Talking Business #5 Interview with Richard Kirkman from Veolia

Welcome to Talking Business, a podcast produced in Melbourne, Australia. The podcast is available on the Acast site, my own website, the Apple Podcast Store, or wherever you go to get your podcast. You can also get it at the Business Acumen website at www.businessacumen.biz. For the most exclusive access to leading economists and business leaders from around the world, subscribe to Talking Business from our website, leonlellner.com. I am Leon Lellner. My job is to review and monitor the week's news in business, finance, and economics. I bring it all to you every week. This is episode number five in series four for 2024, and today's date is Friday, March the 1st. First, I'll be talking to Richard Kirkman, the CEO of Veolia. Research undertaken by Veolia, the nation's leader in ecological transformation, found that climate distress and eco-anxiety had become the norm in Australia, with the majority of Australians placing emphasis on the role that businesses must play in addressing these issues. And I'll be talking to AMP Capital Chief Economist Shane Oliver, who summarizes the profit reporting season which ended this week. But first, let's talk to Richard Kirkman. Richard, tell us about this latest survey that Veolia has done about Australia.

And as I understand, 84% of your survey found Australians were rather concerned or anxious about climate trouble.

But your survey also found—I mean, in light of that, I mean there's lots of people who have been through floods and bushfires—and you've also found that two-thirds of people, or some like 68%, said they felt exposed to harsh living conditions.

But the issue too—that we have a massive resources industry, and that's quite an issue in terms of climate change and the campaigns around climate change.

Do we actually have the industry and skill sets to do that?

This would be particularly true with coal-fired power plants, would it?

It's also a question of the business actually having the people there to actually develop that and getting there.

Well, Richard, that's all been quite fascinating, and thank you very much for your time.

And now let's talk to AMP Capital Chief Economist Shane Oliver. Well, Shane, what's your take on the profit reporting season?

Look, to be honest with you, Leon, it's been okay. I wouldn't say it's fantastic, but expectations coming into this profit reporting season were quite subdued. The expectation of analysts was for something like a five to six percent fall in profits for this financial year, and generally speaking we've seen somewhat more than normal companies surprised on the upside. On the latest numbers, we're almost 70% of the way through the profit reporting season—this week of course is the busiest week—but on the latest numbers we've got something like 43% of companies have surprised on the upside, and 39% on the downside. So that doesn't sound overly fantastic, but it's slightly more than normal surprising on the upside and slightly less than normal surprising on the downside. And likewise, when you look at the number of companies reporting profits up on a year ago, we've got 55% of companies reporting higher profits on a year ago, which is an improvement from what we saw back in the last reporting season in August last year, when it was slightly less than 50%. So overall, you've got more companies than not seeing profits actually rise on a year ago, and slightly more companies surprising on the upside than on the downside. But overall, compared to past, it's not an overly flash reporting season—there's been much stronger periods than this. But so far so good, it's not anywhere near as bad as feared. I suspect that analyst earnings expectations will still remain for a fall of around five to six percent for this financial year, but the good news is that it's certainly not coming in any worse than that—maybe fractionally better. It does say something about the resilience of companies. When a lot of them reported, their share price actually increased.

That's right, and that may have surprised many who watch the market.

As always, I should point out in reporting seasons you have a bias towards better results coming early. Some companies have fixed dates—they always go on the second Wednesday of the reporting season—whereas some will move their dates around a little bit. And it has been a tendency over the years for better results to come up front, and then as we go on they're not quite as good. But one area where there has been a little bit of a surprise was particularly retail—on stocks like JB Hi-Fi, Exceed, and so on. They're sort of struggling; they've had tough times but maybe not as bad as feared. And some of the outlook guidance from the retailers wasn't too bad either. And consequently the market, investors are thinking, well, okay, not so good but not as bad as it could have been. And somewhere out there we're going to get lower interest rates, which will help Australian consumers, and so that's why the market reaction has been sort of okay. The other aspect in relation to those individual stocks—the other aspect of course is that we came into this profit reporting season at the start of February with a record high on the ASX 200 in the Australian share market. And after such a huge run-up, particularly since October last year, we're always going to go through a bit of a consolidation. So when you look at the overall market, I think it's sort of chugged sideways over the last few weeks of the reporting season. But I think that's probably to be expected given the extent of the gains that we had seen coming out of the lows in October last year.

It's interesting—I mean you're saying people are thinking, or investors are thinking, oh, you know, well there's interest rate cuts ahead, so they're thinking long term. But they'd also be thinking about the tax cuts coming in too.

That's right. It's a combination of the two. Now, there were going to be tax cuts anyway, but those tax cuts have now been skewed more to lower and particularly middle-income earners, who are more likely to spend them. Whereas the previous stage three tax cuts were favoring more the higher-income earners—they still get big tax cuts, but not as big as they otherwise would have been. But of course, you've got now something like 90% of taxpayers getting some sort of tax cut. So that change in the skew of the stage three tax cuts to again favor more going to low and middle-income earners—much like stages one and two did—could potentially boost spending, because it's low and middle-income earners, they're the people who are likely to be stretched in their mortgages, particularly facing the cost of living pressures and so on. So giving them some money means that more of the tax cuts are likely to be spent. So that's also a boost. So you've got this combination, I think, of things coming together, which the market is starting to view more favorably. Obviously, interest rate cuts sometime—we think starting in the middle of the year, other economists say starting later in the year—but that will provide some relief. The tax cuts, and you can also argue—and we saw in the figures this week—wages growth is now starting to edge above, ever so slightly above, the rate of inflation: 4.2% for the year to December for wages, 4.1% for inflation. Which doesn't mean that the huge rise in prices has now been recovered—it certainly hasn't—but at least things are starting to go in a better direction again. So those three things—potential for lower interest rates, tax cuts, and the return of real wages growth—I think are all seen as a bit of a positive for the household sector and Australian consumers, even though we're still going to go through a bit of a patch for the next few months at least.

So overall you'd say this profit reporting season, well, it hasn't been brilliant, but it's been better than expected?

Yeah, overall it's a little bit better than expected. I should point out that the final numbers—and I think also the market's expectations coming into this reporting season—were always going to be a little bit skewed. A lot of the weakness that is coming through, the fall in profits, that five to six percent fall—the bulk of that was to be driven by the energy stocks. Whereas if you look at on the other hand, if you exclude energy and financials, the rest of the market is seeing flat to up profits, which is interesting. I think consumer staples are negative, consumer discretionary is actually slightly positive. So the weakness we are seeing is very much concentrated particularly in the energy sector, after the massive rise in energy prices for coal, gas, and oil that we saw coming on the back of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, which boosted profits in the last financial year. So that's just worth bearing in mind as well. I think the other aspect is that a lot of bad news had already been factored in for retailers, so that's why they're perhaps getting some support through all of this. A couple of other things worth noting: I think cost control has generally been good, that's been helping companies, and that's helped maintain margins. Even the banking sector, which is seeing some pressure on margins—some mean mixed results there—I think some of the banks were able to maintain their margins by good cost control.

Yeah, I mean, all—I mean I was very struck by how mixed this season has been. I mean there's been some fantastic results and others not so good.

Yeah, I guess that's to be expected. You know, we have come into a period where, well, energy sector dragging the profits down as a whole. If you take that out, you're probably looking at flat, slightly up profit. So within that you're going to see some spectacularly positive results and some spectacularly negative results. And I guess that's no surprise. We're not in an environment where everything is going positively to the corporate sector—and that sort of environment would be one where most companies get lifted even if they make mistakes. Whereas we are in an environment where a lot depends on what sector you're in and also how you're managing, and areas like cost control become a lot more important. And we've seen banks that have managed to keep control of their costs do better than those that haven't.

So how would the RBA be looking at this?

Well, they'll be looking at everything which gives them some guidance to how the economy is going. I think in a big picture sense it's probably neutral for the RBA. Things aren't strong enough I think to sort of bring on another rate hike, but by the same token, on their own they're not weak enough to enhance or bring forward prospects for rate cuts. Like the wages figures yesterday—they weren't strong enough, or the wages figures that we got out for December quarter—they weren't strong enough to bring on more rate hikes, but they're not weak enough to bring forward rate cuts. So that's the way I would see it—it's sort of somewhere in the neutral zone. So I don't think the RBA would be reading too much into it—it's not that the results were extreme enough to do that. And of course the RBA would also know that the bulk of the reason we're going to see a fall in profits this year is because of this slump in the energy sector.

Of course, the RBA's focus will be totally on the next inflation figures.

That's right. Inflation is the big one. We have some good news on inflation—it has fallen. Take the monthly numbers because they're more timely, even though they're more volatile. They fell from an 8.4% peak in December 2022 and in the most recent numbers they've fallen to around 3.3 to 3.4%. So that's very positive news. And with that, the quarterly number that the RBA focuses on more has also come down, albeit it will lag the monthly. So they're going to be focusing on that. We get another reading of that in the week ahead, and it's likely to show that inflation remains in the threes. I don't think we'll see another leg down yet, because negative inflation numbers dropped out in January last year. So the monthly rise in January last year was something like minus 0.3. Unless we see minus 0.4 or even less, then the monthly number will stay around or maybe rise a little bit from where it was reported to be in December. But I think the broader picture is down for inflation. What the RBA wants to see is—because they know this is happening—they want to see more confidence that it's going to keep going down and stay down around the 2.5% level. Ultimately, we think they will get enough evidence of that by the middle of the year to start cutting, but very high risk that it may take a little bit longer than that. The central bank was surprised on the upside by the rise in inflation—that caused them a lot of pain. The last thing they want to do is sort of jump in there with rate cuts only to then reverse them again, because then that will just add to the pain again. So they want to be fairly comfortable that when they do ease, it can be sustained. And at this stage they're thinking, well, it's still a bit too early. But central banks are gradually moving in that direction. We've also seen from the US Federal Reserve minutes from their last meeting similar sentiment from them. Of course, the Fed is a little bit more advanced because US inflation is running a little bit lower than it is in Australia. So that means the Fed is now considering when to start cutting interest rates, whereas in Australia the debate is still around whether to hike again or to leave rates on hold. I think they will stay on hold and ultimately they will cut, but obviously we've got a way to go yet before we get to that point.

Last minute RBA meeting indicated they were still thinking of maybe hiking rates.

That's certainly right. That was what was on the table—they thought about hiking again and leaving rates on hold. They didn't think about cutting. And their guidance implied that they still can't rule out a further hike. So it's still not balanced in the sense that they're considering three scenarios—cutting, holding, or hiking—then they're not. They're still only considering the last two, holding or hiking, at the present point in time. And that I guess is probably where maybe New Zealand is, whereas other central banks—I think in Europe and the UK even, and the US—are a bit more advanced than we are, because their inflation rates went up earlier, their inflation rates peaked earlier, they started to hike, in most cases, before we did, and consequently they're further down the track. I think we will get to where they are reasonably soon, but for now the RBA still has a very mild tightening bias. It's not yet thinking about cutting rates.

Well Shane, that's all very enlightening, and thank you very much for your time.

Thank you, Leon.

So what's happening in the news? Well, the monthly CPI indicator has slowed, rising 3.4% in the 12 months to January, undershooting analyst consensus forecasts of a rise to 3.6%. And universities could soon be facing major funding changes as the biggest review of the sector in decades calls for radical reshaping of the tertiary education sector. The University's Accord has recommended funding be delivered on a needs basis, similar to primary and high school funding, where extra loadings would be provided based on student and institutional disadvantage to make the system more accessible. It's called to boost university attainment rates nationally to 80%, effectively creating a demand-driven system for disadvantaged students. The review provides the federal government with a blueprint for long-term changes that seeks to tackle skill shortages in health, childcare, science, education, and manufacturing. The University's Accord said failing to increase student numbers would do lasting damage to Australia's prospects of national economic success, as well as damage social cohesion by locking out certain groups from high-paid jobs. Also among the recommendations are calls to double the number of university places, force institutions to pay those doing compulsory placements, increase a tertiary attainment target to 80% by 2050, and abolish the former coalition government's failed Job-ready Graduates policy that put costs up for arts degrees. The University's Accord is a review of the entire sector, looking at everything from how to make uni more accessible, to student safety and the role the sector will play in Australia's future. It lays out a blueprint for a widespread overhaul of a sector that teaches and employs hundreds of thousands. The federal government commissioned the review to inform the changes that we'll be making to tertiary education. Key recommendations include more than doubling the number of uni places to 1.8 million in 2050, to needs-based funding for certain groups and courses to make the system more equitable. This would involve increasing access to university education for students who are First Nations, from poor backgrounds, have a disability, and/or come from a regional, rural, or remote area. Other recommendations include better financial support for students and paying them for compulsory placements, and moving towards a HECS-HELP loan system where contributions are based on future potential earnings. And confidential Treasury analysis shows decade-high wages growth has pushed the average full-time salary above $100,000, and is now the biggest driver of consumer price inflation, undercutting claims widespread corporate profit gouging is to blame. Pay rises overtook import prices and supply shocks to form the lion's share of headline CPI in the June quarter last year, according to Treasury analysis—a trend economists expect to continue through the end of 2023 and into 2024. The analysis undercuts claims from the Greens, unions, and former ACCC chairman Alan Fels that widespread price gouging has been causing price rises. Those claims have sparked a wave of inquiries, including a Greens-led Senate probe into supermarket pricing, a year-long inquiry led by the ACCC, and a review of the voluntary code by Craig Emerson. The inflation analysis showed labor costs made up almost two-thirds of headline CPI in the year to June 30, 2023. The remaining was made up of import prices, global price shocks, and other elements. When annual CPI peaked at 7.8% in December 2022, wages made up about 30%. And the tax office is investigating a suspected $180 million tax fraud by a top former contractor in the construction industry. It could end up as the biggest tax fraud in Australian corporate history. Administrators of collapsed New South Wales company Delma Formwork Specialists have reported that the tax office alleges the firm was part of a group of 30, including labor hire, that it suspects may have been secretly controlled by Delma director Igor Gleb. The collapse owing pay-as-you-go tax over 15 years. The alleged tax scheme has yet to be substantiated, but if proven would be bigger than any previous corporate tax frauds, surpassing Plutus' payroll $15 million fraud and the record $135 million fraud by former EY executive Anthony Dixon. Delma is one of the largest formwork firms in New South Wales. Competitors state it repeatedly tendered prices 15 to 20% below other bidders for tier one projects, including the state government's $476 million Victoria Cross station development at North Sydney. Formwork involves laying the structures into which concrete is poured during construction. Jones Partners' principals Bruce Gleeson and Daniel Soames were appointed as voluntary administrators of Delma Formwork Specialists late last year and confirmed the ATO had notified them about its investigation after their appointment. Most of the companies involved in the alleged fraud, including a series of labor hire firms swapped out every two to three years, have been placed into external administration and are understood to have inadequate or poor records. The Delma case follows a separate investigation into an alleged tax fraud of up to $70 million involving another New South Wales construction firm, Titan Crane, which is headed by Sydney Olympic FC president Damen Handler. Titan denies any wrongdoing or involvement in the alleged scheme. The ATO is funding home advisory liquidator Steven Hathway to investigate the Delma group and to take control of DFS, after it emerged Mr. Gleeson had been the administrator of other related Delma entities in 2010 and 2011. And major CBD office towers are selling at 20% discounts to their peak value—the best evidence yet that the correction in Australia's office market is nearing the bottom. The latest deals in play include the 16-story building at 628 Burke Street, Melbourne, which was bought seven years ago for a little over $180 million by fund manager AFAA, and is now set to be acquired for $120 million. In Brisbane, US giant Brookfield found a buyer for its $300 million tower at 240 Queen Street, with boutique syndicator Central Equity raising capital for a sale price of $257 million, according to a deal flyer. Also closely watched by the market are two proposed divestments, including ASX-listed Mirvac. The first, at Sydney's 255 George Street, is held in a fund now managed by Mirvac. A half-stake is under offer from Singapore's Keppel at a price that values the entire tower at about $730 million. Two years ago, when the tower peaked, it was worth $875 million, meaning its market value is now around 17% lower. In Melbourne, Mirvac is close to finalizing a deal to sell a Collins Street building, having written down its book value to around $340 million, representing a 20% discount to its peak value two years ago. The shift to remote work, combined with uncertain business conditions and surging interest rates, sent office values tumbling around the world. The shakeout arrived late in Australia, with some experts flagging values could drop 25% before it fully washes through. And Australia's big four consulting firms have seen the value of contracts awarded by the commonwealth nearly halved in value, following the federal government's cold war against the sector after the PwC tax scandal. The cold shoulder towards KPMG Australia, EY, Deloitte, and PwC—which acquired PwC Australia's government arm in a $1 fire sale—has been a win for other firms, which have enjoyed noticeable increases in business over the first half of the financial year. With the fallout from the PwC tax scandal, federal agencies cut spending at the big four firms by more than 42% to $38.2 million in the six months to December 31, compared to the same period a year earlier, analysis of AusTender data reveals. Deloitte had the smallest decrease over the half, with the value of contracts awarded in the six months to December down 20.6% to about $111 million, followed by a 24.4% decline for KPMG to $147 million. EY dropped 6.6% to $49.2 million from a year earlier, according to AusTender. While the volume of contracts was similar, values overall were lower than the previous half when three agreements alone totaled $51.4 million, including a $28.3 million contract with the Department of Defense for Program Management Services. PwC secured $10.1 million worth of government business in the first half of 2023 financial year, before details about its tax scandal came to light. A year ago, there's been little work for the acquirer of its government business, Sign Advisory, which secured a $1.1 million contract to support the Department of Health's Primary Care work. There's been a slowdown in federal government projects and procurements, which has resulted in lower spending on specialist external advisors. The consensus was that smaller firms were getting more work on lower-valued contracts that would have previously gone to the big end of town. And the drums are beating louder about a Bendigo Bank acquisition of its $1.3 billion industry peer, Judo Bank. Bendigo is under pressure to grow to compete with major banks, and an acquisition of Judo would provide not only scale but a sizable entry into the business lending market. Judo was co-founded by outgoing Chief Executive Joseph Healey in 2016 to serve small business, a customer that major banks may overlook. It listed successfully in 2021 with a $2.3 billion market value, equating to 1.7 times its book value. It's been a tough gig since then as interest rates rose, with its capital costs higher than those of Bendigo Bank. Those costs would fall by as much as 100 to 200 basis points in a merger. After ANZ had gained permission from the competition tribunal last week for its $4.9 billion acquisition of Suncorp Bank, there's likely to be more consolidation in the banking industry. While Bank of Queensland is another potential buyer of Judo, most think Bendigo Bank is better positioned, even though it's currently doing a technology upgrade. Healey has already introduced much modern technology to Judo. And French building giant Saint-Gobain has sealed a $4.32 billion takeover offer for CSR, that includes accepting liability for the stained company's asbestos best claims. CSR's board said late Monday it had unanimously recommended shareholders accept the $9 per share offer from Saint-Gobain, as providing attractive value and certainty. The price represents a premium of 33% to CSR's closing share price on February 20. CSR, established in 1855 as a sugar refining business, has a portfolio of building products including Monier roofing, PGH bricks, and Jamex. Its Chief Executive Julie Coates said Saint-Gobain has strong strategic and cultural alignment with CSR. Ms. Coates said Saint-Gobain was buying all of the company, including claims for asbestos illnesses linked to the mining of raw asbestos fiber by one of its subsidiaries decades ago. CSR's involvement in asbestos mining ceased in 1966, and it stopped the manufacture of products containing asbestos in 1977. 'We've been responsibly paying claims for decades, and nothing will change,' Ms. Coates said. The company will continue to pay valid claims. CSR's asbestos provision stood at $187.5 million in September last year. CSR Chairman John Gillam said the offer provides attractive value and certainty for CSR shareholders. Mr. Gillam said he did not expect any opposition to the deal from the Foreign Investment Review Board. And Optus is laying off almost 200 staff, making deep cuts into one of the company's newest business ventures which installs smart home devices, after a recent review. A total of 198 redundancies are taking place this week, according to the telecommunications union, which described the cuts as deeply concerning. The telco cut 600 staff last year, a move the union believes had a major impact during the telco's national outage in November. Optus is making significant cuts in the company's O Team, with staff in this part of the business understood to have begun receiving redundancy notices as early as Tuesday. The nation's second-largest telco began winding down parts of the business as early as last month, discontinuing a service called the O Team Online, which it had charged customers a $10 monthly fee to provide on-demand support. Post-insulation and white-collar industries such as banking, accounting, and consulting employ more men in their most demanding and lucrative roles, fueling pay disparities that mean women earn 20% less than men. The median pay gap on base salaries of businesses with 100-plus employees was 14.5%, according to company-level data published by the Workplace Gender Equality Agency for the first time. The gap jumped to 19% once bonuses, overtime, and allowances were factored in. Some of Australia's top companies were among the biggest gender inequality laggards. Dairy manufacturer A2 Milk had the biggest gap in the ASX 200 at 40.5%, followed by infrastructure services provider Ventia at 39.1%, intellectual property law firm IPH at 38.9%, and airline Qantas at 37%. Beach Energy and AGL were the worst of the energy and mining giants, each with a gap of 33.2%, while Commonwealth Bank was the worst of the big retail banks at 29.9%. And it's the last week of the profit reporting season. Lynas Rare Earths has booked a decline to net profit of $39.5 million. Health insurance provider NIB Holdings has recorded a 19.4% increase to its net profit at $14 million. Online retailer Kogan.com made a net profit after tax of $8.68 million for the six months ending December 31, compared with a bottom line loss of $23.8 million a year ago. Endeavour Group, the operator of retail chains BWS and Dan Murphy's, has recorded a 2.5% increase to group sales at $6.7 billion. Earnings before interest and tax increased 2.6% to $661 million. Net profit declined 3.6% to $351 million. Suncorp's cash profits in the six months to December were up 13.8% at $660 million. TPG Telecom's annual net profit shrunk to $49 million from $513 million. Non-bank lender Liberty recorded an underlying interim net profit of $64 million, down 34% on the previous first half. Bedding and Furniture maker Deceuninck slumped 10.1% to $291.2 million. Wesfarmers has reported a rise in annual net profit to $773.9 million. Takeover target Alumina swung to a net loss of US$150 million—that's $228 million AUD. Pathology group Helius posted a $636 million loss. Burns treatment specialist PolyNovo has swung to a $2.7 million net profit. Mortgage and true Helia formula Genworth reported underlying profit of $47.7 million. SelfWealth has lifted its net profit to $1.6 million. Cooper Energy's underlying earnings before interest, depreciation, and amortization gained 2% to $6.9 million. Pathology company Helius has crashed to a bottom line loss of $636 million in the December half. Retailer City Chic widened stat losses fourfold to $21 million in the first half of fiscal 2024. Gold Coast-based childcare operator G8 posted a full-year statutory profit of $56.1 million, up from $36.6 million. Woodside Energy's net profit for the year ended December 31 dropped to US$3.32 billion—that's $5.1 billion AUD—from US$5.23 billion in 2022. Payment platform Zip delivered a net profit of $73 million. Supermarket chain Coles Group's first-half net profit fell 8.4% to $599 million from $643 million in the year-earlier period. Software company Altium reported an 11.4% jump in net profit in the first half of fiscal 2024. Reckitt Benckiser Group has reported a 20% rise in half-year net profit to $224 million. Payments terminal provider CEYE eked out a $5.1 million net profit for the half, with underlying line lifting by 40.6% to $27.3 million. Sydney-based data service company Appen also reported suffering a statutory loss of US$118.1 million for the year ended December 31, and an underlying earnings loss of US$20.4 million. New Zealand telecommunications company Chorus's net profit slipped to $5 million NZD from $9 million NZD in the six months to December 2023. Mexican fast food chain Guzman y Gomez reported a statutory net loss after tax of $3.9 million, more than double the $1.1 million loss reported in the previous corresponding period. Online travel planner Flight Centre's profit for the period jumped to $12.2 million, compared to a loss of $18.3 million a year earlier. Perpetual's underlying profit for the six months to the end of December was $98.2 million. Gaming technology businesses Light & Wonder's net profit rose to $180 million, compared to a net loss of $176 million in the prior year. Payments platform EML Payments reported a $12.4 million net loss recorded in the six months to the end of December. Data center giant NEXTDC has recorded a $22.5 million loss, up almost $20 million from the prior corresponding period. Engineering Group Wally has swung to a $160 million interim profit from a year-earlier $99 million loss. Transport and tourism group T Kalian reported a 20% net profit increase to $43 million. Australian Clinical Labs posted a statutory net profit of $5 million, down 8.5%. Its underlying net profit of $20.3 million was down 48.5%.

And that's it for this week. And next week I'll be talking to Brooklyn-based Real Essentials CEO Isaac Wolf, who is a leader in the fashion industry and who's committed to producing environmentally friendly and ethically sourced clothing that helps people look and feel their best at an affordable cost. And I'll be talking to economist Sjak Slak about the latest inflation figures. For the most exclusive access to leading economists and business leaders from around the world, subscribe to Talking Business from my website, leonlellner.com. If you like Talking Business, please leave us a review with Apple Podcast. Thank you in advance. In the meantime, catch me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube. And if you want, leave a comment. If you want to contact me, email me at [email protected]. I answer all emails. Wishing you all a safe and healthy week, and looking forward to bringing you Talking Business next week.