Good evening everyone and welcome to this unprecedented format on BFM Business. I am with Denis Ferrand, general director of RCO. Good evening. So, thank you Denis for taking the initiative of this unprecedented format. Six students, two CEOs of C40 who will dialogue because that's the goal, to build bridges.
Exactly. Rexode is the Institute for Economic Analysis for companies, but it is also an actor in the economic policy debate. And precisely, we are going to talk about bridges, perhaps walkways, but these are two worlds we want to bring together: the world of business leaders and those shaping economic understanding through their studies. We have gathered a panel of six students to exchange with two heads of large companies.
So, it's started with us tonight Patrick Pouyanné, CEO of Total Energies, French multi-energy giant present in 120 countries. In front of you, Benoît Basin, CEO of Saint-Gobain, world leader in sustainable construction. You have around you six students who worked this afternoon, repeated their questions, and are a bit stressed, but maybe you are too. They will challenge you, and you can ask them questions as well. I start my round table with Sopia. Sopia, a master's student in economic and international studies at Paris 8, who loves photography and hiking, and just returned from a solo trip to Japan. Did it go well?
It went very well. Thank you very much. Indeed, photography and travel are passions that fuel my curiosity.
Next to you is Martin, a student at Polytechnique who plays football, tennis, loves cinema, and has a music group. I learned Patrick, it will interest you, that at Polytechnique they also do karting. He manages the karting association, showing how varied the education is there.
Yes, we resumed the karting association. So, we have fun and there's an event, a new race on May 8. You are invited if you want to come.
Next to you, Patrick Pouyanné, is Sidoni, a student in preparatory classes for grandes écoles in Angers. Sidoni, a fan of Oscar Wilde, loves reading, and is deeply into math—never stopping if an exercise isn't finished.
That's right. Mathematics have a way of revealing my determination to finish something once started. And girls who love math—we need them a lot.
You have a future, that's good.
Next to you is Hugo, a master's student in development economics at Université Grenoble Alpes. He likes philosophy, travel, trout fishing, and has played the trumpet for over 12 years.
More than 12 years. Yes, thank you very much. Good evening. Simple things, music, nature, a fishing rod—happiness.
Next to you is Mariola, a journalism student in Toulouse who likes football and describes herself as cheeky, tenacious, and risk-loving.
Yes, indeed, and sometimes that can create beautiful opportunities.
So you sent an email directly to Patrick Pouyanné.
Yes, it's true I wrote to you Mr. Pouyanné in January for the chance.
I read my emails and do something with them—I forwarded it saying good idea, she wants to interview me, invite her to the panel. So writing to the CEO works.
I'm not telling all students in France to write to me because then it starts.
Interested in talents and young talents.
Next to you, Benoît Basin, is Oscar from ENS who has worked with the council of economic analysis on public debt—a promising field.
Absolutely, and I think that will save me from unemployment.
You are quite right. Here are our six students and two CEOs. Are you ready? We'll talk about supply policy—it needs defending as it's been partly attacked.
Yes, we're in a confusing moment with discordance: we talk only of sovereignty—energy, defense, food, digital—yet there's a trial against supply policy that allegedly failed. But sovereignty and supply policy are two sides of the same coin. We need production and investment responses to reclaim sovereignty spaces at the heart of concerns.
Sovereignty will be our first theme.
Quite. Our first theme, focusing on energy sovereignty, immediately questioned, plus defense issues and innovation—sovereignty is built through innovation. We have themes to build, infinitely referring to the economy's capacity to deliver production.
Sovereignty, innovation, sharing value added—our three themes. Rules: we can interrupt, answer questions not directly posed to us, and are free in dialogues. Let's go.
We start with sovereignty, first subject with Mariola. Mariola begins with a question on hydrocarbons, I think for Patrick Pouyanné.
Good morning Mr. Pouyanné. You often say you invest in hydrocarbons due to high demand, but youth want less hydrocarbons and are climate-sensitive. How will Total Energies prepare for the ecological transition in 30-40 years?
It's not about preparation—we have an innovative strategy since 2020, the only oil manager to develop it. We became Total Energies not for greenwashing but because we must produce energy you need. Right now, you're happy I produce oil for gasoline, diesel, kerosene—demand reality. Yet, we invest 25-30% in electricity and renewables. Energy transition is happening; electrification is inevitable. We continue oil and gas as today's 80% energy mix, but invest heavily in electricity—we'll be top 10 global electricians by 2030. Today, 10% of our energy is electrons, up from zero in 2020 with 25 billion acquisitions. Our portfolio is nearly 35 GW. This responds to client demand—transition is complex, but we're committed, reducing emissions even in fossil production, e.g., LNG plants dividing emissions by 10. Youth say it's not fast enough, but society doesn't move faster. Transition must be sustainable, reliable, affordable. Energy is essential; if too expensive, issues arise. We seek balance—we became Total Energies to be a world-class electrician, advancing proudly.
Do you have a date when renewable investments will surpass fossil?
No date today—probably my successor. I'll bring the company to 2030 with 20% electricity. Investing 25% in renewables, but must continue oil/gas investment—fields decline naturally. Like Shadoks, we fight to maintain production. The current crisis accelerates domestic, renewable, nuclear energies. Like France in 1973 with nuclear, we'll see a similar response, likely renewables. Good for us—we're ready to embark in all countries.
Before Sopia's question, Benoît Basin—when Patrick Pouyanné talks about client electrification, he means you. Inevitable electrification at your company—what does it look like?
Besides, I sell a lot to Benoît—he's a good client.
Yes, we have electricity purchase agreements, e.g., in Texas on solar fields. It's crucial for our decarbonization—committed to carbon neutrality by 2050 as sustainable construction leader. We can bring energy sobriety to buildings—France spends 45% of energy in buildings, reducible by 20-40%. Energy savings are a decarbonization source. We must be exemplary—reduced CO2 emissions by 35%. Projects involve changing materials and energy sources: gas to electric. We built the world's first two electric gypsum board plants in Norway and Canada, leveraging cheap hydroelectricity. France has nuclear—a formidable asset if abundant, affordable, with visibility. Factories need stable energy for 20-50 years. In Europe, we'll electrify in Spain before France due to cheaper electricity. The trajectory is possible, but operating cost is key—I can't make an electric factory 20-30% more expensive than gas competitors. Electricity cost is major for decarbonizing energy-intensive industries.
Yes, energy cost is a major competitiveness factor with remarkable differentials. France and Europe have similar prices; US/France advantage. Today, French wholesale is 55 €/kWh, Germany 80-90—we have a 25 € advantage from nuclear and renewables. People complain about overcapacity investments, but that's why France absorbs the crisis—abundance of production capacity. We must invest in surpluses to control prices. France has an advantage; Spain is different. Energy sobriety is key—we must not obscure price signals when energy is expensive.
No, he protects himself—when too expensive, consumes less. They all come to Total stations because we're too low—that's the problem.
Sopia's question: Mr. Basin, Saint-Gobain is energy-intensive in high-cost Europe. How justify staying anchored? What to those thinking of leaving in France's reindustrialization?
Vast question—history matters: Saint-Gobain created 360+ years ago, French by birth, European by vocation, global by will. Investment choices allocate capital to growth/profitability; Europe's share dropped from 60% to half as we doubled in North America/Asia. In Europe, energy cost is 2-3x higher. Our response: products that don't travel to avoid international competition, or high innovation with 3-10 year advantages. Dynamics are unfavorable—no European economic growth, unlike India's demographic drive. We put 80% of growth investments outside Europe. France's attractiveness: competitive electricity, stable framework in labor cost, taxation, education, infrastructure, energy. Supply policy recently helped, but recent signals are negative—stopped charge cuts, added taxation. We need innovation focus—digital, AI—not just manufacturing. Labor cost is critical; research tax credit compensates high salaries. Proposal: relaunch supply policy by cutting charges and reducing aids, keeping engineers. French engineers are envied; they leave for US capital access. Labor must be more remunerative—capital and labor costs are key issues.
Denis, on labor cost—Patrick Pouyanné said too many aids compensate high cost. Is that our subject?
Exactly, with difficulty: average labor cost improved with supply policy, reducing unfavorable gap. But charge reductions concentrated on low qualifications for job quantity, financed by high levies on high salaries. This creates compensation issues. We reduced the gap, even inverted with Germany. The issue is Portuguese engineers cost half as much. We must acknowledge competitiveness gaps within Europe—energy is favorable, but labor and capital costs matter more. French social system is intact, but reality requires attention.
