Aides aux grandes entreprises : audition de Rodolphe Saadé

Dear colleagues, Mr. Chairman, CEO of CMA CGM, I once again apologize for the delay in starting this hearing. We have three small details to settle. We are continuing the work of our commission of inquiry on the use of public aid to large companies and their subcontractors, with the hearing of Mr. Rodolphe Saadé, Chairman and CEO of CMA CGM, and Mr. Ramon Fernandez, Chief Financial Officer. Today's hearing is recorded and broadcast live. It will be reported on the Senate website. Mr. Chairman, CEO, Director, before giving you the floor, I remind you that false testimony before our commission of inquiry is subject to the penalties provided for in Articles 434-13, 434-14, and 434-15 of the Penal Code. I also thank you for disclosing any conflicts of interest related to the subject of the commission of inquiry, in addition to your roles at CMA CGM.

No interests in other companies that might benefit from public aid. Thank you. I should note, Mr. Fernandez, that you were Director General of the Treasury from March 2009 to June 2014. That is noted. I invite you to successively take an oath to tell the whole truth, nothing but the truth, by raising your right hand and saying 'I swear,' and please remember to turn on your microphones.

Our commission of inquiry, whose members were appointed on January 15th, pursues three main objectives. First, to establish the cost of public aid granted to large companies, understood as those employing more than 1,000 employees and generating a net worldwide turnover of less than 450 million euros per year paid to their subcontractors. Second, to determine whether these aids are properly monitored and evaluated, as we must ensure the proper use of public funds. Finally, to consider the counterparties that could be imposed in terms of broad employment maintenance when public aid is paid to large companies that then proceed with site closures, announce layoffs, or relocate their activities.

After a brief presentation of your group's activities, we would like to hear your perspective, Mr. Chairman and CEO, on public aid to businesses. Some questions to guide your remarks: What are the main differences between aid granted in France and those granted in countries where your group operates? What is the total amount of public aid received by your group in 2023 in France, particularly the amount of subsidies? What is the overview of your subcontractors and the aid they receive? Do you feel that public aid to businesses is sufficiently monitored and evaluated in France? Which aids do you consider effective and which seem rather questionable? What is your view on the mechanism for determining taxable income for maritime transport companies based on vessel tonnage, which is a fiscal expenditure whose cost varies significantly — 5.6 billion euros in 2023 but 615 million in 2024? What proposals would you make to strengthen the efficiency of public aid granted to businesses? Would you favor the introduction of conditions or criteria that allow evaluating aid effectiveness? And finally, what should the limits be on the conditionality of such aid? I have one last small question: were you approached by law firms to help you prepare for this hearing?

I propose you address these questions in an opening statement of about twenty minutes. Then Fabien Gu, the rapporteur, will ask you a few questions to go deeper on certain points. Finally, members of the commission of inquiry may also question you if they wish. Mr. Chairman, CEO, Director, I now yield the floor to you. Thank you again for your presence at this hearing.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and CEO. I recognize your way of presenting things. I had already seen it during an hearing by the Commission on Economic Affairs during the Covid crisis, I believe, when you were auditioned here at the Senate, and I greatly appreciated that hearing. However, we are still missing a few figures. I think we went quite far in the questioning we posed to you. Obviously, you speak to us about social charge exemptions, training aids, a number of things, but we don't have details on the figures for the various aids or exemptions that CMA CGM can benefit from in France. We would like a bit more detail on the figures, and in parallel, to compare with the taxes you pay in France, and even the amount of payroll you also pay in France. These are figures communicated to us by all the people we audition, all the major executives we audition here. They help us feed our work. So, did you have more details and more figures to give us on both your contributions and the public aid you receive, since you only spoke about the 75 million in aid figures?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So in detail, looking at 2024, if we add up all the subsidies and other contributions concerning the group: you have 34.9 million euros to be precise in funding received as a public service delegation for La Méridionale's Corsica service from Marseille. Then you have social charge reductions under various forms totaling 12.2 million euros — 6.2 million under the Loi Fillion device, which were employer charge exemptions put in place in 2016 but which in reality at the start of 2025 were discontinued for freight transport. It is specific to maritime transport, and it represents 12.2 million in employer charge exemptions. Of the 6.2 million, since the beginning of this year they no longer apply to freight transport. We will only benefit from them for La Méridionale's passenger transport activity, where the amount reached 2.5 million in 2024.

You also have a device that was also discontinued at the start of 2025, which was the support mechanism for maritime shipping companies — a reimbursement of salary charges by URSSAF for officer and executive personnel functions. Similarly, this mechanism was refocused at the very start of 2025 to no longer concern only passenger transport personnel. The amount for La Méridionale in 2024 was 1.2 million euros out of a total of 3.3 million that also concerned freight transport. To summarize, the social charge reduction mechanisms that benefited until the end of 2024 both freight and passenger transport now only apply to passenger transport as of 2025 and therefore concern us only for La Méridionale's activity. Next, you have other various salary charge reduction devices totaling 2.8 million in 2024, bringing the sum to 12.2 million. A good part of which will no longer apply in 2025 — actually more than half.

Then you have employment aids, which mainly concern apprentices and total 2.5 million euros in 2024. You have various press aids totaling 1.4 million. And other devices that are really small aids reaching a few hundred thousand euros each, which total 2.1 million.

Then you have tax credits. So when Chairman Rodolphe Saadé gave you the total of 75-80 million, you had 25 million in tax credits. The main amount here is the tax credit for Messen activities, reaching 24.1 million euros in 2024. You also have 12 million for the CMA CGM Foundation's actions, 7.5 million for AI activities that Mr. Saadé mentioned, and then a few hundred thousand euros for donations to various museums, universities, and other public institutions. As a last element on tax credits, you have the research tax credit for 900,000 euros, so it is very limited.

And regarding the taxes you pay?

So, taxes paid — I'm answering for France. In France, for 2024, even though the tax filings are not yet fully closed, 180 million euros in corporate taxes paid in France, covering all of the group's activities. We pay standard corporate tax on all activities other than shipping, which falls within the scope of the tonnage tax. The tax paid by the group for the 2024 fiscal year will reach 180 million euros, out of a worldwide total of 310 million euros.

To which will be added 500 million in exceptional additional contributions under the budget recovery of our country for 2025, Mr. Chairman.

And that also allows us to put things in perspective, or at least compare. The amount of salary mass charged or not charged — you can tell us the global figure for France over a year.

I will need to — we will provide you with that information. I don't want to give you inaccurate information. Thank you. I yield the floor to our rapporteur.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, CEO, Director General, thank you for your introductory remarks and the figures and details you have just provided. So my first question, Mr. Chairman and CEO, do you agree on the issue of transparency regarding public aid and its use?

Very well. Now, on the 75 million, you have given us the breakdown. It concerns mainly La Méridionale — more than half — social charge exemptions that are standard, press aids for a very small amount, and the tax credit, notably the Messen tax credit, and very little the research tax credit. The question, as you know, centers on the tonnage tax. This is a debate that has animated Parliament for years and years. It cost 5.6 billion euros in 2023 because that was the reference year — we don't blame you for choosing 2024, but I come back to our reference year. Can you tell us, out of the 5.6 billion that this tonnage tax cost, how much your group benefited from? I remind you, 5.6 billion for the entirety of this fiscal expenditure.

I just want to emphasize one point regarding the cyclical aspect, since the 5.6 billion euros mentioned by the rapporteur should be compared to, for example, 615 million euros for 2024. This shows the amplitude, but here it is a very significant amplitude that can vary cyclically in this field. And if we refer, as you said, to the 500 million in exceptional contributions, well, we need to put all of this in perspective.

So I come back to this, but I hear that you agree on the issue of transparency. I do too, and I think it is a debate — I have said it to a number of your colleagues — a debate of general interest and public interest. The question is not to point the finger, but the question is to say: I believe we can discuss everything. And obviously, I have often heard you, and you have already come to the Senate, and you say it is a cyclical activity — that is true. That sometimes you have been put in difficulty — that is true. You recalled it in 2008-2009, the Covid crisis, but each time the State was also there to help and support your company through its difficulties, which is logical because it is a strategic activity. The essential debate is: certainly there are thousands of jobs, which is normal, and like any other company, you need to be supported, but the State has always been there. I recall that in 2008-2009, when you were near bankruptcy, you were recapitalized with a Turkish entrepreneur but alongside the BPI. The State was there when in 2020 there was the global Covid crisis that impacted the entire world economy across all sectors — once again, the State was there with a 1-billion-euro guaranteed loan that you have since repaid. The State was there, and this tonnage tax remains an advantage that is first and foremost a French tax, not a European one. There are others in other countries, and obviously it is an element of competitiveness and attractiveness, but it allows — when things go well, and that is why the question of the exceptional tax comes up in debate and you say it is normal that a company making billions in profits should contribute — my question, I put it again, and we can take both reference years: 2023 cost 5.6 billion — at what level did CMA CGM benefit? And we can ask the same question for 2024, since it was 615 million. So how much did you benefit from those 615 million?

So if we look at the tax the group would have paid if it had been subject to standard corporate tax, it would have paid 5.7 billion in additional taxes for fiscal year 2022. It would have paid 583 million more for fiscal year 2023. So taxes paid in 2024 and 2023.

Thank you. I find that the transparency effort allows for a serene debate. Now I am not a specialist. I say that frankly. We are going to focus on the maritime activity, if you permit. Mr. Chairman, I am not a specialist, though I have studied the file quite closely. You said about 700 ships, is that right?

Has the ratio between owned ships and chartered ships remained about the same today?

About 50-50, roughly.

You also told us earlier about 600 sailors, which I imagine is on the owned vessels — approximately how many under the French flag, out of the 350 or so owned ships?

So the rest are under international flags.

OK. So what is the purpose of having 30 ships under the French flag and the rest under various different flags? What is the difference?