Justin McLeod ON: How To Fall In Love During Quarantine & Finding “The One” Perfect Partner

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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world thanks to each and every single one of you. Thank you for taking out time to listen, learn, and grow every single week and I deeply appreciate the amount of incredible feedback we've been getting during this time because you know that I've been trying to interview guests and give you insights that are supporting you through this tough time, whatever challenges you're going through and I really appreciate you leaving the reviews and letting me know which episode are serving you best and helping you the most. Now, today's episode is really interesting because we've talked about the medical background of COVID-19 and the changes we can make in our life there. We've talked a lot about working from home and becoming more productive from our home work offices or whatever setup that you've created and we've talked with a therapist about our mental and emotional challenges right now. And today I'm fascinated to actually bring in a new element that we haven't discussed in relation to COVID-19 and that's really understanding relationships, understanding dating, and understanding the space that we all need in our lives, which is the space of love. Now, today's guest knows a lot about that. His name is Justin McLeod. He's the founder and CEO at Hinge, the dating app designed to be deleted. He grew up in Louisville, KY and studied at Colgate University. After a few years in management consulting, he attended Harvard Business School and decided to follow his passion for connecting people. Justin founded Hinge in February 2011 with a mission to create real-life connections. As a romantic and the protagonist of a real-life love story, he was upset by the negative hookup culture dating apps had created. So, in October 2016, he relaunched Hinge to create a culture of thoughtful dating. Justin's vision for a more thoughtful experience resonated with millennials and led to the company's user base growing 400% in the last year. Welcome to the episode, Justin. Justin, thanks for doing this.

Yeah, it's great to have you here and I was just sharing with you before we started the podcast that I obviously never got to use online dating ever. The closest I got to was an app called Hi5, which was pre-Facebook. But a lot of my friends use Hinge. I've helped many friends build Hinge profiles and I've heard several good reviews about the app. So, first of all, I'd like to congratulate you on that. And I've also had so many friends reaching out to me at this time and audience members and our community saying they need help with dating and connection at this time specifically when they can't go out on a traditional date, they can't meet up with people, they can't go on those walks or dinners or whatever it may be. And so, I think you're going to be super useful to our community and audience today. Where are you right now, by the way?

Okay, nice. And you were just telling me earlier you've got a crying baby upstairs. You have How many kids do you have?

Oh, no way. What's his name?

That's awesome, man. Congratulations.

Yeah, I like seeing the toys in the background and everything, so

Uh but yeah, today we want to dive into everything from entrepreneurship and your journey to your passion for connecting with people and I'd love everyone who's listening today to get a bit of insight around dating at this time and maintaining relationships. I think there's a lot of people who not only are spending more time than ever together right now, there are also a lot of people who are spending more time apart than ever before as well and I think not a lot of people are talking about that. There are a lot of people who are new relationships where they're socially distancing right now. So, the first person I wanted to ask you was listening to a podcast that you did and you said you used to believe in the idea of the one, but you currently do not. What changed? I'm fascinated about that and tell us about that thought process.

I think that's spot on advice, man. That resonates so deeply with me. How long have you been with your wife now?

Amazing. Yeah, and

Oh, wow, that's incredible. Yeah, and so I love that advice that you shared because I think for so many people you're spot on. It's like I'm going to find the one and then it's all going to go uphill and everything's going to be fine. It's totally the other way around. I think that's why we struggle to find the one in that mindset because we're constantly looking for the perfect person, the perfect partner who's got everything perfect, which obviously is impossible to find, and then we almost get surprised when we realize that they're not perfect and then that's when the work's really got to happen and that's what we miss out on.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or even that one, I found myself doing this a lot. I was reflecting my parents' relationship in my relationship. So it was like not only was I reflecting my wife's and my wife reflecting me, but we are reflecting our parents and that just confuses the whole thing. So I want to hear what's your favorite dating story, either yours or one that you've heard or one of your favorite stories about dating.

Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with the Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook Project Hail Mary, massive sci-fi adventure about survival and science and uh what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth.

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like okay, yo yo yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it and I was like no, at this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic.

That's great.

Cuz it served the story. People will say like, 'Oh my god, I cried at the end.' It's like, 'Yeah, dude, me too.' Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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You start thinking about the infinite number of differences that humans have, whether it's physical, mental, emotional, background. And it's so hard to be vulnerable in that way. How do you think that you've tried to engineer and create your app in such a way that allows people to naturally be their best not their best self, but their real self and their vulnerable self and their genuine self, so that people can connect in a real way and save themselves the games and the time and the energy and the effort that's often wasted in trying to present your best self.

And so, tell us some more of those good examples. Because I think you're so right that the biggest struggle people have right now is starting a conversation. They don't know what to say first. They don't want to be the person saying 'hey how are you' or 'are you stuck indoors too.' So tell us about some of those other prompts that help people start great conversations, and what is it about that question that you've understood through data and stories that has the greatest impact on starting a meaningful conversation, especially in isolation right now.

I really like the question you mentioned of 'what would be your ideal first date' because in psychology that's forward-pacing. It puts people in the mindset of thinking in that direction, so you're already creating it in your imagination and conversation, which makes it more likely to happen in reality. I think any questions that spur action or connection are positive, especially now when all you have is your imagination. Did you see this video? I interviewed someone on Instagram live last week, Jeremy Cohen. He made a video of falling in love during quarantine. He saw a girl on a roof in New York City dancing and recording a TikTok, so he put his number in a note on a drone and flew it to her rooftop. It triggered the best love story ever. But it's that innovation and creativity and openness to finding something new at this time. What kind of pressures are you seeing on dating and starting a relationship at this time? And how are you seeing usage on the app change and dating change, especially through the use of an app like yours?

Yeah, I love what you pointed out. A lot of people forget or place themselves in fear that a first date has to be staring someone in the face and having a conversation about life. When you think about that, it's pretty tough. How often do you do that with a complete stranger? What we're really searching for is shared experiences. Whether you're cooking each other something, doing a workout together, or playing a game, that kind of stuff drops the guard and helps everyone feel comfortable and relaxed. You're seeing each other in a real environment. For me and my wife, when we first started dating, we loved doing activities together like outdoor assault courses. We'd notice personality traits in a natural, organic way rather than asking 'what do you like?' or 'how do you describe yourself?'

Exactly. We all know that interviews don't work in that format because you say what you think the other person wants to hear. When you're cooking each other's favorite meal and guiding each other through, you learn what that person is like in real life.

Yeah, that's really cool. I'm glad more people are using the app and seeking meaningful connection at this time. Tell us about the inspiration behind the app in terms of people seeking meaningful connection and you thinking that apps were letting people down. Was it because you had an incredible love life or the opposite? What led you to this idea?

Yeah, you gave a really good example earlier about how instead of just posting six selfies, you want people to show different parts of themselves. What are the other ways you're encouraging people, and what practical tips can you share to improve their success on a dating app? What are they getting wrong? When people have that limiting belief that it's not right for them, what can you encourage them to do practically to be more confident? Because it's natural to want to post the pictures we think we look best in.

Yeah, absolutely. I like those ways because online dating requires discipline. The commitment of going back and forth on messaging. I think half the battle is people feeling they're not going to be as interactive on message as they are in person. But now we're all being forced to be our most interesting selves digitally.

Everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with the Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary, massive sci-fi adventure about survival and science and uh what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth.

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, 'Okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent?' And I really thought about it. I was like, 'No, at this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it.' But there's places in this book that deeply emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic.

That's great.

Cuz it served the story. People will say like, 'Oh my god, I cried at the end.' It's like, 'Yeah, dude, me too.' Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

When Kohler, the global design leader in luxurious kitchen and bath products, came to me and said, 'Martha, we need an ambassador for our timeless, elegant, durable cast iron products.' I said, 'I'm in. Now, let me see the factory.' Weeks later, I was suited up in coveralls and work boots, walking through their Kohler, Wisconsin, cast iron foundry. I stood next to the molten iron furnace, saw the hand applying enamel, and touched the gorgeous finished products waiting to be sent out into the world. Since 1883, Kohler cast iron products have been forged and finished by the incredible craftspeople right in Kohler, Wisconsin. I'll tell you, I gained a new found respect and appreciation for Kohler's cast iron craftsmanship. So, now, I'm lending my discerning stamp of approval to my most beloved Kohler cast iron products for their durability, beauty, and timelessness. Shop my Kohler cast iron favorites curated on kohler.com. Bring the warmth, character, and enduring style of these timeless products into your kitchens and bathrooms. As the Kohler cast iron ambassador, I say, 'Long live cast iron.'

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How have you been working at Hinge? You're probably doing a lot of interviews right now on Zoom and FaceTime. How are you finding communicating digitally different from communicating physically?

Yeah, those are great tips. I know a lot of our audience is shifting to work from home. I love the emoji idea to represent how you're feeling. How's it been for you with a 7-month-old son and your partner? How many of you are in the same home?

Amazing.

Yeah. How are you finding it as a couple living at home with a young child? What are you doing as a couple and family to get through this time? I think a lot of parents find it difficult, and couples are spending more time together. What have you found in the real life home situation that's helped your relationship?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I think what you shared is true regardless of situation. Having some sort of rhythm and routine in the day, a change of environment, whether that's visual if you can go outdoors, or even shifting up the environment in your home, is so useful. Otherwise, being in the same room all day brings its own strain on a relationship. I've been recommending to people that it's okay to have space during the day. You don't have to sit on the same couch and do everything together.

You don't have to have breakfast, lunch, and dinner and watch a movie on that same couch every day. That's not healthy for any relationship. Don't feel the pressure to spend all your time together. It's okay to recognize that you have your commute, your feelings together and apart. That's really healthy. And if work has to take a backseat while you're adjusting, it's so important to make those adjustments and not judge yourself. A lot of people are feeling guilty for not being the perfect partner or parent right now.

No, I don't think anyone can be the perfect anything right now. I think a little self-compassion is needed.

You mentioned meditation there. Tell me about your journey with mindfulness and meditation. Is it a big part of your life? How long have you been interested in it?

Yeah, that's beautiful. I couldn't agree more. It's hard when the one practice that's meant to be freeing becomes your prison. You become imprisoned to the habit and routine. It needs to give you freedom and spontaneity.

Yeah, for sure. You said you've encouraged your team to do as well. So is there something the company does every single day or multiple times per week? How has that helped people in the company?

Speaking about that, I want to ask you about this. As an entrepreneur and founder of an app, you don't have social media or Slack or email on your phone, right? How did you make that decision and stick to it through the growth? How useful has it been?

Yeah, it sounds like a small move. I didn't have a social media account until 2014. Now my work exists on every platform. I've trained myself to not wake up to my phone and not go to sleep to my phone. I remember locking my devices in my car to build that habit. Now I wake up naturally. The clarity you feel from not being reactive is incredible. I totally see why as a founder it's a brilliant decision. Hopefully it will help more founders and CEOs recognize that it's not business critical to have it on their phone.

You said one of the most important skills of an entrepreneur is resilience. Right now, people really need that skill because everyone's resilience is being tested. Tell me about a time when your resilience was massively tested and you started to realize its value.

Yeah, I think that's going to help a lot of people right now. Many have had to let go of half their teams or feel their business could disappear. It's not unnatural to get negative thoughts and fall into depression. Your choice and resilience will push you toward good habits. You will fall into a habit during tough times, so find the fight to push yourself toward positive habits. It's incredible.

Yeah, that's amazing. I'm glad you highlighted that. You can become so stoic and believe you have to deal with all your issues alone. Especially now, the need to reach out to someone you can be honest with is real. Please take that advice.

Yeah, I love that. Who doesn't like receiving a message of gratitude with no strings attached? Most people reach out with a specific request or agenda. When someone proposes something with zero agenda, it's so fresh. That's the best feeling. It's more meaningful than any deal.

Tell us about this 17- and 5-year relationship journey with your partner right now.

That's awesome. Everyone loves hearing about a love story. I'm glad you're using technology to create meaningful connection. What is your hope for people who approach an app like Hinge? How should one approach it? The intention and approach are so important.

I love that. We write our story before we fall in love. We try to find the version that matches that version, but it's impossible. Letting yourself find someone creates its own story. Justin, this has been great. We end every episode with two segments: fill in the blanks and the final five. So fill in the blanks: I read a sentence and you fill in the last word. The most important decision we make is...

If you want a thriving relationship, always...

Only stay in a relationship with someone that...

Lack of connection makes us...

All great dates start with...

Awesome. This is your final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. If you could create a law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

That's a great answer. Second question: What have you been chasing in your life that you no longer pursue?

What do you feel is the biggest misconception about your app?

Yeah, the biggest question is 'Can you find real love on an app?' You must get that all the time. To me it's like, why not? There are so many random places people connect.

Awesome. Two last questions. What is the one thing you believe 100% when it comes to dating that others disagree with you on?

And the fifth and final question: What was your biggest lesson learned from the last 12 months of your life?

Thank you so much, Justin. I hope many of you will check out Hinge. Thanks, Justin. Did I not ask you anything you want to share with my audience?

Amazing. Please go check that out. Thank you.

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When Kohler asked me to be their ambassador for timeless, elegant, durable cast iron, I said 'I'm in.' Seeing their artisans pour molten iron and apply enamel by hand gave me a new appreciation. I'm proud to lend my stamp of approval. Long live cast iron.

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.