Right, let's do it. Let's go for it.
So I'm going to start with the end and ask you to sum up your first 12 months in charge at United. Review yourself.
Right, well, I mean, I think in a funny sort of way it's gone as we anticipated it would. We didn't think the first year was going to be easy because we had difficult things to do. But I think, you know, the club is bigger than — until you actually arrive at the club, it's bigger than you think, you know. And the scrutiny is bigger than you anticipate because you get your school reports at the end of every day instead of at the end of every term. I used to get a clip around the ear once every time by my mother, but now I get a clip around the ear every day by the press, you know. So those things are sort of slightly, you know, I suppose unanticipated or underestimated. But broadly where we are, which I know is a difficult place and people are not very happy about it at the moment, which is why I'm quite unpopular — it is where I didn't expect in a year of change that we'd be winning the Premier League, honestly.
Did you find it hard? The scrutiny, the attention, the criticism?
Well, I used to enjoy picking a newspaper up in the morning having a cup of coffee in a Crion, you know, which it's not quite so enjoyable anymore. But I think the way — I mean, we've all got our sensitivities and it isn't pleasant to read some of the press coverage. But the way I get through it is that I believe what we're doing is the right thing and I believe what we're doing has to be done to get United back to where United should be, which is winning silverware and winning trophies and things like that. And we have to go through this. If you don't like where United have been for the last 12 seasons since Sir Alex retired, then I think ergo you have to accept there has to be a period of change, otherwise it's just going to continue. And change is always uncomfortable and unpleasant at times, and that's sort of where we are at the moment, unfortunately.
Do you understand why the fans are angry? Obviously yesterday they protested at the Arsenal match. Do you understand where it comes from?
Yeah, I think — well, I'm a fan as well, remember. So, you know, fans are not going to be happy languishing down at the bottom half of the table. And yeah, I get that and I sympathize. But I didn't think this year was going to be a walk in the park. It was always going to be difficult. And if you look at the squad that Rúben's got available, he's only got half a squad, honestly.
You just said that you're a fan. As a fan, not as an owner, when you go and watch the games — and you have been watching the last six or seven months — what do you make of the performances?
Well, I think — I mean, I've seen the performances under two, so I don't know whether you're asking me about the previous under Erik and under Rúben now. Well, obviously under Erik it was erratic, I think is the best word I'd use. You know, there was some great — I mean, obviously the FA Cup against Man City, they all turned up and they played like they were in a cup final. And then other times, you know, Crystal Palace or whatever, they didn't show up. Well, under Rúben what we've seen, I think, is it was difficult at the beginning and I sort of get that. But then I think we've seen progress and I think some of the players that we bought in the summer, you've seen them settle. It's quite tough, isn't it? You come — I mean, you spent your life playing there. It's not an easy league to play in and there's a lot of scrutiny and it's tough. I mean, look how Xerxe got knocked about yesterday in the first half. He really got knocked about, didn't he? I mean, he wouldn't be used to that playing in the Italian league, so it takes time for players to settle. But I think, you know, if you look at — I mean, Rúben yesterday against Arsenal, he only had half a squad. How many players would most people recognize on the bench yesterday? It was hardly a name that you'd recognize. I mean, the guy we brought on, Heaven, he's only 18, we only bought him three weeks ago from Arsenal. And then we had Obi on there, he's only 16, I think, and he's played once. There is only half — I think if you look at the top eight most expensive players that we've got in terms of salary, four of them are not available to Rúben now. If you did that with Liverpool or Manchester City, that's the cream of your team gone. So I think I've seen progress. We saw a bit of a glimpse of the future. I thought we saw a glimpse of the future, yeah.
What, in the second half, you mean?
In the second half, yeah. I thought, you know, they were quite cohesive. You could see a bit of the game plan. And the players played their hearts out for Manchester United, they really did. And you could see it, couldn't you? You could see the tackle, you could see the tackle that Heaven made. I mean, it really meant something to them.
So you think the recruitment from last summer will come good?
And how do you assess — but bear in mind, recruitment last summer — we didn't have the luxury of time to prepare for last summer, did we? Jason had been there three weeks, Omar had been there three days. Had the problem with the coach — is that a yes or a no? So, involving the coach and not involving the coach. Did you involve the coach or did you involve —
Yeah, we did, yeah. So Erik signed a lot of those players last — no, he didn't, but he was involved in the discussions and he influenced. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, a decision on a new player or a purchase isn't a decision of one person normally, is it? It's a group of people who influence that decision one way or another. So yeah, he did have a voice, which is why there were one or two Dutch players.
Would you have sacked Erik if you'd have found another manager after the FA Cup final success? Because you were looking around Europe and scouring for a new manager.
It was too early for us to make a big decision in reality. And we haven't been together as a team for very long. If you look, Omar, Jason, myself, Dave — we hadn't been together for very long. It was just a matter of weeks. And it's quite a big decision, isn't it? And also it's quite difficult to — I couldn't — it's quite difficult to extract in that season when we arrived Erik's performance from the structure around him, because obviously the structure around him now is completely different. So if I look today, there's a really strong relationship and a really strong support culture for Rúben with Jason. So Jason and Rúben talk to each other two or three times a day. Omar speaks to Rúben every day. Every time I go to the match, I speak to Rúben. So there's a support structure there and he's got his coaches and the physios and the doctor and everything else. But it was quite difficult to see whether the erratic performance was a function of Erik or was it a function of the organization. And we couldn't really get to the bottom of answering that question with sort of certainty, I suppose. So we gave the benefit of the doubt.
And do you regret that or do you feel —
Yeah, it was a wrong decision. We made the wrong decision, it was an error. So yeah, I suppose in that sense I regret it. I think there was some extent of mitigating circumstances in having made that decision, but at the end of the day it was a wrong decision. So hands up, you know, mea culpa on that one.
How do you assess Rúben's first four or five months? It's been tough in terms of results and performances, but how do you assess — he's very honest.
Yeah, he is honest and I like that about him. I think Rúben has done an excellent job. I really like Rúben and I think in the circumstances — he arrived mid-season. He didn't have time to train his players in the way in which he wants to play. He inherited a squad which he's had no influence on and the squad isn't necessarily designed for the way in which he plays football. And English isn't his natural language and he's never played in the Premier League before and is managing the biggest club in the world and it's a tough place. I mean, Manchester United is a tough place, you know, there's a big one. And he's a young guy. So I think, you know, you take all of that into consideration, I think he's done a remarkably good job.
What parts are you referring to there when you say good job? Obviously the results have been poor. What you referring to, just generally the way in which he carries himself or —
Yeah, I think the way — and I think what he's got out of the players that he's got available. I think he's done well with. Do you? I do, yeah. I mean, if I look at the salary bill of the squad that's available to him, that salary bill is not the salary bill of Manchester City or Liverpool.
Do you mean of the — in what — do you mean you refer to the —
If you look at the salary bill of the players that are available to him that are not injured or not out on loan — because we've got, you know, we've got Antony on loan, we've got Sancho out on loan, we've got Rashford out on loan, we've got Mason Mount hasn't really played in the last two seasons, Luke Shaw hasn't played in the last two seasons. So if you modify our salary bill for the players that are not available to Rúben, then our salary bill ranks as about mid-league, second half of the table. We're sort of level with the likes of Nottingham Forest or Everton, not Manchester City. That salary bill is probably 130 million. And we're talking about Liverpool has got a salary bill of 200 and Manchester City got a salary bill of 300. So that's the squad that Rúben's playing with. He's not got the Liverpool squad, he's not got the Manchester City squad, he's got the Manchester United squad. How many players did you recognize on that bench on Saturday? They're kids.
Do you support what he's done with Rashford, with Antony, with Sancho, and obviously even with Garnacho who's in and out of the team at the moment? He seems to be — you support what he's doing with those players?
Correct, I do, yeah. I think he's doing the right thing with the players. He has to be in charge of the dressing room. I mean, you played in the dressing room where the boss was the boss, wasn't it, at the end of the day. And he's got a set of principles and he wants the players to abide by his set of principles, which is that you have to be totally and utterly committed to winning the next football match. That's what he wants. So if you abide by those principles, you potentially have a seat in the dressing room.
I mean, obviously a lot of these players were brought before Rúben and yourself got into the club, and do you feel like you're correcting the mistakes of previous recruitment cycles?
Well, I don't really want to sort of — we've inherited a situation which, you know, we've inherited. It's not — it's mad, isn't it, some of the contracts that have been given out. There's some decisions that we clearly would not — and also if you look, it's quite interesting, if you look at the players that we will buy this summer that we did not buy — in other words, we're paying for. That's Antony, we're buying Antony this summer, we're buying Sancho this summer, we're buying Højlund, we're buying Casemiro — we're buying and paying for them.
Correct. I mean, the club also — it's not a light switch. In your day, if you bought a player, you bought a player and that was it, wasn't it? The club owes nearly 400 million, don't they, on players that are still in the club. 390 million, is that right?
I don't know the exact number. I know the bill that we will pay this summer is 89 million for players been signed previously. 89. So we buy no players, we write a check for 89 million pounds.
That's — I mean, you mentioned Rúben's playing style before. He has got a rare playing style in terms of the system, yeah? And I suppose I'm asking you the question: next summer you're going to have to recruit to that specific system — the wing-backs, the two players that play in behind or behind the forward, the two — are you unequivocal that you're going to make that step and back Rúben and he's going to be here at the start of next season, considering the results that have happened?
Yeah, I'm unequivocal about that. But bear in mind, I am backing the management team because, at the end of the day, it's Omar, it's Jason, it's the management team that operate Manchester United who appointed Rúben.
Then who appointed Rúben?
Omar and Jason and me made that decision, yeah.
Looking at what happened with Dan — obviously Dan came into the club and I mean I work with Danny, he headed up a transformation at the FA whilst I was there and he's done it at other clubs. What went wrong there? Because you chased him for eight months, correct? And he's done this type of job before, transformation, cultural change. Why did that not work? Knowing Dan as I do —
Well, you may know Dan better than I do. I'm sure, in fact, I'm sure you do. But I don't want to go into the details of it because I don't think it serves much — I mean, at the end of the day, it was chemistry, maybe a bit more than chemistry, but let's just say chemistry, and it didn't work.
So with you or with the other management team?
Just chemistry. And you know, again, I know it's an unpopular decision and it's seen as an error, which it was, and it was an error. But again, I think slightly in our defense, we did recognize it as being something that would not work and therefore we decided we would make a change. What would have been far easier, because of the scrutiny that we knew we would get in the media, would have been to live with it. But I wasn't prepared to live with it. So I think that has to be part of our mentality at Manchester United. Even though we're having to make unpopular decisions, if we think it's the right thing, then we're going to do it.
And you know there's quite a lot of unpopular — I know, the lunches and things like that, you know, there are unpopular decisions, but let's come on to those. Look, I want to talk to you about those things. Obviously 15 million pounds were spent to remove Erik and Dan, which are expensive errors.
I'm just going to take two or three examples. 40,000 was taken away from the Former Players Association. Now that's not the players that played under Sir Alex Ferguson or even in the last 10 years — the players from the 1960s and 70s. I look at that and have a little bit of knowledge of the club, obviously haven't been there for 25, 30 years. I just look at that and I think it's 40,000 from players who are giving a lot back to the local community. They're obviously big supporters of United. Why not look at that 40,000 and put Harry Maguire and Bruno in a dinner, sell a thousand tickets for 30, 40, 50 quid, raise the money through a dinner, maybe do a raffle and auction, give the ex-players the money and do it in a way whereby you're not looking like it's a cruel decision, which it is. Why would that not be looked at? As a shopping list of things — oh, that's got a health warning to it. They're former players, they're people who do a lot of good. I'm not talking about — this isn't my area, the players from the 70s and 80s. Why would that decision be made?
Well, nobody suggested that because I would have — I would have supported that.
But Jim, that alarms me because if people aren't suggesting that to you at the club then I —
I don't think the people at the club — they're not, you know, most of the people at the club, they're not cruel or heartless people.
But it's 40 grand. Yeah, I know, but —
You know, Harry and Bruno can just turn up for a dinner, raise 50, 60, 70 grand for them. Why didn't the current players put a grand each in for them? You know, things like that — if it came to me and I was looking at a decision like that and these guys who've been putting so much time into the club over so many years, it just looks — why can't we reinstate that? Well, maybe we can, I don't know. I can have a look at it. I'm not aware at that level of — honestly, I'm not aware of that level of detail, to be honest with you. I think though, you know, if you just step back just for a second and look at the bigger — I mean, you know, the philosophy is if you look after the pennies, the pounds look after themselves. So I don't think we can say, well, we can overlook the little things, we just attack the big things. I don't like that because that confuses people and ultimately people then start to make the wrong decisions about the big things. And I think that philosophy of watch and spend the money like it's your own money — but you're right, the club has got community responsibilities as well. And it's sort of part of the community.
Yeah, but if I can say that Manchester United has lost money for the last seven years and it's something like — in the last four years alone it's lost 330 million pounds. It's horrific.
