Welcome to Esprit d'entreprise, the show of in-depth interviews on Figaro TV. The show that gives the floor to business leaders.
Hello Olivia. Hello. Today we welcome Thomas Buberl. Hello.
You are the CEO of AXA, one of the largest insurance groups in the world, with an extraordinary history closely tied to its founder Claude Bébéard, who recently passed away. He built AXA starting from a small Norman mutual society and grew it through acquisition after acquisition — Drouot Insurance, the Midi company, Equitable in the United States, and the crown jewel was the UAP in 1996, which was at the time the great French insurer. AXA is 40 years old and has had only three leaders: Claude Bébéard, Henri de Castries, and then you, Thomas Buberl, who have been CEO since 2016. You've refocused the company on personal and business insurance. You yourself made a major acquisition in the United States, the insurer XL. Today AXA has 120 billion euros in revenue, 154,000 employees, 95 million clients, and a presence in 50 countries. We'll obviously come back to your strategic priorities since you've just announced your growth strategy through to 2030. Will you continue at the same pace? We see that the insurance business is also completely disrupted by the overexposure to crises and risks. You'll explain how you're coping. We'll also talk about Europe and the governance challenges if it wants to continue playing in the great concert of world powers. But first, let's talk about France, Thomas Buberl, because we see great political instability in France today. Does it really hurt the economy? Because we see that despite everything, growth holds, consumption holds, and investment too. So does it really hurt the economy?
No, the situation we are currently living through in France is very grave. We can see we are in a dead end and it is urgent to find a solution because today, consumer confidence, business confidence in terms of investment, the confidence of foreign investors — and I think this is an important moment to ask ourselves how we can get out of this crisis. If I look at today, it's fine to talk about successive amendments to the budget laws, but I think there is a missing issue: what is the project for France? Because once again, people are ready to sacrifice for something, but you need to know where you want to go. And this question of where do we want to go, I have trouble finding an answer today.
That's the debate of a presidential election, in fact. It's perhaps that debate that will come up in a year and a half, now in two years.
Yes, maybe. I mean, we are today in a grave situation and once again, there are things that will demand sacrifice from people. We're talking about a tax increase, on the other side a reduction in some payments, notably in social policy. And I think many people will be affected by this. And I imagine people ask themselves, OK, I have to contribute something, but for what goal? If you say the restoration of public finances, that's not a program in itself. Behind that there needs to be a much more ambitious, much broader project.
Yes, of course, because we are in the situation we are in.
I mean, we shouldn't try to criticize and understand how we got here, because that's a waste of time. The only way is the question: we need to discuss together how we can get out of it. And today, in my opinion, to get out of it, we shouldn't only criticize or blame the state. We need to think: OK, what can we do together?
So, precisely, if you have two or three measures to recommend...
I'll just finish my sentence. We need to do it together. That means the state also needs to tolerate a certain, I mean, empowerment of people. Today, businesses and citizens need to be more integrated into this process, so they must also take on more roles. A few concrete topics. For example, instead of just talking about a tax increase for companies, we could also think: OK, what is our goal, or how can companies contribute? For example, today we have a real problem with youth unemployment. Young people can't find work at the start of their careers. Companies can help. Why don't we say, OK, each company must have, let's say, 6% of its workforce as apprentices, and if they don't meet this condition, the additional tax applies? That way you involve people. Or I'll give you another example. It's the same for seniors, because there's also a big problem there. How can we encourage seniors to work beyond retirement age? Companies are partly responsible because they've long benefited from early retirement systems.
That's why it's a joint effort. We need to see together what we can do. That's why I don't criticize the state. We need to see together what can be done. I'll give you another example. Today in social security, people complain that there are too many expenses. Why not turn the system around and say: OK Olivia, I've reserved 6,000 euros for you each year. If you only spend 5,000, I give you half of the 1,000. Immediately you've incentivized the person to think about their consumption. And it starts with the fact that on my health card, I should be able to see my spending, because today I don't even know how much I've consumed. That's empowering people.
You talk about the role of companies. Do business leaders today have a role also in finding a common project? We heard the Prime Minister say that business leaders today are too pessimistic, they keep complaining. Do you think there's also a role for business leaders to restore confidence and set a social direction?
Absolutely. Once again, I come back to empowerment. That means everyone must commit, and that also means that just criticizing the state is, I mean, it's not behaving for the good of society. We now need to focus on the future and business leaders must commit. It's true. More and more. Yes, yes, even more. And perhaps even getting together to help find a project. Because it is absolutely urgent. We need to find a project. I mean, in the United States, Donald Trump found the project Make America Great Again. You can say what you want, but it's a project.
What's Make France Great Again?
So precisely, you speak about the United States. The atmosphere has changed since Donald Trump's election. We've seen trade wars reappear. We've seen the reconstitution of great blocs. There's China, there's the United States, and then there's Europe. And we always have the impression that Europe is a bit the weak link in this globalization. Is that your sentiment too? Well first, if we look at what our fathers created after World War II, it's truly a miracle. Nations at war found themselves united, each respecting the other's diversity. For me, it's still a miracle that happened and today we are all in the necessity of contributing to this miracle. But it's a bit the same thing I mentioned about France. When you ask our parents the question, they say, 'Yes, Europe is peace.' For our generation, Europe is borderless mobility. When you ask our children, they say, 'But why are you asking me this question?' Here too, the project for tomorrow is missing. Europe of tomorrow, what is it? And because of that, I think we're a bit lost because we haven't yet found the engine of tomorrow.
Is the engine of tomorrow probably the governance of Europe on which we'll need to reflect? Does the current governance allow us to continue the miracle you spoke about? I note that the Draghi report has remained almost a dead letter. So what do you say to that?
Two answers to that. One, governance is always an excellent excuse to get lost. We have a governance framework and within it, we have today many means to still move Europe forward. We always talk about unanimity of the 27. Nothing prevents two or three strong countries from getting together and starting to move things. It's always been done that way. I mean, if today we talk about the union of capital markets, this project has existed for 20 years. There's one issue to resolve: how can we find means to finance growth companies so they don't go to the United States. It's a very specific issue where a very simple solution can be found. Instead, what do we do? We undertake an enormous reform of all markets trying to find the solution for one topic. Let's focus on this topic instead of treating everything. And two, if we don't find again the love for Europe — that's the project — without love for Europe, we won't get there. The Draghi report is very good but it remains a technocratic report. We need love for Europe, a project for Europe.
It does nevertheless quite clearly lay out the issue. For the first time, it's written by a respected personality who raises the problem, who raises the issue of reindustrialization for example. In your view, is the reindustrialization of Europe and of France, is that one of the great European issues?
Absolutely, but I mean, Mario Draghi, with everything he writes, the question is once again because it's very complex and we can't deal with everything at the same time. For example, the issue of reindustrialization is closely linked to the question of energy supply and pricing. Today we unfortunately haven't resolved that yet. In my opinion, we need to take the report and say what are the three or four priorities, what are the key factors to resolve, and focus on that. It's the same in business. I have 1,000 problems to solve every day, but I only have 24 hours. I need to focus.
You speak about the importance of strong countries within the European Union. We have the Franco-German couple that has historically been Europe's engine. You yourself are of Franco-German origin. Do you consider that this couple, which was a bit at a standstill, works a bit better since Chancellor Merz arrived, or is there still...?
Absolutely. The couple works better, the Franco-German friendship works better. But here, it's the same thing. If you look at everything that was discussed in Toulon, we see there are many priorities being discussed. We need to focus on less. And secondly, this couple over time has had children, if I stay with the family notion. Today there are other countries that are very mature — Poland, Spain, Italy — where we perhaps need to think of a new formula that goes beyond the couple.
France, to carry out all these projects, needs to have a voice that carries. Do you estimate that by never respecting treaties, notably on financial stability, France has lost credibility? This is something we hear a lot, but you who travel a lot, do you notice it? The fact of never having balanced accounts, never respecting European commitments on public finances — is France losing its voice in Europe?
I think you can find points to criticize for any country. I mean, I could do the same thing about Germany. How can they focus on energy supply from Russia and China? You have in any country points of criticism. Once again, I don't believe in criticism at all. It's a waste of time and on top of that it's a lack of responsibility. The only question is: we are where we are, how can we get out of it? And I think that's where France can regain credibility if it's capable of restoring its accounts, and that comes through empowerment of people for a common project. I totally believe in that. This idea that France is not reformable — I don't believe it at all. We can get there but we need a common project.
