, but there are 890 million mobile phones. That is not the energy system, where you can basically jump the old and just invest in the new.

So we've got to make this transition, which means in the current business you can't just say I'm going to just produce more energy. Yes, you do need to provide more energy because the world needs more energy and the transition will take some time, but you also have to look at ways and means to decarbonize it. I'll give an example: 70% of the hydrogen in Switzerland is consumed by us, by VARO. Now if you convert that from grey to green, that is a good example of what you can do within your existing system.

We are building the largest ground-mounted solar facility in Cressier which we'll commission next year. 70%—at peak between 60 to 70% at peak—of the refinery power requirements will come from solar. That's another good example of what we can practically do in terms of existing assets.

So what I tell people is that it cannot be just one dimension. We have to meet the needs of more demand—30% more demand in the next couple of decades. We have to make it more affordable, which is obviously a big subject today. And at the same time we have to make this transition. And that's the task ahead of us. And just to say we will provide security without any of the above doesn't work. You've got to work on all three dimensions.

And that's why I actually believe repurposing the existing infrastructure is as important as building new infrastructure. Because the truth is that the existing infrastructure is not a stranded asset. A manufacturing hub—we don't call them refineries, by the way, at VARO, we call them manufacturing hubs. And our strategy is founded on this fundamental belief that we will basically convert all our manufacturing hubs to clean energy centers—for example, bioenergy, green hydrogen, etc. So I think that's the way I sort of hold it, which is don't freeze time but don't just look at one dimension. Try and bring things together and make progress. And this is why I think our ESG strategy and what we've laid out in terms of net zero by 2040 is very important. It isn't a hockey stick where in 2039 magically it's going to be wonderful. So it's kind of how do you measure it all the way through so that we can make tangible progress with all these dimensions.

I don't know if I'm the one to give advice, but I certainly have views, which as you know, Michael, I'll express very freely to you.

So here's what I would say. The current crisis is born of a number of things. Number one, I would say, is a fundamental asymmetry which I spoke about before. I mean it is astonishing—when I started my career 32 years ago, the total market share of Russian oil in Germany was 40% and Russian gas was 45%. And here we are, many semesters later, and it's identical.

So the reality of course is that this asymmetry has been brought into sharp focus. And so we have got to diversify. And you can't do this overnight, but if you sort of just try and keep the old gig and put a bit of band-aid and hope it's going to work, it doesn't, because at some point in the future some other nation state may decide, well guess what, we won't provide as reliably as we have in the past the products that you've got to use to create everyday prosperity.

So that's the first bit I would emphasize: how do you diversify? Which means you've got to look at what you do today as reliably as possible. I'm very proud of our track record as a company. From the start of the crisis, the 24th of February, we took a decision: we would not buy Russian crude, we would not actually deal with Russian counterparties. It's a decision that I think was taken with imperfect information, but it was the right thing to do, and we took it on the first day.

I have to tell you, I didn't quite expect the reaction from our customers and frankly our staff, who absolutely thought it was the right thing to do. But what we have been able to do is operate our assets reliably. There's more work to be done, I don't feel complacent. So you've got to make sure you operate assets safely and reliably. We've got to make sure we open up trading windows, trading opportunities to kind of optimize the flow of molecules and electrons, by the way.

And number three, we've got to make sure that we are keeping in concert with our customers' requirements and demands so that we can be a reliable supply. Which is why since the 24th of February we have been uninterrupted in our supplies. And by the way, just as an example: one out of ten liters in Germany is supplied by VARO, three out of ten liters in Benelux is supplied by VARO, around the same in Switzerland, etc. So very, very important we do that—make sure that we operate what we have well. But don't stop there. You've got to continue the narrative around diversification, which is very important.

Now the second area that I think has been brought to sharp relief is the demand for the new has not actually been as baked in as the degradation of supply of the old. So this is also a story of underinvestment over the course of the last—let's call it 2015 onwards, when we had that price drop in oil prices. And the truth is that if you have a stop-and-start cyclicality of investments, there will be impacts—not immediately, and so you think it's all okay. Not tomorrow, but it's all okay. But then down the road those impacts become more and more apparent.

So I think making a consistent set of decisions and having an environment that enables consistent decisions is very important, because the system is so large that you don't feel the immediate impact, but over time you do. And we are actually in that point where—I mean Michael, I want to forecast this—we are sitting here with inflation which is reaching double digits. For this entire generation who joined our industries for 15 years, they don't know what a high interest rate looks like. We do, because we're a bit older, if I may be so bold as to suggest that.

The second is we've had massive supply chain disruptions because the entire mantra of just-in-time, which we celebrated, has kind of been challenged, no doubt about it, and the globalization narrative of the last three decades has been challenged. Number three, we've had obviously this terrible tragedy of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And number four, we've also had behind us a massive pandemic which has created dislocations in the labor market—and I just don't mean dislocations in the sense of the way economists talk about it, even mindsets and people—the great resignation, things like that. So all these things have come together at the same time. And that's why what we need to address is: how do we get to fundamentally diversification and an investment cycle that is enabled consistently to create a more stable situational equilibrium, if you will.

I think we can't go overnight from one narrative to another. It's not like, as I said earlier, telephony, where you can go from fixed lines to mobile phones. I think this transition requires a complete re-plumbing. I think the IEA's got it probably right—you know, is it two trillion dollars every year for the next decade and five trillion dollars every year beyond that? You could debate the numbers, but this is a significant sum of money required. And if it happens too quickly, there is no financial capacity to do that, number one. But I also don't think the money will be spent as wisely. So you know, two trillion is a hell of a lot compared to, if you will, an oil and gas investment cycle over the last decade of anything between 300 to 500 billion dollars. So it's a huge stimulus, if you will.

Now there are things that are happening that will stimulate it further, like the Inflation Reduction Act, which I think is actually going to be good in terms of diversification. But I think my own response would be: I wish it would be done as soon as possible. I fundamentally believe in the energy transition. I think it's important. I believe there's a massive business opportunity. I think it's the right thing to do, and society needs it and demands it and wants it. But the question of course is how do we do it in a responsible fashion so that we don't have a situation where people are left behind. Which is why I'm so passionate about—as you can sense, and you know this Michael, you and I know each other well—about repurposing existing infrastructure.

I want to not just repurpose infrastructure, I want to retrain, because the same skills will be required. Go to a biorefinery—it's the same skill, the only difference is hydrocarbons don't flow through it. So we've got to look at this from multi-dimensions, which is: how do we provide the energy the world needs in the way that it wants? How do we help people in their own transition from one set of skills to another set of skills? And how do we actually do this in a cost-effective way—use existing assets rather than waste money by creating a whole bunch of new assets which require steel and land and everything else. Do it in a lot more of an efficient fashion. It doesn't mean we can repurpose everything. It doesn't mean that repurposing is the only panacea. But I think there's been a fascination in the last decade—I don't know if you agree with me—but I think there's been a fascination with building the new, because it's kind of cool to go and do a ribbon-cutting ceremony for a brand new shiny asset.

I think the next decade is my own bet, and that's a bet we're making as a company, is that it'll be both repurposing the existing while also building the new. Now I think one thing we do need to do is make sure you've got the right signals for that investment climate. So sort of sudden changes in the investment legislation don't help, because it detracts from investor confidence. Things like the Inflation Reduction Act, which actually incentivize greater production, is fantastic.

I personally believe it's also easy sometimes to incentivize consumption—that's probably the wrong thing. In fact, if you look at the latest poll I looked at in the UK—and there are so many polls these days—but 70% said they'd be up for actually reducing their own energy consumption over the course of this winter. Now, worryingly, 23% said they would have no access to heating in the winter, which is not good. You look at Japan this summer, since Fukushima, and you will see that the temperatures in offices are 24 degrees for a reason—because conservation.

Well, I think what is very important is to basically be clear about what do you do with that money. And if you're going to reinvest it, as we are doing, in creating new forms of energy, creating more energy, full stop—that actually will help abate the current challenge we are facing.

Because whatever you take out of the—

Yeah, listen, it's a very difficult situation. The cost of living crisis, and it is a crisis, is real, because we are still experiencing all those factors we talked about—you call it the four-horseman apocalypse. I think the question therefore is how do you kind of deal with not only the present but also how to get out of the present. And that means there needs to be investments. The only way out of this is producing more energy and actually creating more diversification. And creating the signals that basically stop it would be, I think, probably not the right thing to do from my vantage point, because I actually believe if we can create the conditions for certainty and conditions where that money gets invested in the future, then we will undoubtedly get more energy and we'll have more diversified energy. It's going to be good for the consumer and good for the absolute level of price. Now, what do you do with the present? The governments will have many options ahead of them. I quite like this idea of making sure that the assistance is very directed, because quite frankly, you and I don't need that assistance. So how do we make sure it's very directed? Those are things politicians will look at, absolutely. But the worst thing we could do is just get focused on today, because we'll never get out of this trough, and we need to get out of this trough, and that takes time. I wish, Michael, trust me, I wish we could do this sooner. We've been very aggressive—five years to build up these new businesses—but we actually have conviction we can do that. And that conviction is based on a number of things. We believe that customers want it, and customers absolutely want it in our neighborhood. Number two, governments have to help incentivize it. Just look at what's happened to the UK with offshore wind. It was not developed by just great engineering; it was also developed by incentives that created the scale, which now has resulted in a virtuous cycle. Solar is the same example in America. And then I think you do need at the same time a consistent level of investment, so not a stop-and-start. And stop-and-start—we've seen this. In the UK with CCS, stop-and-start. What did that do? Actually nothing came good out of it other than some good engineering designs. So we've got to create that sort of stable environment for that investment to be sown so that we can reap the benefits of the future.

Now, one thing that I want to be very clear about: I am not saying there will be no hydrocarbons in the energy mix. There will be, but we probably will not be participating in that in any significant way, because we actually want to build and scale our engine two businesses in renewable and sustainable energies and repurpose our existing business in conventional energies.

I can only speak about my own company. Our plans are not to sell. I mean, of course, if there's some underperforming asset, a retail asset here and there, we may say, okay, we don't need that because the game of retail has changed. But fundamentally, our business strategy, which we laid out on the 4th of July, is all about keeping our existing assets—50 assets—and actually repurposing them for the future. And I personally do agree with you. The idea that if you sell it, it may be good for the company, but it's not good for the world if indeed our target is to move towards decarbonization. But that's not for me to comment on. Our strategy, and we've got conviction on this based on our assets and the nature of the markets we operate in, where we believe we can actually convert our facilities and therefore generally reduce the carbon to net zero by 2040.

Well, I mean, fundamentally, we think our assets—our manufacturing hubs—are actually going to be vital to creating value. So if we actually believed that those assets would be better served as hydrocarbon assets beyond 2040, then we probably would have had a different strategy. So we actually believe there is a massive opportunity. We are in the process of, in Bioggio for example, putting in a green electrolyzer, putting in electrolysis of green hydrogen—125 megawatts going up to 800. We are in the process of putting in a pre-treatment unit for bioenergy in our asset in Cressier. We believe we can build scale in these businesses. And to build scale—because scale is very important for us, scale is incredibly important—and you know this, Michael, I've spent a lot of time in this area in my career—I actually believe this is not some nice niche product which serves a few select niche customers. We've got to build scale to reduce costs and to make it more and more affordable. That's the winning ticket. And therefore we believe that we can build these businesses by both repurposing while also building the new. The other thing I want to point out—just two other points if I may. I also believe, when you think about the history of our industry over 100 years—and you know this extremely well, but just for your viewers and for the listeners—there was a sort of very John Rockefeller-like integrated model approach. So refineries tended to be near the production source and near industrial clusters. That's the way it was. And so what we absolutely believe, as we build these businesses in existing infrastructure, we have the benefit of the ecosystem which we can leverage. I mean, think of it: if I'm taking 70 percent of my hydrogen demand in Switzerland, conveying that green—well, guess what, I've got the scale now to supply power, to supply industry, etc. And I think that's a very important point. The second point I'd also make is: I think the current turmoils in the labor market that you've seen, and frankly the political discourse, are born out of a three-decade trend where some parts of society got left behind with globalization. And I think there has to be an opportunity here to reskill people and to give them new opportunities. When you go back in time in the UK, the coal mines got shut, but what happened to the coal miners? So we've got to think about ways to create the social equation. But it's also, frankly, a great business opportunity, because I need the engineers, I need people who understand high-tech manufacturing, I need people who understand high-risk industries, and they have those skills. And those men and women will be incredibly important as we start building out these businesses in the future on these platforms.

We're actually building a business for our customers, not for ourselves. And now let me explain that a bit more. So we actually think that offsets which are certified, which are genuine—nature-based carbon solutions, we call them—are part of the mix. I don't think they're going to be, and they cannot be, 100 percent of the mix. That would be illogical and frankly would not actually pass any kind of test in the water cooler, so to speak. But let's call it around 10 percent of the mix, perhaps as a part of the transition. So what we are doing is we are building this business to basically provide a service to our customers. So we think by 2030, one gigaton of CO2 will be saved through this mechanism. Our ambition is around 15 million tons in our strategy in the next few years, by 2026. And effectively what we are seeking to do is provide this in a suite of things that we provide to our customers. We have this concept called customer lighthouses, and the idea is not the old idea, which is let's just sell more to the customer. The question is: how do we help them meet their own transition needs? And 97 percent of the customers we serve in my markets have got some form of net-zero commitments. Now, the question is—and we believe, because of our nimbleness, because of our entrepreneurship, because of the way we do things—we can try and blend together their bio requirements, the hydrogen requirements, their employee requirements, as well as some offset, to help them in this pathway. So we see it in that context. It's not really a business we're building for ourselves; it's a business we're building to provide the customers with a suite of options as they think about decarbonization.

I'll do very quickly. Listen, e-mobility—when I sort of joined VARO, before you join, you don't really meet anybody other than your board as a CEO. So once I was announced, I got the opportunity just to go on listening tours, if I may call it that. And the team spoke to me about this fintech company in mobility. And I'm thinking, why do we have a fintech company in mobility? Well, actually, what we do is, through a company called E-Flux, we actually have the software that enables long-distance hauliers to have an ease of payments for their energy needs. But it also then gives us a unique window to understand their requirements for bio. It gives us a unique window in understanding their requirements as they electrify for power. And basically, it allows us to try and bring together options that they can use as solutions for their own needs—be it for their costs, for their carbon, as well as for their optimization of their fleet. So that's what we're doing. What we're not doing is building a business where we've got 10,000 retail outlets that we're going to put EV chargers in. It's a good business for someone else. So one of the things we've been very clear about—I don't often go to the former Prime Minister of the UK, Theresa May, but I think she had a very good line about global citizens. She said they're citizens of everywhere but citizens of nowhere. So what we don't want to be is a company that does everything. Our strategy is actually a strategy which is designed to make choices, and we've made these choices on these five strategic pillars. So I was involved, as you know, Michael, from our own history, in being part of a team that helped build—in fact, the world's largest developer. I was involved in offshore wind. These are great businesses—Lightsource BP. But the truth is, as VARO, we have the expression which we use in our company, the 'right to win.' We don't have a right to win in building utility-scale solar. But we do have a right to win in these five areas, based on what happens. So it's a very, very focused strategy.

So I think one of the things that I did in the very beginning—and I need to emphasize this again and again—is we are investing in advanced biofuels. In other words, we believe that the opportunity ahead of us—and I'm going to use a bit of technical jargon: 2G, second-generation biofuels—is all about actually taking waste and agricultural residue, not impacting the food cycle. So it's not about crops, it's not about intermediates; it's actually about taking waste and converting that into useful heat, light, and mobility. So the bio market in biofuels in Europe, we think, is a 70-billion-dollar market in the next few years. We want to build that business. So we are also very active in building our business in sustainable aviation fuels. It's one of those hard-to-decarbonize sectors. We're working—and you'll see some announcements—working with some of our customers on that. And the scale we're looking at here, 250,000 tons for our plant, will actually result in, I think, the equivalent of 4,000 flights between Heathrow and JFK to be absolutely clean. Similarly, what we're doing in biomethane and bio-LNG is looking to build businesses which are also using effectively non-crop feedstock. So we've got—which is now in the public domain—an agreement on crude fatty acids from Finland, which we have now done a deal with a fantastic company called Taliari and Fintoil. We're building the feedstock which we can then deploy into biomethane, bio-LNG. Again, very important. We think the potential of what we've laid out in terms of the business has the potential of essentially resulting in around 400,000 clean homes in the next five years. And again, that becomes a bit more vivid in people understanding what we are trying to do. So we want to help build those businesses. We think we've got the skill set around not only those businesses but also around how we optimize—feedstock trading, manufacturing, reliable manufacturing—and also, of course, building out the appropriate distribution channels. So it's one terawatt-hour is what we're talking about, which is 110 million cubes, is what we're building out in the biogas business. And again, very importantly, looking at existing infrastructure. I mean, don't forget, some of these businesses—and what I like about them—is this is a transition. But the truth is that the bio business is never going to move the dial 100 percent. But if you move the dial 10 percent and you can use existing engines, for example, in transportation, but you're clean and you're not actually impacting the food cycle or the crop cycle, then you're creating a business well worth investing in.

I think the business of hydrogen will be very important in terms of our own usage in the next five years. Five years beyond that, this is replacing—just to be clear what that means for our listeners—this is replacing gray, dirty, polluting, emitting hydrogen in your, particularly in Cressier, or in both, in Bioggio—and replacing that with some form of clean hydrogen. Green hydrogen. This is basically hydrogen—again, I mean, the theme here is nature-based. If you think about strategy, there's a big theme around nature: bio, green hydrogen, nature-based carbon solutions. So basically, the hydrogen business for us is going to be a good business in terms of our own usage. That will give us the scale that'll allow us to then go to industry, to power, and even mobility, depending on how that evolves. And I know you've got some various views on that, but let's see. But I think the first homework question goes back to my own mindset, my team's mindset. We will see what happens in 2047, 2050, but what can we do now? Well, we can do a lot with our existing infrastructure, and then that gives us options for the future. The bio business is different. It's actually the business which is the here and now, today. And I think we can invest in that and actually create scale in that business to serve our customers, because demand is very much out there. The question is going to be: how do you build it at scale in the right geographies, leveraging the incentives to do so? And I think that becomes a financial proposition. Listen, you talk about finance—when you look at the offshore wind business, by having a CFD, what the UK government gave was price certainty to the producer. It also created a financing stream. And that's the idea that we need to get after.

Well, what we have said is that as we build out these businesses, we will maintain across the group 15 percent returns. So we have actually said we're not going to—and this is return on capital, this is not return on sales, return on capital and capital employed. So what we're basically saying is that having a new brand-new business where you tank margins and you tank returns, that's not going to be a winning proposition. So we believe there is opportunity for us to do so in these five areas where we've got, as I said, a track record and some skill set that we can deploy. And so 15 percent is what we are committed to delivering across the portfolio. So the very idea that we're going to build quantity by degrading quality is kind of not in line with our strategy. Now, are the returns characteristics of this business different from existing hydrocarbons? You bet. Look at the cyclicality we've had right now. Look at the VIX, the volatility index, of hydrocarbons versus other forms of energy—it is a lot higher. And the reason it's a lot higher is because it is highly concentrated in the hands of producers. We've got to change that. If you're, especially sitting in our neighborhood where we are sitting today in Europe—where Europe is going to always be in need of energy—and the question is: can it produce more domestic energy and can it diversify more resources? If it can, I think we would see this episode as—and I really hope this is the case—as the point of departure from the past. And that's what we're all trying to do, using this current narrative, which is born out of incredible sadness and tragedy. But how do we then create strength as we move forward? And that is, I think, what's ahead of us. And I think this is one of those watershed moments for the world of energy. And I hope the choices we make today, as individuals, as companies, as governments, as society, can actually result in a future that is a lot more diverse, a lot more inclusive of different forms of energies, and frankly, providing what the world actually needs, which is clean, affordable, and secure energy.

Well, Michael, thank you. And thank you actually for what you've done for our industry, because I think you've been pushing over many decades, and I think the things you've been pushing on are finally coming together in a very, very good way. And I hope in a very good way—I think it is actually a very good way. So thanks for leading in the thinking. You're a pioneer, and here we are following your footsteps, and hopefully we can do something with it.

Thank you, Michael.