Meet Pornhub’s New Owner: Solomon Friedman of Ethical Capital Partners

I'll give you an example. Today I was speaking to senior law enforcement — a very, very senior law enforcement officer — about the work we're doing. And I told him: do you know what happens if you're in Canada and you put in the search term "underage" on our platform? Obviously we have a list — I think it's right now up to 15,000 banned words — and we use AI to detect different combinations where innocent words when put together could have nefarious meanings. But obviously "underage" is bad. So the default, and we talked about the law, complying with the law basics, is that nothing comes up. Of course, nothing's going to come up. But we go much farther than that. Not only does a warning come up when you put "underage" in Canada, we have partnered with an NGO, like we have done internationally — an organization called Talking for Change that is funded by the Canadian government and the Canadian Association for Mental Health. And you know what pops up when you search for "underage" or a similar banned keyword? It says: "Are you having sexual thoughts about underage people? Help is available. Click here now to be connected with a free therapist to talk about these harmful thoughts and urges. You don't need to suffer in silence. You can get help." So that's the work that Pornhub is doing. Forget banning that content — forget it, ensuring it is nowhere near our platform. But for people who are looking for that material because they suffer from a sexual disorder and could come to harm others, we want to give them the resources to help themselves. Just like these resources are provided, funded by the government, by mental health organizations, we see it as our responsibility to link them up with that. So when I told this to this law enforcement officer, his mind was blown. A porn site is linking to talkingforchange.ca? A porn site cares about getting people mental health assistance? You're damn right we do. Because when you talk about the responsibility that comes with having a global reach, we have an enormous responsibility. This is what we're doing today. It's not limited to that. It's what we're going to do tomorrow as we keep learning and adding partners who say, you know what, I'm willing to be on that site to be a resource. When I was talking about PornHub as a sexual wellness center, he said, did they have a what? I said, yeah, we've got a full-time psychologist who creates content, a sex therapist who talks about healthy sexuality and unhealthy issues, who produces regular programs. We have a guide to parents on how to block the site using the RTA, the Restricted to Adults feature.

We're much more than that. And we take our social responsibility really seriously. And I have no doubt that as that message continues to filter out, not just through us but for those who we have spoken to, it's only a matter of time before the real, the big stakeholders see what we're all about.

Let's talk about the other hand. If someone attempts to upload child sex abuse material, we report that instantly to NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Instantly gets reported with the user's information. That's someone trying to upload illegal material, that's someone committing a crime. When you search for underage, we don't want you to just skip to the next platform or go looking on the dark web.

Right. And you see the other end of it too — this person clearly needs help. Because I feel like most people when they see that someone's searching that up, like, oh, that person's a monster. But you guys, like, oh, this person needs help. Well, it's interesting, it's not our approach. Talking for Change in Canada, and we're also partnered with the Lucy Faithful Foundation in the United Kingdom — this is how mental health organizations have been advising governments to tackle this problem. If somebody's looking for that material, that's an early stage. Get them help and the resources that they need. And all we're doing is we're pointing them in that direction. We recognize that as a platform we have limited ability — someone could just close the tab and move on. But like I said, if one person follows up on that and gets therapy and that saves any person from misery, of course it's worth it. And when you take corporate social responsibility seriously, and you recognize we are having a massive impact on the world, you have a platform with this great reach, of course we're going to use that great reach to accomplish positive things.

Sure. And we can have a 12-hour marathon where I wind you through a very, very, very long list of similar features. There's just too many to count. I would recommend that people go to Pornhub and check out the transparency report. We publish it annually. It talks about the work that we're doing. One of the changes made in 2020 was to publish a transparency report. It talks about the content we take down, reports we make to NCMEC and other organizations, these resources. At the core, when our engineers are looking at problems, they're asking what's the right thing to do. So an example like Talking for Change or the Lucy Faithful Foundation in the United Kingdom — it's the right thing to do, so it's a no-brainer and we're going to do it.

Yeah, so the Restricted to Adults one is a really important one. And that's resources for parents. Kids should not be accessing this content.

So what RTA is — Restricted to Adults — is a guide for parents on PornHub as to how to block PornHub from devices used by underage users. We actually have step-by-step simple instructions. It takes two minutes and you can install it either at the router level or on the computer level and stop underage users, stop kids from accessing it. And you know, people say, well, that's contrary to the business model. Not for one second. We don't want one such visitor under the age of 18 on our platform, not for a second. We want every single one of them to be blocked. And we give parents the resources to do that. You tell someone that about Pornhub, they say, you were doing what? You're telling people how to block the site? Of course we are.

So that's another question then. The question is, beyond just PornHub, age verification is a problem that can't be solved by the adult industry alone. And what we're seeing now is a patchwork of states and jurisdictions where they're imposing different laws — verify age, provide ID to the website. PornHub does not want to be in the business of taking your ID to access content. There are serious privacy concerns with doing that. We're just not going to do that. If a jurisdiction required us to do that, we just wouldn't serve content in that jurisdiction. But what we want to do, and what's key to this, is to be a partner to the solution. So what's the solution? The solution is device-based age verification. Ninety-five plus percent of all internet traffic flows through three companies — Google, Apple, Microsoft. In other words, Android, iOS, and Windows. If all of those devices, either at the point of sale when you purchase them or by rolling out a software update, put a prompt on your phone right now that said, do you want to verify this as an adult device? And you say I do, because I like adult stuff. But it's not just porn — it's cannabis sales, it's alcohol, it's online gaming, it's mature video games. I want to be an adult. It's voting, maybe. So what you do is, just like being a verified uploader, same type process — verify with your ID, or if you're doing it at a point of sale when you're buying your device at Telus or Bell, you do it there. Verify that you're a real person with your device. That's easy to do and takes five minutes. And now your device is an adult device forever. It's the key. We will be the lock. And we think that every adult site should be locked. Just put that key in there, you're an adult, come on in, you're welcome. But it only happens if Google, Apple, and Microsoft step up and enable this feature. The software exists. What I'm describing is no more complex than anything that already exists. They just need the will to do it. And we are opening those discussions now because we want the adult internet to be safe for adults only.

Yeah, you know, we're at very early stages. I don't want to prejudice those discussions in any way because we respect those partners. But it's time to give a nudge, and I'm a bit of a nudge, so I give a nudge. And so are the other industry partners that we're working with. We think that they share our values. They share protecting children at their core. That is number one to us. And we will absolutely support any solution that is at the device level, so it actually protects children. Because if it's not at the device level, Pornhub blocks your traffic and requires verification, you're just going to go to someone who doesn't block it.

It has to be at the device level. That's the only way it's going to be effective. It is also the only way that it's going to safeguard user privacy. You can't have a hundred thousand websites holding everybody's personal identifying information. Now, Apple, Google, Microsoft — whether you like it or not, they already hold all your information. And they do it with secure certificates at the device level. They hold your banking information, they hold very sensitive information. So that's a relatively safe place for that data to reside. We don't want that data. We will not take that data. But it needs to happen in partnership. So you come back to ECP and the ECP concept. If adult is only looking inward and nobody wants to talk to adult, this collaboration will never happen. The rest of the internet will say, age verification, that's your porn problem. But of course it isn't. The adult internet, having a safe space for adults online, is a much bigger issue than just pornography. But when you have an entity like ECP — and we think we're the first of many who are going to emerge like this — who are proud and public, open and transparent about what they're doing, we can really engage with the rest of Big Tech. We are Big Tech, but we can engage with the rest of Big Tech. But it can't happen if you do it in the shadows. So this is step one.

We're coming to that table. And in the conversations, like I said, it's been a month — the conversations that we've had are very much about being at that table. And I think it's an exciting time to be doing what we're doing, when you're at the forefront of important change, which is the reason we're doing this. We're doing this because it's an extraordinary opportunity to do something that could have a massive, massive impact on a wide range of society's issues. We're at that table and it's only going to continue as the months go on.

Yeah, they're aware, but everyone has their own reasons for delaying this, for not doing it, for not wanting to step up. There obviously are issues — there's privacy, there's anonymity on the internet, different jurisdictions have different regulations about anonymity and privacy. They can be solved, but they can't be solved unless everybody's sitting at a table with a common goal. And that common goal needs to be protecting children.

Exactly. They might also need a little bit of a push in terms of legislation and regulation, which is a reason that it's important to us that we're collaborating with legislators and regulators to make rules that actually protect children, safeguard data privacy, and are actually effective between all these major companies.

Well, remember, asking for information from users is something they don't want to do more than they have to. Creating friction in people's online experiences is something that they don't want to do — to make it more difficult to access a resource. There's no question about that. But that time for that discussion has passed. Governments are passing laws around the world that are going to require them to respond. And I think companies can either get steamrolled over and forced into things, or actually create, like I said, a solution that centers child protection, data privacy, and is actually effective at keeping kids out of this content.

You know, I think like I said, we're having really productive, respectful conversations with not just other tech entities but other service providers. You know, I think about — once we announce our closing, I start getting calls from people at large law firms, large accounting firms saying, oh, are you looking for a new counsel for this or an accountant? Who would never have touched this in the past. Breaking stigma is really powerful. And you know, we're a month into this journey. I cannot even imagine what it's going to look like 12 months into this journey — how normal this is going to be, how boring this is going to be. And that's we as in Ethical Capital Partners.

Let's go this way. First of all, I don't think there is one turnaround. I think this is iterative. In other words, there are stages and steps to accomplish. We're seeing positive signs already, and we'll be announcing some of them shortly, and those will be evident of that success. But change, transformation takes time. We're not talking about a years-long project. I think that the momentum for this has been building. In other words, people want this. Individual users, internet users want this. Content creators want this. Like I said, people vote with their clicks and they voted. They want a platform, but they want one that is not just safe and legal and responsible, but one that is interacting with the rest of the internet — with the financial side of the internet, with the social side of the internet. So people aren't being banned or de-platformed from Instagram, from Twitter, just because they're adult content creators, even if they're not posting adult content on those platforms. These are serious issues that can happen when people look askance at this industry and try to ignore it. I think the thing about Ethical Capital Partners is that when you're out front and you're proud of the work you're doing, you can't be ignored. And we're actually seeing really positive engagement. So you ask, is it going to be years, is it going to be months? I think we're going to see steps that will demonstrate that mainstream acceptance, because it should be there.

Yeah, it's all checking out. You know, I'll say something interesting. As we announce this and I've been doing a lot of interviews and explaining in detail these processes, the reaction that I'm getting from people is, this is a no-brainer. I think when you look at a lot of software, hardware, tech practices that are at the center of your lives, they're all no-brainers, right? But they were all, until they were no-brainers, they were fantasies, imagination, nobody thought of them. It's like go back to cannabis. No, of course it's a — we're putting people in jail, we're putting people in jail in Canada for this, criminal record, we're deporting people, and you're like, it's a no-brainer. But 10 years ago it wasn't a no-brainer, it was go to jail. So I think it goes that way with societal change. And the reaction that you're having, as you just said — and this is like I said, it's the tip of the iceberg of the work that we're doing — it's a no-brainer. I have no doubt that that will continue to be the attitude, because this is obvious and it's a long time coming.

Well, martyrs die. And Solomon, you know, I'm part of a team — an extraordinary team of people who've played many roles in this. This is not a one-person operation by any measure. MindGeek itself is an extraordinary company that is doing the work that is allowing us to platform this truth. I'm proud of the work that I'm doing. It's an exciting challenge. And advocating for something you believe in, for me, has been my life's work. I've been a defense lawyer. I defend people where the public has the wrong idea — they have the facts that they got from Twitter, they have the facts they got from a news release, and then a year later we go to trial and they watch me, another counsel, cross-examine witnesses and tell the truth, and all of a sudden the story changes completely. When I'm making that final argument to the judge, it's a story that is unrecognizable from what they read in the media. So that's been my professional life — advocating for what I believe in. This is just an extension of that. So it's exciting to do that, it's good work.

Yeah. One of my other partners on this, Fatty Mansour, our managing partner, is also my law partner. And this is what we do. We have taken causes and individuals who have been vilified wrongly, who have been the subjects of misinformation. And then I'll give you an example — the two of us defended the OC Transpo bus driver who was charged with dangerous driving, who was Public Enemy Number One in Ottawa. People were like, this person was involved in this crash, killed people. And the vitriol, the hate mail that we received about that case. And then by the end of the trial, when we had stripped the Crown's case bare, when we had revealed the truth — you know what her acquittal was at the end of the day? It was a no-brainer. People were like, of course she should be acquitted. Once they heard the facts — they heard that she was guided off the road by lane markings that were improperly erased, that she had the sun in her eyes, that the ice in the gutter had never been cleared, the moment her wheel touched it she couldn't get out — that was the findings of fact. So when she got acquitted, it was almost underwhelming, because people were like, of course you just get acquitted. What do you mean? You're the same person a month ago, a year ago, who's tweeting I wish we had the death penalty, right? But when the truth comes out, the public, when they see that, they just go, it's a no-brainer. And we get to be on the vanguard of advancing that truth. And that's what we're doing here. And we're not alone. There are important stakeholders — from sex workers to employees to victim advocacy organizations to NGOs — who need to come into this conversation so we can actually communicate what they have and what they've been doing, what they've been experiencing using this platform that we have now. So it's exciting work and there's nowhere else I'd rather be.

Yeah, when it comes to work, I mean, I think our past experiences — they enrich our lives. I'm a person, I live with zero regrets. And even though my life might have twisted and turned and wound, and there was a time in my life I thought I was going to be an Orthodox rabbi teaching the Talmud in a yeshiva in Jerusalem for the rest of my life, it's not where it ended up. It's interesting though. Sometimes we look at past life decisions and you figure, where did I make the switch? Why did I go from A to B? So I think often, why am I not a rabbi today? The main reason — I loved a lot about it. I loved to study. In Orthodox Judaism, the rabbinical tradition is a very legal, very analytical one, and it really tickled my brain in the right ways. I love breaking down problems, sort of almost looking at them like chemistry, distilling elements and coming to subtle arguments. I remember saying to a rabbi of mine, you know, like this is splitting hairs. And the rabbi said, yeah, but even a hair has two sides. But the reason I moved on from that and went to law school was that I wasn't buying what I was selling, because there's a religious component to that, that's dogma and belief. And I realized that if I'm not buying what I'm selling, nobody else is going to buy it either. And that has informed my professional life as a defense lawyer. If I don't believe in the argument I'm making, I can't make it. And here in this very same role, if I don't believe in what I'm speaking for, what I'm advocating for and communicating for, it's going nowhere. And what makes this such an easy and natural fit — it doesn't matter what the message is — is that I firmly believe in the work that the team's doing. I've seen it from the inside, so it's easy. But that's something that is sort of a thread through my entire life.

Okay, so that's an interesting question. When I'm answering it, these aren't my answers — this is what I have learned from talking to sex workers. This is not my life experience. So if I can use this platform, some of their life experience, I'll do that. You speak to a sex worker and they say — you talk to an organization like Exodus Cry and Exodus Cry says, well, you wouldn't be doing this sex work if you weren't getting paid to do it. Real interesting. I don't know anybody who would be like, you know what, I wouldn't go to work at McDonald's if they didn't pay me. I'm being exploited. Or I wouldn't be a lawyer unless my clients paid me. Oh, I must be being exploited, right? So why does that view break down when it comes to sex work? That's the real question. Because of course, people do work in order to get money. That's just how capitalist society works. But why all of a sudden when it comes to sex work we say, well, I mean, you wouldn't do this for free, would you? The reason is that we have a patriarchal view, that's in some corners of our society, that says women can only use their sexuality as we have agreed upon, and if you're doing it in any other way, it must be exploitation. We completely take out the agency out of an individual making a free choice to say, this is what I want to do. Now, this conversation is more subtle than that, and I'm so blessed to have advisors who know this area so well. They say, for example, well, some people have different economic situations so they turn to sex work. People turn to working at McDonald's. People turn to other paths or streams of income. So you can do one of two things. You can say sex work bad, we will stamp it out. And I'll give you an example. I heard from a sex worker who, when Visa and Mastercard pulled the ability to process for individual content creators, she had to go to hands-on sex work. Think about that for a minute. She was doing online sex work, some webcam work as well as content creation — that is totally safe, right? In an environment where she's physically secure, where she controls the content — and she had to go into less safe areas of work. Now, there are lots of areas of work, not just sex, where there's more and less safe. It's safer to work in an office than to work in a mine. We recognize that there's degrees of safety in work. But far from Exodus Cry being her salvation, they put her in a far more precarious position by pushing this misinformation. And MindGeek, by not having the ownership who are standing up and platforming these voices, also are part of that problem, which is something we're very much trying to change. So I think that when you say sex work equals exploitation, you've instantly removed agency from millions of thinking, rational individuals who are making fundamentally free choices.

Yeah, so you know, we're here to provide the platform. Because we recognize that none of these policy issues can be debated in a vacuum. There needs to be a balance. You need to have trust and safety, you need to have data privacy, you need to have legal compliance. That takes a platform. I think one of the ways where all adult platforms have gone wrong is that when the content creator revolution said, I make content, I post it, I profit on it — Wicked model, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, the influencer generation, that's the model. Adult saw this and said, ooh, content, you're giving us content, let's gobble up all this content. And what was lost in between was a real pause — which has happened by the way now — where you say, yeah, this is content, but it's content like no other content, because it has the possibility to be misused, because the platforms have the possibility to be exploited. We need very different processes. So we circle all the way back to the discussion about verified uploader and the content uploading and the moderation — that has to exist when it comes to adult content. So that's the solution, that's what the platform provides. The platform recognizes that this area has unique challenges to it, but they can be met. And I think MindGeek and its properties, Pornhub etc., are proof that it can be met. It is being met every day. We have a platform that millions of visitors have faith in, hundreds of thousands of verified uploaders have faith in, that is working extremely well to balance child protection, intimate image security, data privacy, dignity, and fundamentally free expression, positive sex expression on behalf of sex workers. It's a difficult balance. And it's one that we need to continue to learn about. Once again, if you're looking inward, you're never going to learn and evolve. If you're only listening to one group of stakeholders, you're going to miss the boat. So you bring people together. We're going to continue to evolve because the internet's going to continue to evolve.

You know, I think a lot of it is informed by my professional experience. As a defense lawyer, we defend criminal cases, but all of them are different. One day I could be doing a dangerous driving case where I need to become an expert in technical collision reconstruction. The next day I'm doing an internet crimes case where I need to be an expert in computer forensics, or I need to be a DNA expert, or a fingerprint expert. I'm not any of those experts, but I recognize that the work I do is informed by so many different voices. When it came to Ethical Capital Partners, it's just natural — when I need help, when I see a problem that is outside my understanding, I have to turn to experts in order to address it. I do that, my partner Fatty Mansour, who was also my law partner — that's how we operate. So it's actually been a very smooth fit to do the same thing, but obviously on a much larger, much more global scale with a platform like MindGeek.

Until we tell the truth, until the narrative — let me expand on it. So I'll say this is another reason why this is very comfortable for me. I have a lot of experience — my partner Fatty does as well — in being the target of criticism. And what that does is it makes you develop a very thick skin. Because let's talk about our law careers for a second. When you fundamentally believe in what you're doing — so you believe that every individual is presumed innocent and has the constitutional right to a full, fair, and robust defense — and it doesn't matter, and then you'll read nasty tweets about you. I've read those tweets: oh, he's even worse than his client, he should be in the cell next to him. People have no fundamental understanding of our justice system. It's water off the duck's back. And because you believe in what you're doing, you believe in the mission, you believe in the system, you believe in your professional and ethical responsibilities — it's no different here. There are those people who think, like I said, they're fundamental enemies of sex work, they're fundamental enemies of people's right to self-determination. They will always have nasty things to say about us. And I didn't care when I was a criminal defense lawyer doing that full-time. I'm interested in criticism, I'm interested in having a reasoned discussion, in listening to different points of view. But the nastiness and the vitriol — I don't even hear it anymore. And I think that's what allows us to do this work.

Yeah, well, that's a good question. And it's the same question as, why are you — you know, my partners, why am I here, why are we doing this? We all come from very successful professional backgrounds. My partner Derek Ogden retired from the RCMP as Chief Superintendent. The man ran national policing for the country — every drug operation, undercover, and witness protection op ran through his office. He supervised four thousand officers, four thousand employees across the country. He had a very successful career. He doesn't need this. We come from backgrounds where we've achieved in our careers, as have our partners. We're doing this because number one, we believe in it. Number two, it's an extraordinary challenge. I don't want to live a life where I did only easy things. I don't want to live a life where I didn't swing big. And this is really an example of doing that. You have a problem, you have what I think has been a debate that's been fueled by misinformation where the public perception is so out of whack with reality. This is one that we want to address, and that gives us personal satisfaction. It gives you satisfaction when I'm listening to sex workers and they're talking about their concerns and they say, where has Ethical Capital Partners, where's an organization like this been for the past decade? Where has this approach been? And I can't answer for the past, I wasn't there. But I don't look at this jealously in the sense that I don't want to be the last mainstream entry into adult — I want to be the first. I want there to be so many following us, all those it's-a-no-brainer people. Get out there and invest in this industry. Bring your tech skills, bring your social skills, your legal skills, your law enforcement background. Do exactly what we're doing. I welcome it. This is a space that's too important to care about competition. Of course we want to have the best business, the most visitors — that's irrelevant to the social side of it. People need to enter this space. And if we give another actor, another entity the courage to do that, fabulous. I see that as a real accomplishment for our group.

Money is not a big driver for me, it's not a big driver for my partners. Making real change and accomplishing something extraordinary — what price do you put on that?

Well, I'll tell you this — it started from the beginning. When I was in law school, I loved criminal defense law. To me it was the most interesting thing that I could be doing. I thought it was fascinating. I love the real people, the stories, the fact you can have an impact on someone's life. But I knew it wasn't for me. I knew that real success was being a fancy lawyer at a big law firm doing commercial transactions and making real money. That's success. And that lie got drilled into me pretty hard in law school. And it's funny, when I teach now as an adjunct professor at law school, I try to debunk that, and I think there are a lot of other professors doing a great job of debunking it. But I bought it. I was sure — I love criminal law, but it's not a grown-up job, right? It's not where the money is, the real success. Real success is on Bay Street in the big firms. And then I was very lucky to be selected to clerk at the Supreme Court of Canada. And the judge who I clerked for, Justice Fish, is all criminal law — that's his background, it's his passion, he's made enormous contributions to criminal law. And as I get ready to leave and I'm trying to figure out what to do next, I realize that it'll only be criminal law for me. I don't care if I'll make any money doing it. I don't care if it's success. I don't care if it's prestige. I don't care what it is. It's the only thing I'm interested in doing. And I think that when you let your passion and interest lead, money and success will follow. But if you chase money and success, you're not going to go anywhere and you're not going to be very happy about it. I think of all my friends — 90% of the ones who went chasing the big firm dream were gone in five or six years. If you put money and success first, that's not what's gonna happen. You put the work first. You find something that's passionate, that creates real meaning for you, and you put everything you have into the work. Forget about the outcome — we can't control outcomes, we control inputs. You put your input to the work, you will have success. But you got to focus on that work. And it's the same thing here. So that's something I've been doing for my whole career. And I'm very lucky that I had the experience I had that led me to criminal law, that led me to something that I'm passionate about — helping somebody out of the most difficult situation of their life, helping them correct the biggest mistake of their life. It's an honor to do that and it's something that I found great meaning in. And sure, success followed, because when you believe in what you're doing, success follows.

I said the biggest challenge so far, because we're just getting started. And I think what we're doing in this industry, like I said, it's going to create a real ripple effect to others. So this is the challenge, it's the one in front of us. It's an exciting one. I think the work that we're doing is extraordinarily important. But it's the first step.

Yeah, so when there's financial discrimination, when Visa and Mastercard won't serve certain parts of the platform — it's not all parts, it's certain parts. But for example, the PornHub model profiles, that's a problem. That is not an insurmountable problem. But at the same time, one of the things that I really respect about PornHub is that they allow linking to other platforms. They respect their content creators enough. Take a look at like what Twitter has done recently with restricting Substack — they see a competitor, they say don't link out to Substack, you're not allowed to do that. That's not how we operate. We respect our content creators. As long as the links are going to legal platforms, that's just fine. But what we will do, and I have no doubt that it is going to happen in short order, is have platforms where that monetization can be regular. It's not irregular, it's not suffering from, oh well, Visa shut down this day, Mastercard shut down that day. It'll be regular and steady. But it means repairing those relationships. That's the solution.

We're not subtle people. And if we set a standard for ourselves, then we have to live up to it. So we could have chose a fun, cool tech name that doesn't mean anything, that hides what we do, that hides what our values are, and then we would have to be like, but we're also ethical and we're doing it ethically. Here we say, let's put the challenge out up front. People can judge us not just on what we say, not just on our work, but how we identify. So that is how we identify. It's at the core of what we do — that we are guided by certain values that do not change, that are not subject to debate. So when you lead with that in your name, you set expectations. There's no question about it. But it means that you've got to live up to them.

Exactly. And it's because our values guide everything we do. They guide our investing decisions, they guide operational choices, they guide investment strategy. They're at the heart of what we do.

Why do we have — we have our daily call, and maybe we'll just incorporate that into the next one.

Yeah, there's no hiding from it. I mean, everywhere you look you just see the word ethical. I put a little business card, you see it. It focuses us, it focuses others. But it means that we have high aspirations. And obviously, when it comes to ethics, if they're at the center of what you do, you have to be able to justify that. It means that we want people to call us on that and say, how is this consistent with your values? And we can then reconsider and say, you know what, I didn't know that perspective, let's hear that perspective, give me that information. Part of being ethical is being open-minded, is being open to criticism. But really fundamentally, leading with your values. So it's not a one-day-only project. We will always be Ethical Capital Partners.