The Tata Journey of Leading with Purpose | N. Chandrasekaran

Please settle down. So as I mentioned, this is day two. We had a wonderful day yesterday with Professor Ranjay Gulati of the Harvard Business School talking about why purpose is critical. And today we'll have Mr. Natarajan Chandrasekaran, Chairman of the Board of Tata Sons, and he'll be talking about the Tata journey. I'm really looking forward to it. But before we get going, let me make a few announcements. First, in terms of safety, both here in Kemka as well as in Godrej, we have three exits: up in front, in the middle, and at the back. So in case of an emergency, please make sure to take these exits. There are plenty of them, and please do so in an orderly manner. Needless to say, please mute your microphones. Please settle down. We'll have a half-hour talk by Mr. Chandrasekaran followed by a Q&A. The questions can be asked after the half-hour talk. Here's the way in which you can ask the questions: if you're online, there is an 'Ask Questions' button, and you can use that button to ask questions. If you're in Kemka or in Godrej, please raise your hand and someone will get to you, and you can ask questions in person. So those were the announcements I wanted to make. Once again, welcome to this fascinating and I hope wonderful series called CEO Dialogues: Leading with Purpose. And now it is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Harish Manwani. Harish is the Chairperson of the Governing Board of ISB. He's been a fantastic chairperson of the governing board. He's also the Senior Operating Partner of the Blackstone Group, and he's a director of several organizations including Tata Sons. Also very importantly, he was formerly the Chief Operating Officer of Unilever, the global goods company. So Harish would introduce and then ask a few questions. So without much ado, let me introduce Harish and request him to come to the stage. Thank you.

Thank you, Ram. Can you hear me? Good morning. It's great to see that we have a full house, and I can see that there are some other people who haven't bought tickets for the show who are sort of jostling at the gates. But thank you to all of you for being here. I'm really happy and delighted that we had a great opening yesterday with Professor Ranjay Gulati, and all I can say is that the best is yet to come. I have real pleasure in introducing Chandra, a friend, a colleague, and above all, the custodian of the largest and most trusted corporate brand in India and arguably probably in the whole world. I say this with due consideration. Chandra is also a Padma Bhushan and, according to me, enviably a six-star finisher of the World Marathon Majors. Chandra joined the Tata group in TCS 30 years ago straight from university and rose to be one of its most successful CEOs in its very successful history. In 2017, he took over as the Chairman of Tata Sons, the holding company of the Tata group, the largest conglomerate in India, associated with a diverse set of businesses from salt to software, as they say. The group has 29 publicly listed companies and a combined market cap of over 300 billion dollars in 2022, operates out of 100 countries, and employs nearly a million people. Most importantly, the history of the Tata group has been closely intertwined with the history of nation-building in India for the last 150 years. And here is the interesting fact: two-thirds of the group's ownership is held by philanthropic trusts which support education, health, livelihood generation, art and culture, and everything Indian. This is a corporate, a string of pearls held together by a common vision, a common purpose, and shared values. Over to Chandra, the extraordinary marathon man at the helm of affairs of this very extraordinary group. So to you, Chandra, over to you now.

Well, thank you very much, Chandra. Even though I have heard this story every time, I listen to it and I just feel so inspired by the fact that in India we have a group like Tatas, and importantly, the fact that I can be associated with it in a small way. Just a couple of questions before we open it up to the public. The first is, I just want you to spell out what is the essence of being a Tata company. And importantly, I referred to Tatas as a string of pearls. You have a huge number of companies, 29 publicly listed companies and so many unlisted companies. What is it that holds this, or what's the glue that holds these companies together, and how do you ensure a shared purpose?

Thank you, Chandra. And I think for this audience, the thing to remember is that you have to qualify to be a Tata company. Irrespective of whether it's a majority shareholding or a minority shareholding, you cannot use the brand Tatas by just paying a royalty. You have to adhere to this common essence or common values. So thank you, Chandra, for that. And my final question before we open it up to this very enthusiastic audience is: you've now been at the helm of affairs at Tata Sons since 2017. What do you think must remain the same, and importantly, what do you think needs to change going forward?

Thank you, Chandra. I can see who you're referring to as others. And with that, over to you, Ram, to bring in the questions from the audience.

Thank you, Harish, and thank you, Mr. Chandrasekaran. It seems clear to me that in many ways, the Tata journey and the word Tata itself is a synonym for purpose. It goes without saying, a synonym, and that this story is woven into the fabric of India itself. I'm sure many of us have connections to the Tatas, perhaps studied in these institutions. I myself am a child of TIFR and a student of the Tata Institute or IISc in the instruments. And with that, we have three audiences here. We have this live audience here in Kemka, we have a live audience in Godrej which is in Mohali, and we also have an online audience. The process I'll follow is: I'll ask a question first from Kemka. Please raise your hand and keep your question crisp. Then I'll turn to Godrej, and again please keep a question crisp. And then I'll be looking at the online questions that have come up. We have 20 minutes, which is enough time for some interesting questions. Let me start with... Please go ahead. And quickly introduce yourself.

Hi, yes. Thank you so much for this session. My name is Shadria. I have a question. As an ardent follower of a lot of leaders from across the world, including Mr. Jamsetji Tata and Ratan Tata, there's a question that I've had for a lot of years that I perhaps want to ask today. My question is that we talked a lot extensively about the stories of the Tatas and what all Mr. Jamsetji Tata and the Tatas have been able to achieve. However, it cannot be a one-person job, right? So my question is: what are the ethos, not the brand ethos, but the organizational ethos of the Tatas that help the company hold it together and constantly expand across generations?

Okay, thank you. Let me turn to the Godrej Auditorium in Mohali. Is there a question there? Please keep your question crisp. Let's hear a question from Mohali. And while that's getting set up, let me take another question here from Kemka. Go ahead, and again please make sure to keep your question crisp and introduce yourself. And then I'll turn to the online audience after I talk to Godrej.

Hello. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, that's okay. And because you have an ISB t-shirt, I guess you get to ask a question. Go ahead.

So my question is very specific to TAS, which is the Tata Administrative Services, a very critical part of the Tata group and essentially in the leadership position. How does Mr. Chandra see TAS going beyond from here, essentially after COVID? And when can we see a lot of new colleges joining the TAS because until now we do not have TAS at ISB? So the question is very precise: how can we include diversity in TAS?

Thank you, Mr. Chandrasekaran. We'll send you the name of that person who asked the question on TAS. But there's a lady in the middle who had a question. There's a question right in the middle. Go ahead with the COVID mask, which is wonderful. Go ahead, please.

Thank you for the session, sir. I am with ISB. So my question is as follows: how do you motivate people, especially of this generation, to focus on both nation building as well as the growth of your firm? Because there's this increased focus on growth hacking and profit-making strategy. So how do you motivate people to look at the larger picture?

Sorry, I just like to add to Chandra's answer. You know, this has to be an end and approach. In other words, you could do whatever you think you need to do, but make sure you do it right and you do a good business. It doesn't matter as long as you do good business or you do the right things. To my mind, that is very, very important.

Thank you, Mr. Chandrasekaran and Harish. Now let's move over to the Godrej Auditorium, Mohali, where we have a large group there. Can I have one or two questions from there, please? Again, please make sure to keep your question crisp.

I, uh, good morning, sir. I have a three-part question, but they're all related. By the way, my name is Shivam. I forgot to introduce myself.

If you could speak louder, we can't hear you here.

Can you hear me now? Yes. Good morning. My name is Shivam. I have a three-part question, but they're all related. Number one: culture and values tend to get diluted with scale. So how does an organization preserve these as you scale and across time? Number two: walking this path is...

If you could just ask one question, articulate it clearly, that would be much appreciated.

I think his question is: how do you not dilute culture and values when you scale?

Thank you, thank you very much. And there's another question from the Mohali audience.

Hi, I'm Parul. I work in the staff at ISB. A very good morning from the Mohali campus of ISB. My question is: I'll go back to what Harish asked right in the beginning, and you spoke about the code of conduct, the ethics code at Tata, the commitment to affirmative action, and of course you said specifically that it's not a signature process we follow, it's ingrained deeply. Now today when we build organizations, how do you maintain that and also be very agile? And how do you decide that it's not a reactive approach? And of course it's proactive for Tatas, and that's the reason you sustained and grown so well. So can you just elaborate and give some more examples and make us understand how does Tata do it so well? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chandrasekaran. There's a question from the online audience. Many questions, of which this is an interesting one. This is from Kanto Ghosh asking a question: 'There used to be a time when the Tatas used to set up industry towns like Jamshedpur and Mithapur which generated livelihoods for the community. In this new age industry, is there a scope for such activities, or is this in a different form in terms of community building? For example, could a big sprawling TCS township be possible in Bengaluru or Hyderabad?' Any thoughts on that?

Thank you. And then one final question, which I guess is an inevitable question. This is about AI, and actually there are many questions on this, but I'll just summarize it: with AI, ChatGPT being the talk of the town, how is the Tata group seeing this technology in light of purpose? Any thoughts on how purpose and AI can be combined, including responsible AI and so on?

Thank you very much, Mr. Chandrasekaran, for that fascinating talk and for addressing the questions, some of which were unusual, I think. Thank you very much. Any concluding words? Oh, well, Chandra, thank you very much, as always, for a very insightful and very open and frank conversation. Really appreciated. I know that you were traveling or you're just back, and thank you for making that time in your busy schedule. Thank you on behalf of all of us.

Thank you. And just for the audience, we'll take a five-minute break and then we'll have a session with Mr. Harish Manwani on leadership and purpose. But we'll just do a quick five-minute stretch break. The audience is invited to stay; the online audience, should we just continue? Okay, I should say we'll just continue. Okay, can we have your attention? Do you folks want a five-minute break? Okay, just five minutes, please make sure it's five minutes, yeah, a stretch break. Let's call it a stretch break. Don't disappear. Your attendance will be recorded post the session also, so please make sure you come back.

I love some questions, yes.

Guys, it's just a five-minute break, please be back on time. Don't leave, please. Yeah, you need to get your attendance registered while leaving. Your attendance will not be counted if it's not registered post the session. Please. Oh my God.

I hope everyone settled at Godrej. We also have overflow theaters, people there, and an online audience. So let's get going. The final session of today: let me turn it over to Mr. Harish. Harish, quiet please. Thank you.

Well, good morning again. I hope that the previous session of Chandrasekaran was insightful for all of you and good learning. I must say, I really mean it: even though I sit on the board of Tata Sons, every time I listen to the Tata story, I am absolutely convinced that leading with purpose can also be good business. And I hope that's the message that you got from that session. What I'm going to talk to you about is a more broad-based discussion on leadership, and really based on my own learnings of having worked in the industry for a period of 100 years, I guess. So these are lessons in leadership, and most of them are my own, and you are free to agree or disagree — it doesn't really matter. And before I get started on that, I think it's important to understand the context of the world that we live in. I am really reminded of a 1917 saying by Lenin during the Russian Revolution where he says, 'There are decades when nothing happens, and then there are weeks when decades happen.' And I think in many ways that's the world we live in: there are weeks every week when decades are happening. In other words, it's not about change that's different in the world; it's the rate of change. I want to give you two examples. All of you have heard of Moore's Law — computing power will double every two years exponentially. And just when we thought it was reaching the end of how many transistors you could fit on a microchip, what do you have now? Quantum computing. So there is no end to the kind of change you will see. Another example: the Human Genome Project was started as a collaborative project across the world to sequence the human genome. It started in 1990, a 14-year project with the best scientists in the world. In the first seven years, they could only do one percent of genome sequencing — one percent — and they almost declared the project dead. In the next six years, they finished the project, so 99 percent got done in the next six years, one year ahead of schedule. And finally, a great example of change: six months ago, most of you here hadn't even heard of ChatGPT. You had heard of AI, machine learning, but not ChatGPT, and suddenly it looks like the flavor of the month. So that's the world we are living in: a world where the rate of change is not just exponential but unpredictable. We live in a VUCA world: volatile, uncertain, complex, and very ambiguous. In this world, you've got to remember that if you have to survive, you have to constantly reinvent yourself. Take an example: an S&P 500 company. What is the average life of an S&P 500 company? 21 years — correct, give him some marks! 21 years is the average life. Guess what it was 50 years ago? It was 80 years. So companies survive for 70-80 years. That's the world we live in. That's one context: change. The other bit: there are two or three mega trends you have to find in all this noise. The first mega trend: we do live in a very resource-stressed world. We are consuming almost the equivalent of 1.3 to 1.5 planets, and I don't need to tell you intelligent folks that we have only one planet. If the developing world starts consuming like the developed world, we will need three planets. So we have to accept that business models going forward have to be about doing more with less. The second: inequity in the world — a handful of people own most of the wealth. Now you may say what's wrong with that? We are studying how to make money, of course. But the fact is you have to be aware of the world you live in: a world with inequity like this will always be a stressed world. That leads me to my third point: there is a huge mistrust of business in the world. Every single Edelman survey will tell you that people do not trust businesses, and that is a challenge for businesses: how do you get the world to trust you? And finally, the big change is the evolution of technology, which is changing the way we work, the way we entertain ourselves, the way we lead our lives. At the same time, it's a double-edged weapon because it's also changing the nature of work and will create disruption. One study says 30 percent of people could be unemployed if you just follow the technology trends. Now, we've always heard this before — there is hope — but this is the context of the world: rapid change, inequity, mistrust, tribalism, and the double-edged sword of technology. In that context, what are some of the lessons in leadership? These are entirely my own; you can agree or disagree. Even in a world that is so stressed and unpredictable, my first lesson is: no growth, no future. If businesses can't grow, if countries can't grow, if people can't grow, there is no future. But there are dimensions to growth. You need to make sure you can grow the business consistently, profitably, and competitively — I call these the three G's of growth. All three are critical. At the heart of growth lies innovation. But innovation is a much-maligned word. People always talk about innovation when they can't think of any other solution. Clayton Christensen from Harvard gave a very good definition: innovation is doing things differently that create value. Anything you do differently that creates value is innovation. So it's not just about those few poets in an organization putting their feet up gazing into the horizon; it's also people who work day to day thinking of processes and how to do them differently. That is innovation. I always say: if you want to grow, business as usual on growth, but always business unusual on costs. If you don't generate the fuel to grow and invest, you can't grow. So it's a virtuous cycle of innovation — disruptive ideas, but also innovation to get productivity efficiencies. Great companies are always focused on growth irrespective of the environment and always find a way to redefine the market so they can grow. I call it the Rubik's Cube approach. At Unilever, I went to Mexico where we had a 60% market share in deodorants, and they said, 'How can we grow?' I said, 'If you look by geography, what is our market share in the east of Mexico?' They said 40%. 'Between male and female, our male share is 65%, female is 45%.' In terms of product form, roll-ons were 65%, sticks were 35%. So you can always define the market to grow the business. So always go for growth, but there's a virtuous cycle from also being focused on costs and innovating for growth and for costs — both equally important. Now I come to a very important bit: you have to remain relevant to all stakeholders. Business is not about only satisfying shareholders. Your biggest stakeholder is the communities you serve. The new mantra is the four G's of growth: consistent, competitive, profitable, and responsible growth. Responsible growth is very important. You heard a lot about purpose. At the end of the day, the communities you serve are the reason you exist. Henry Ford said business is not a bonanza; business is a service. And you heard Chandra talk about what JRD Tata said about business and communities. Stay relevant to all stakeholders. That brings me to my third lesson: in this world, the medium term is dead. What matters is the long term and the here and now. In a world that is so choppy and volatile, you must always have a sense of your destination — where you are trying to go, what is your purpose. The long term is like navigating a ship: if you don't know where you're going, you may land up somewhere else. At the same time, managing the here and now dynamically in a VUCA world is critical. The long term is relevant, the short term is relevant, but the medium term is as good as the exercise you do on paper. My only advice for three-year plans: do it on a rolling basis, dynamically, because things change. My fourth lesson: strategy is execution, execution is strategy. Everyone understands the importance of the big picture, the strategy. Very few understand the importance of pixels. No pixels, no picture. Great organizations understand both picture and pixels. The great definition of this conversion from strategy to execution is the ability of an organization to convert a plan into a P&L. That is the differential equation. Strategy by definition is a divergent exercise. If you don't know how to do strategy, a consultant will do it for you. Execution? No one can do it for you; you have to do it. Strategy is simple: making choices. If you have 100 things to do, how do you select the three? Execution is the art of ensuring you can take a plan and convert it into a P&L. Unfortunately, in every organization, there is that hourglass effect where things get choked in the middle because people either don't understand the choices or are confused about how to execute. So remember: strategy is execution, execution is strategy. Fifth lesson: everyone talks about continuous improvement. Great organizations move from continuous improvement to continuous transformation. There is no such thing as moments of transformation. Don't wait for a crisis. Every year, you must ensure continuous improvement to grow your core business and continuous transformation to create the future. Chandra talked about creating new businesses — digital, electronics manufacturing, semiconductors. I call it bending the curve. First, take care of your base momentum; if your core doesn't grow, you have no license to do anything else. But constantly address where the puck is going. You need to build your core and at the same time create the growth engines of the future. This is one of the most important lessons. From Xerox to Kodak, they focused on the base momentum but didn't bend the curve. Sixth lesson: how do you create a horizontal culture? This phrase is used by the CEO of Blackstone where I work. He says Blackstone must always have a horizontal culture. That means an organization structure based on outcomes, not on hierarchy. Vertical organizations are based on hierarchy. I spent a lot of my life at Unilever — great company, but verticalized. In vertical organizations, you constantly have a matrix to navigate, and a matrix by definition goes counterintuitive to agility. Agility is the new currency. Getting things 80% right and doing it quickly is more important than 100% right. You need a culture that is outcome oriented and moves with agility. Easier said than done, but many organizations do this. They are organized around outcomes. I call it creating tables: great organizations create tables of decision makers and shuffle these tables quickly depending on the outcome you want. You need talent, internal and external, deployed on solving problems with speed. In every big organization, there is the interface of the matrix. A large number of people hide in these interfaces — they are called coordinators. When you travel on the London Tube, you hear 'mind the gap.' In organizations, most people who don't have anything to do hide in the gaps. They are hiding between those who do real work and those who coordinate. When I was at Hindustan Lever as a young branch manager in Calcutta, there was a stalwart, A. C. Chakravarti — we called him Sir — who ran a big factory. He told me, 'Harish, there are only two types of people who matter: one who makes soap and one who sells soap. Everyone else is an overhead.' I used that lesson throughout my career. Whenever I went to a country as global CEO of Unilever, I asked what percentage of resources are upfront selling and what percentage are actually making and supporting the business. In large organizations, 50-60% of people do these two activities; 40% are minding the gap. So horizontal culture is a leadership lesson. Seventh lesson: every company is a technology company. You are either a user of technology, a maker of technology, or an enabler. Anyone who thinks they won't be impacted by technology is living in cuckoo land. Every business will get disrupted, disaggregated, and can do better by embracing technology. Ask yourself, wherever you work: am I embracing technology? Eighth lesson: caring is a competitive advantage. Two aspects: developing people — upskilling them so they can operate in a VUCA world. If you're a 737 pilot, can you fly a Dreamliner? No. You need training. Similarly, I grew up as a marketer at Hindustan Lever, but what people watch and where they buy has changed. I no longer have a license to operate as a marketer unless I'm trained for it. The second aspect is: when there is a crisis, that's the time to raise your game and care for people. COVID was a perfect example. Companies that responded brilliantly by looking after employees — retaining them, creating a safe environment — came out stronger. So caring is a competitive advantage. Finally, leadership matters; you matter. What is the role of a leader? Leaders have followers. If you don't have followers, you're not a leader, just a pace setter. To be a good leader, you need followership. Two roles: give energy when you walk into a room — do you leave people energized so they can do more than they thought, or do you leave a room where people say 'this guy sucks energy'? The job of a great leader is to give energy. The second job is to be the custodian of the reputation of the organization. You become the custodian when you create a purpose-driven organization that gives energy, makes people wake up. People don't wake up because you sell products; I worked for a company that sold soap and soup — not a reason to wake up. But the way we sold them, the way we impacted lives through hygiene, health, nutrition, made a difference. Purpose gives energy, and values protect reputation. New age leaders are all about purpose-driven and values-led. That's the new mantra. I'll end by saying: Jim Collins wrote about 'Good to Great.' I disagree. I paraphrase: let's raise the goal from great to good. Companies that produce great financial performance but also good for the societies and communities we serve. Thank you.

Thank you. We have another 20 minutes for Q&A. It's about 11:11. I'm going to follow the following process: questions from the audience here in Chembur, and I think a little careful about minding the gap, I'll take audio questions only from Mohali, and we also have people online, so we'll take some questions there. We have hundreds of people online, hundreds in Mohali, hundreds here. Let me start with a question from the audience here. Anyone? Please raise your hand. Any questions on what Harish talked about? Go ahead. If we can get a microphone over to her. Please give your name and question.

I think you can talk in it or if you can speak loudly. It's not working. No, no, no. Yeah, it should. Yeah, go ahead. No, why don't you give another mic? There we go. Let's try that mic. I'm coming to business school after six and a half years in literature, having taught high school. The very first time I started with the pre-reads, I heard this growth concept and I thought to myself: how does that sit with sustainability? How can growth and such a manic focus on just improving, increasing, progressing sit with sustainability? I would really like an answer to that. Thank you.

Sure. If you recall, I spoke about four dimensions of growth, and the last very important dimension is responsible growth. Part of that responsibility is that you cannot grow indiscriminately at the cost of your climate and environment. You have to be responsible in the way you grow the business. But the solution does not lie in stopping growth. Just to give you an example: what does the developed world want from the developing world like China and India? They want you not to consume anymore because you have a polluted environment, but they are already at a certain stage. Our job is not to stop people's livelihoods or their ability to improve their standard of living; that's wrong. Our job is to make sure we can do that in a responsible way — less is more. That's why the whole idea of net zero and going green is important. When Unilever decided we were going to double our business and at the same time reduce our environmental impact by half, that's a twin commitment. You can't make one commitment or the other. So it's about responsible growth, but you cannot forgo growth and say the best way to not create any problem for the environment is to close down your business. That's not a solution.

Right. Another question?

If you could either keep it close to your... yes, yeah. This question might seem a little bit different from all the others that have been asked, but I genuinely do believe that when you reach the scale and the leadership level that you have, you require a lot of investment in yourself over the years. Also, it blows my mind that you're 70 years old — you do not look like it. Could you please talk about the efforts that you took to inculcate any heavy investments in yourself, whether it's your health or your mental ability, etc.?

That's a great question. Firstly, I am only celebrating the 40th anniversary of my 30th birthday. So I don't know. This idea of aging — I don't want to get into it, but you can go to TED Talks. Aging is relative. We talk about physiological age, but the most important thing is to remain active. When I was finishing my career at Unilever, I had a choice of going to the Bahamas or Goa and reading newspapers, or doing other stuff. I said I must do other stuff because I want to constantly keep myself stimulated. And probably more important: I said I must do things where I can input rather than only output. I have seen many in my position who go to several boards and have biscuits and tea and talk about how they did it in their company. I didn't want to be part of that. The boards I selected were boards where I had a lot of learning to do. One of the first boards I joined was Qualcomm — the maker of semiconductor chips. To be quite frank, I understand soap and soup, but chips? No, not really. There was a glossary prepared for me of 400 terms so I could understand the recession. You may ask why they wanted me on the board: because I bring something to the party — I know how to run a global business, but I don't know anything about that technology. I am on the board of Gilead Sciences, a biotech company leading in virology and specialist oncology treatments like CAR-T therapy and cell therapy. What am I telling you? I teach at business schools — I'm associated with ISB — because there's a lesson here: as long as you are learning, you won't age. That's the first thing. And your second question — which was your first one — I forgot. And that happens because I'm really old. What was it? Sorry, what was your point? You know, actually, not enough. I totally agree I do keep myself very active, but I do think it is — and by the way, I am a little more controlled in what I consume, and I'm not talking about alcohol. But I am really sort of — maybe I should do a lot more exercise because they always say the best antidote for longevity and good health is exercise. I do some, but I go into sort of fits and starts. I would give myself a C on that front.

Right. And while we're preparing a question from Godrej, let me request the ISB team at Godrej to have a question ready. Meanwhile, Harish, let me ask you a question: who is your role model as a leader? Could you describe what that leader looks, does, smells, feels, talks like?

Role models and leadership do change. There are stages in your life where you have different role models. I have had many mentors in my working life — people without whose support and mentorship I wouldn't have done what I did. But my personal role model, I would say — this man, be either right or some — I have two role models. One is my father, who passed away in 1996. He is my role model because at 96 he was the most independent man I've ever known. His password, by the way, when he passed I only realized then was 'wonderful.' He was hopelessly optimistic, and that's what I like about him: the kind of life he led, the hardships, but he made everything out of it. He was a very bright student, had to give up his engineering studies — he was the first scholar, a scholarship holder in engineering in the village he lived in pre-partition. Then partition came, he had to leave because he was the elder of the family, gave up his studies for three years, then joined college to finish his engineering in what is now India. I love the way he told my daughters — I have two girls — he told one of them who loves books and has lots of books, 'You know, I finished my entire engineering graduation without owning a single book. Everything happened in the library.' And he was a gold medalist. He had a choice between taking a gold medal and some embossed books with the university emblem, or taking cash. He said no choice, how to cash? So I like that he remained optimistic and fiercely independent. My second role model is my wife. She is a wonderful person. She had a couple of serious health episodes, and the way she managed them — I don't think I would have been able to do that because I am a good-time man. I can manage good times, but to think of someone who can manage a personal crisis and manage the family was fantastic. So my two permanents: my father and my wife. And then many mentors throughout my career.

Wonderful, thank you. And if I can take an audio question from Go… a question from the Godrej auditorium, and Mohali, let's have a question from there.

Good morning, sir. I'm Rohan. So I had your seventh point in mind: every company is a technology company. Keeping that in mind, living in an era of digital revolution and AI optimization — we spoke about that earlier. As a leader, how do you handle employee welfare keeping job loss in mind and the transition happening from man to machine? How do you tackle that?

Well, we heard your question. How do you manage employee welfare keeping in mind the transition to AI and technology? There is only one way: skill them for tomorrow. We often don't do this in time; we keep it too late and too little. Great companies have a point of view — something I didn't mention in my leadership lessons. All the great people I've worked with had a point of view about business, about where the future was. The only way to prepare employees is if you have a point of view of where the world is going. Today there is a whole chatter on AI, on ChatGPT. No pun intended. The question is: how many people know what to do? I was one of the beta users of ChatGPT. I loved it. I asked it to write a poem for a friend who loves cigars and smoking and drinking, and it wrote a brilliant poem. But so what? So have a point of view. Number two: if you are interested in employee welfare, it is not about giving people free lunch. Employee welfare is making them more employable. That's important.

Thank you. And here's an online question from Akanto Ghosh. Interesting question: how can a pace setter, a top performer, inspire colleagues to follow them instead of feeling threatened? And how can the pace setter continue high performance while leading the pack?

Very good question. I spoke about that. There is a stage in your career early on where having the answers is important. Then comes a stage where asking the questions and giving people solutions when they want it is important. You don't empower people by giving them solutions all the time. Firstly, you may not be right. Number two, that's not the way to run organizations. If you are a pace setter, you have to give up some old habits very quickly. All of us — you smart folks — will work in companies where sometimes you say, 'My God, this person is really slow.' They are not slow; they just happen to be thinking differently. Have patience. When you get into leadership positions, always refrain from giving solutions. Ask the questions. If someone walks into your room or your desk for an answer, don't let them go without helping them get their answer. But don't always give people, 'I'll tell you what you have to do tomorrow.' You make people lazy. You don't want people to think. So let a thousand flowers bloom under you.

Thank you. And one final question. Actually, it's a common pattern in many of the online questions also asked commonly in classrooms. Many of the concepts we talk about like horizontal culture and collaboration are clearly something we've lived and learned, but many organizations are hierarchical. Often we have a boss who is very hierarchical, very difficult to deal with. So what we learn in business schools about horizontal cultures and collaborative organizations — how can we put it into practice when the whole environment is not conducive?

Bosses are a necessary evil. All of us have lived with bosses. But on a serious note, just because you have a boss doesn't mean it's bad. They bring some experience. My point is: if you believe you don't enjoy the work you do, the people you work with, or the boss you work with, don't work there. I have to give you a binary answer. On the other hand, all of you will become bosses one day. What is that phrase? You will become bosses. Just remember: bosses are more often than not well-intentioned because they are more experienced and they like to see results, but they may be in a hurry. Have patience. Make sure when you interact with your boss, your boss also gets something out of it. See if you can also make your boss a little bit better. Try it; it may work.

Thank you. Your boss is also human. And that brings us to the end. I want to just remind you: tomorrow we start at 11:30. 11:30 to 12:30 we have Alan Jope, CEO of Unilever, the global CEO of Unilever, so we'll have another wonderful session tomorrow. In the meanwhile, thank you very much, sir. Thank you.

Thank you. And thank you to all the different audiences — the online audience, the audience of Mohali, and you guys. Thank you all very much. See you tomorrow. Thank you.