Interview with Toshio Suzuki & Hideaki Anno: “Nausicaä & Evangelion"

The evening sun sets in the western sky; it was a moment. But there are things that appear. New lights appear in the darkness. It should tell you what the Valley of the Wind was like. This audio was recorded in December 2009 for the radio program 'Toshio Suzuki's Ghibli Sweat'. It is a record of the conversation between Hideaki Anno and producer Toshio Suzuki.

Toshio Suzuki and Hideaki Anno's conversation: Nausicaa and Evangelion, the path of master and newcomer.

Hello, it's been a long time. We met suddenly in the middle of the night, around here. You told me to ride the cat bus? In a dark place, I thought someone stopped, but it was me and you as a gold. (laughs) It's creation, right?

So-so. Well, if you do it, that might be better. Because if you make it now, you get that much back. The extreme is the same as Ghibli, right? Our studio is 100% profit-seeking. The risk is big, but the return is also big.

There is one time like that for every Bolbo? For now, my 50s suit me. In my 50s, I still haven't made anime? In my 40s, I thought something, maybe from my 30s, I played around for 10 years. It's not amazing. But I played, so that might look like a school of thought? When I said I'd make Evangelion, I felt like I had to work hard. That's right, it's been popular for 10 years. It's an existence like Aso, but I made it as a DVD. You bought the live-action version. It felt like a little break. I thought about Evangelion. After Evangelion, I really lost faith in the anime industry. I thought making two sides now wouldn't help. Live-action, I'm very interested in that. I made various things, made a documentary, and thanks to the description, it was waiting in Ube, right? um, what's it called? I went to that high school and was surprised. The world of the movie version, where did the wind case come from? Everything is turned into the movie world. That is something that was imprinted from childhood. I like many things, I like anime and tokusatsu. I think so. Ah, that's right. When I saw it, I felt it. I don't really realize it myself, but it becomes that way. When I do something, it all looks that way to my eyes. Unfortunately, I haven't seen it, because I don't watch anime at my age. But today, I watched all the TV series. I think was good. The TV series was interesting, so it reminded me of Natsume Soseki. Also, when did you think of Hayao Miyazaki? I think he's an animator. It was in high school that I became aware of him, from Conan. I had seen stuff before, but what is it? I also like ghost stories. At Toei, there is something amazing, but when it comes to Hayao Miyazaki, I started watching properly from there. I watched it in real time, and my sister and I watched this channel, and we managed to see something like Raptian Angel. I started doing that. Because it was NHK, I persuaded my parents to watch, and if they saw the first episode, they would want to continue. After that, I could watch it every week. It was Petit Ange. Just watch the opening of Spiazia? Then there is borrowing. 1978? 79? I can go see it. I was satisfied. I saw it twice. On my side, it was all of us, and there was a simultaneous screening. And that picture, lobby? The soil was Mr. Boo? Oh, I see. I went to Akan-san, and on that side, we single-handedly hit the short film and went in many times. I was very envious. Castle of Cagliostro is indeed good. It was when I first met him. Yes, it's good. They work hard. That it took half a year is amazing. Fukuoka took four months, that speed. When the company said three months, they said one month, then later said if it takes a few months. What? They rewrote it. There, I also feel frustrated. People like that are people who rewrite critically. It's realistic. They whittle it down to what's possible. Watching, they say Mr. Miyazaki is a realist who doesn't lose his ideals. Both Mr. Miyazaki and Mr. Takahata say that, but I hear it from various people. Both are like that, but the gap between ideal and reality is... The two of them are slightly different. Mr. Takahata is not that detailed. (laughs) I think he is a strong person. In Hols, there is a constant, but I think there is unevenness. One cunning old man, and that person completes the village. In Nausicaa, there are about 300 people on the journey, and there is no one bad. Everyone is good. Mr. Miyazaki is a idealist, but when I watch his movies, he also pays attention to reality. Mr. Takahata, on the other hand, leaves reality aside. But when he starts making a film, even if it's not his own, he will support the film to completion. That's a fundamentalism. They are different. Can't you see? Even when it's late, it's not my responsibility. That's a matter of money. When the storyboard is done, you should grasp it. He follows through. In the movie, the content is very realistic, but the method is Miyazaki style. Exactly. The two of them number? What is this? After making Hols, and also Nausicaa, they drag Hols? The height is different. They make completely different things. I think Mr. Miyazaki is good. I once asked Mr. Takahata why his works aren't fantasy. He said that in Hols, they researched things like living customs and habits that they could research, and imagined what they could. The only thing they couldn't bring into that world was ideology. For fantasy, it has to be done by someone who can do it, or it's meaningless. So when Mr. Miyazaki was dragging the biblical law and making works, he must have a desire: to go back to something like Hols. That's the basis. I feel like he's been remaking Hols forever. I think Mr. Miyazaki's greatest work is Hols. In the last part of Nausicaa, Mr. Miyazaki's stuff is amazing. Many characters move freely, expanding the space. That's not something just anyone can do. It's a highlight. I think it's amazing. The way people move like that in 8 millimeters, and drawn by human hand, to create such a scene - when I first saw it, I wondered who did the design for the last four pages. Later I heard it was Mr. Miyazaki. As an otaku, what do you think? I'm not an otaku. Mr. Miyazaki is not an otaku either. He is just paying attention. It's hard to keep up with the rapids. Actually, this is called shame, and Avatar will come. If you get angry, you will become sushi? Well, for various reasons, I can't eat meat or fish. I'm a child, so I still don't like raw fish. So I thought this was no good. Here's cucumber. So, if you want to sleep, you can. You can eat. You don't have to make just this. This is hard to fix. Will it come? I can't eat things that move. You're sucking. Ninety-nine is really cucumber. Cover lose? Then being a kappa. (laughter) If you do it well, you can even get an egg. That's like saucer udon. I've been wondering about that. You asked Mr. Miyazaki to write a hanging scroll, and he did, and it's displayed. I thought it was Totoro. But it's definitely not. Thank you. Actually, Totoro has a real last scene, with Totoro stopping at the tree, and the camera pulls up to show the landscape, with Satsuki's house, a simple edge, a rice field, and then pan to a highway, dense houses, cars running - a modern scene. That's why I opposed it. I think that was the right decision. But he was quite insistent. He even drew pictures. When we made the picture book of My Neighbor Totoro, I included the original and the changed version at the beginning and end to show what Mr. Miyazaki wanted to do. As a producer, I was right to oppose. If that had been the ending, it wouldn't have sold as much. That's right. If it all ends in a dream, the audience wouldn't like it, especially children. For the scenario of Laputa, someone asked if I read it in a few different ways. I said it's a different building. This is a story of ambition and failure, in a way. That's right. What should we do? I wish Muska had more lines. I wanted Muska to be the main character. How was this? Until I heard, I thought it was good. I really like the Land of the Rising Sun. There is no in the middle of the movie. Before the mother and grandmother's story, I think the current length is too long. Even now I think it's long. When the mother leaves Sosuke, they become alone, from that point it doesn't work well. Until then it was great. That mother is good. The mother is a moving asset. I watched it and thought it had too much sexiness. That's good, it's something Mr. Miyazaki never had before. That's because he did live-action. That's what's good. Even now, it's something he couldn't do, so it's a great success. It's good. With just the war, it looks good. I got big. Mr. Miyazaki was a bit different. He's good at that. I think it's amazing that he can make a short film out of it. In the museum's short film, he does it alone. The girl is great. It was good because he did it with the intention of angering Mr. Miyazaki. That's right. That's amazing. It's good that he didn't put his hand in it, Kanda? If he had put his hand in again, he would have ruined it. He really held back, which shows he has matured or grown old. He taken on a role? It's like a direct copy. With energy, throw it. Even when he was young, I heard he was extremely spirited. He can't handle boring things. He's very good at saying no to layouts. He goes back a lot on his own, but still no good. That's quite a bit. But with heart, if you meet one of the best in the world, it's just not there. That way of handling space, maybe it's because he's getting older. He became very flat. That was tough. The story is amazing. The art is rather much simpler. That will again be filled by Barry. There was no Hollywood, but the spring is incomparably better. When it comes to talking about Hayao Miyazaki, I have plenty to say. I earnestly watch him. The ones I really learned from are really these two: Ichiro? and Hayao Miyazaki. I learned not only animation techniques but also the way of making things. I was under these two at the company. And I still do things like cash? I do stamps. We are very energetic. We sometimes meet. I really loved a certain person. He is an interesting person. He talks about the 'Banno Circus'? Because what he draws looks that way. I remember the first time I met him at Studio Habra Graviton. Moriyama Yuji was there. Actually, it was at Studio Minmin. Sakurai was there, and a free meter? Everyone gathered. At that time, he introduced himself, and he was moving. The order was a bit messy. At that time, I was doing a manga with Moriyama Yuji based on an original by Mamoru Oshii. It was called 'To sum up'? I would go to that studio once a month to get the manga manuscript. I wrote the script for Mamoru Oshii's story. He appeared there. He was homeless. He was staying at various places. At that time, how old was he? About 20? He was living in the studio. He was about 24. That was right after Nausicaa. At the time of Nausicaa, I couldn't say anything. He left his Osaka apartment and brought only a school bag. He went to Mr. Miyazaki's place. He said he had no place to stay. He left his luggage at a friend's house and slept at Topcraft. We moved that setup and made it in the reception room. He made it. He likes that. The gap between the wall and the animation paper was 60cm. He slept there. When Nausicaa started, I was told to work. At that time, at Topcraft, we made the film from scratch. He appeared. He brought something like a gap. He was doing production. Mr. Miyazaki liked his drawings and said he would be good here. Suddenly, he was thrown into the work. He is a persistent and viscous screen. He gave me four cuts. I'm glad it worked out. He entrusted me with his unique timing. But he doesn't show up. In Nausicaa, how many cuts? About two and a half months? The salary was so low that there was no balance. He was surprised. It was really cheap until then. Macross Moon? The TV show was a part-time job in college: 1800 yen per cut. 1800 yen. Mr. Miyazaki probably only uses energy on people who he thinks will be useful to him. That's what I learned during Nausicaa. (laughs) If you give the Giant Warrior to this guy, you can use the time to do other things. But his hand was amazing. Even though there were that many drawings, the length in seconds? Nana, how many seconds? 2.8 seconds? He cut it to about 10 seconds, but he worked for two weeks on it. Even then, it was amazing. I regret one thing about the Giant Warrior: it should have been in 'Nakao'? Mr. Miyazaki said 'Nago is fine'. But 'Nakao' would increase the number of frames and extend the time, so they wouldn't make it in time. So they said 'Nakao is fine, no shadows, just color'. That was thin. Nardo Kianu shadow? Two colors. Even so, if he allowed two colors, it was a help. If he added three colors, he would kill me. He really doesn't want to put shadows. But size can be shown with shadows. But that is a symbol, so because it's a symbol... He didn't do that. That's why, when the final competition was done, Mr. Takahata and I talked at a coffee shop in Asagaya about how the ending was. I think the movie ended well. Mr. Miyazaki's first version was: the Nausicaa simply lands in front of the Ohm and then the end mark. That would stop the Ohm's goddess. That was a problem. It wouldn't be understated. Should they go with that or not? At the site, there were two options: Nausicaa dies and becomes a legend, and three: after death, she is resurrected by being carried by the Ohm's feelers? Actually, he liked that one. So she was resurrected. That was a shock. Mr. Takahata went to tell Mr. Miyazaki. Mr. Miyazaki was not in that state, but he listened. He said he thought about it and thought the third was good. They made a quick decision. They are good at not overthinking. At that time, I saw the battle between the Giant Warrior and the Ohm. I couldn't write that. If it had been as in the storyboard, I would have liked to see it. Isn't the storyboard still around? Probably thrown away. Mr. Miyazaki throws things away without regret. I wish I had taken it. I would have liked to see it. It was cool. At the wrap party for Nausicaa, a young female staff member got drunk and asked Mr. Miyazaki how he could make such a film that destroys humanity. Mr. Miyazaki replied, 'It's fine as long as some life remains on this planet. It's fine if even humans disappear.' I was listening nearby and thought this person is amazing. That was the moment I liked Mr. Miyazaki. And then when it ended, he disappeared. After that, we met again after the broadcast. Why? Because it's a signboard. I think Nausicaa is Mr. Miyazaki's masterpiece. Apart from the Giant Warrior part, it really condenses and restrains his themes. Usually when he makes anime, he puts a filter, balances things out, makes himself look like a good person. But actually he's not; he's a bad guy. He's really a very extreme person, and that comes out directly in the manga. That was good. The negative part, I think I prefer the real him. The root of 'it's fine if humans die' is very good. Maybe we ourselves are dirty. He doesn't seem attached to people. When I read that line, I thought he likes the other side more than humans. But still, that's enough for me. He doesn't even have a permission? I would like to talk about it. If I told him to make Nausicaa 2, he would say 'that's Laputa, I think.' In Kichijoji, we talked originally five years ago. I seriously asked him if doing something else would be fine. I would produce it. I suggested a trilogy: maybe part two would be a kind of slaughter film, as he writes. Part two would say that, and then for the third part, if Anno did it, it would definitely become interesting with his content, and then end with part three from Mr. Miyazaki. It's a good set. He got angry. He said 'please stop'. It's about fighters. Not the last part? hmm.

As a person, you can't compare. It's about the works you make. Surpassing or not surpassing, that depends on what standard. I'm not unconscious. There is a hypothetical enemy. A hypothetical enemy is not overwhelming. Right now, I have a sense of rivalry with Mark? It's better than nothing. That's only mental. You need a hypothetical enemy. What is a hypothetical enemy? Fight to make something to fight? The one who fights is better. Like Koga's file, to surpass a target. It's a goal. It's a setting. A goal is not a destination. So having someone to drive me is not a big factor. That's why, when I said that, it was like that. If Mr. Miyazaki wasn't there, he said he makes these strange films because he is of the same time. Strange guy. If Mr. Miyazaki wasn't there, he wanted to make films like his. I don't know if he really could. But for Mr. Miyazaki, his hypothetical enemy is clear, someone called that. It's always been that way. Even now, every day we talk. If I talk about butterflies, half is about Mr. Takahata. I think so. Because Mr. Takahata is there, he makes films. Because Mr. Takahata tries to make, he makes. He wants Mr. Takahata to make it. That hasn't changed. He reads to children. He does it while saying, 'If I change this line, Mr. Miyazaki will scold me.' What a pure person. He has challenged that many times. I feel like he's doing it for that. Mr. Miyazaki thinks that he is wrapped in a big presence called Mr. Takahata. And he thinks that he himself wants to do something within that shadow. That's interesting. There is that. Exactly. Mr. Miyazaki goes his own way, so he goes his own way. After all, he has been making things with Mr. Miyazaki all along. The person who has been making things is recognized by the world. He has a deeper interest in what I'm making now than anyone. He checks the content, grasps it, and tries to organize it. He is a person I care about. I would care. It's different. Touching that era. Someone is working hard, so I work hard. Who is that? Has Mr. Miyazaki ever been a hypothetical enemy? Yes, there is. When Mr. Miyazaki was a hypothetical enemy, which work? At that time, it was Mononoke. Exactly. During the so-called master-disciple rivalry, when the Evangelion movie and Ghibli movie were being made at the same time, Mononoke was the one. It was almost simultaneous. I didn't care about the box office. I wanted to win in content. But that's only my subjective view.

If you only respect, you lose yourself. If you only rebel, you receive nothing. Work under someone you chase, receive their genes, and without being swallowed, create your own new work. That is probably very difficult. Probably what Anno-san and Miyazaki-san are quietly fighting about is that place where many winds collide violently.

I think I have to think about it. That kind of real type is interesting. Even now, I'm working on Arietty. The so-called directing was done by Miyazaki-san? No, actually it was all done by him. The young director? Actually, he is older than me? I think it's a good trend. People who are good at teaching need to teach, right? Mr. Miyazaki probably finds it hard to teach people from nothing. Actually, making works is a good place to teach. That's better. That's Eva. After the TV series, I was completely wiped out. I dropped hard and then bounced back. In a way, he encouraged me. Looking back, I really was thinking that living on like this was pointless. At that time, he gave me a phone call and told me to rest. He said it's fine to rest for half a year. I thought, 'No way, he's resting for three years.' But it helped. I have two things. After all, I love anime. I think that made me want to make anime again. Mr. Miyazaki, please come. You'll feel better. I think he likes things like that. He still has a sponge that absorbs. I heard he's doing that. So, to go along with that, I said I would do it. But he didn't come. Just one photo. That's fine.

Nausicaa's journey did not end. Man can be destroyed. It's fine if only one thing remains on this planet. Ten years after Anno heard those words, in 1994, director Hayao Miyazaki completed Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. The following year, in 1995, director Hideaki Anno started the TV series Neon Genesis Evangelion. In the final episode of the TV series, the old movie version has this monologue: 'As long as the sun, moon, and Earth exist, it's okay. All life has the power to recover.' The world of Evangelion seems to overlap with the legend of the Seven Days of Fire in Nausicaa. Director Hideaki Anno may have depicted the distant past that gave birth to the world of Nausicaa, the creation of the Giant Warrior. The Valley of the Wind is a time and space where various unique people sprawl. It is a place where you receive something and give something back.