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C. Wei
Chairman & Chief Executive Officer, TSMC (Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing)

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co Ltd ($TSM) Q4 2024 Earnings Call

🎥 Jan 16, 2025 📺 Castify Earnings Call ⏱ 71m
Okay now I'll try next next two quarters uh for the coast capacity TSMC has been very aggressive in uh expanding the capacity ...
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About C. Wei

C. Wei, Chairman and CEO of TSMC, has been actively addressing the company's capacity expansion and AI-driven demand in recent earnings calls. In the Q2 2026 call, he announced an additional $100 billion investment in Arizona to build fabs for 2-nanometer and advanced packaging technologies, citing strong multi-year demand from US customers. He stated that the AI mega trend continues to drive robust demand for leading-edge silicon, and that TSMC's conviction in the multi-year AI outlook remains very high. In earlier calls, Wei noted that TSMC's wafer supply, not power consumption, is currently the bottleneck for AI infrastructure, and that he has spent significant time speaking directly with cloud service providers to validate demand before committing to large capital expenditures. Wei has also addressed geopolitical and market uncertainties. In the Q2 2025 call, he said TSMC had not seen changes in customer behavior due to tariff policies but acknowledged risks to consumer-related segments. He reaffirmed that TSMC is not engaged in discussions regarding joint ventures or technology licensing with other companies. Regarding overseas expansion, Wei stated that TSMC is executing its plans in Japan and Europe as scheduled, and that these investments in specialty technology are not competing with leading-edge expansion in the US. He described the current environment as one of "fragmented globalization," where overseas fab costs are higher for all manufacturers, but TSMC aims to remain cost-effective through manufacturing scale and technology leadership.

Source: AI-verified profile updated from C. Wei's recent appearances. Browse all interviews →

Transcript (15 segments)
J
Jeff Su0:00
Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to TSMC's fourth quarter 2024 earnings conference and conference call. This is Jeff Su, TSMC's director of investor relations, and your host for today. Today's event is being webcast live through TSMC's website at www.tsmc.com, where you can also download the earnings release materials. If you are joining us through the conference call, your dial-in lines are in listen-only mode. The format for today's event will be as follows. First, TSMC's senior vice president and CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, will summarize our operations in the fourth quarter 2024, followed by our guidance for the first quarter 2025. Afterwards, Mr. Huang and TSMC's chairman and CEO, Dr. C.C. Wei, will jointly provide the company's key messages. Then we will open both the floor and the line for the question and answer session. As usual, I would like to remind everybody that today's discussions may contain forward-looking statements that are subject to significant risk and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ materially from those contained in the forward-looking statements. Please refer to the safe harbor notice that appears in our press release. And now, I would like to turn the microphone over to TSMC CFO, Mr. Wendell Huang, for the summary of operations and the current quarter guidance.
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Wendell Huang1:38
Thank you, Jeff. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My presentation will start with financial highlights for the fourth quarter of 2024. After that, I will provide the guidance for the first quarter of 2025. Fourth quarter revenue increased 14.3% sequentially in NT supported by strong demand for our industry-leading 3-nanometer and 5-nanometer technologies. Gross margin increased by 1.2 percentage points sequentially to 59% mainly reflecting a higher capacity utilization rate and productivity gains partially offset by the dilution of 3-nanometer ramp-up. With operating leverage, total operating expenses accounted for 10% of net revenue. Thus operating margin increased by 1.5 percentage points sequentially to 49%. Overall, our fourth quarter EPS was 14.45 NT and ROE was 36.2%. Now, let's move on to revenue by technology. 3-nanometer process technology contributed 26% of wafer revenue in the fourth quarter. 5-nanometer and 7-nanometer accounted for 34% and 14% respectively. Advanced technologies, defined as 7-nanometer and below, accounted for 74% of wafer revenue. On a full-year basis, 3-nanometer accounted for 18% of 2024 wafer revenue. 5-nanometer, 34%. 7-nanometer, 17%. Advanced technologies accounted for 69% of total wafer revenue, up from 58% in 2023. Moving on to revenue contribution by platform. HPC increased 19% quarter over quarter to account for 53% of our fourth quarter revenue. Smartphone increased 17% to account for 35%. IoT decreased 15% to account for 5%. Automotive increased 6% to account for 4%. DCE decreased 6% to account for 1%. On a full year basis, HPC increased 58% year on year. Smartphone, IoT, automotive, DCE increased 23%, 2%, 4%, and 2% respectively in 2024. Overall, HPC accounted for 51% of our 2024 revenue. Smartphone accounted for 35%. IoT accounted for 6%. And automotive accounted for 5%. Moving on to the balance sheet, we ended the fourth quarter with cash and marketable securities of 2.4 trillion NT, or 74 billion US dollars. On the liability side, current liabilities increased by 184 billion NT, mainly due to the increase of 71 billion in accounts payable and increase of 99 billion in the accrued liabilities and others. In terms of financial ratios, accounts receivable turnover days declined by one day to 27 days, while inventory days decreased by seven days to 80 days, primarily due to shipment of N3 and N5 wafers. Regarding cash flow and CAPEX, during the fourth quarter, we generated about 620 billion NT in cash from operations, spent 362 billion in CapEx, and distributed 104 billion for the first quarter 24 cash dividend. Overall, our cash balance increased 241 billion NT to 2.1 trillion at the end of the quarter. In US dollar terms, our fourth quarter capital expenditures total 11.2 billion. Now, let me recap our performance in 2024. Due to the strong demand for our 3-nanometer and 5-nanometer process technologies, we continue to outperform the foundry industry in 2024. Our revenue increased 30% in US dollar terms to 90 billion US, or increased 33.9% in NT to 2.89 trillion NT. Gross margin increased 1.7 percentage points to 56.1% mainly reflecting improvements in overall capacity utilization partially offset by 3-nanometer dilution and higher electricity cost. With operating leverage, our operating margin increased 3.1 percentage points to 45.7%. Overall, full year EPS increased 39.9% to 45.25 NT, and ROE increased 4.1 percentage points to 30.3%. On cash flow, we spent 29.8 billion US dollars, or 956 billion NT in CapEx, generated 1.8 trillion NT in operating cash flow and 870 billion in free cash flow. We pay 363 billion NT in cash dividends in 2024. Up 24.5% year-over-year. I've finished my financial summary. Now, let's turn to our current quarter guidance. We expect our business in the first quarter to be impacted by smartphone seasonality, partially offset by continued growth in AI-related demand. Based on the current business outlook, we expect our first quarter revenue to be between 25 billion and 25.8 billion US. Which represents a 5.5% sequential decline or a 34.7% year-over-year increase at the midpoint. Based on the exchange rate assumption of 1 US dollar to 32.8 NT, gross margin is expected to be between 57% and 59%. Operating margin between 46.5% and 48.5%. Regarding tax rate, our effective tax rate was 16.7% in 2024. For 2025, we expect our effective tax rate to be between 16 and 17%. This concludes my financial presentation. Now, let me turn to our key messages. I will start by talking about our fourth quarter 24 and first quarter 25 profitability. Compared to third quarter, our fourth quarter gross margin increased by 120 basis point sequentially to 59% primarily due to a higher capacity utilization rate and productivity gains partially offset by dilution from the continued ramp up of our 3 nanometer technology. We have just guided our first quarter gross margin to decrease by 100 basis point to 58% at the midpoint. This is primarily due to ramp costs associated with N2 and Kaohsiung's expansion and the start of dilution from our overseas fabs. As a reminder, six factors determine TSMC's profitability. Leadership technology development and ramp up pricing, cost reduction, technology mix, capacity utilization, and foreign exchange rate. Looking at full year 2025, given the six factors, there are a few puts I would like to share. On the one hand, we are working hard to increase our value. The dilution impact from our N3 ramp is expected to gradually reduce. And we expect our overall utilization rate to moderately increase in 2025. On the other hand, as we have said before, we forecast 2 to 3% margin dilution impact from the ramp up of our overseas fabs. The impact is less than 100 basis point in the first quarter of 25, but we expect it to grow more pronounced throughout the year as our fabs in Kumamoto and Arizona ramp up. We also expect inflationary cost, including higher electricity prices in Taiwan, to impact our gross margin by at least 1% in 2025. In addition, there are some ramp-up costs associated with N2 and further conversion of N5 to N3 capacity, which together we expect to impact our gross margin by about 1%. Finally, we have no control over the foreign exchange rate, but that may be another factor in 2025. Longer term, excluding the impact of foreign exchange rate, and considering our global manufacturing footprint expansion plan, we continue to forecast a long-term gross margin of 53% and higher is achievable. Next, let me talk about our 2025 capital budget and depreciation. Every year, our CapEx is spent in anticipation of the growth that will follow in the future years, and our CapEx and capacity planning is based on the long-term market demand profile. At TSMC, a higher level of capital expenditures is always correlated with higher growth opportunities in the following years. In 2024, we spent 29.8 billion US dollars as we continue to invest to support our customers' growth. With our strong technology leadership and differentiation, we are well positioned to capture the multi-year structural demand from the industry mega trends of 5G, AI, and HPC. In 2025, we expect our capital budget to be between 38 and 42 billion US dollars as we invest to capture the future growth. Out of the 38 to 42 billion CapEx for 2025, about 70% of the capital budget will be allocated for advanced process technologies. About 10% to 20% will be spent for specialty technologies. And about 10% to 20% will be spent for advanced packaging, testing, mask making, and others. Our depreciation expense is expected to increase by high single-digit percentage year over year in 2025. As newly incurred depreciation will be partially offset by other notes rolling off depreciation. Even as we invest for the future growth with this level of CapEx spending in 2025, we remain committed to delivering profitable growth to our shareholders. We also remain committed to a sustainable and steadily increased cash dividend per share on both an annual and quarterly basis. Now, let me turn the microphone over to CC.
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C. Wei14:35
Thank you, Wendell. Good afternoon, everyone. First, let me start with conclusion of the 2024 and our 2025's outlook. 2024 was a mixed year of recovery for the global semiconductor industry. AI related demand was strong. While other applications saw only a very mild recovery. As macro economic conditions weigh on consumer sentiment and the end market demand. Concluding 2024, the foundry 2.0 industry, which we define as all logical wafer manufacturing, packaging, testing, mask making, and others increase 6% year over year. Slightly lower than our previous forecast. Supported by strong demand for our leading-edge process technologies, TSMC's revenue increased 30% year over year in US dollar term, outperforming the foundry industry growth. Entering 2025, we expect fabless semiconductor industry inventory to have returned to a healthier level exceeding 2024. We forecast the foundry total industry to grow 10% year over year in 2025, supported by robust AI-related demand and a mild recovery in other end market segments. Supported by our technology leadership and broad customer base, we are confident we can continue to outperform the industry growth. We expect 2025 to be another strong growth year for TSMC and forecast our full year revenue to increase by close to mid-20% in US dollar term. Now, I will talk about AI demand and TSMC's long-term growth outlook. We observe robust AI-related demand from our customers throughout 2024. Revenue from AI accelerators, which we now define as AI GPU, AI ASIC, and HBM controller for AI training and inference in the data center, accounted for close to 15% of our total revenue in 2024. Even after more than tripling in 2024, we forecast our revenue from AI accelerator to double in 2025. As the strong surging AI-related demand continues. As a key enabler of AI applications, the value of our technology platform is increasing as customers are relying on TSMC to provide the most advanced process and packaging technologies at scale in the most efficient and cost-effective way. To address the structural increase in the long-term market demand profile, TSMC is working closely with our customer to plan our capacity and investing in leading-edge specialty and advanced packaging technologies to support their growth. As we have said before, TSMC employs a disciplined and thorough capacity planning system to evaluate and judge the market demand to determine the appropriate capacity to build. This is especially important when we have such high forecasted demand from AI-related business. At the same time, we are committed to earning a sustainable and healthy return that enables us to continue to invest to support our customers' growth while delivering profitable growth for our shareholders. Underpinned by our technology leadership and broad customer base, we now forecast the revenue growth from AI accelerators to approach a mid-40% CAGR for the 5-year period starting off the already higher base of 2024. We expect AI accelerators to be the strongest driver of our HPC platform growth and the largest contributor in terms of our overall incremental revenue growth in the next several years. Looking ahead, as the world's most reliable and effective capacity provider, TSMC is playing a critical and integral role in the global semiconductor industry. With our technology leadership, manufacturing excellence, and customer trust, we are well-positioned to address the growth from the industry mega trends of 5G, AI, and HPC with our differentiated technologies. For the 5-year period starting from 2024, we expect our long-term revenue growth to approach a 20% CAGR in US dollar term fueled by all four of our growth platforms which are smartphone, HPC, IoT, and automotive. Next, let me talk about our global manufacturing footprint update. All our overseas decisions are based on our customers' need as they value some geographic flexibility and the necessary level of government support. This is also to maximize the value for our shareholder. In the US, we have a long-standing good relationship with the US government dating back to even before our Arizona fab project announcement in May 2020. We have received a strong commitment and support from the US customers and the US federal, state, and city government and are making substantial progress. Building on the successful result of our earlier engineering wafer production, we were able to pull ahead the production schedule of our first fab in Arizona. Our first fab has already entered the high-volume production in 4Q '24 utilizing N4 process technology with a yield comparable to our fabs in Taiwan. We expect a smooth ramp-up process and with our strong manufacturing capability and execution, we are confident to deliver the same level of manufacturing quality and reliability from our fab in Arizona as from our fab in Taiwan. Our plans for second fab and third fab in Arizona are also on track. These fabs will utilize even more advanced technologies such as our N3, N2, and A16 based on our customers' need. There's TSMC will continue to play a critical and integral role in enabling our customers' success while remaining a key partner in enabling of the US semiconductor industry. Next, in Japan, thanks to the strong support from the Japan central, prefecture, and local government, our progress is also very good. Our first specialty technology fab in Kumamoto has started volume production at the end of 2024 with regular yield. Construction of our second fab, specialty fab, is scheduled to begin this year. In Europe, we have received strong commitment from the European Commission and German federal, state, and city government. We are progressing smoothly with our plans to build a specialty technology fab in Dresden, Germany, focusing on automotive and industrial application. In Taiwan, we continue to receive support from Taiwan government, and we are investing in and expanding our advanced technology and packaging capacities. Given the robust multiyear demand for our 3 nanometer technology, we continue to expand our 3 nanometer capacity in Tainan Science Park. We are also preparing for multiple phases of 2 nanometer fabs in both Hsinchu and Kaohsiung Science Park to support the strong structural demand from our customers. We are also expanding our advanced packaging facilities across several locations in Taiwan. As we have said before, under today's fragmented globalization environment, overseas fab costs are higher for everyone, including TSMC and all other semiconductor manufacturers. We are leveraging our fundamental competitive advantage of manufacturing technology leadership and large-scale manufacturing base to be the most efficient and cost-effective manufacturer in the region that we operate. By supporting our customers' growth, Finally, I will talk about the N2 and the A16 introduction. Our 2 nanometer and A16 technologies leads the industry in addressing the insatiable need for energy-efficient computing. And almost all the innovators are working with TSMC. We expect the number of the new tape out for 2 nanometer technology in the first 2 years to be higher than both 3 nanometer and 5 nanometer in their first 2 years. Fueled by both smartphone and HPC applications. N2 will deliver full node performance and power benefit with 10 to 15% speed improvement at the same power or 20 to 30% power improvement at the same speed. And a more than 15% chip density increase as compared with the N3E. N2 is well on track for volume production in second half of 2025 as scheduled with a ramp profile similar to N3. With our strategy of continuous enhancement, we also introduce N2P as an extension of N2 family. N2P features further performance and power benefit on top of N2. N2P will support both smartphone and HPC applications. And volume production is scheduled for second half 2026. We will also introduce A16 featuring super power rail or SPR as separate offering. TSMC's SPR is an innovative, best-in-class backside power delivery solution that is first in the industry to incorporate a novel backside metal scheme that preserves gate density and device width flexibility to maximize the product benefit. Compared with the N2P, A16 provides a further 8 to 10% speed improvement at the same power or 15 to 20% power improvement at the same speed and additional 7 to 10% chip density gain. A16 is the best suitable for specific HPC product with a complex signal route and dense power delivery network. Volume production is scheduled for second half 2026. We believe N2, N2P, A16 and its derivative will further extend our technology leadership position and enable TSMC to capture the growth opportunity well into the future. This concludes our key message and thank you for your attention.
J
Jeff Su28:01
Thank you, C.C. This concludes our prepared statements. Before we begin the Q&A session, I would like to remind everybody to please limit your questions to two at a time to allow all the participants an opportunity to ask their questions. Questions will be taken from both the floor and from the call. Should you wish to raise your question in Chinese, I will translate it to English before our management answers your question. For those of you on the call, if you would like to ask a question, please press the star then one on your telephone keypad now. If at any time you would like to remove yourself from the questioning queue please press star two. Now, we will begin the Q&A session. We'll take the first few questions here from the floor and then go to online. I think maybe left, middle, right. So, why don't we start? I think first question Coco Hariharan from JP Morgan.
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Coco Hariharan28:59
Thanks, Jeff. Happy New Year, management team. My first question is on TSMC's US future strategy. There has been a lot of changes recently. Taiwan relaxed the N-1 restriction. There was a news about that a week back. CC you met Elon Musk as well recently. So, you said there are a lot of developments that you've discussed. Your key IDM competitor seems to be struggling as well while your Arizona fab seems to be ramping up quite well. So, in light of all these, I just wanted to understand the longer-term strategy. Would you consider investing in latest node in the US because so far it has been N-1. Now, you don't have the restriction from the Taiwan government to go and invest in the latest node. What has been your feedback in whatever discussions you have had with the incoming President Trump administration because they've talked a lot about CHIPS Act and everything, but they're also supportive. Your original investment was during President Trump's first term. And lastly, I think Wendell, last time you had mentioned you're not very keen on taking over any IDM fabs. Has that thinking changed especially given TSMC has the potential to become an even more stronger partner for the US in terms of bringing up US local manufacturing? Sorry, long question.
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Jeff Su30:31
Yeah. Yes. Okay, thank you, Coco. Indeed, a very long question. I think Coco's question is looking at TSMC and our strategies in terms of global expansion, particularly in the US. He notes that Taiwan recently relaxed the N-1 rule, and C.C. Wei met with Elon Musk. Many of our large customers in the US. And our Arizona fab is ramping quite well. So his question really is on the longer term strategy. I believe three parts. Number one, what is the feedback or sort of discussions ongoing with the next administration in the US? Secondly, would we consider taking over IDM's fabs? Has that thinking changed? And last on the new node. Maybe we'll go one by one.
C
C. Wei31:22
I almost forgot your question already. Okay. First one. The technology node. Actually, it's not that we don't want to ramp up the same technology as in Taiwan. But if you look at it, the one we ramping up, introduce a new technology into manufacturing. The fab is a process so complicated. So it has to be very close to the R&D people. So the initial phase of the ramping up always come from the fab close to R&D. So in that sense, we want to ramp up the same kind of technology in US. But that practically is a little bit difficult. So Taiwan will always be first. Did that answer your question? It's not because of my N or N-1 limitation. No. It's practically we just have to ramp up a new node in Taiwan. Okay. And the second, do we change our strategy to expand faster or something. Again, this is a we always say that we build a capacity overseas is due to customers' need. If my customer has a very high demand, what should I do? I build a more fab, right? With the necessary governments' support, by the way. Okay, talking about the government, let me assure you that we have a very frank and open communication with the current government and with the future one, also. I cannot say anything more than that. Okay. What is the... IDM fab? That's my customer. And now that we again, our strategy is not based on my IDM competitors' status. They are our very good customers. I like them, and they are very important to TSMC's business, also. That's all I can say. Thank you.
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Coco Hariharan33:50
Okay. Thanks, C.C. Maybe my next question going to gross margins. So, Wendell, we are almost approaching 60% gross margin. Last cycle, we peaked at about 60% towards the peak of the cycle. You're expecting the cycle to even strengthen based on guidance that C.C. provided for both AI as well as some improvement in non-AI. So, how should we think about gross margins in this cycle? Is it realistic that we can get to more than 60% gross margin in this upcycle? And related to that, could you help us understand the US especially the US fab overseas fabs, but especially US fab dilution? What are the key factors there because as you mentioned yield is already approaching or almost close to Taiwan yield. So, is it basically cycle time is longer or is it that some other costs are much higher in the US fab because new fab depreciation is probably fairly similar compared to either Taiwan fab.
J
Jeff Su34:52
Okay. So, Coco's second question is on gross margin. Again, two parts. He notes gross margin is almost approaching 60% in 2022. The last cycle was also around this type of level. We have said that this year is another very strong growth year for TSMC. So, his question is how should we think about gross margins in this current cycle? Can we approach or get to, you know, 60 or low 60s type of again? And then the second part is more specific to the US in terms of the cost gap. What are the US fab cost factors leading to the dilution impact?
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Wendell Huang35:28
Hey, Coco. First question on the gross margin. As we said, there are six factors affecting the profitability. Every year, different factors play different roles. But for example, if the utilization is extremely high like the last cycle, it is not impossible for us to reach what you just said. And secondly, the US fab cost. There it is more expensive in the US mainly because of several reasons. Number one, the smaller scale. Number two, the higher price in the supply chain. And number three, the very early stage of the ecosystem. So, if you add all these up, as we said, 2 to 3% dilution from our overseas fabs every year in the next 5 years.
C
Coco Hariharan36:29
If I use the 2 to 3% and do some math, it feels like the overseas fab is starting at, I don't know, 10% gross margin or 5% gross margin. Just adding a factor, so obviously it's not how it works, but I'm just doing outside in. Is that the right kind of ballpark in terms of thinking about margin?
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Wendell Huang36:53
All we can share is the 2 to 3%.
C
Coco Hariharan36:59
I don't think TSMC has ever started a fab at 10% gross margin. Thank you.
J
Jeff Su37:04
Okay, thank you, Coco. We'll go to the middle, Laura Chen from Citigroup, Citibank.
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Laura Chen37:11
Thank you all and congratulations for the good result. I just want to have a more details about your review. I mean, I think people are kind of looking for your updated long-term CAGR, so I believe that 20% starting from a very