HBS Club of Lebanon: Discussion with Gilbert Ghostine

Thank you very much. Good afternoon everyone. Delighted and thrilled to be with you this afternoon. Actually I landed in Lebanon last night, and we've planned this well with John Mark; he'll be able to send this afternoon in two hours. You're right, everything started a few blocks away. I was born in Jamaica 63 years ago, and you mentioned the number 37. Yes, I've had a career for the last 37 years, and at the same time I've been married to the same wife. Thank you. Together we have two kids and four grandchildren. So yes, my journey starting from Lebanon, I'm very emotionally attached to Lebanon. I have so many friends in Lebanon, and I'm really touched that they call me friends because I really highly value this special relationship. I keep investing and nurturing these special relationships. Now what I think I would like to do alternatly to speak for 20 minutes because I don't like these interactions; I want them to be a dialogue. So if we could try, maybe I would share with you the brief from John Mark was 'tell me about your leadership journey, your leadership lessons.' I don't like the word 'lessons' because they look like more patronizing, so I would share with you a few learnings that I had throughout my career, and I would mainly fast forward into the future. I will share with you what I think the world will be in 2030 with all the changes recent coming, and I will also tell you what from my perspective you need to check that your businesses are future ready. So that's the way I would spend the next 20 minutes before I can turn it over to you for questions. Leadership is the base of everything. Leadership is about choices, leadership about all the decisions that you make in our lives, and leadership will make sure that we stand out. Yes, I was fortunate that I had a career spanning 37 years across five continents, worked for creative companies, learned so much from so many outstanding colleagues. When people ask me, 'If you want to put down the success of your career to one thing, what should it be?' And if you ask me one thing, I would say I always surrounded myself with people even better than me. And I'm always surprised at people who look at CEOs and say, 'You guys walk on water, you are outstanding.' I always answer, 'I am as good as my team. You are as good as your people. If you surround yourself with the best people, you succeed.' This has been one of the secret recipes that I use across all the continents, across all the companies that I worked for throughout my career, and this is universal. I am not the person who is taking people with me from a region X, religion Y, or from company A, company B. If you surround yourself with people better than you, you will succeed because you are not needed to be the expert in everything. You just need to make sure that you surround yourself with A-plus people, and when you get around the table A-plus people, you need to work even harder because you need to move them very quickly from individual stars to team stars, and the journey will be very hard. That's why you will be as successful as your team. If you know how to surround yourself with the best people, you'll be very successful. I'll give you one example. Lots of people are surprised, 'Okay, you are an FMCG person, you started your career as a marketer and moved into general management, you run the four continents of the world, but you don't understand science. You are joining a science company.' Back in 1939, to give you an idea of how much science is important, yes, I realized that I had this gap. I personality communicative human to be my head of science is part of a surgeon the airport professor general Berkeley had appreciations she used to be the head of R&D for Unity but she used to sit on the board of AstraZeneca and on the board of editing. So this is the type of how you pinch it. You surround yourself with people that are smarter than you, more capable than you in the areas of their expertise, and then you work very hard with them to harvest their capabilities so together as a team you could run faster than any other company in the world and you could win bigger. So that's one element.

The second element that I learned throughout my career is get yourself out of your comfort zone, challenge orthodoxies. If you stick with comfort zone and you say 'I'm comfortable with what I do, I'm comfortable with this side of business, I don't want to expose myself, I don't want to take this,' you end up limiting your potential. I'll give you an example. When I used to work for Diageo, I was happy with my performance and they kept adding new markets, so I found myself running Middle Eastern Africa, Eastern Europe, and Central Europe, and at the same time four or five countries in Asia, so I was around 70 countries out of Dubai. And then they actually came to me and said, 'Look, we have an opportunity for you. We want to move you to the US.' So very seamlessly well organized life and the opportunity to move to the US, to Chicago. The weather difference between Chicago and Dubai, if there is some difference. And at the same time I was approached by two of the top five FMCG companies in the world, both offered me to be the president of the Middle Eastern African business. What do you think I decided to do? Go to the US, get myself out of the comfort zone, let's go and learn. I learned a huge from the US, from the culture, the exposure, scope of the business, ways of working, etc., that helped me to become an international leader instead of being a regional leader. So get yourself out of your comfort zone, challenge orthodoxy, don't make sure that you stick with what you know, always aspire to keep developing yourself, growing, etc.

The third thing that I learned that I found interesting and I was testing the idea with a few of you when we were chatting before we started, is that whatever I started doing when I was in junior marketing year or a junior censor, I do the same now as a CEO, and I will be doing the same as a chairman, but the time allocation is different. So let me give you an example. Let's say you work for any company at the junior level and I am the salesman who handles experience and the faculture. What do I need to do? I do three things. The first one is performance: they give me targets that I need to hit. The second one is the relationships with the buyers to make sure that they have a good relationship. The third thing is strategically which part of the portfolio I need to favor, the parts that are most profitable, have higher margins so I can have a better mix and better profit. But how does a salesman allocate their time? 80% of their time on performance management, 10% of their time on relationship building, 10% of their time on what we call strategies. Fast forward 37 years, now you are a CEO running a global company, or every one of you running your company, how do you allocate your time? If you allocate your time the same way that the salesman allocated his time, then you have an issue. The way I allocate my time as a CEO over the last nine years: 20% of my time is on performance management, 40% of my time on strategy - our acquisitions, our consolidations, the way we need to make investments, what are the new consumer plans, how do we want to lead our innovations, how do we want to shift the center of gravity for our business from chemistry to life science, etc. And 40% of my time on organization building, making sure that you have the right talents, making sure that the right talents are inspired by the dream, and at the same time we have a culture that empowers people. So this is my third learning: the same things that you do when you are a junior starting your career, you do those also when you are a CEO and a chairman, but your time allocation is different. So that's mainly what I learned.

Now fast forward into the future. We live in a world that is evolving very fast, nothing is static, everything is moving around us. And what we are going to do is quite unusual because for the first time in the history of mankind we have a convergence of three major crises: a biotherapy crisis which is the healthcare crisis, combined with the geopolitical crisis, and combined with the economic crisis, and they are interrelated because from the pandemic started the complexity around supply chain, shortages, inflation started creeping, shortages of materials, so the three of them are interrelated and they are immersed into a digital war. So this is the environment in which we operate. Now if I think about 2030, the world in 2030 will be completely different from the world today. And the common words across all the things that I will mention is more. So the world in 2030 will be older: more aging population. In 2030, one out of six people in the world will be over 60, compared to one out of eight today. So the population is aging. A greener world: more than 100 trillion US dollars will be invested behind the decarbonization and carbon neutral environment. The world will be more regional: 70% of the trade in 2030 will be regional, 50% of the consumption will be local. Consumers will be looking for more local brands, and they will look at it from different angles: environmental angle, local angle, cultural, etc. The world will be more regulated: more regulation on different companies that work in all countries, more regulation on head, on digitalization, on technology. And the world will be more digital: 70% of the world will be covered by 5G by 2030. Think about quantum computing, think about AI, think about ChatGPT, all of this. So the world in 2030 will be a world of more, more regional, more local, more green, older, and at the same time more regulated. So the question that I always ask myself and my people is: are you, is your business future ready? I think if you want to be obsessed with one thing, are you future ready? Is your business future ready? How are you making sure that your business is ready for what we will be facing in seven years time? 2030 is not 2050, it will be hitting us very fast. And my advice for people who say 'Okay, what do we need to do?' maybe we could focus on five key things before turning over to you.

The first one: please make sure you are surrounded by the best talents. You will run faster and you will definitely be in the competition. So the first thing is to make sure that you are able to retain, attract, inspire, motivate the best team, and trust me, in Lebanon, I have kids and I see the young generation joining our companies. You need to make two times, three times, five times the effort to inspire them and to engage them emotionally with your company. So that's the first one. The second one: make sure that the operating model you have is agile and flexible, because we live in a world with lots of volatility. You need to adapt your business model in a very quick way, so make sure that you have a business model that is flexible, agile, and at the same time resilient. The third one: do you have in your company an innovation culture, or are you stuck living in the past? If you stimulate an innovation culture, you will be able to outpace the competition, keep coming up with new business models, new opportunities, new technologies, understanding the new consumer needs, turning that into new consumption opportunities, and coming with solutions that will be relevant for your customers and consumers. The fourth one: have you embraced the world of digitalization? Are you leveraging the data you have? I'm sure all of you have companies that are 40 years, 15 years, 100 years old, you have so much data. How do harness the data and adapt your model into that digitalization platform, the artificial intelligence, the machine learning that exists? This gives you a significant competitive edge. And the last one: make sure that your company has a great purpose that can inspire others, and you as a company play a significantly important role in society, from leading on the social and environmental standards, in terms of transparency, establishing trust, and make sure that you unite everyone in the organization behind this purpose. When you have that, you will make a social and environmental impact in society and at the same time create value. That's mainly what I wanted to share with you, so I thank you.

Thank you, Celestine. With all these changes that you've done, that I'll be moving around, and even with wets, yes, I have one regret. The only regret I have is that we had two kids and not four kids. But we have less children. We changed 21 houses in 37 years of marriage, so you can imagine how intense this was. And when you make a choice to have an international career, it gives and it takes. And the only thing I regret is not our opportunities.

In the future, I think well you have to do as English is and especially I work for a science company today, so I mean it's a science company. What you try to do is you try to anticipate and you consume the facts. I'll give you a few examples. Ten years ago, our scientists figured out that there will be a significant consumer concern about pain, and therefore they started investing our plants significantly behind coming with the most advanced sugar reduction technology. Three or four years ago, we announced a proprietary sugar reduction technology that can remove 100% of the sugar from products while maintaining the same taste and the same mouthfeel. Now in the post-COVID era, everyone realized that if your immune system is weak, it can affect weight, if you have diabetes, etc., you are much more vulnerable. And suddenly we live in a world where sugar became the next tobacco, where sugar became public enemy number one. So everyone is reducing sugar, and we have the technology to be able to service these customers. So it's not about predicting the future; it's trying as much as possible to lean in, listen to what consumers are telling you, and come with technology solutions that could deliver against that. So that's the answer.

It's a great question. First, let me tell you something. Let me give you my philosophy about CEO. People look at CEOs as these amazing people. I thought about them, you would have said... The thing that is very interesting is people don't understand what the CEO is about. The CEO is the most senior employee, that's the way I look at my role. But I have more responsibility. So everybody, I'm sharing and washing my face, I look at myself as remember every 27th of the month so you put it's a responsibility, it's not about ego, it's not about status. And you are the most senior employee in the company. The beauty of corporations in the world is that you have checks and balances. That's why when I see companies that don't have good governance, I honestly think you need to make more effort. The beauty of governance: the CEO runs the company, the CEO gets authority from the board, and this is how the checks and balances work. The board can fire the CEO if the CEO and management are not doing their job. And the checks and balances from the board is the AGM. The shareholders represented in the AGM can decide to fire the board because they hold the board to account every year. So with these checks and balances, you could feel comfortable. It's not about ego, it's not about you, it's about your impact on society. The tone comes from the top. If you create a tone that is not about you, it's about the company, it's about all stakeholders. We came with a model that is fascinating during my time at Firmenich: the inclusive capitalism business model. And we said we as a company care about all our stakeholders, obviously starting with our customers because we are a B2B company, then to our colleagues because they are the company, we invest 450 million every year behind R&D, and for our communities because we are who we are because of the impact that we have on the planet. So I think we have far more ego in our part of the world, and this is the part that I don't like. You don't have it in Switzerland, you don't have it in the West. You are a noble human being like everyone else, but you have more accountability because you have the accountability of the people who rely on you, who look up to you, and at the same time the responsibility to society and corporations.

Yeah, it's a great question. Look, the problem of healthcare is universal. When we look at the aging population, 1 out of 16 over 60, and people are living longer, if you look at life expectancy now, it is somewhere around... they are retiring sometime earlier, so they are healthier. Now the problem of healthcare is universal. Even when you look at the data, the world has a shortage of, I think I got the number, like 20 million people. And that's why people are crying during the pandemic: shortages of nurses, doctors, psychologists, physiotherapists, osteopaths. So everything. I think the only way to retain is you need to make the people emotionally engaged with your company, pay them properly, and look after them. If you create this environment, people will stay. If they struggle to get food on the table every day, they will not have opportunities to get a partnership.

Uh, for the people who are joining us online, just to make sure you understand the question, the question was what do you mean by your company's science rhythm. We need to go back to what Firmenich is. Firmenich is a fragrance and taste company. By being a science-based company, what do we do? We have a brand that we sell called tradition. The molecules we create and the products that we put together are consumed by 1.5 billion consumers every day around the world. If you have any platform or soap, they will have our molecules and fragrance ingredients. If you have your shampoo, your detergent, your soap, your floor cleaners, etc., everything that stands is produced by specialized companies in the industry. Firmenich is one of them. Also when we move to taste, your taste should be in beverages, is also produced by specialized companies. Even though you will buy a brand from a specific company, they buy their taste services. I encourage you to have a look at our website this evening if you have a few minutes; you will find it interesting.

Look, it's a great question. You're putting yourself under the issue, a United States issue now. Yes, you have a younger population in Africa, but you have an aging population in China. If you look at the stats, people tell you that possibly China by 2030 will have 700 million or 750 million people compared to 1.3 billion today. So you know this is why you're looking at this aging population. Now the two issues that you have in the world that need to be figured out: one of them is inequality, the haves and have-nots, and the second one is our planet. We have one planet, and are we taking all the decisions to make sure that we keep nurturing this planet in the right way? There are lots of people working on this to make sure that we get this balance right. It is driven by when you look at the OECD arriving on a 15% minimum tax for corporations. This is one I can predict that within 10 years you will have minimum tax on people too, the same way. So people who think they are avoiding taxes by locating in different locations, today with digitalization, it can move in one direction. But I am someone that is coming from the school of solidarity and not assistance. So lots of people say yes, there is inequality, but we need to offer opportunities. It's all about assistance, so there is a huge difference between solidarity and assistance.

Yeah, it's a great question. I think what I see about Muhammad has done here gives me hope. I told them I was very intrigued. They gave me an address, and they knew that my secretary couldn't find it, so she was in panic. We tried to figure out how to get there, and I was very impressed with the team. So three initiatives. And when you look at the young generation, you have all the ideas, all the change, all the transformation will come from the young generation. Yes, they could do it with cycles. Let's hope. In the context of Lebanon, and maybe this is the only comment that I will make about the political situation: let's hope that they have the opportunity to vote, and they will vote differently.

I think the beauty of observing this is that the family fighting was very much sure about its governance. This is a company that is 128 years old today, fifth generation of shareholders. We have over 40 shareholders, and 40 years ago they figured out that they need to have a governance where all the branches and all the shareholders see customers. What they have done is they decided that the governance they have will emulate the governance of publicly listed companies in Switzerland. The governance of Firmenich today is the same as the governance of Swiss companies.

They've decided to have to split. Chairman concealed and even they had the maturity to be a minority on their own. So today the furnished board has nine members. Although the family owns 100% of the company, they have four members and they have five independents. And I'll give you one example without mentioning the name, and this is why it goes back to maturity. So how mature are you as a family to do this? Now if you ask our shareholders, 'Why do you have five independents and you are only four? Are you concerned?' 'No, we're not concerned. This company became bigger, you know, internationally, available in 100 companies, net revenue over a billion, profit. So there are capabilities that you don't have. So it's not like we can attempt to know everything and until you automatically you're surrounding the company and making all the decisions.' They have reported their energy and once again I'll share with you there is a discussion around the whole table. Independents, these shareholders would listen and then one of the independents looked at one specific person of the shareholders and said to him, 'You guys understand this industry inside out. You are the most knowledgeable. What do you think about this?' You know what the shareholders said? The shareholder, the answer was, 'Look, thank you for saying that. You know, we understand the industry inside out, etc., etc. The only reason that we sit around the table is because of our DNA. So we enjoy having the strategic conversation because together we could make the right choice for the company going forward.' So it's the level of maturity and volume one to achieve. And that's why when you look at the West, the way it works is it discovered a very community by age, so in a way that you hand over and pass on. So I was lucky in my career that I got all the markets right in my career. So I was president of Middle Eastern Africa when I was 37. I was on the Global Executive Committee when I was 46. I was a CEO at 54 and now I'm becoming a chairman at 63. But in Europe, you could look at the bylaws at 70, you can't even sit on a board. So when you get to 70, you have to step down from the board because on the governance, you have to step down. Not because you don't have knowledge, you have great knowledge, but you need to make space for the living generation so you have new ideation, new ideas, etc., etc. So it's the level of control that you have. And I advocate always to speak clearly for CEO to have good governance, a good board to direct management. If they fail, you know, you could make decisions, but the governance needs to be very clearly defined so people are in power and at the same time health of a company. Thank you.

I mean, it's a great question. Let me tell you, for example, when I interview people — and I don't interview people at the lower end of the organization, mainly at the senior level — what I want even more is on my executive or you know that report to me. Definitely, I don't look at performance because you know when people get in front of me, they'll be checked ten times, they know how to drive performance. I look at team fit. And at the same time, I look at: are they humble? Are these people that really want to work hard and they want to succeed? So that's one element. The second one, team fit. So what they think and the area that I grow and that will be a logo for me is: if I see someone who is all about themselves, all about 'we are the smartest, the better, the best', we want to dominate conversations — these are the people that you don't want. And obviously, if you have people that are unethical, so if they are unethical, you don't need them in your organization. It's a good question, it's a very good question. Look, I don't have a favorite, so my favorite book is the Bible, but I am always spoken to read new books. Actually, I was having a conversation with my wife last night and I said to her, 'Look, we have lots of books and I keep receiving lots of books, and honestly, how do you find time to read?' And I think it's all about mindset. If you have this intellectual philosophy to keep learning. And I think this is what's your first question? What was it? Why? Look, maybe I read in topics where I need to learn and where there are new things. So there is a new book that I started reading two days ago, 'Khan Deliberately'? So you know how, because my wife always said that I'm surprised you always start with always school, you know, although I know how many topics you're matching. So I've received this book that some activity consultants, you know, I agree with it and I was very curious to start reading the book. So it's all about intellectual curiosity and I think one of the key components is... and you could learn from everyone. You know, now I'm learning from you because I know what you have in your head. And one of the reasons why I give these conferences on a regular basis — you know, on the 17th of April I'm giving a conference to the MBAs of Waterloo, I'm doing one to the MBAs inside early May — so the one reason is not only because I see it as a social and moral obligation to share the learning, but at the same time, you know, I see what you have on your mind, what are your subjects that are important for you and you are worried about, so it gets me closer to the real world that sometimes, you know, within my feet is selected talk.

Two great questions. The first one: look, all the business schools in the world have these programs about laws and governance. I think what you could learn from them is governance, because governance is very important and all of them do a good job. I think the biggest learning with both is quality. Or if you need to sit very quickly, you will leave the board to enjoy. So the CEOs that will tell you 'Oh my God, I have my board that reports to me' or 'I'm waiting three days that they leave' — these are the CEOs that have been struggling with their boards. And this is why my concept always is: just very quickly, from during the work, enjoy the board. Why do you need to enjoy the board? And I love meeting with my board directors and I hope that the CEO of Sandoz, you know, will feel the same with the Sandoz board in the future. I know he will because he's interestingly smart and we're very lucky to have him. The thing is, CEO worlds are very lonely. These are lonely jobs. And you make like a hundred decisions every day. Every night when I'm driving back home, I think, 'Did I make the right decision?' And if it's the right decision, you only think about the interest of the entity and the community and not the interest of one single individual. So very lonely jobs. And this is why the smart CEOs have great relationships with the chairman and with the board that they use as a sounding board.

Look, we live in a world that is in constant evolution. And I'll give you a small example. I still remember, actually it's my generation and some of you are far younger than me. In our generation, we started at home with no TV, to black and white TV, to color TV, to black and white? So now I look at my kids, they don't even watch TV anymore. So I think we live in constant evolution. You know, when I used to live in Africa, to call home, to call our parents, it was a nightmare. You have to go to a phone, you don't have a phone, and we spent hours trying to call our parents and then they are not home. And look at now with our kids, with our grandchildren, you know, FaceTime and WhatsApp videos, etc. So the world is smaller. I think technology brought a lot to the world. Internet access to information created a more connected way of making sure that opportunities are equal. I remember, you know, I served here at the USC. When your time arrives, you go and check the encyclopedia or the book that you want. When you got this book, you tried and you try it on the back, you know this book has been printed five or ten years ago, so information that we were so excited about was already obsolete. Today, everyone around the world that has access to internet has access to the same information. So technology and internet is hugely beneficial. Now, we charge and continue to have concerns. And I think I trust humanity. I trust human beings. I think 20 years ago when we started having these conversations about genome and gene editing, etc., what did the international community do, led by the US? A moratorium of six months. Yes, they need to do it because this needs to be regulated. But the impact on society will be huge. And the impact of charges between ChatGPT, you know, will be very favorable for SMEs, small and medium enterprises, help them with access to technologies and knowledge that global companies have today. So I think we have to trust. This is why I was telling you, fast forward 2030, the world will be more regulated. And the world will be even more regulated from the technology point of view. In local contexts, having TikTok now in the US, etc., this is amazing part of the bigger geopolitical game. But the world will be more regulated. And the thing is that technology is faster than collectibles and consumer regulators. Their old system needs to play catch up and is starting with artificial... thank you.

Yeah, look, I think you're asking a good question. We are not in a world where we want to clone others. So I think I learned diversity. I find the diversity of views. So you have people that see the world differently and you don't believe in what you're doing. So if they are not, if you are not putting more intensity on you, so it is your responsibility. You can engage all your colleagues emotionally with your job. If you are not doing this, so it is not their responsibility to work harder. So we look at it in this part of the world like, okay, so they are not listening, they are not getting it. You need to calibrate your message to be able to be inside everyone and you need to keep working harder to make sure you achieve it. And it's not easy. It was easy because someone else could have done it.

So, yeah. Look, my definition of success is broad roles and very important: with your family, do you have enough friends, do you have fun, do you have activities? Yeah, it's how big is your contribution back to society. For example, a scholarship fund at UAG some seven, eight years ago, we did between 14 and 15 scholarships every year. This brings so much fulfillment to us, more than the business challenges. So I think your definition of success is very broad. Unfortunately, sometimes in this side of the world, definition of success is financial success. That's not the way we look at it. It's far more than that. At the same time, reputation: do you have the right reputation, are you respected in society, are you making a difference to society? What's your legacy? Your legacy will never be your bank account. Your legacy will be your impact on others.

Let me tell you something that is quite interesting. And you could ask my friends. So everyone knows that I was an average student. How the student might be, you know. A few years ago, I was invited by... they want to give me an award. And I called my mom. I said, 'Mom, you should feel very proud of me because they have invited me to give me an award because I graduated from the university, I had a great career.' And she said to me, 'I am going to Canada.' Than in the classroom? So when I went there and all my classmates were there, I love them, we had a great relationship and we stay connected. And I started by telling them, let me tell you this story because all of them would be surprised. They would say, 'Look, how come you are successful?' And I told them, let me tell you what I've done. All of you, you know, the five years of academic studies, but I have been taking 37 years of private classes. So I've been taking private courses at home and that's how I built this muscle. So know the credit.

Yeah, so it's a great question. I think if you speak with any company in the world, all the big companies and even the small companies will tell you my number one market in the world is the US, my second biggest market in the world is China. The beauty of businesses is that we are not in politics. And what we focus, every company will come with their own laws and regulations and we abide by the regulations of the country and we make sure that we have a presence in every one of these economies to be able to make a difference within our industry and in society. So yes, there are some geopolitical tensions, but you will try to manage your political intentions by staying out of them and by servicing your customers properly. And this is why when I was talking about 2030, you should think about more regionalization of businesses. And if you look at the investments that are going on, also possible not only driven by the geopolitical challenges but by COVID, the world realized that you can't outsource your needs to one company, one continent, one part of the world. And all the companies today are looking at attention industries and being self-sufficient in pharma, in food, etc., etc., because they realize that some things... and they do this for several reasons. One of them is environmental footprint. The second one is to make sure that they can look out for their population. The world was very surprised that there is only one company that produces vitamins in Europe, in the West. There is only one company that produces antibiotics in Europe today. So all of this, we get adjusted.

It's not that I will be coming back. I never left 37 years ago, but I've always been connected with Lebanon. I don't consider myself part of that diaspora. I consider myself... Now, when I consider politics, the short answer is no. I'm not interested in politics.

Look, it's a great question because you're right. I challenge myself a lot to get where I am today. And what I recommend is it's all about your mindset. It's in your mind. And I'll give you an example. I studied in French at USG, we didn't get our courses in English. I've had all my career for the last 27 years in English. So at the beginning, I was extremely uncomfortable doing public speaking in English. Why? Because the way it works, you think in French, you get a question in English, you translate it in French in your mind, you prepare your answer in French, and by the time you are prepared to answer, someone else answered. It was very challenging for me. When we used to have conferences at the beginning of my career, I would never be able to raise my hand to answer the question because I would be going through this translation process in my mind and I was never ready. And also, I was going through the same process of speaking in French and translating to what I said in English. And at the beginning, I used to come up with a paper. I always had my notes and my paper. And I had a fear, my internal fear that I managed to overcome. And the fear was: what if you forget the word in English? And actually, I took a speech on something and I had an amazing lady, her name was Jane Upton, and Jane told me, she said, 'Look, do you think you need this paper? You need support if I forget the word, I get embarrassed.' Three languages, I'm sure that part of your group is another density languages, so you already have an edge. If you forget a word in English and if you mention it in Spanish, so everyone will understand the sentence. And in the company, people will look at it as exotic. So it was in my mind. This is why I said it's all about mindset. Keep working on yourself. Yes, you will have peace, but you will have to figure out a way to overcome. And you could see me now, in ICM as that should in front of you, I spoke without supporting documents, without looking at the screen, editing in a language that is my third language. So you will have to work hard to overcome these fears and these insecurities. When I went to the US, lots of people said, 'Oh my God, the European going to the US,' you know, backlash. But all of this is surround sound that you need to switch off and focus on what you're good at.

Yeah, look, I think this is a very good question for me. The weather is going very well? And if I step back and say what are the reasons why we have nourished? You know, we have a look at that. Both companies are passionate about science. The company is passionate about science. I spoke about the Nobel Prize. We were recognized over the last few years as being one of the 100 most innovative companies in the world. And yeah, by Alexion? In this part of our companies, the Google, the Microsoft, the Apple of this world, and only two FMTC companies, that's the NPNG. So it gives you an idea where we are. Yes, and both of us are open about ESG. We are number one on the early years standards trade? So culturally we are very similar. Now, I think there is something that would confuse people around family owned companies. There are family controlled companies. The family control companies are all the companies in the world where the family has more than 20 percent. And the answer will be a company where the family all the members of the family will have 34.5? So the family spirit will always be there. But what we are doing, we are creating together by merging with DSM the industry in well-being and in nutrition. Three consumer plants that are significantly important to the future. So that gives a higher level for our shareholders to go into this journey. And this is how for them it's more parenting for the enterprise. The company that is one of the 2018 school? By doing this larger and by doing this partnership, you'll need to get even more perennials listening to them.

Yeah, look, I think there is nothing holding us back in this part of the world to be a science-relevant, competent, or a science-building region. Now the only difference is, do you believe in long-term? Most of the countries in this part of the world have a trading culture where people are looking at immediate returns. So if I look at the 450 million I invest every year behind R&D, at first, do they see the return in the same year? No. Do they need the return next year, the year after more? You know, these are returns that you get several years down the road. But it's a culture where we need to invest for the future. And this is what you have with science. We changed. Okay.

This is what you have, for example, in the US, what you have in Europe, you have incentives for companies around tax breaks to invest behind science. I think it's a combination of policy and mindset. Because you need to put it on the back of today. We have this challenge. Also, we need to prepare to go down. We are recruiting the right scientists. Are we attracting them? Are we giving them the right equipment? Are we motivating them to work for us? And I can tell you, for example, in Geneva we have 450 scientists, 250 of them in science. The new group DSM published will have two thousand people working in R&D. So to attract the talents from all over the world, these scientists look at different metrics to make sure that they come and work with us. It's not only you say okay, there are 24 companies to attract these best scientists. And scientists, they fall in love with science. They want breakthroughs. They want to work on these breakthrough platforms or molecules that change the world. Are you also inventing this level of ambition and this level of technology to be able to together? So I think there's a new challenge around culture, not on mountains.

It's a great question. Look, I think on my gender contribution, the numbers speak for themselves. During my early days, I used to sponsor diversity at the idea. If you go back and Google, you will find it somewhere around early 2010 where we led when I was the president of Asia Pacific. We planned down which was really empowered in Asia that became a global women empowerment program for the company globally. And I feel very proud that the program is still running today. If you look at Germany, I finished almost nine years ago as the first group, as the first non-German CEO. We used to have published one lady on this board. We have been for the last four years 50-15. And at the same time, if I look at the leadership group at Firmenich, we have 42% of our leaders are female. And it's not driven by gender, it's even by many companies. And I'll tell you how we have done this. That's one. Sorry, let me also make another element. Since 2018, one of the seven companies in the world to receive equal gender certification globally. What does it mean? It means that female and male with the same qualification in the same position are paid the same way. And you know, if you look at the stats, everyone will tell you there is a gap between somewhere between 10 and 30% between women and men. Since 2018, all our 11,000 colleagues have families that include men and women equally in terms of regulation and at the same time in terms of career aspiration and career protection. Let me just move you to how we've done this, because it was delivered by very talkative, not by gender, because if you say it's living by gender or human.

The first exact change that I wanted to do, and I would not mention the position. Obviously, you'll believe the search companies that you know this is the wrong profile. You want to be at least for this profile. They go their own way, they come back to you, they call it the search resulted long list. And along the list, you could be 50 names. And from the long list, you could go down to the short list and the short list to start interviewing. The long list, I still remember, was like maybe... I don't remember the number because this man... and I said, 'Okay, go back to the door.' They said, 'Why don't you go to the system?' I said, 'No, I said when you come back with a long list that is 50-50, then we will start this process.' Yes, so it's... I'm turning to look. This is what I do. If you don't deliver against the spirit, you will appoint someone else. They went back to the drawing board, they came back with a long list that was 56. Then within the mix, we got to the short list that was also 50 people. What we have done then: most of the time, you get a male or a female or someone that is of different ethnicity to an interview where the people that are interviewing you are very different, not different in gender but different in ethnicity, etc., etc. So you've seen that your message is not getting through. So what I've done, we have a recording panel of 50-15. Imagine them, so the female that have been interviewed are feeling fair and the men that are being interviewed are simply... otherwise, you might look at metrics that are gender related and not necessarily role capability methods. And by doing this process, when we had a fair, we started with the 55th units then moved to a 50-50 panel, we ended up with a 50-15 today. So I think it's not only the convention, but it's also the process that you design that needs to be fair. So the outcome is driven by meritocracy. And I tell you, when I started running my company and my executive team, the dynamics was very different when you had one female on the board. On the executive team, now adding 50-15 over the last four years, I think the distribution, the dynamics, the discussion, the contribution, the inclusiveness, the rigor is completely different. And this being said, sorry, that's how last questions.

Look, let me answer the second one, it's easier, and then I'll move to the first one. I have a huge admiration for the Lebanese industrials in the resilience that has been extremely resilient. They were here doing the tough times and the good times. And you know, these guys, you can only extend if the situation will allow them. Now with Sandoz, we will be interested. This is what the management of Sandoz will have to look at in the future. And you know, this will be a promotional decision about a board position. Second, the future of Sandoz is an amazing franchise. This is the brand that has had a significant impact on healthcare since 1886, defining and committed to shaping healthcare. Now, there's nobody's made a decision. Back in August last year, the shareholders about this, all of his decision when they would have an AGM, they have decided that they want to sell this business. I am very excited about Sandoz. I am very excited. And the reason I was very excited to consider or to be considered for this role is mainly because of the role of city healthcare and the role of Sandoz in getting access and at the same time providing affordable medicine to underserved population. So there is a huge purpose. And we were all tested during the pandemic and we knew how important healthcare is. And I'm very confident about the future. We're also very confident about your own future. We wish you the best. Thank you so much.