Good morning, Alex. We are sitting here in the middle of the mountains of Idaho near Sun Valley in your beautiful house. I remember very well when we met for the first time. It was in 2003. It was at a party in southern France and somebody introduced you to me preparing me by saying Alex Karp is a super interesting guy. He studied at a good university in Frankfurt. Jürgen Habermas was his professor. He's an intellectual. Unfortunately, he has no job. Penniless, but an interesting guy. We met, we got along very well. And I have the feeling this is a guy who is rather on the left side of the political spectrum, very intellectual personality, cares a lot about the state of democracy, about individual rights. And today this guy has launched one of the most successful companies of recent business history, Palantir. Market cap currently north of 300 billion. And certainly people are describing you like a kind of Darth Vader, a sinister figure of far right-wing ideologies and almost like a war bunker. Please tell me what happened. Did you change?
Well, first of all, the Palantir thing is Palantir has a hundred more fans than people who describe me that way. In fact, my personal experience including in Germany, including and especially in Germany, is the media version, and I'll get to that, is you something like, you know, bringing war to peace times or something. But the actual rational human being on the street is a Palantir fan. Part of our success. There's the product side which we could talk about. There's also like put this way every single person in Silicon Valley who finances things would cut off their right arm to have the fans we have and their and your left arm. So, but the many things in your question and I remember meeting you two and thinking, 'Oh, this is a really interesting person.' And you know well how does somebody who studies music end up running what I mean for those who are not in the German speaking world it's funny outside the German speaking world people do not understand the impact of Axel Springer and which Axel Springer which you it's you know it's easy to say you run but it's it's different you know in Germany there really aren't that many I can't think of any other owner or someone who owns a significant stake in the company that's also running it. So it's very very unusual setup. It's more similar to America but then we don't have essentially a second generation business run by an owner. So even in America that the whole setup is very very unusual. And then you know Yeah. I mean, what I think bound us together from the beginning is you're a it doesn't translate well into English, but a music scientist. So, we don't really have science and music and I guess in America, but it sounds kind of fake, even though I'm sure there is a faculty of that. But in any case, that's a very unusual setup on your end.
Yeah, we are both outsiders. That's absolutely true. And we both are polarizing. That's also fair to say. I just tried to get it why a person that I met almost a quarter century ago and whom I've met during that time very regularly and I did not observe any change in your world view or in your personality now the description of you the outside picture of you is in sharp contrast
Well, let me answer the question. It's the exact right framing but I still want to push back on it. There's almost no one else in tech, maybe one or two that were who has anything like the fans I have. So it's there's this both the outside kind of I would say especially in Europe much less so here version of me Palantir which is exactly what you described but I just want to also highlight the dynamic that these people also create fans like whenever I do something I'm basically only talk to Germany through you now and I get hate but I would say a hundred times more fans writing hey could you please thank you for helping Germany especially especially young people who are want to do things in Germany as an example. So any case, but let me get to let me answer your question directly without the caveat. But I do think there's a European and American difference here. But our products PG changed the course of history by reducing basically I mean there have been minor terror attacks and terror attacks can always happen but since we launched the product you have it has stopped hundreds and hundreds of terror attacks.
But Alex, you then simply describe the mission of Palantir, what you think Palantir is doing to society, what is the mission in order to help people to decide whether they should fear us.
Well, again, but let me just answer the I'm trying to get to the question you're asking which is a really deep question. Why would people want to portray us so inaccurately is my version of the question and I think there's a functional reason for that and the function there really twofold and here I'm going to use Europe as an example. One the products worked too well so people can afford it. The terror attacks in Europe have basically been reduced to something that's not something people are afraid of even though there are way too many attacks on the streets especially of Germany and that but people view that as an immigration problem not as a terror problem right or wrong and two our products play a significant role in Ukraine so Russia and Russia doesn't appear to be winning so I think the setup to answer the pounder attack thing especially in Europe you also have to say why can Europe why does Europe believe they can afford to hack Palantir and I'm telling you the primary reason is because and this is a Palantir problem. Our products were well were powerful enough that people believe they can afford it which is again okay so then what and so like so then you so that's I think the backdrop then why would you want to perceive us that way and I do think there's a Europe and an American difference and it basically comes down to America is hypercharging AI and tech and has these phenomenal and that's where I do think the reason why you're kind of a bridge between America and Europe There are lots of reasons but one of them is you look like more like an American business person like you own the company there's a big like that's a banality but it's also true and if you are saying like essentially just take a neutral example American businesses versus European businesses American businesses believe they're at war all the time so if you show up with a product that is demonstrably better on all scores in America and in Europe You're going to have a very different reception. In America, it's going to it's not going to be I like or do not like the person, although most American businesses love Palantir, but it's going to be how does it work? Why does it work? Does it transform my business? Does the technology work? Is the technology stealing my IP? And in Europe, you can't really afford to ask these questions or they're not being asked correctly because the answer to the question would be some significant part of that infrastructure is going to have to be imported from America.
I mean, you have described me many times that your main goal, your mission is to protect democracy, and that's your what you're doing, I think, quite efficiently. Nevertheless, the debate in Europe is mainly these guys are collaborating with the American Secret Service. That's bad. That's dangerous. What do we get wrong? I mean, to work with the Secret Service of democracy in order to protect democracy, I think is a good thing. But why why is that perceived problematic? Why are German states boycotting Palantir and portray you as a force of evil although you are obviously just on the side of democracies.
Um, I just but nobody sees it that way outside of Europe. I mean we have Europe that's a widespread sentiment. The point I would say to especially Germany where I care is that really the wides is that that is I think that's way downstream of very bad decision-making. So they perceive Palantir. By the way, again, I really, really, deeply believe the they here are the professional media, left of center politicians, people who equate Palantir and me with an old version of Germany, which they do not want. And that the vast majority of Germans, the vast majority of Germans would prefer a world where the decision-making was rational enough so you could evaluate Palantir in a rational way. That's what I believe. Are you brother?
But let me just get to the technical point that I think is very important is the decision-making is objectively wrong from the perspective of how would you protect the data? You need an application layer. And so the crazy thing about what's happening in Europe is we have the only industrial industrially user application layer in the world. That application layer protects your data from being essentially abused by large language model providers. So what you have in Europe are technically illiterate bureaucrats that in the name of protecting their people from a company they don't like because they don't like basically what Palantir and I represent which in my view is actually old school European values. Old school European values mean the products are the best in the world and they actually are morally superior because of the competence involved and every single one of our products is like that. Those products cannot touch. So I so you're framing it as a moral thing. I'm saying the moral thing is way downstream of the competence problem. And if you were to solve the if you want to solve the competence problem in tech in Europe, which is the bigger problem like Europe is not a relevant market for Palantir except for that I care.
The main accusation is data surveillance. Palantir is a form of espionage and the most aggressive term was you are technofascists. You are rather on the side of data surveillance or are you rather on the side of
Well, first of all, the most interestingly fascinating thing if it wasn't sad and very very cowardly is the products we provide PG for which is what's used in the police forces and intel services in Europe, Foundry, Ontology which is used in the Ukraine and Ontology is essentially an application layer. These products are the products you will need and the only ones available at scale that I'm aware of to stop what people mean by surveillance. What do we mean by surveillance? What should Europe mean by surveillance? What it should mean is the IP the indigenous know-how that still powers Europe gets migrated to a different company in a company that's not European that has no interest in Europe that is not going to protect either the rights meaning your right to privacy your right to that data being purged also your right to have I mean in Europe one of the things I've always embraced is in America we have rights that are basically moral rights in Europe you have economic rights and they're intertwined which is always the vexing discussion. So the vexing discussion between America and Europe is from the American perspective, you don't protect rights enough vis-à-vis government. So Europe, no European country has anything like a first or second amendment. That's vexing. And the fourth amendment in Europe is probably the closest in America's closest to what you have, meaning the right to privacy. But even there, without going to technical details, we have widely divergent ideas of how to do that basic. And so and then the vexing thing from a European perspective is Americans have all these rights vis-à-vis the government but you have no right of protection vis-à-vis companies and there are basically you have a right to succeed or fail here. You don't have a right to economic justice. I mean that's maybe something people want politically but in the constitution that is not enshrined. So you have a completely different idea of rights. I actually am a classic progressive. I'm more I'm still American in that I like my first, second, and fourth amendment, but I would like to see better treatment for poor. Okay.
So, you would still describe yourself as a progressive, correct?
Oh, I would describe myself as one of the few last standing actual progressives in that I believe well, first of all, I'm willing to defend the rights of someone I don't like. Okay, that somehow is gone. And again, it's particularly gone in Europe. Like, they frame this as I don't like you. How is that relevant like why do we moralize everything also if it is about Germans who have been very successful in America in the Silicon Valley Peter Thiel, Tobi Lütke, Phil Schindler so there are a couple of Germans who made impressive careers in the Silicon Valley and we in Europe and in Germany do so far not really take advantage of it but first we moralize we say well there must be something.
Well, there's a difference in like I mean as a generalization, Germany is a very Lutheran culture and we're a Calvinist culture. So that like we equate success with being like the Swiss are Calvinist, the Dutch are Calvinist, but as a generalization, I would say Europe in general and Germany obviously in particular is a Lutheran culture where Lutheran culture tends to view massive success you've acquired during your lifetime with great skepticism. Calvinist, we're like peak Calvinism. Maybe we even take it too far where we ascribe financial success to moral success. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. The way I tend to want to frame the question is but the excess in Europe and moralizing is clearly in my view downstream from not wanting to solve the problems and so and then and I think Palantir is the archetypical example you can say basically against all technical evidence that Palantir are technofascist what would that mean and that we're engaged in surveillance when our products are actually the ones that stop that. Or you can ask the more serious question, what has gone wrong in our culture that we have no other application layer that would allow us to do this?
Probably the most impactful and successful German of recent decades is Peter Thiel. You know him well. He was the co-founder of Palantir. Is he an anti-democrat? Is he a religious fanatic? Could you
No, I mean I so actually the way I would reframe the beginning of the question is I think my treatment in Germany is it's not what it should be but it's honestly given that I how much money I've made fairer than you could think. I think the treatment of Peter is atrocious.
Well, first of all, again, it's one of the things I really you're I would start with again, and it's a very German concept. See, again, I think what is happening what scares me a lot in Germany is it's an importation of a version of America on top of German ideals that are have kind of are attenuated. And so the real question to ask is I think the question historically one would have asked in Germany is can we afford this? Can we afford not to learn from this person? And I think that's the right question Germany should ask.
Well, you make a point and could say well it depends on where the person stands with regard to values. So if somebody is intrinsically anti-democratic or has a leaning towards a regime That's a different thing than this person I think should not be used should not be a role model. The question is here is it a misunderstanding or is there a point?
No no I'm going to first of all it is a misunderstanding. It's not true but I'm going to push back on that. I don't I you can I'm reading books on Deng Xiaoping. I read a book on Mao I'm reading books on Mao. I've read a lot of books on I learn I'm learning a lot from Mao and Deng. I don't agree with Mao on anything like so like I don't believe anyone can afford not to learn. And if you're in a very bad situation, let's just take an obvious example. The German tech scene. The German tech scene should be the number two in the world by any historical standard. Honestly, the German tech scene was the number one in the world. So number two is already like maybe shouldn't be the aspiration. It's on no one's list there. You're one of the more successful investors in Germany. You know, you probably know successful companies in Germany, but the most largest company in Germany by market cap I think is Siemens and Palantir is significantly larger even where we're obviously undervalued. So currently, so my first cut and you see this in this like where you know, you and I have been friends and we actually agree on the moral stuff pretty much one to one pro-democracy. What does democracy mean? Pro-democratic progression alignment with the west. We should have an alliance that is those of us who don't agree that alliance should be western Europe, America, the five eyes and Israel and Japan and Korea. So we agree on those things and many other things almost deongish meaning with almost but where I think there is distance would be my approach which is I would the first question I would ask is can Germany afford not to learn from Peter even if all those things were true. Now you're right it has it should be clarified. I've known Peter since we were poor students at Stanford. We had conversations as like just poor students fighting about intellectual things. He was always heterodox right. I was always heterodox left. I don't think much has changed. He's still heterodox right. Meaning he's very frustrating to classic Republicans. He's never been a neocon. Like a lot of the thing he does he's never he actually does not really believe in classic Republican economic theory. He was the first person to flag and will always flag like in conversations you tend to have people on the right basically explaining all problems as the result of capitalism not being driven far enough. That's just not Peter's view. He's not a simplistic or caricature thinker on the right meaning and he's definitely not the caricature that the left wants to present. But what's fascinating to me is why is it so important to spend so much time blocking Peter from the German market? Forget Palantir. Like forget it's not like I want to help Germany because I care about Europe and because I have a I mean because of historical family and also I just felt at home in Germany for a long time. But for me that's because like let me just reframe the moral thing. It's so obviously thin what they're saying about him, what they say about Palantir. So obviously doesn't make sense on the merits. You only need 10 minutes, five minutes on Google to see this isn't true. Why do people want to and need to believe that truth was the question that I believe. And by the way, it's not that different. I mean, you're talking about Peter and me. I could ask you the same question. Like I've known you for not as long as I've known Peter, but and you were very successful before I was. I mean I don't the German non-German audience may not realize how Axel Springer is discussed. Okay. So like there I think there are very important political figures in Germany without naming names that see no difference between you and the right side of the AfD. Okay. It's absurd. I believe most of my left-wing friends in Germany think Axel Springer wakes up in the morning and tries to make the world worse and goes to bed with a smile when the world is worse. This obviously not true.
What is your take actually on the rise of the AfD in Germany as somebody who has studied in Germany, speaks German, cares very much about the well-being of the country. We see now this kind of polarization of society. The very left and the far right are on the rise and the AfD, what is it for you? Is it a normal party or is it
I think the AfD is very complex and I'm not reading all the news all the time. I give you I think first of all the rise of the extreme parties was super predictable and I may have been shouting about this for the last 10 years. You can't if you're going to bring in doing wide square very deep and large migration into Germany without the buy-in of the German people and without an honest discussion of the consequences. Again, I understand why this is hard to do in Germany and it's completely about history which you know if my family hadn't left Germany I would be a lampshade. I mean they left before the Holocaust. I'm very everybody understands that and is sympathetic but we haven't you have in Europe but especially in Germany just an impossibly difficult painful inability to talk about obvious facts but the average person on the street is living with these facts. Okay.
You know avoiding my question what do you think about the AfD. Palantir is defending Ukraine against Russia. The AfD is asking Ukraine and just recently one of the leaders said we have to force Ukraine at the table to negotiate with Russia. That is turning history and perpetrator and
I totally I'm going to get to the point where I agree with you. I just I again we're like you're starting with the moral thing. I'm starting with the economic reason and cultural reason why this thing exists. See the question you asked is why have they why are they in ascendency? And the AfD is much stronger than they appear because I have friends who 5 years ago were telling me they would never vote for the AfD who are voting for the AfD. Like people who are social democrats and then when the AfD is polling at 40% there's another 10 points above that that would vote for them if they weren't the AfD.
But honestly I think the AfD is just the consequence of weak leadership in the center of political spectrum. But that does not necessarily mean that that disruption is done by a force by a political force that has a concept that will be good for Germany. I personally think that the AfD is just not an alternative because it is intrinsically in large parts of the party, pro-Russia, pro-China, even with a certain tolerance to well, I mean forces in the Middle East, it is in large parts intrinsically anti-capitalist. It is in large parts anti-American. Just recently we heard that Germany is divided in two parts. We have East Germany, where are the German Germans and then we have West Germany, where are the American Germans. Okay. So this is just not an alternative. And I just would like from you because some people are accusing Peter or you that you have a certain leaning or understanding for that.
Well, this is again I basically agree with everything you said, but the point I would push back on I have a deep understanding for why they're succeeding. So it's like I would not vote for the AfD if I were able to vote and were voting in Germany. And but that's different from I think part of the reason they're successful is the first of all no one actually believes like let's just say the parties the classic parties are actually going to take migration seriously but no one believes they're going to do it. So you get people voting for the AfD basically because you know it's a protest vote and you know you're Germans and people who care about Germany like me have been screaming and been right and no one listens and not only does no one listen and you are a great example of this you are honestly pretty left-wing on most issues as far as I can tell and I've known you for 20 years and you're kind of classically, if I were to describe you, classically left-leaning person who's a little bit more bought into the capitalist narrative than I am. That's how I would describe if I were describing. So, okay, you get pilloried and you tell everybody I'm against the AfD. God knows you have no sympathy for anyone who's pro-Russia. I mean, like you believe for that like we're on the front line for Putin. I should always clarify, we have nothing against the Russians. We have nothing against the Chinese, but we have a lot against
I'm a Tai Chi. I'm an expert in one of the four great treasures in China. I'm reading all these things. I have a deep appreciation of Russian culture, Russian math. I have So, we agree on that. But shorthand, if I were to say what I think motivates you, after watching you for 20 years is you are deeply pro-democratic. You're kind of progressive on most issues except for you do not like you don't want anything that's stupid and won't work. And if I had to say where you're kind of a zealot, it's on the, you know, anti-Putin, anti-China stuff and actually on no tolerance for anti-semitism. So that's your those those are your positions. Those positions are I mean they're solidly mainstream. And I can tell people who are listening and want to hear this like if like even in private discussions are like I'm much more on like yeah I want to understand why still of course I'm not going to I'm not interested in voting for them but I understand why and you're more on the they're wrong they're wrong they're wrong which is why our dialogues are fun. This is basically like it would be in private. Okay. So the Palantir we something I am actually frustrated with in Europe is again the anti-terror things would be very different and Ukraine would not have been able to succeed there. Okay, let me just finish this. But so obviously I'm not interested in supporting a party that is deeply sympathetic with Putin, is interested in like I think I think Europe made it like the CCP that is sympathetic with the CCP and quite frankly these parties are complex but they're you know the AfD does contain people that I kind of would suspect would not like me very much.
Um okay, Alex, I think the frustration of people is very much driven by a failed migration policy, a failed energy policy and that Germany and Europe is completely and the GDP not delivering exactly is not delivering on economic growth. That has to do with a lack of startup culture of risk culture in America. people deploy millions to a new idea and just believe that the impossible is possible. Whereas in Europe and in Germany we have to a large degree a very risk focused culture.
Yeah. But and here we are entering the era of AI and whether it's an opportunity or a threat. And I think we should also discuss the cultural differences between America and Europe and Germany in the context of these developments. I think we could turn it around and we could say this is now an opportunity because I see a lot of AI skepticism in America. I see in America almost more AI skepticism at this moment than in Europe among normal people. If we have an all hands in America, people are raising posters and saying AI is killing our jobs. If we do the same in Germany or in Europe, people are saying well we want to learn, we want to understand, we want to take advantage of it. Do you think that there could be?
Well, yeah, but not without acknowledging that there's a crisis for the very simple reason. First of all, the debate is different. Europe is partly not skeptical of AI because you are not like for example, take the Palantir example. We are the only product available that makes AI useful on the battlefield and safe and useful and safe and commercial. It's very hard to discuss AI when what they mean are largely companies being slightly unfair that would not be able to compete in America. So they you're talking about AI light but the thing is
But let's talk also about the opportunity. I mean I get it and we agree that Germany has not delivered, Europe has not delivered. What can we do? Let me just finish this.
It you can't it is nothing's going to work before the chancellor gets up and says we have an AI crisis because to fix the problem again you are going who's going to fix the problem? The problem is you are going to have to bring in a Tobi Lütke or a Schindler or a Thiel as in a very significant role you can't rebuild with people who've never done this before. And so and then who's going to build under what conditions? What are the working conditions? How do you bring the whole society along? How much can someone work per day? Tech works because people work are dedicated like doggedly dedicated around the clock for years. And by the way, if somebody doesn't belong on the team, you can move them out of the team or out of the company. By the way, the for tech people, again, I'm wildly I the people I got along with best when I was on boards in Germany were the union. So, I'm not saying but you don't need worker protection for someone who isn't a software engineer that could work at an LLM lab. So, but to get this to work, you have to have someone saying this is a crisis. I think you're also going to have to say this is an economic zone. We are going to create an economic zone in
