I think the best problem solvers have a rare combination of great conviction and incredible insecurity and paranoia.
Welcome to a new episode of the Actually podcast. Today we're exploring this new spin-off we're creating in partnership with Satispay. It's called A Capo. First, I need to introduce my co-host, Alberto Dalmasso, CEO of Satispay. Hi Alberto. I'm very happy because we're on a great journey here. Let's start with the title a capo. Why a capo?
A capo, because in these episodes we'll be speaking with various company heads. We'll be questioning what it means to be a boss today, at the helm of a complex organization, but also a boss because there's a new beginning in the world of leadership right now. It seems that everything has changed in terms of leadership in recent years. What is today's leadership compared to what we were used to?
We will take this journey with many leaders at the head of Italian companies. I won't let you perhaps introduce our first guest because he's a friend of yours.
Yes, absolutely. It's an honor for me. We had this idea from the privilege of interacting with other leaders, telling their stories. Starting with Luca Ferrari of Bending Spoon is truly a privilege. He found the time, which he doesn't have. He's a person who thinks about everything he says. We've met before. I've asked him several times to have lunch or coffee to discuss leadership and personnel management. Luca has great family values, hard work, honesty. He studied engineering in Padua, then moved to Denmark for his other degree. He founded the company, and I remember being surprised when he moved to Italy but also happy. Seeing such an innovative company with technology, growth, and scalability deciding to stay in Italy, where people talk about Satispay and Bending Spoon as unicorns. Unfortunately, there are too few of us. I'd like them to forget the unicorn. A larger ecosystem would provide more talent and opportunity. Luca, thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Thank you, honored, happy to be here. Let's see what knowledge and wisdom. I don't know.
Welcome back, because you've already been here on Actually in the SEO Nights format, one of the episodes that attracted the most interest. Luca told us many of his habits, including his difficulty accepting invitations. I'm holding onto this time. Let's get right to leadership. For a company like Bending Spoons, leadership means the ability to attract talent. You and Alberto are extraordinary in attracting talent from around the world, which isn't easy in Italy. How did you get to this position? What are the biggest challenges? Why is it not a given to bring top talent to Milan?
You're right. We have a long way to go, but we've made significant progress. This year we expect more than 600,000 unique applications to work at Bending Spoons. More than half will be foreigners. Not all come to Milan; we have an office in London. Compared to ten years ago, we've made leaps, but it's still a challenge because it's about the ecosystem, culture, diversity of experiences and skills, which is powerful for economic growth. I see the jobs we offer as a product. You need to put as much attention into the job product as into the customer product. People are simple: ambitious, motivated people want learning, feeling useful including impact, and compensation and benefits. They want to see all three grow over time. That's the product you need to offer and promote.
In terms of communication, how do you make those three elements explicit to candidates? During the offer phase? Your People and Culture team handles it. How does it emerge?
Historically, we've been mediocre in communication. Our superpowers are elsewhere: data, software quality, product decisions, growth, commitment. We're trying to improve. Substance sells products first; then you can optimize with form. What makes the difference is word of mouth from existing employees or reviews on Glassdoor. If it depended only on our promotion, we wouldn't be here. But we're working on it.
You have great skills in creating processes and viewing the job as a product. I've noticed you have a talent acquisition machine similar to your user acquisition team. A year ago you found a director from abroad who restructured it. How many people are on your People and Culture team? I'll start with Satispay.
We have about forty of us out of 730 employees.
Wow. How many of you are there? 50 or so out of 500. We call ourselves spooners. Now just under 1,000 including acquisitions. Around 730 total. The numbers fluctuate.
Our company was born from a group of engineers, scientists, and nerds who are logical, rational, analytical, dedicated, and ambitious. That engine is first; then you add the livery. It's like buying the engine then putting on the bodywork. You can't be exceptional at everything. You pick your battles, bet the future on one or two things you want to do really well, and be adequate in others. We've always strived to excel in substance, structure, decision-making quality, tools, and technology.
Those 50 people are 100% focused on talent. I invest 20% of my time. About 30 people handle talent density: hiring and identifying who should be let go. They use data science, proprietary tests, and a custom candidate management tool. Another 10 handle administrative matters like contracts and payroll. And we have a people operations team for employee experience, including a yearly all-expense-paid company retreat of 7-9 days. Last one was at SE Shell, not mandatory. With 500 people, we manage over a billion in revenue, 300 million active users, 11 million customers. The cost per person is over €4,000, but the value in cohesion and retention is much higher.
Retention has never been an issue; we never lose more than 1% of the colleagues we wanted to stay. But we have significant induced exits, 10-15% per year, higher for new hires. If someone stays two years, it's a long-term marriage. Now, about the probationary period. In Italy, labor regulations are ultra-strict, which actually causes harm to the workers. How do you interpret the probationary period in a satisfactory way?
For very young profiles, it's extremely short. We try to form a serious opinion within that deadline. It can't be six months for everyone, but we encourage managers to consider it within six months regardless of legal duration. We support them with a separate team of 40-50 people who ask the right questions, because young managers need help to evaluate properly.
That's a distortion. I spoke with a manager of an American consulting firm in Italy. They say the probationary period is the only time they can fire someone, so they use it as a trial. It's transparent.
Sure, six months is better than nothing. But we tell applicants: we offer extraordinary impact, responsibility, learning opportunities, talented colleagues, top salary and benefits. It's like playing for Real Madrid; it's not a permanent job, it's a heroic adventure. If it doesn't work out, we part ways constructively. Most people are intelligent and well-intentioned. Those who leave often go to Google.
How much weight does the value manifesto have in your companies?
For Satispay, values are complicated because companies change. We started with values like courage and responsibility. We want to do things that matter and not have a negative impact. The mission can change, but the pillars describing behaviors—like put user first, be transparent, dive deep—can also change. We recently simplified to one word: ownership. Do things as if it were your company.
Luca, how do you interpret this issue of values? Do you have a manifesto on the walls?
I separate axiomatic values, like respect, which cannot be compromised. Then instrumental values that help achieve the company's goal can change over time if necessary. We've codified ours in different ways. It's important to live them every day. For example, ambition means aiming to be the best in the world. If a colleague proposes a so-so solution and no one says anything, that value is debased. You must commit to implementing values in daily decisions. That creates a corporate culture in substance, not form.
It's incredible when a leader can step back and the machine works on those parameters, like an automatic pilot. Values guide actions internally and make work scalable.
You know the culture is working when you are corrected by others. Example: I wanted to keep a colleague whose evaluations were below par, but another colleague pointed out our principle of 'compromising excellence'—we want the best left-back. I realized I was wrong. Another example: I pushed for a complete redesign of Meetup's UX, but a colleague suggested an iterative approach, citing pragmatism. I agreed. When you see those cultural aspects being absorbed and promoted by others, it's powerful.
