What 10 Years of Failure Really Looks Like Before a $7B Exit | Mark Pincus - Zynga Founder

What if I told you you're going to toil in obscurity? You're going to go a direction no one else went. And here's good news. I'm from the future. The good news is you were right. The bad news is it took 10 years. You toiled in obscurity. You were nobody. You barely got listeners. And in the ninth year, you took off and you crushed Tim Ferriss.

Before you hit it big, most founders spend years in the dark, unknown, doubted, and close to giving up. Mark Pincus, the founder of Zynga and one of Silicon Valley's most battle-tested entrepreneurs, knows that abyss better than almost anyone. Here's what he learned about surviving it.

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Mark, this is one of my favorite ideas that you have. You say the most dangerous place to be is almost great. Not failing, almost great. You call it B+. You've watched friends stay in B+ businesses, B+ relationships, B+ lives for years. Why is this the biggest issue that people have? This B+ life. B+ is the enemy of the A on all those fronts.

I think that — but we should have an A+ life, but we get trapped in this B+ is almost good enough. And we start to believe that we're better than we are.

Why do we get trapped in that? I'm thinking about it now — we're talking about different ways to even — I can do podcasting differently, founders can create better product. So when we all start out, I'm just thinking like I'll use myself as an example. When I started this podcast I was never like, oh I wanted to be a B+ podcast — that's almost insulting to me. Like why would I ever say that to myself? You work with so many founders, why does anybody get stuck in this B+ life?

Who are you copying?

So I guess — I'll ask for you to coach me as a way to teach the audience. So how do you know when it's a B+ and you should kill it, or is it a couple iterations away from becoming that A+?

Exceptionally.

I know that.

I take that. But I'll tell you what's scary.

Well, that's the scary part because what if after 9 years you still stay in obscurity?

So the more that I study, and I think intellectual honesty — I think that's a very important trait. You know, even before we're talking about what are the things you want to talk about and we can talk about how to create a great product, these are very tactical ideas. I think some of the mindsets are important around how to create a great product, how to create a great business, but going a step deeper, the personality traits that will allow you to adopt the right mindsets that will allow you to eventually be successful. So I think intellectual honesty, the way that you framed it, is one of the most important ones because then that allows you to take a good hard look at yourself and see if what you're building is actually what you should be building. So just recently now I'm trying different formats. I'm trying new styles. I'm looking at — who was the live streaming business Twitter show that was just acquired by Open?

I don't know who I'm copying now. Now I'm not trying to copy anyone.

Or it might be the opportunity. That's what I don't know. So I think — and this is not my interview. I want you to teach.

I think that what I try and do is I bridge very complicated ideas. This is what I hope that I do well. I bridge complicated ideas from people that have figured out life and I take them to a level where people who are just starting out can understand ideas very much so.

Right now, it would be the two that are the biggest — Chris Williamson with Modern Wisdom or Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett. Those are the proven ones. Now Tim Ferriss is still there, but these ones have grown bigger faster.

I like that. So emulate what's proven, make it better — but also don't just emulate it. Because people need a place to start. That's where they —

It's not meant to be a motivational talk. It's meant to be useful talk.

They just know it works.

So the cardinal sin of podcasting is have too much conversation before you press record because I keep referencing when we chat. That's fine. I think what you should do — here's, I got an idea for you and it's a new idea, so it'll fail — we should do is just film. Just film. Just have the camera on before you start.

But I think I got some of my best stuff. And it would be really funny if you just filmed the before start and then you didn't film the whole video and just see what that —

I love it. That would be like — like a Big Brother style just having a little camera in the green room before we press record.

Yes. Okay. So what's happening right now with the entrepreneur or the creator that's being too okay with failure? Where did that idea come from?

So — and also I don't think they're getting any learning from it.

So all these ideas — like you mentioned before, these are conflicting ideas based on who you're speaking to and where they're at in their journey. But if you could, you have this founder who's this blank slate, and I don't want you to stay in something for too long. I also don't want you to just fail and pretend it didn't happen. What's the wisdom or the guidance to that person to properly understand when they should fail or when they shouldn't?

It's like building feedback loops into your process. So you're a self-taught individual. You're always consuming and then you're finding a way to take that and then build some feedback loop into your product or your business that can validate or invalidate your thesis.

The nuclear winter.

Why did Zynga work when Tribe didn't? You mentioned that there was a little bit of humbleness in Tribe not working and you going back to, you know, rubbing sticks together. But what was the thing that allowed it to be successful?

That's so funny.

Oh my god.

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Content creators have to take a lesson from entrepreneurs who have already learned the hard way that virality doesn't necessarily build a good business. I think content creators — I think there's sort of like the newer wave of entrepreneurs and for a while they could tap into virality and organic reach and they could build a business, I said in air quotes, meaning that you could build an audience through viral means, even podcast. But I don't think that's the strategy. I don't think that's a winning strategy. I think that doing things that don't scale is always a smart strategy.

It always comes back to product. Is it a good product?

Well, I mean like for my content, people think about — people have asked me, how did you start it? Who were you targeting? Who was the avatar listener? For me, it was me 10 years ago. I'm like, I want to create content that Scott 10 years ago would be listening to and I'm sure I can find like a thousand other Scotts somewhere and those could be my thousand true fans. And then I'll start with that and then I'll iterate from there. So maybe it's a mixture of creating something that you would use, but also you — I know you don't like the word emulate, but you're finding something. This is like the —

Explain how.

You're very strict about copying. That's the first step.

No. So now there's too many variables.

No. Okay. So there's an example that I want to dive into. So you had a viral tweet about a hotel check-in at the Peninsula in Chicago. By the way, this is a lazy web idea. I want somebody to fucking fix this.

I have a feeling — and all the haters can say, 'Oh, you're a tone-deaf rich guy.' I don't think it's true. I think my superpower — and this will — people can say it sounds tone-deaf but I can prove over time it's not. I think my superpower is I somehow seem to represent what all the dumb fucks in our country are going to do in 18 months. And I don't mean that disparagingly. I'm saying I'm one of you. What I mean by dumb fucks, I mean that lovingly. I don't care about any of this shit. I don't care about games. I don't care about apps. I don't care enough to click. I don't care enough to read instructions to learn how to use your fucking — And so I represent what — I have a need, but I am lacking care and curiosity. Okay? And so I have really low attention span and I don't try to solve it. And so I'm just saying if I use something, that's a real signal because it means somehow I learned how.