About Marjan Rintel
Marjan Rintel, CEO of KLM, has been discussing the airline's sustainability strategy, financial stability, and regulatory challenges. In June 2025, she stated that KLM is investing billions in a new fleet, buying 16% sustainable aviation fuel (SAF), and using AI to reduce catering waste by 60%. She said the industry needs to work with governments and the EU to increase SAF supply at reasonable prices. In November 2024, she said KLM is focusing on operational and financial health to enable continued investment, and that the airline expects new Airbus 321 aircraft to contribute to sustainability and noise reduction targets.
Rintel has also addressed potential political and legal risks. In January 2025, she expressed concern that if the Dutch government reduces flight slots at Schiphol, the United States under President Donald Trump could retaliate by limiting KLM's landing rights, saying "it would be a shame if we could no longer fly to New York." In April 2024, she argued that "shrinkage is not the goal" and that reducing flights would simply shift traffic to airports in Brussels or Frankfurt, rather than achieving actual emissions reductions. She has emphasized that KLM's plan for quieter, cleaner aircraft meets noise reduction targets, and that legal disputes over Schiphol's nature permits undermine legal protection for local residents.
Source: AI-verified profile updated from Marjan Rintel's recent appearances.
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Transcript (4232 segments)
H
Host0:24
Hello everyone, dear passengers, and welcome to Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport.
Our guest today has traveled by land and by air and chose the skies. 12 years at KLM, 14 years at the NS, of which two as President Director, to only go back to KLM in 2022 as CEO. Her main challenge at the NS after COVID was to expand, but at KLM she's likely to shrink, or at least that's what the Dutch government says. What will Marjan Rintel do, and what stands in KLM's future? That's a great question. Fly responsibly, or so goes their sustainable slogan, covering everything from recycling coffee pads to overhauling their entire fleet. Marjan is here to talk about the upsides and the caveats of the green transition. So let's get back to university to get ready for takeoff.
Hello everyone and welcome to Room for Discussion, second lustrum interview. I'm Philip and I'll be your interviewer for today. As you saw in the video, we have a lot of topics to discuss today, so without further ado, can we have a warm welcome for our guest of today, CEO of KLM, Marjan Rintel.
H
Host2:14
So welcome to Room for Discussion, Marjan. You spent your career mostly at two places. You started off in the same company you work for now, KLM, and then you switched to the NS and became President Director there in 2020 during the COVID pandemic. You now came back to KLM in 2022 as CEO, and it's fair to say there's some turbulence going on right now in KLM. Do you believe you thrive in environments of uncertainty?
M
Marjan Rintel2:43
Yes. As an airline, we are used to flying in turbulent times. That's what we do. You have to reinvent yourself every decade, every year. That's what we do, and that's why we embrace the sustainability targets. That's why you mentioned it, and we have a full initiative ahead.
H
Host3:22
Before we dive into the turbulence that KLM's facing, as you described, how would you describe KLM's relationship with Dutch society?
M
Marjan Rintel3:31
It's a dilemma today. What we see today is a lot of customers come back. People want to fly, that's Dutch people and international people as well. At the same time, we need to take the sustainability issues seriously. So the government said we need to reduce noise with 15%. We embrace that, so we need to reduce noise, and we have a lot of initiatives around this.
H
Host4:01
How would you describe your relationship with the Dutch government instead?
M
Marjan Rintel4:07
It's important, of course, the relations with the Dutch government. They are a shareholder on one side, and on the other hand, we see each other and speak to each other frequently, also around how we at least reach the targets set by the Dutch government.
H
Host4:25
One of the things you already mentioned is the plans for the shrinkage of Schiphol. The plans there are to reduce the amount of flight movements to 440,000 a year compared to 500,000 now, but this plan was backtracked after a number of airlines, including KLM, sued the state, and then also after pressure from the European Commission and the United States. Why was it important for you to challenge these plans?
M
Marjan Rintel4:49
You have two different things. First, it's not about reduction of movements, it's reduction of noise and reduction of CO2. That's the objective we need to reach, working together. What the Dutch government proposed was with an intermediate measure already reduce the movements, and what we said is you need a balanced approach. It's quite complicated because the balanced approach is European regulation and how you can change things around the environment around the airport. We proposed the balanced approach: how to reach the 15% noise reduction. We buy new fleet, six billion. We buy a lot of sustainable aviation fuel. We want to use our silent aircraft during the night. So we proposed a lot of things which we can do all together to reduce the noise targets.
H
Host5:51
Are you proposing all of these alternative measures because you think that shrinking Schiphol would threaten your market?
M
Marjan Rintel5:59
Let's talk about the target. The target is noise reduction, and there are a lot of different ways to reach that noise reduction. We showed that in what we introduced as more cleaner, more efficient to reach this target.
H
Host6:18
One way that could also be used to reach these goals is through the introduction of a distance-dependent aviation tax. Two weeks ago, journalist from Follow the Money revealed that you threatened to sue a Schiphol executive if a report that outlined the projections of this distance-dependent aviation tax, but also the shrinkage plans into the future and how that would impact those goals. Why would you want to keep that information from the public?
M
Marjan Rintel6:48
You ask a lot of different things. Let me try to answer them one by one. There are a lot of balloons in the sky, and it's difficult if you run a company to handle that. We need, and that's what we try to do with a lot of other parties, a strategy, a vision: what do we want the airline industry to be in the Netherlands? What do we want the airport to be in the Netherlands? Today it's about: do we want long-haul tax or not? Do we want transfer tax or not? Do we want to open up Lelystad yes or not? Do we want flight reduction yes or not? There are a lot of different initiatives not coming together in a vision and a strategy. It's very difficult to run a business with all kinds of initiatives that are half the story. Let's create together with the government, with all the stakeholders, at least a strategy and a vision: where do we want to be in 2030, 50 years time? And then let's invest. Let's invest in sustainable aviation fuel, let's invest in ways to become more sustainable, and at the same time connect the Netherlands with the world.
H
Host8:11
Your vision basically entails a lot of investment, a lot of measures that KLM can do, but eventually it will be up to the government or to Schiphol to choose from either the shrinkage we've been talking about or perhaps the aviation tax mentioned before. In case one of these two or both were to be implemented, what are you most worried about?
M
Marjan Rintel8:33
First of all, we need to follow the balanced approach, and the outcome of the balanced approach will show what we're going to do. Hopefully a new government will at least try with all the stakeholders, including Schiphol and including the airlines, to define the vision and the strategy looking forward. If you look at the threats, if you look at the negative side, if we talk about all these initiatives, it's not helping sustainability. It's shifting the problem to Brussels or it's shifting the problems to Frankfurt, and it's not helping anyone. There's a very nice movie. I'm not sure you did some research before, I'm not sure if you looked at the YouTube movie we have of the business model we have. If we don't have the hub and spoke system today with 60-50% transfer, there will not be an airline in the Netherlands. There will not be connections, there will not be international students. It's not possible. If you fly to New York, let's say for 100 customers, 90 customers are coming from Sweden, United Kingdom, all different places, and that's the reason why we can fly to New York.
H
Host10:01
Do you think the institutions have been an obstacle to you in achieving your vision rather than a helper?
M
Marjan Rintel10:09
By shifting the problem to other countries, it's not helping anyone. We have the connections to the rest of the world. It's important for our welfare. We need to earn each euro. It's important for all the businesses who want to invest, and that's a big debate the last couple of days and weeks regarding Ballast Nedam, regarding ASML. Companies want to invest in the Netherlands, but when investing here, you want to have connections as well.
H
Host10:43
There's always the discussion whether a country as small as the Netherlands really needs an airline as big as KLM, but you're saying that we need to have it simply to create a more attractive business climate?
M
Marjan Rintel10:55
You want to have an attractive business climate as well. Then you need to have an airline, then you need to have the connections. People want to discover the world, people want to develop themselves. Look around, there are people coming here from all over the world.
H
Host11:13
It looks as if you're a bit backed into a corner here because despite your attractive propositions, you are still mostly controlled by Schiphol, which eventually would maybe limit the amount of flight movements that you're allowed to make. Schiphol is owned by the Dutch government and by the municipality of Amsterdam, and the municipality of Amsterdam has even said that going forth they will position themselves as an activist shareholder, trying to propose a shrinkage of even more than the 440,000 flight movements a year. Do you think that this is a battle that you can win?
M
Marjan Rintel11:44
It's a dilemma, and of course it's a dilemma today. It's 2 to 3% CO2 which we need to solve within the airline industry, and it's important we solve it and we need to accelerate it. We need to accelerate all possibilities to become more sustainable each day. If we don't do anything, it will be 20% in the next decade. The industry is growing. Other industries are more easy to decarbonize, so we need to do everything we can. By claiming and what people do by not having an airline within the Netherlands, they don't say it, but reduction of movements is not solving anything. It's shifting the problem. For me, it's important: why don't we focus on innovation? Why don't we focus on sustainable aviation fuel? Did you look what happened in the United States? They invest a lot in sustainable aviation fuel. We should do the same in Europe. If you do so, it's 75% reduction of CO2.
H
Host13:03
Would you want the government to help you more with this?
M
Marjan Rintel13:06
Of course we need the government to work with us and to help us, but not only in the Netherlands. It's all about Europe. We should do this together from a European point of view.
H
Host13:17
We've really understood how KLM is important to the people of the Netherlands, but it's also important to the economy of the Netherlands. Schiphol's economic activity brings 4 to 8 billion euros to the Dutch economy each year, and a larger part of that comes from KLM. Do you believe that you're so important to the economy and to the society that the government really doesn't have so much leverage on you?
M
Marjan Rintel13:41
I'm not so sure. Let me reframe it. We are part of the Netherlands. We are the home carrier of the Netherlands. A lot of people are traveling with KLM, and we should take responsibility for the 2 to 3% part of the CO2. We need to do everything we can to reduce it. That's our responsibility within the Netherlands, and we're willing to take that. We have really ambitious plans to at least reach the targets in 2030 and 2050. We did sign the SBTi targets, and we are planning to reach them.
H
Host14:23
So it's more about a cooperation, if I'm understood correctly. But obviously KLM has its commercial interest and the Dutch government has its priorities. Where's the line drawn between the government's ideas and your vision?
M
Marjan Rintel14:38
At least the common line is also for the government that we need a business climate in the Netherlands and that we need a home carrier, KLM, in the Netherlands. I think that's not the debate. The debate is how to reduce noise reduction. As a business, I say I need to earn money before I can invest. We invest billions and billions in new fleet. We ordered the Airbus A350 last year. We ordered new freight planes, the Airbus A350 as well. We have a new fleet coming in this summer, the A321. If you compare a 747 plane with an Airbus A350, it's 50% noise reduction and 40% CO2 reduction.
H
Host15:30
So it's ultimately up to you how you're going to go forward in achieving this?
M
Marjan Rintel15:34
Yes, but investing in new fleet, investing in sustainable aviation fuel. Do you know how much sustainable aviation fuel we buy as a group, KLM, in the world? It's 70% of the available supply. That's what we buy today. Sustainable aviation fuel is three to four times more expensive.
H
Host16:04
If I'm not mistaken, out of the total fuel mix that you use, it only makes a mere percentage as of now.
M
Marjan Rintel16:10
Today it's still small, but we need to grow until 10% in 2030, and we need supply for this.
H
Host16:17
Do you also lobby the government to develop that?
M
Marjan Rintel16:22
Exactly. We do a lot of things. For example, we talk with corporates. Corporates should buy sustainable aviation fuel. It helps. Of course, we have contracts with Neste and with DG Fuels. If you have contracts, they are willing to supply more, but we need also customers to buy sustainable aviation fuel. Today, if you buy a ticket, you can buy sustainable aviation fuel and help improve the system.
H
Host16:56
Where are the biggest limitations in the supply chain now? Because you say you buy 70% of the available supply today.
M
Marjan Rintel17:02
It's the supply. We're very critical on the sustainable aviation fuel. Today it's made of cooking oil out of China, and there's only so much cooking oil as you can imagine. So we need more production of sustainable aviation fuel, and at the end, synthetic sustainable aviation fuel to be invented. That needs to be there hopefully in a couple of years.
H
Host17:31
I think this is a good time to see if our audience has any questions. Yes, we can go right here, the person in the green t-shirt.
A
Audience Member17:47
Hi. So on August 26, KLM will launch its inaugural flight on the A321neo, which I'm currently going to attend. My question for you is: why did KLM choose the Airbus single-aisle aircraft as its new revolution compared to competing manufacturers? Why did you pick the Airbus A320 or the Airbus A350?
M
Marjan Rintel18:11
It's the best airplane today. The A320 is the best aircraft today. We have some geopolitical issues, as you know. For us, it's impossible to fly over Russia. So if we want to go to Asia, it takes two hours more and we need four cockpit crew, so it's more expensive as well. For us, long range is important, and if you compare the Airbus to the Boeing, the Airbus is more feasible for KLM at this point in time.
H
Host18:52
Any other questions? Yes, the man with the glasses.
A
Audience Member19:01
Thank you. I want to maybe switch the topic a little bit. I want to ask about the rumor takeover of TAP Portugal by Air France-KLM. If it's true, I want to ask maybe broader: is SkyTeam trying to broaden its horizon to maybe take over a few other airlines? Because after the takeover or the investment by Air France-KLM in SAS, that's sort of what it looks like. I don't know how much you can say, but maybe know what the vision is there.
M
Marjan Rintel19:28
Consolidation is important for us. Consolidation in the market is important, otherwise you will be marginalized. We first started with SAS, 99%, and hopefully in a couple of years, with all the improvements needed from the EU, it will be another daughter of the group. Today we have three airlines: Air France, KLM, Transavia. Then hopefully we can include SAS. And as you all know, we are very much interested in TAP, but the Portuguese government needs to decide first what they will do, and if they will go for privatizing TAP, we will be there.
H
Host20:22
I think we have time for one more audience question. Let's see, I think here at the front.
A
Audience Member20:33
I just wonder with the questions regarding the A350 series airplanes. I haven't seen the news that KLM actually ordered like 40 or 50 A350s with Airbus. I just wonder, for instance, recently for airlines like Qatar, they actually set up just to reframe those business class seats to Q-Suite. I noticed that the main purpose of KLM purchasing those A350s is to replace those old 737-300 and 200ERs and A330s. I just wonder if those new A350s will arrange more business classes or just they will still be in the same plane as the 777 before, with more economy seats?
M
Marjan Rintel21:38
You're really an expert. Which year of study are you in? Great audience here. To finish quickly: the difficult for us is of course the level playing field. That's also part you didn't mention, but level playing field is important for us. That's why it's so important to agree on a lot of topics within Europe. It's very difficult for us to compete with airlines like Qatar, like Emirates, like Turkish. They have a lot of money and different customers. So we don't have first class. We will never go to first class. Our business is offering a business class. We introduced a new class, Premium Comfort, very highly recommended and appreciated. Small commercial: Economy Comfort and Economy. If you look at the business class, we changed our business class to direct aisle, one-to-one seats, full flat, and that's what we are going to do in the Airbus A350 as well. That's the market in Europe and that's the market from the Dutch perspective.
H
Host23:10
We wanted to take some time to also look back at your previous career. You started off at KLM, then you went to NS, and after 14 years there you went back to KLM. If you look at KLM and NS, they're not necessarily direct competitors, but if you look at the sustainability rise, the train and the plane are definitely in quite a battle. In Dutch, there's this lovely word 'vliegschaamte', shame of flying. What do you think, your personal opinion? You've chosen sides here where you eventually ended up at KLM again. What do you think that says about your opinion on this debate between the train and the plane?
M
Marjan Rintel23:50
I think the train and plane need to work together. That's what I said when I was working at NS, that's what I'm saying working for KLM. We promised from the NS perspective but also from the KLM perspective that if you can go by train within the 600-700 kilometers, you need to do it. But look at the trains today. If you want to go to Berlin, it will take you 6 hours and 40 minutes. If we invest in some infrastructure, you can reach Berlin in 4 hours. That's important. We want to offer our customers, for example, the train from Brussels or Paris and then transferring through other destinations like the United States, New York. But then the train needs to stop at Schiphol, so you need capacity at Schiphol, you need infrastructure at Schiphol to connect train and plane. There's a big project going on within KLM pushing to get things done. We buy a lot of tickets ourselves for our customers. If they arrive at Schiphol, they can go by train to Paris, they can go by train to Brussels. But still we need more and more connections. If you want to go by train from Brussels to New York, there's no train on Saturday and Sunday in the morning early. So we need to improve the train system, we need to improve the connections, and we need to improve working together. But the first priority is investments in infrastructure.
H
Host25:34
Are you then in talks with your successor at the NS on how to implement this?
M
Marjan Rintel25:39
Of course. We have a working group: NS, Eurostar, Schiphol, the Dutch government, and KLM, on how to improve and accelerate.
H
Host25:49
These developments are part of your climate action plan. In that plan, you state that you will reduce your emissions by 30% per passenger kilometer by 2030. These goals are largely based on new technologies, renewing your fleet, also flying on hydrogen. These are ambitious measures, and there are some external studies that are saying that you will not reach these goals with your current policy, one by for example the Breda University of Applied Sciences. Are you betting too much on technologies that don't exist yet?
M
Marjan Rintel26:19
First of all, there's no proof the other way around as well. You all work at the UN University, you all work on innovation. We need to accelerate the innovation, but we cannot predict the future. But if you look at all the developments today, there is already sustainable aviation fuel, yes based on cooking oil, but they're building hundreds and hundreds of facilities in the United States already. They put millions and billions in the development of sustainable aviation fuel and new fleets. I did fly myself in an electrical plane for two persons. We have our own Flight Academy and we will buy, and we already committed to buy electrical planes if they are there. Today it's only for two persons, it's not enough for training, but it's already there. There are a lot of companies investing in it already, so I believe it will be the future.
H
Host27:27
When do you think this technological development of electrical planes will reach such a level that it can replace your current capacity?
M
Marjan Rintel27:36
They still say 60 to 70-80 passengers around 2030 will be there. That's still difficult for us because it's not only about the amount of passengers, but also is it for two, three, or 400 kilometers? From a Dutch perspective, I say go by train. You first need to go by train. But if you want to reach the United Kingdom, it can be done electrically.
H
Host28:07
What is your contingency plan if these technologies actually will not exist by 2030 and you won't be able to use them to reduce your CO2 emissions?
M
Marjan Rintel28:16
First of all, look at the investments we do in the new fleet. The developments are here today. Look at what we do on sustainable aviation fuel. We buy 70% already today, and our commitment is 10% sustainable aviation fuel by 2030. We already bought 5% today with the available suppliers. So we're scaling up day by day.
H
Host28:46
So for you, it's more of a certainty than a bet on future technologies?
M
Marjan Rintel28:49
We need to do everything we can, and that's what we do. We make big steps and we take small steps. For what can we do ourselves, we spend a lot of time and money on AI. We already reduced waste on board with 50%, and that's also 50% weight. Is it enough? No, it's not enough today. Do we need to accelerate? Yes, we need to accelerate. Do we have all the solutions in place already? Not yet. That's the dilemma, and we need to work together to find the solutions.
H
Host29:30
So you think you're doing everything you can right now for your current fleet?
M
Marjan Rintel29:36
We do everything we can, and we need to do more each day by working together. We need more pressure as well. We will start a new initiative soon to work more together also within Europe with the full system in place. You need the suppliers, you need the energy players, you need the investors, you need the airlines, you need the airports, all working together with the European Commission to accelerate but also invest in all possible solutions.
H
Host30:08
The aviation industry is not really included in national emissions, mostly because of its cross-border nature. When we think about climate plans, we think...
H
Host30:22
Mostly of the Paris Accord, do you think this is a good justification for you not to be in that plan?
M
Marjan Rintel30:29
Not in which? The Paris Accord? No, we did sign the SBTi targets and they are part of that plan, so we did commit to it. The question is, are we going to reach the targets and do we do everything we can? Yes, we do, and it's not enough.
H
Host30:52
A bit of a different example. Another Dutch company, Shell, was sued by Milieudefensie because of their negligence to combat their emissions efficiently. Milieudefensie actually won this case, meaning Shell now has a legal requirement to limit their emissions. And you as KLM are also on Milieudefensie's list of big polluters, as they call it. So are you worried about lawsuits like the one that Milieudefensie put in front of Shell?
M
Marjan Rintel31:18
I don't think lawsuits will help us reach our goals. In my second month, we visited Milieudefensie, we talked with them and all the other parties. I think we need to debate and share what we can do and challenge each other. That's important. Lawsuits will not help us develop and do the necessary innovations.
H
Host31:57
You talked in your introduction about 'fly responsibly.' We did not use that word anymore for the last two years.
M
Marjan Rintel32:05
Yes, time is changing and you need to adapt. We don't use 'fly responsibly' anymore. We even say, looking forward, combine your business trip with your leisure trip, for example. Be more efficient and think about the way you travel. If you want to travel, travel with the most sustainable airline. If you travel, choose between train or plane. If you travel, make a combination of business and leisure.
H
Host32:36
Talking about the groups that you mentioned, specifically for KLM and Schiphol, you have a lot of groups that are very persistent in trying to engage in this communication with you. There have been protests as well. So how do you deal with talking to them and getting their interest presented?
M
Marjan Rintel32:54
As I just said, I met them. I think it's important to have relations with all your stakeholders and to discuss possible solutions, discuss the dilemmas we have, because it cannot be solved today and not even tomorrow. It will take time. If you look at other industries, it's easier. For us, it's an industry hard to debate, but we need to do everything we can. That's why we connect with them, to see where we can work together, what we can do. Of course it's difficult, but that's why we are here today and why I go to Op1 and all the other interviews in the media, to show all the initiatives we take but also to discuss the dilemmas we have.
H
Host33:51
We were mentioning fuels before, and obviously fossil fuels are quite a hot topic here in the Netherlands. In contrast to many other types of fossil fuels like the gas I put in my car or the gas I cook with, the kerosene you fly your planes with is not subject to tax, and the plane tickets you sell are also not subject to tax compared to train tickets. Why do I have to pay tax if I buy a pizza at the store, but not if I go back to Italy?
M
Marjan Rintel34:24
That's really a myth. If you don't think you pay tax on your ticket, it's a myth. If you go to Budapest, you pay €200. 60% of it today is tax. 60% of your ticket today is tax. Tomorrow and the day after, it will be 75%. We committed to the EU targets, committed to the Green Deal, and therefore taxes will be 75% of your ticket tomorrow. Of course there's still debate on kerosene tax, long-haul tax, transfer tax. The only thing we say is, if we want to implement more tax above the 60% and the 75%, then at least do it at the European level.
H
Host35:21
So Bas Eickhout is talking about kerosene tax and he wants to arrange this at European level, hopefully at world level, because of the level playing field. But today we already pay 60% tax and it will increase to 75%. Do you think if this tax is at a European level playing field, this will cause you a competitive disadvantage towards others?
M
Marjan Rintel35:44
We discussed already Qatar, Emirates, and Turkey. If you implement things on a national level, it's not helping sustainability. This is meant for sustainability, and then you replace the problem to what we discussed before, to Brussels or to Frankfurt, because people want to travel still today. But if you implement it at world level, then it's a level playing field and it's really helping. And if then you also use the money from the tax for investing in sustainability, it would be even better.
H
Host36:24
Do you actively lobby for this global playing field?
M
Marjan Rintel36:26
Yes, yes, yes.
H
Host36:29
I think this is a good time to go back to the audience, maybe see if there's some more questions. In the back there, a lot of questions. That's good. We have a very engaged audience obviously.
A
Audience Member36:41
Hi, good morning. I have a question about the future of pilots. Do you consider a job as a pilot future-proof, or do you think they're going to not be as useful as they are right now? And what is the current situation of the market for pilots? Is there a shortage or no?
M
Marjan Rintel37:07
Can I ask you a question? If there's a plane without pilots, do you want to travel? No. But I'm considering innovation. That innovation is far ahead, and there is a lot of innovation already today, but I think we still need pilots. It's the same for trains. There's a lot of automation in trains, but there's always someone in the train controlling the train at the end. There will be innovation, when and how we don't know yet. If you look today, we need a lot of pilots because of overflying Russia. We need already 80 more people as cockpit crew today. We have our own flight academy, so we doubled our pilot classes. There's still a lot of people who want to become a pilot today, so no problem.
H
Host38:13
Great. Let's see if there's some other. I think here in the front, a walk microphone.
A
Audience Member38:24
Yeah, we're keeping Max busy. Zima recently made a YouTube video on pilot safety and their conditions. A lot of pilots are struggling from fatigue, and the same goes for aviation personnel. Is KLM actually aware of these problems inside their personnel culture, and are you investigating this? Since there's a lot of silencing culture and temporary contracts among pilots. I'm not sure how this is with KLM, but are you aware of these problems and are you aware of the topic?
M
Marjan Rintel38:57
I'm aware of the topic. Safety goes first for KLM. Safety and customers are the first priorities we have, and we will never ever compromise on this. Never. We are really focused on this, and we have a speak-up culture mainly within cockpit crew and pilots, so we can learn every day. Of course you need to evaluate and take care, but I'm aware that this topic plays a part at some airlines in the world.
H
Host39:37
Great. I think we have time for one more audience question. I think here.
A
Audience Member39:45
Thanks. Going back to the discussion just now, you were talking about how people are going to travel through Frankfurt and Brussels if the capacity gets cut at Schiphol, and you have acquired SAS, so you can potentially channel people through Copenhagen if you want to. So do you believe in a more European approach in terms of policy reduction and environment, and if so, how is that going to look like?
M
Marjan Rintel40:13
Several questions at the same time. As a group, we need all the hubs, and then we have a combination of the networks between Paris, France, Amsterdam, KLM, and SAS Copenhagen. It will be a European network from the three hubs. But you ask me about reduction of movements. Reduction of movements is not the solution. Reduction of noise and CO2 is the solution, and we need to achieve those objectives in a different way, and we can achieve those objectives in a different way.
H
Host41:08
Great. Going back to what you mentioned before, you had a sustainability campaign 'fly responsibly' that you ran from 2019 to 2022. Even when you launched the slogan, it led to opposition from climate groups. Maybe based on that, you decided to rescind the slogan, but you mentioned that you still stand behind this message to combine your business and leisure trip, take the train more often. So why do you think this specific slogan doesn't fit that message anymore?
M
Marjan Rintel41:38
Because 'fly responsibly' was set with a lot of context around it. People don't read the context, they only look at the slogan 'fly responsibly' and then they say you cannot fly responsibly. So time is changing and you need to adapt, and that's what we did.
H
Host41:55
What would be a better slogan if you could pick a new one right now?
M
Marjan Rintel41:59
We have a new one, but it will be launched in two or three months' time, so I'm not allowed to tell.
H
Host42:05
Can't reveal it yet? No. Shame. Looking forward to seeing it then. You mentioned that one of the options you offer to fight sustainability is traveling with a combination of a KLM flight and a Eurostar ticket. So for flights from Brussels to a number of destinations, you offer the option to take a train to Amsterdam and then fly from Schiphol. However, if you try to book just a route Brussels to Amsterdam, the cheapest option you have to take the train to Paris, then to Amsterdam from there for €172. The offer to just take a train from Brussels to Amsterdam isn't shown there. Is this flying responsibly?
M
Marjan Rintel42:43
We still fly four times a day. We flew five times a day from Brussels to Amsterdam. We skipped already one flight. We said we have the ambition to cancel all flights to Brussels, so that's the ambition and that's the target.
H
Host42:58
What time frame are we looking at for this?
M
Marjan Rintel42:59
That's what I explained to you. We discuss with Eurostar, we discuss with the Dutch Railways, we discuss with the Dutch government that we need to have trains from Brussels also during the weekend. It's difficult for me as a business to explain to customers from New York you can go by train on a Thursday but not on a Saturday and Sunday. You can go with your Star to Paris and arrive at Schiphol, but not to London. You have to go to Amsterdam Central Station, no that's closed by now, you need to go to Rotterdam Central Station to go to London. That's difficult to explain. So we need to align the timetable of the trains with the timetables and also have them at Schiphol for transfer. These are the structural issues that limit us. We have the ambition to reduce it to zero, but therefore we need Eurostar or Dutch Railways at least to have frequencies also in the early morning, on Saturday and Sunday, for example. There are more things to be solved.
H
Host44:12
The example here though is that if you input in your website Brussels as a departure and Amsterdam as an arrival, you show the option to first take the train to Paris and then fly from there. That same train in the opposite direction ends up at Amsterdam. So I think this is a case where maybe you choose your own product over that of a competitor. But is there going to be a day where I put in Paris to Amsterdam on your website and I'll get the option to take a plane and also just the train?
M
Marjan Rintel44:38
If you buy a ticket from New York to Brussels, often the train is included in that ticket. The train ticket is included, not the plane ticket. We offer a lot of our customers the possibility to go by train.
H
Host45:02
But still, would you see a world in which you also show your competitors? So if I put in Amsterdam to Berlin, you would say you can take the plane, you'll be there in two hours, you can also take the train, takes longer, that's better for the environment?
M
Marjan Rintel45:15
Yes, of course. If there is a possibility for train in four hours, we will offer that, and better, we will combine it with the flight ticket. So if people want to fly from New York to Berlin, they buy a ticket including everything to make it easier.
H
Host45:32
But as of now, you don't show those direct journeys because it's not there yet?
M
Marjan Rintel45:36
That's the issue. For Amsterdam to Brussels, for example, it is there, but not in the weekend. That's the issue. For us to run a business, you need to give confidence to your customers, and you want to travel each day of the week, each time of the week. It's impossible for us to communicate today it's possible, tomorrow it's not possible because there's no train. That's why we work so hard with all the stakeholders to improve that product. Things need to be improved for stability.
H
Host46:12
That maybe goes towards more technical details of how those contracts work. You have a contract with Eurostar, which is owned by the French government mostly. How does it go that you will eventually be able to offer these guarantees? Is it included in the contracts that you close with these train providers that you need a certain guarantee or a certain reliability on these routes?
M
Marjan Rintel46:31
No. What we do today is we buy a lot of seats. We have a real seat block in the trains for our customers. That's the easy part. On CEO level, of course I talk to the CEO of Eurostar to convince them to have a different timetable as well in the weekend, and we have working groups in place to get things done.
H
Host47:00
One competitor on the route Brussels to Amsterdam is also the NS. What makes you then choose for one over the other?
M
Marjan Rintel47:03
Work with both of them.
H
Host47:08
Both. Okay, great. We also wanted to come back to talking about your business model, which functions as a hub. You mentioned this in the beginning of the interview. There are some examples here. If you look at your website, we don't fly to Kazakhstan. If you look on your website, you have the option to fly from Brussels, Frankfurt, and Düsseldorf to Amsterdam, then have a layover here, and then take a flight to a different destination. But what we found is that especially for one-way flights, it is always cheaper to be a transfer passenger than to fly directly from Amsterdam. We have some slides as an example. From Frankfurt to Amsterdam to Cape Town, for example, is €569. If you take that same flight from Amsterdam to Cape Town directly as only part of the journey, you pay €941. Next one, if you go to Washington, direct flights are always more expensive.
M
Marjan Rintel48:10
Yes, that's what you're saying exactly.
H
Host48:11
For example, Brussels to Amsterdam to Washington, you're talking about a €700 difference if you drive from Amsterdam. Same for Mexico City, it's almost twice as expensive. Singapore as well, also twice as expensive. So what we do is, it's not only KLM. If you look at each and every airline in the world, it's the same. Direct flights are always more expensive than transfer. That's first. Second, if you compare Schiphol to Frankfurt, we are both hub-and-spoke carriers. We both have around 50-60% transfer customers. If you look at the customers transferring via Amsterdam, I think 70% of those customers don't have an option of direct flights. They just don't have the option of direct flight. So it's either the choice to fly via Schiphol or the choice to fly via Frankfurt, because we have such a great network of 160 destinations. With the prices we offer, people want to fly via Schiphol. If we don't offer it, they fly via Frankfurt.
M
Marjan Rintel49:32
We also checked this for return flights, of course. It's mostly during one-way flights where it's different, but also in return journeys you see that usually it's cheaper to not fly from Amsterdam. But then still, don't you feel it's difficult to explain to the Dutch population that they have to pay more to fly using the Dutch airline if they're going for the same journey?
H
Host49:50
It's all about direct flights. If you as a... it's all about direct flights, which are more convenient than indirect flights. That's the choice you have. It's a business we run, don't forget. It's a business with supply and demand, and that makes the price.
M
Marjan Rintel50:12
But still, if you would have to pay twice as much, €700 extra, to take the same plane journey, it's because of all the taxes probably.
H
Host50:23
I think you know this puts quite a burden on the Netherlands and its citizens. The people of Amsterdam, for example, who want to fly, or our students who want to fly home to Singapore or Cape Town, have to pay a higher price just because they're in Amsterdam rather than being in a different city.
M
Marjan Rintel50:38
If you live in Frankfurt, it's the same case. If you live in any city and you want to take a plane from Frankfurt to Amsterdam and then to your hometown, it's easier. But that's always the case with direct flights. You're serving the German students, not the Dutch students. And I think KLM was born for the Dutch people. Are you not doing a disservice to them by having such high prices for direct flights?
H
Host50:58
Not only the Dutch people. We are a transfer company, so we serve a lot of international customers. It is the case that direct flights are more expensive, but it's also the case that if you book a year ahead, it's cheaper than if you book a month ahead. It's always supply and demand. If you book a year ahead, you can fly for a right price. If you book a flight via Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Singapore, it's cheaper than direct flights. That's the business model. That's why it's important for us to have a business model in place and do all the investments we need, still taking into consideration your sustainability goals.
M
Marjan Rintel51:49
It feels difficult that if you take an extra flight you save money. So do you think there's something wrong with the business model of the supply and demand calculation behind these prices?
H
Host51:57
No. I think one topic you did not mention before, which I think is far more important, is a single European sky. I'm not sure if you looked into it, but if you look at the way you fly today, we always have to fly with a circle because of all the different countries with all the different air traffic control regulations, all different systems. If we work together within Europe, if we work together in the world and optimize the way we fly, it saves 10% CO2 reduction by flying directly. I think that's the real topic.
M
Marjan Rintel52:40
Also a promising initiative.
H
Host52:43
Yes. I think before we close the interview, we have time for one or two more audience questions. I think you see in the audience to the left.
A
Audience Member52:59
There's been a lot of issues in the press raised recently about Boeing and its quality control issues, and some incidents even with Boeing planes including the 787 Dreamliner and 737 Max. I was just wondering, do you know about these issues? Are you aware of those, and if you have an action plan to solve this?
M
Marjan Rintel53:20
Yes, of course I'm aware of it. We all read the same newspaper. There's a lot of pressure on Boeing. We have the 787, it's a good plane. We still have some new planes coming in, it's fully checked and controlled. I think the main issue today is the supply chain. If you look around the world and look at all the geopolitical issues, it's difficult in the supply chain. We lack there. There's a labor market issue, so suppliers lack people. There's an issue in supplies because of the Russia-Ukraine situation. Therefore, sometimes we need to wait for eight weeks to receive a new seat which is broken in the plane. That's the real issue. Therefore, we really need to take care of the supply chain, and for safety reasons, we do all the extra checks and controls necessary.
H
Host54:36
I think we have time for one more question. Let's see if in the back one there and one there. There's a lot, not all the time in the world.
A
Audience Member54:46
Hello, thank you so much for your talk. I mean, we all need to fly because unfortunately technological innovation cannot get us anywhere. But you mentioned that it's about reducing noise and CO2, but not per se about reducing movement. But of course, in the end, we do need to reduce our intercontinental movement as well. Even if planes will be innovated with hydrogen, it would still just be in terms of energy conversion, it just takes a huge amount of energy, and energy is bound to get more expensive. So isn't the real challenge for you as a CEO of Royal Dutch Airlines to make your market grow without increasing the number of air travel per se?
M
Marjan Rintel55:34
I didn't talk about growth. We don't talk about growth. We talk about noise reduction and CO2 reduction, but not about growth. I think we are the only airline and the only country in the world not talking about growth. It's a broader issue than only the Netherlands. Look at European level, look at world level, look what's happening in India. They order 500 new airports. Look what's happening in Turkey, it's growing. Look what's happening in the United States, it's growing. We really need to accelerate sustainability to avoid that it's 203% CO2 which we need to solve. I'm not so sure what the next development will be. I think electrical flying will be the solution for short distances, 5, 6, 7, 800 kilometers. But next to this, I think the new airplanes, the new engines, and the synthetic aviation fuels will be the solution for long-haul flights.
H
Host56:45
I think we've mentioned many topics, and obviously we would love to spend hours and hours talking, but we have an hour. So more questions? Okay, let's do one more then, for sure. Absolutely. We can go right there.
A
Audience Member57:03
Hi, thank you so much. I am an international student from Budapest, so now I know why my tickets are the price. But I can't help but notice that every time I fly, I get my little cheese sandwich in plastic packaging and my little cup of drink in a plastic cup. I know it might seem insignificant in comparison to CO2 emissions, but it is a huge issue. I was wondering if you have any plans to change that to, for example, paper packaging?
M
Marjan Rintel57:29
Very good question. Thank you for asking me that question, because it's very relevant. We have a full team on innovation looking into this. Do you know why we use this plastic? Because it's very light. It saves weight, it saves fuel, and we can reuse the plastic. Therefore, even the cabin crew is taken care of and catering services is taken care of that we collect all the plastic which we use on board and then reuse it. So everything together, it's the most sustainable way.
H
Host58:17
We would love to close up because it's three, but you can always come by and ask questions once the interview is finished. You have a tough flight ahead, and we've seen the challenges that lie in front of you. It's a tight rope you're going to be walking. For our last question, we would like to ask you: the next time you're going to Brussels, will you take a train or a flight?
M
Marjan Rintel58:40
I'm going to Brussels next week by train. I go to Paris a lot, I go to Paris every week because our head office is there, and I either go by train or by plane.
H
Host58:51
That's wonderful. I think that's a good sustainable note to end today's interview on. Our next interview will be this Monday with In Robans from 1 to 2. She's a professor at UT University, and she'll be talking on the topic of climate initiatives. Our next Lustr interview will be on the 26th of March with Admiral W. Bower, who's the chair of NATO's Military Committee, from 1 to 2. If you're tired of sitting in the audience and would like to be on this side, our applications to become an interviewer are open. Obviously, you can always check our social media and our YouTube for our future interviews and our past ones as well. We would like to thank the audience very much for coming here today and joining us, and a big, big applause for Miss Rintel as well for joining us today.