Welcome to a new episode of Maet, very special because we are live at Spotify's offices in Milan and among other things, an audience of 50 of our most loyal listeners are here, and I am very honored to have Luca Ferrari, CEO and co-founder of Bending Spoons with us. I was telling Luca earlier, I've wanted to interview him for years. So now, after more than 200 entrepreneurs on Maet, today an objective is realized, this year is starting well. I don't know how to take it, you interviewed everyone and they say 'well now I have to'... no no, trust me, I was saying I don't know... you don't do many interviews, so thank you so much for being here with us, your time is precious and I can't wait to ask you many questions. So welcome to Maet. Thank you, thank you. For all our listeners, you know we always like to start from the beginning and also from the context in which you were born. Can you tell us where you come from, if there were particularly important experiences in your childhood that you can tell us about, that shaped you and shaped who you are today? Existential question.
I come from a very small town in the province of Verona called Settimo di Pescantina. At the time it had about 900 inhabitants, I think today maybe a few more, but not many. My parents were hairdressers for women, so humble origins. What I learned... certainly from my parents and from that environment: the importance of working hard, honesty, and also that nothing is owed, everything must be earned with blood and sweat. I think that's a mentality that helps you in life in general.
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Look, when I was very little, 4-5 years old, I vaguely remember that I wanted to be a forest ranger because I love nature and animals. No, I had no concept of entrepreneurship until much later, probably at university. I grew up in a rural environment, a small world, with pros and cons. Certainly it's not the place to expand your horizons. So it's not something I contemplated. I only began to perceive this opportunity during my university years, where I was exposed to other students with much broader horizons. In hindsight, it's evident that I had a strong, almost irrepressible desire to build something, or at least try to build something very large, very challenging, to be proud of. And there are some signals that, as often happens, you interpret in hindsight. For example, when I was very young, around 6 or 7, I spent a lot of time designing a country, an imaginary state, with all its laws, institutions, various industries. I filled thousands of sheets with these projects. I distinctly remember that it was shaped like Australia, an island in the Atlantic Ocean. And I also remember that I wanted to start from scratch because I've always been a bit of an idealist perfectionist. But today I interpret that as a sign of a strong desire to build something; I simply didn't have the parameters or examples to understand that it could be a company.
One thing that struck me about your story and that I liked, because you also shared it in other interviews, is that you described yourself as a teenager as a very shy guy who struggled to socialize, but that one of the greatest gifts you received in life were these two friends who taught you how to make friends. Can you take us back to when you were 10 years old, tell us how they taught you to make friends and what this lesson gave you?
Yes, it was a fundamental turning point for me. When I was little, I was extremely shy and introverted, to almost pathological levels. Probably there was a grain of autism. I spent all of kindergarten without ever speaking to anyone except one teacher. I only played with my neighbor. Otherwise I had extreme difficulty socializing, but I wanted to, I just felt blocked. In middle school, after a year, I still only spoke with one classmate from my town. On a class day trip, I was walking alone when two classmates, both named Alberto, came up from behind, hugged me, and started talking to me. On the bus, they brought me to sit with the cool kids. For a long time they worked hard to bring me out of my shell. Little by little, I gained confidence and became more autonomous. A year later I was fully integrated. In third year, one of the Alberti got angry at me and told me that the teacher had pointed out that I was always alone and told them to help me. In that moment, I felt immense gratitude. Besides giving me confidence, they inspired me to be altruistic with others.
Thank you for sharing that. Then you graduated with top marks in computer engineering at the University of Padua. You then obtained a master's in electronics and telecommunications between Padua and the Technical University of Denmark. How did you end up in Denmark? And how was the transition from university to founding a startup? Did you do it during university or right after?
Well, I ended up in Denmark because I was always a bit behind in realizing how the world worked. During university I realized that speaking English would be very useful for working in technology. There was an opportunity for a double degree program, and some universities, like the Technical University of Denmark, had an English program. Also in Denmark they speak English well. So it was a way to combine learning new technical things and learning the language. I went there with another student from Padua; we weren't close then but became very close living together. We met another guy, Matteo Francesco, who had been dumped by his girlfriend, so he moved in with us. We ended up seven people in an apartment meant for three; the landlady never knew. We became great friends. On a trip to Bali after graduation, we came up with the idea for a startup. The year was 2010. The product was an app that used artificial intelligence to collect user data and automatically write a diary of the user's life. I was so obsessed with the startup that I couldn't complete the thesis papers I had promised my supervisor. I had to tell him I couldn't do it, and he was very understanding. We then threw ourselves into that startup, called Evertale.
You worked on Evertale for a couple of years, but since you're here as founder of Bending Spoons, it didn't go as you wanted, but it surely gave you the foundation and you learned a lot about what it means to be an entrepreneur. If you had to choose one important lesson, even though there were many, that you carried from that experience?
From a commercial point of view it was a complete failure. We never billed more than maybe 1000 euros in a month. So it's good to know that from where you started to where you are now, there is hope for everyone. The mistake we made was jumping into implementation almost immediately, only to discover the idea didn't work. It would have been much better to invest more time in planning. A well-done planning phase takes at most 5% of the implementation time. The second lesson was about building the team. We didn't put enough effort into hiring the best people. Even though Evertale failed because we were incompetent, the team we built was inferior to what we could have had. If the idea had been good, a stronger team would have been crucial. So never compromise on team building; invest the maximum possible effort.
We'll talk more about team later because it's important for startup success. But I wanted to ask: here in Italy we tend to do many projects but not have this 'shoot for the moon' mindset that you have. So we end up with many small startups, often because of fear of failure. In America they all do this: either I do something that changes the world or I fail. What is your relationship with failure?
Terrible. I hate it deeply. But I hate having regrets even more, so I'm someone who throws himself in and never gives up. Failure hurts me a lot. I think about high school: we lost a five-a-side soccer final 6-5. One goal I could have blocked if I had given 100% effort. For years I thought about that. So the technique is: I hate losing so much that I must avoid failing at all costs, but I hate regrets more, so I choose to take risks. But it's almost certain you'll fail sometimes, and you hope to fail less than you actually do.
So how was the idea of Bending Spoons born after the technical failure of Evertale?
It was born from a deep study of luck. During the Evertale experience, we met about 20-30 teams doing startups. We observed very little correlation between talented, hardworking teams and success. So we concluded that luck plays a big role going from zero to one. The second hypothesis: the skills needed for the initial phase are different from those needed to scale. The third: you can develop the skills to manage a digital tech company well with talent and effort. From these hypotheses came the strategy: build a platform of technologies, talents, data, and culture to acquire digital tech businesses with unrealized potential and transform them to be more successful. We started with 40,000 euros and the first acquisition cost about 10-15,000 euros. Over time, through reinvestment, we grew.
Indeed, I hear that you describe Bending Spoons as a mix between a private equity fund and Google. So your business model is exactly to take these companies and enhance them, very hands-on with your tech team. And there's scalability: one developer can work on various projects. 2024 was a year of huge acquisitions: WeTransfer, StreamYard, Meetup. Congratulations, it's wonderful to see Italian companies buying foreign tech companies. But I also heard you say that you almost never lost a bid. Why do you think companies want to sell to you and not to a private equity fund or other companies?
Typically because we offered the highest price. In the vast majority of cases, price is the number one consideration. The question is how we can offer the highest price while still generating good returns. That's thanks to the platform: we are better than others at managing the company, improving product, monetization, marketing. Under our leadership, the business trajectory deviates upward much more sharply, so we can offer an attractive price and still have a large margin.
Speaking of fundraising, the first 3-4 years of Bending Spoons were bootstrap, which is unusual for startups today. But since 2019 you began raising capital, and to date you've raised a total of $696 million between debt and equity, if I'm correct. Many funds participated, both Italian and foreign, like Baillie Gifford, Anox Capital, Creator Partners, and even Ryan Reynolds. When people read these headlines, they might think it was easy for you. Was it easy? Did you also get some doors slammed in your face?
First of all, our model allowed us to proceed for a long time without raising equity. When we did Evertale, we raised about 1 million euros and made at most 1000 euros monthly revenue. Our first significant raise was in 2023, 9 years into the project. We didn't need the money; we did it strategically: to have deep-pocketed investors for quick acquisition financing, and to help with credibility for a potential IPO. My experience was binary: either they like you and it's easy, or they don't. With Bending Spoons we were in the first category. With Evertale, we struggled. At one point, after our initial investor declined to give more money, Francesco and I went to San Francisco for two weeks, literally waiting outside VC offices. In the end no one invested, but Vinod Khosla said he was interested. We naively told our investor, who then agreed to give us the money. I later learned that you never know until the money is in the bank.
Obviously the selection of investors, if you are in the privileged position of being able to choose, how do you make that decision? Do you ask questions, investigate? I mean, it's a collective decision.
I'd say there are two themes: first, you look at the terms investors offer—capital is fungible—so you seek better valuation and governance terms. Second, to gauge the investor's approach, we did reference checks by talking to other entrepreneurs who have dealt with them. We were lucky to access some of the best investors in the world; it was easy because everyone confirmed. But always do background checks because when things go bad, some investors step up and others don't. And be careful: investors are great salesmen, and money is fungible; the charismatic ones often win. This can deceive a naive person like me, so talk to others to verify.
You are the contrary proof: you raised large capital and have a valuation over 2.5 billion. So is being in Italy a hindrance or an excuse people hide behind?
It has advantages and disadvantages. The American startup raises 10 million but has an impossible labor market. So it's not clear that more money but less talent is better. I think clearly winning projects can find capital anywhere, maybe at slightly worse terms. Projects in the grey area struggle more. But access to capital is not the main factor limiting the Italian startup ecosystem. If there were more money it would be better, but it's not the main factor. As Dag Leo said, money follows good ideas. I often get asked by American investors to present Italian opportunities; they are happy to invest at favorable terms in a more hidden opportunity. Italy has a good reputation for stability. But we need strong projects, and we have few at the moment, though more than before.
What was the most difficult moment you had to overcome professionally and how did you overcome it?
There have been many. I'm reluctant to complain because I'm privileged. But one example is evertale, which was a complete failure except for lessons. Three years of dedication, working 90-100 hours per week, no vacation, and after three years you have almost nothing. It hurts, but there are more serious things in life.
