Journalist Katie Couric On Navigating Today’s Volatile Media Landscape | The Forbes Files

Hi! Hello, how are you? I'm good. I'm just readjusting this because I think I have too many books on my dining room table. Hi!

Nice to see you! Thank you for doing this. This is so nice of you. And yes, it's funny because I do a lot of Instagram Lives and some people who don't do them very much are basically like, 'Yeah, hi Moira,' and they're sort of... But at least I've learned how to keep the phone stationary. Sometimes can't even find the people on there. I'm like, where are you? After all these years with Instagram Live, they still like to keep us on our toes, right? Well, what's nice is now you can have more than one person for a conversation. And I'm going to be talking to Neil Katyal this afternoon about the threat to reproductive rights in this country because of that leaked Supreme Court decision and some of the rhetoric and language being used by Justice Alito. He's a constitutional law scholar. And I'm so happy to see you be using this kind of technology because the media landscape has changed so dramatically. And just as there's disintermediation between brands and consumers, we've seen it take over the media industry as well. It's just a really interesting development in terms of the kinds of conversations you can have without necessarily being under the auspices of a big news organization.

Well, I think I started getting interested in how media was changing after I'd worked at the Today Show with NBC, and then prior to that I was the Pentagon correspondent. I worked in local news for a number of years, then I went to CBS for five years — a very traditional news network. Then I went to do a daytime syndicated show, which really wasn't the right fit for my interests or skill set necessarily. So after that, I was looking around and thinking, gosh, the world has changed. I feel a bit like I'm riding on the back of a dinosaur still working in television news. And I certainly wanted to branch out and iterate content in all kinds of different ways because I saw very clearly people were consuming news and information differently. So that's when I went to Yahoo, which I think was kind of a crazy bold move, and it had, I think, endless potential. But Yahoo at the time was more interested in Alibaba and they had other things on their plate and never quite put the energy into or even the thought into really transforming it into a modern media company. And so I tried to do that for a while. That was a bit frustrating because I saw the potential. And then I thought, well, gosh, I'm sort of, for better or for worse, a known quantity at this point. And at a time when it's very difficult to become a household name because there are so many people creating content, why not try to create a company with people who shared my values, who wanted to do information not affirmation? I'm interested in the whole panoply of media that is now available to people. And that's why my husband and I — he had a background in finance, was a partner at Brown Brothers Harriman, so he's a very smart business person and that is not my strong suit — we decided, why don't we take this changing landscape and create something interesting where I felt fulfilled, where we could lift up other voices, where we could help train other journalists. And so we've created Katie Couric Media. You're very sweet to call it an empire.

You know, it's interesting because I think legacy media companies were very slow to adapt to technology, partially because they didn't want to cannibalize their content. They wanted to kind of hold on by their fingernails to established forms of communication and media. And that was always very frustrating. I remember being at CBS — I mentioned this in my book — and the number two guy at CBS, of course it was a guy, said to one of my producers, 'I think it's beneath the anchor of the CBS Evening News to be on the Twitter.' Now, I think Twitter is problematic for a lot of reasons that developed later on in terms of establishing echo chambers and using it for other members of the media instead of trying to educate the public. But at the time, it was a fairly new platform and a powerful one to draw attention to the primary product. And I remember also vividly when I was at CBS, from 2006 to 2011, someone there said to me, 'The future is mobile.' And I'll never forget that. I remember thinking at the time — iPhones didn't come along until 2008 — and I remember thinking, what? How could that be? I might have even had a flip phone or a BlackBerry by then. But he was so prescient. And it's really true that this rectangle we're talking to right now has, in many ways, replaced the one that was in our living rooms and bedrooms, particularly for young people. I think older Americans are still entrenched in television. People, unfortunately, my age or older. But all you have to do is look at the advertisements on the evening newscast to get a clue as to who's watching it — Depends and Preparation H. Nothing against older Americans, because I am one, but it's clear young people have gravitated to much different forms of staying informed.

I think I always pushed for having a strong voice wherever I was. When I was offered the job on the Today Show, I said I would only take it if there was a 50-50 division of labor between me and Bryant Gumbel. And at the time, the male had traditionally been clearly in charge and the woman was sort of the second banana. And I said, you know, I've worked in local news, I've covered the Pentagon, I think that representation really matters and the images we project into the public help shape our national consciousness. And I very much wanted to have equality on that show. I remember the president of NBC News saying, 'Well, how about 51-49?' And at that time I said, okay, I'll take it. But Bryant had very specific things — I don't know whether they were contractual — but there was an understanding he would open every show, he would throw to every commercial, clearly giving the viewer the impression that he was in charge. And I said, it's time to have equality, and these perceptions are really critically important. So after that, I always felt like I could channel my voice. I had a lot of latitude at the Today Show. If I said, I really think we need to do a piece on this, or I think we should focus on this issue. And I used that even more when I was at CBS, talking about issues involving women in the military, or we did a lot on dating violence when the young lacrosse player was murdered at the University of Virginia — that happens to be my alma mater. And I found that I could focus some of the stories on things that, quite frankly, the men in charge were not as concerned about as I was. So I think for me, having more freedom means I can have longer conversations. I can do it much more immediately. We don't have to get a camera crew to a location or fly. So for me, it's given me a lot more logistical ability and sort of liberation to have these conversations. And to say to Neil Katyal, 'Hey Neil, did you read...' Obviously we had talked before about what was happening with the January 6th committee and he had mentioned the threat to reproductive rights at the end of our conversation. So we are going to talk today about this leaked decision, what it means, how the language might change between now and when the decision is handed down, and what are options for people. I've been surprised that there hasn't been more vocal opposition to this threat to reproductive rights. Now, I could probably not have said that when I was with a traditional network. But I'm clearly in favor of reproductive rights and reproductive freedom in this country, a woman's right to choose. Sixty percent of the country is in fact. And while I hope to be respectful of people who disagree, I think it's important for us to inform that majority of Americans in terms of what they can do as this very fundamental right is being threatened. And 26 states have trigger laws, Moira, as you probably know. So when the federal protections are overturned, those states will automatically make it illegal for a woman to terminate a pregnancy. And I've been working on a six-part podcast about this that we're going to be launching in early June. We may have to speed up the release of that. So I've been deeply embedded in this whole issue from a variety of viewpoints. And so anyway, I think what's great is I can just be like, hey, I want to talk to Neil. Can you all help me? We have 35 people on our team doing various things. We're working with global brands.

But our philosophy has been, in addition to doing things that have nothing to do with companies or global brands — we do work with global brands and create what we call brand-supported content, and it's not about sell more soap or this skin cream is great or bank here — it's about focusing on the issues these companies care about, like environmental sustainability or gender equality, racial justice, health and wellness. So we help tell these stories that happen to align with the values I have. So that's been sort of our model, and these partnerships have allowed us to grow and hire a lot of people in various aspects of the media business. They are the fuel that keeps our engines running in media. And if you don't have those great partners, you can't really expand and drive great storytelling.

Well, I think, as I said earlier, I do think that I can take more of a stand on controversial issues. You know, I do not believe the election was rigged. Neither do, I guess, 21 courts that have said there's absolutely no evidence, and in fact it was perhaps the safest and most legitimate election in years. So I think what's gotten all convoluted is it used to be different philosophies on government and what the country's priorities should be, what a party's philosophy is. And it has morphed — slowly or quickly — into what is true and what is not true. And so I hope that I will always be on the side of truth and facts, and that is my north star. So I think that's changed for a lot of journalists, not just me. And unfortunately, when people speak the truth, if it aligns with the party line, it's considered bias — when they're just actually telling the truth. So it's presented such a conundrum to so many journalists. And so I think the overall environment has changed dramatically. And I will keep doing what I've always done, which is just be as factually accurate as possible. But it's extremely difficult. I was reading a piece in The Economist about Anthony Fauci and the death of science. There's very little room for nuance in our national conversation now, and very little room for understanding that science is actually an evolving art and that scientists do not immediately have all the answers when they're confronted with a new problem. And so the environment is just really tricky right now. But I hope that I provide information and guidance and some kind of enlightenment so people can have informed opinions instead of opinions without portfolio, which I think is what we're seeing so much in the country. Sorry, that was like a big kind of preachy speech. But anyway, I think it just allows me to use my north star and say, hey, we're not paying attention to this and we need to. I thought we weren't paying enough attention to this threat to reproductive rights. That's why I embarked on this six-part podcast, which is very inclusive of all the issues, from the history to what will happen if Roe is overturned. And so I'm able to say, hey, let's do this. I'm able to say, I think we should interview Bill Browder because no one knows Putin better than Bill Browder, and I think I was the first to interview him about what is going on in Putin's head. So I think I can just use the wealth of experience I've had and all the contacts I've made, and the fact that I think people know when I'm doing an interview with them that I'm going to be prepared, I'm going to hopefully ask smart questions, and I'm going to be respectful. And I have this wealth of experience and a body of work to back that up.

Well, I think it's exciting, it's liberating. I think we need to, as a culture, start looking at what people have to offer when they're in their 60s, 70s, even 80s. You know, I just turned 65 in January. Honestly, I was pretty bummed out about it because I started getting all my Medicare notifications and stuff. And I just feel like I still have a tremendous amount to offer in terms of helping illuminate complicated issues — something that I think I have become good at, especially dealing with my husband's cancer. I had to learn how to synthesize very complicated things and make them digestible. And I think ageism is the last acceptable ism in culture. And I think it's just really important that I love to work, I love to have these conversations. This is really fun for me. And people in their respective fields have so much to offer. So I just hope that there will be room for people to continue doing what they love to do or to pivot and focus their lens on something else. But we're very valuable, I think. And that's not to say that young people aren't super valuable too, because obviously they are. And I firmly believe in something called reverse mentoring. I try to learn things from my daughters, from my employees who are in their 20s and 30s and 40s. And so I think this is the fuel that keeps me going. I'm passionate about storytelling. I'm passionate about helping people understand this complex world we're living in. I'm passionate about helping people figure out a way to channel their anger or their passion about different subjects. So I think being an entrepreneur is very different because I had these big organizations with a lot of bureaucracy, but also along with that bureaucracy comes a lot of personnel that helps support your work. And so I've had to be scrappier. But I have this great team of people. Being an entrepreneur is really exciting but really hard. And I think one of the biggest challenges is finding the people who share your vision. You know, I interviewed Ina Garten and I said, how do you find people you want to hire? She said, I hire happy people because you can teach anybody about cheese but you can't teach people to be happy. I'm not sure if happy is the number one thing, but somebody who really cares. John says when he was hiring his whole career, he would take someone who really cared over some Ivy League guy who thought they had all the answers. Somebody who's really driven and really cares.

I mean, I think it probably would be twofold. Hopefully there are a couple lessons in the book about persistence, because I was certainly not told, 'Oh, you're going to be a big star, kid.' I had to really fight against type and establish my credibility and show people that if you're short and outgoing and have a decent sense of humor or are friendly, that doesn't automatically mean that you are somehow an airhead or a lightweight. And I think there's a lot of visual discrimination that goes on in all aspects of our life. So I think — if you really are driven and care about something and you just keep pursuing it despite the people who tell you you'll never make it. So persistence is one thing. I think resilience is throughout my book, Moira, in terms of both professional and personal setbacks that I've had, and the ability to kind of reimagine your life and your work when obstacles or disappointments or devastating loss fall in your path. And then thirdly, and this is to me the double-edged one, the importance of taking risks and taking chances. But having said that, I think when I look back on my life, I wish that I had made more informed decisions.

Well, for example, I think when I kind of had this attitude, well, this will be exciting and even if it doesn't work, it's going to be a growth experience. I wish that, for example, when I'd gone to CBS, I'd really done more due diligence to make sure that the culture and what I was being asked to do by the leadership way above was being affirmed by the other people in the organization. And so I wish that I had had, honestly, better representation that would have been able to suss that out a little bit more, that I had gone about meeting with some of the various leaders in the organization to kind of sense that this was a welcome development in their view or something that was being kind of forced upon them. And I think I might have said, I don't feel like this is necessarily the place that it's going to be easy to do what I'm being asked to do. And so I think I totally still believe it's important to take risks and try new things, but I also think you need to be, as Cy Sims used to say, an educated consumer. An educated consumer is our best customer. I think you need to really educate yourself on all aspects of the decision and really think long and hard, and also really imagine, well, if this doesn't really work, am I going to be okay with that, or what is the price I'm going to have to pay for that? And no one has a crystal ball, but I do think if you equip yourself with all those things and really consider them seriously, that's a good idea.

Calculated is an extremely important part of that risk. And I think probably at times in my career I wasn't calculating enough.