CEOInterviews.AIGreiner Hard Talks - Hannes Moser

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Stefan Grafenhorst0:33

Welcome to Greiner Hard Talks. In today's episode, I once again want to talk about sustainability: how to create a sustainable economy and how to create sustainable businesses. My name is Stefan Grafenhorst, I'm the Head of Sustainability at the Greiner group headquarter. And when I'm not in front of this camera, I usually support our divisions in actually becoming more sustainable. So how to build a better future? Today I want to discuss this with Hannes Moser.

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Hannes Moser1:06

Hi Stefan. Thank you for your invitation.

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Stefan Grafenhorst1:09

Welcome, Hannes. It's a pleasure to have you here. Before we talk about sustainability, in these tough times we obviously need to talk about a pandemic. There's no way out. And since you're the master of finance within Greiner, well, give us an overview of how we cope with the pandemic as a company. And maybe you add something about how the pandemic has changed your life.

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Hannes Moser1:38

Well, I'd like to start with my personal life. It has changed a lot in the last year. I'm a person who likes to travel a lot, meet my friends, meet other people. And obviously, as we all know, this is not possible the way we did before the pandemic broke out. So there are restrictions we have as persons and as companies. A lot of things have changed. And as a company, I must say that we are doing very well in this pandemic, not only economically, but also from how people have reacted to new ways of working, new ways of living, new ways of cooperating digitally. So I'm very happy with what I've seen over the last year in the company.

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Stefan Grafenhorst2:35

And since we are not at the end, what do you see for 2021? What is your outlook? Is it going to stay the same or are we going to see darker times?

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Hannes Moser2:43

Well, hopefully not. I do think that we still have some months ahead where it will be very tough to get rid of this pandemic. And when I'm saying months, my best estimate would be that after the summer we will have something like a normal life again.

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Stefan Grafenhorst3:06

Sounds good. I can't wait for that, to be very honest. The two learnings that you've learned from the crisis? I mean what do you take away, maybe in a positive sense?

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Hannes Moser3:20

Well, two learnings. One is to never underestimate how people can change when they have to. An example: we discussed for a long time about distance and remote working models, how to organize it, if it was possible for all areas within Greiner AG for example. These were long discussions, but from one day to the other, we had to do it - and we succeeded. So never underestimate people's willingness to change. And the other one is: I think we can adapt quite fast as a company to new situations. So adapting fast would be one of the learnings that we should be proud of.

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Stefan Grafenhorst4:07

Now, we want to talk about sustainability because for the last year we have all talked about the pandemic. So we're going to stop here. Thank you. Before we start talking about sustainability, about change and transformation, and what you just mentioned, the ability of people to change, I would like to talk about you as a person. I know you have been the CFO for about 10 years now.

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Hannes Moser4:32

Exactly.

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Stefan Grafenhorst4:33

And for today, I brought a couple of sentences that I would like you to finish. So, my first sentence starts with: The most adventurous thing I have ever done in my life is?

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Hannes Moser4:51

Let me think about it. Well, I think the most adventurous thing I did was... I'm a skier, I love skiing. And I raced down one of the most challenging skiing slopes years ago with a friend, a professional racer, at approximately 105 km/h. So this was great.

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Stefan Grafenhorst5:13

That was fast, obviously! Great. Second sentence: The best decision of my life was?

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Hannes Moser5:22

That's very easy. To propose to my wife nearly 30 years ago.

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Stefan Grafenhorst5:28

My first job ever was?

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Hannes Moser5:32

When I was twelve years old I used to work at a miniature golf place. So, I sold entrance tickets and I sold beer and other things to the people that went there playing mini golf.

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Stefan Grafenhorst5:47

That sounds like a lot of fun. Next question: If I had a chance to meet a famous person for dinner, who would that be?

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Hannes Moser5:58

A famous person I would like to meet is Warren Buffett. I think he did a lot of changing companies into being more sustainable. And we will talk about that, I think, later on what sustainability really means. I would like to meet Warren Buffett.

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Stefan Grafenhorst6:20

My favorite question, and it's also already the last question: My favorite Greiner division is?

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Hannes Moser6:28

Stefan, that's unfair. That's like asking a father which of his children he loves most. So I think for me, if I'm thinking about Greiner's divisions - and I want to stay with the family - you have days where you can't see one of your children, and you have days where you really love one or the other. So this is my answer to this one. And I love diversification.

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Stefan Grafenhorst7:01

Great. I thought, like, you are just going to go with the most profitable one. No. Good, thanks Hannes. Now, let's jump into the topic of sustainability. And you have just mentioned Warren Buffett. He obviously maneuvered and managed companies sustainably. So let's start with: What's your understanding of a sustainable company? What is the characteristic of it? I mean, we see millions of companies, but what makes a sustainable company?

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Hannes Moser7:34

I think it's important to define sustainability because I think that a lot of people think it's only about being a green company, being good to the planet, doing everything for the environment. But I think sustainability is much more than that. Peter Fisk once said: 'Sustainability is the intersection between people, planet - so the green element - and profits.' And that's where companies should move in. And that's how I would like to define sustainability for us as a company, too.

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Stefan Grafenhorst8:10

And where do you think do we stay in those three elements?

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Hannes Moser8:14

Well, there is a lot of improvement in all of the three. As the CFO of the company, I have to say that there must be room for improvement in profits as well. But we are doing very well, especially during the last year. When it comes to people, I think there are still a lot of things to do. And I'm not talking about safe working places, I think our working places are safe, but it's much more than that. It's about gender equality, it's about having an environment, a working environment where everybody can really do what he or she does best. So we still have a lot to do there. And when it comes to the environment, I think we have started a lot of initiatives to reduce our CO2 footprints, to reduce emissions, to reduce waste, and so on. But still, there are a lot of areas of improvement there.

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Stefan Grafenhorst9:13

Now, there will be people obviously saying - or they could argue: 'Great, you're reducing emissions, you are reducing water and waste and whatever resources you need, but the core of your business, doing plastics, is not sustainable. So it's very nice that you do something here, but the core of your business is not okay.' What would you do?

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Hannes Moser9:34

I would argue very heavily because I don't believe and I don't think that the core of our business is not sustainable. It's true that we have a lot of one-time-use products, but what are these products? You have to look at it. Let's look, for example, at Bio-One. All their Preanalytics products make work safer for the people in the hospital and at the doctors. So why would you change that? What's not sustainable with security for people in the medical area? When we're talking about packaging, during the pandemic, people wanted to have safe food, safe packaging, so plastics is perfect. So it's not about what we are doing, it's what the whole value chain does, the consumer, and how we can reuse the resources we put into our products.

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Stefan Grafenhorst10:32

Now, you're probably talking to a lot of other senior executives in other companies. Is sustainability a topic there or is it just something that you and me have today here as an issue?

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Hannes Moser10:44

It is a topic. It has not been a topic, I must be honest here, for years. But since, I would say, since five years, four years, it has really become a topic during discussions not only with other executives but also with the people I treat most from the banks, from investors and so on.

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Stefan Grafenhorst11:10

We're going to come to the banks part later. That's an interesting part. But what exactly do you talk about? Is it just showing off and saying 'oh look, we do this and this'? Or, what are the topics concretely?

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Hannes Moser11:24

This has changed too, a lot, because you're absolutely right. Years ago you said, well, 'I'm doing this, you're doing that.' So it was just an exchange of what everybody did. Now the discussions are, 'I'm doing this, how can you help me? Because you're doing a different thing.' So I think companies try to interact with other companies in order to really create a circular business model, or to look what's in front of me, what's behind me. That's the big difference.

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Stefan Grafenhorst12:01

What do you think, who are our partners when it comes to solving sustainability issues? If you have to name them? You were just saying obviously the value chain needs to work together, you need to look at what's happening behind you and before you. Who are those players?

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Hannes Moser12:17

It's obviously our raw material suppliers. We have to collaborate with them on one side, and it's our customers. And our customers, this is the big companies, this is medical business and so on. They again, cooperate with their customers in order to really put up this whole stream. But we also have to discuss with the machine manufacturers, with manufacturers of machines that can really recycle material, for example. So we know what they need in order to be able to recycle our end products.

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Stefan Grafenhorst12:55

Now, I hear colleagues that would say, 'Why don't we buy a waste collector, or a recycling company to fix the problem? Then we have the material, you know, we have someone to collect it and then we recycle ourselves and then have the product. And then we create the loop ourselves and make sure that we are circular.' Why should we? Do we have the knowledge?

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Hannes Moser13:18

I don't think that we have the knowledge for the whole value chain and the whole circle. But why shouldn't we collaborate with companies that have this knowledge? We are not the best in everything. We're the best or one of the best in designing, manufacturing, developing our products - be it in packaging, be it in Bio-One, in the foam business, or in the extrusion company. But we are not recyclers. It's true you can buy this knowledge, but why should we? There are companies out there that are really great in doing what they do. So just team up with them and create this whole chain.

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Stefan Grafenhorst14:00

But if you look at the history of Greiner, you know, we have done very different things. That's why I thought, why not doing something else in the future? Also considering that plastics is heavily criticized. So my question would also be, are we going to do the same in 20 years, or do we see some parts of our business disappearing? Just think about the European Commission banning products and we see other regulations that make our work hard. Because people obviously don't believe in the material and in the products that we do.

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Hannes Moser14:35

I don't think that people don't believe in the material. They do not want to see the material out in nature. That's what we always hear and that's what we always see. I think there is a lot of education to be done, still, how to treat our material. But materials in themselves are not good or bad. It's how you treat them as a consumer. That's very important to differentiate.

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Stefan Grafenhorst15:01

And I think when you ask me if we are in business still in 20 years with the products we are producing today - not with all the products, I agree.

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Hannes Moser15:09

There will be products that will disappear and there will be products that will stay the same for the next 20 years. And here again, I'm referencing to Bio-One: In a hospital, taking samples of blood, for example. What would you use? Would you go back to the early 1900s using glass there? I don't think so. It's too dangerous for people's lives. So we should really use the material wisely in applications where it makes sense. We shouldn't do everything out of plastics obviously, but where it makes sense, we should use it. It's a good material.

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Stefan Grafenhorst15:52

Good. You've mentioned the role of banks before. That's obviously your metier. And I guess you talk to banks a lot. Now, I've read an article earlier this week that banks obviously look into profits, no doubt. They want to see and want to learn about the performance. And that's obviously hard numbers. But they more and more also look into the sustainability performance. Can you just give us a little bit of insight? What are the questions? What do banks want to see when it comes to the sustainability of companies?

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Hannes Moser16:28

Here, I want to go back two years, more or less. Until two years ago, it was about profits, it was about a business strategy. It was about where do you want to invest into machines, buildings, whatsoever. Two years ago, the discussions with the banks changed a lot. All these questions still come up, but they also ask, 'Do you have a sustainability strategy? What is in the strategies? What do you want to achieve over the next three to five years?' Like emission control and reduction, like material waste evasion, and so on. So they really want to see what companies are doing in this sense.

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Stefan Grafenhorst17:15

And do you have a feeling that we do enough? That our performance is already there, in terms of what they want to see?

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Hannes Moser17:22

In what they want to see? Yes, it's enough what we're doing. I think we are one of the first companies that started a really good sustainability strategy. You always have to go to a point where you start, but now they want to see, over the next years, our efforts come into reality.

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Stefan Grafenhorst17:43

One of the targets that we have as a company is obviously growing. Growth is a centerpiece of the corporate strategy, while we also have a sustainability strategy. Now, my question is, how does that work together? Because, again, we have seen growth over the last decades in most regions of the world. But that came with a price, and the price was the picture that we see: marine littering, emission increase, and so on and so forth. More waste, strong economy. So how do we get that together? Is it actually possible to get growth and sustainability together?

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Hannes Moser18:23

Yes, I think it's possible, but only if you situate, if you locate a company in this intersection of profits and growth, people and the planet. So the way of doing business must be different than in the past. Each company just looked at its own growth, profits, and so on. Some of them looked at their people, at the employees, but a lot of them didn't look at all at the environment. So this has changed now, I think. And if you look at this triangle, I think growth is still possible without damaging the environment and without damaging people's lives.

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Stefan Grafenhorst19:11

So what's driving us to change now? I mean, what's happening? What's the game-changer to stop this?

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Hannes Moser19:18

I think the big game-changer is the big public. And it's all of us as private persons too. You wouldn't buy from companies that exploit people or even worse, exploit children in different areas of the world. So you won't buy there. So I think the consumer itself is much more powerful, much more in possession of information than decades ago. And if you still want to survive on the marketplace as a company, you have to fulfill, in the end, consumers' expectations. So it's the consumer, not the lawmaker or the regulator that changes the game.

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Stefan Grafenhorst19:58

When talking to a CFO, we obviously also need to talk about money and costs. And again, coming to costs and sustainability, we might have the case where, for instance, a more sustainable material might come with a higher price, where a different way of dealing with waste or water comes with a higher price. To give you an example, we all know that the cost of virgin material for Greiner Packaging tends to be lower than recycled material. Now, what do we do? We see there is a more sustainable product, which will obviously have an effect on our profits. What do we do?

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Hannes Moser20:43

It will have an effect, a very short-time effect on our profits. Decades ago - well, you even don't have to go back decades - you wouldn't have chosen this material, I agree with you. I think now things have changed. You would choose this material even if profits were a little bit lower. But in the long run, people, our customers, and the consumer, they do want this material and it pays off. If you don't use it, if you don't go this way, you will be out of the market. Greiner is now more than 150 years old. I think it's been possible to survive this long because we adapted to the markets' needs. And people see that it really makes sense to use these products, to use recycled material, to use less energy and so on, even if a production like that costs more. So in the long run, I think it pays off and it contributes to the survival, in the future, of the company.

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Stefan Grafenhorst21:50

Now, we have talked about change quite often here and there, and change is tricky because everyone wants to see change, but people don't really want to change. How do you see that? What can you do as a senior executive to embrace or also encourage change within the company?

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Hannes Moser22:13

Change is a very difficult issue within the company, especially when it comes to changing old habits and things we've always done in one or the other way. But you have to live the change, you have to convince the people. It's not just telling people you have to change or you have to do things differently. People have to see why it's important to change. So, this takes longer obviously, but this is also, I think, one of the big positive things at Greiner that people want to understand what they are doing. And once they see, 'Hey, this could be a better way of doing things!' they really just do it. So it takes longer to convince the people why change is necessary. But then once they have understood, and once they are on the train, they'll do it. So I'm very positive about that.

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Stefan Grafenhorst23:10

So the 'Why' is important.

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Hannes Moser23:12

Yes.

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Stefan Grafenhorst23:12

Again, then in a nutshell, why do we need to change?

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Hannes Moser23:14

Because otherwise, we will not survive as a company. And you mentioned it before during our talk, Greiner has changed a lot over the last 150 years. We started with different products, different materials and so on. And once we saw that these products do not have a future anymore, we said, 'Okay, we have a lot of knowledge in the company. We have a lot of good people in the company that are eager to try out new things, so just try out new things.' And I think that's very deep in the DNA of Greiner: Change!

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Stefan Grafenhorst23:53

Hannes, we are almost at the end of our interview, but before I have to let you go I want to do something with you. I have brought with me some words and I would like to ask you to respond to them with whatever comes to your mind.

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Hannes Moser24:10

Okay.

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Stefan Grafenhorst24:10

First word is: Growth.

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Hannes Moser24:12

Very important for the company, for the future, and as a CFO, I will tell you, profitable growth is key for us.

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Stefan Grafenhorst24:22

Horror movies.

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Hannes Moser24:24

I don't like horror movies. I prefer sci-fi.

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Stefan Grafenhorst24:30

Okay, science fiction it is, not horror. Technology.

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Hannes Moser24:32

Technology will help us in the future to bring new products, new processes into life and to really achieve our sustainability goals. So technology is key.

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Stefan Grafenhorst24:55

Family.

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Hannes Moser24:56

Family is where I'm feeling very much at ease.

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Stefan Grafenhorst24:59

Interviews.

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Hannes Moser25:01

Depends on the interviewer, Stefan. There are interviews I feel very much at ease in and that are interesting, like the one we're doing now. And there are interviews I don't like very much.

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Stefan Grafenhorst25:16

Hannes, one very last question. If you had a message to the world, what would that be?

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Hannes Moser25:24

Make it the Greiner world. The Greiner world. Make it the Greiner people. I would say, and I said it before: Do things consciously and question the way we do things each and every day.

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Stefan Grafenhorst25:43

Hannes, thanks for being with me here today, I very much enjoyed this. Thanks again also to you guys. I hope you have enjoyed our conversation here. There will be more interviews, so stay tuned. In the meantime, stay healthy, enjoy life, and thank you very much for being with us.