How i met Winy Maas – MVRDV

Maybe I should answer your question. How I look to Czechia and why I would do it or to be here? So there's a couple of things. I see an energy in the Czech society to be more European, to want strongly to be part of a bigger picture. And so from a certain introvert, it's gradually moving to an extrovert. That both your politic, your president is already more reaching out, and it happens also with the architectural society. It was open I would say in the 20s and 30s of the last century with the international movements. And now you see with all the diaspora, all the people that go around, also with the European spirit to collaborate, that especially the Czech Republic has an interest to talk about architecture. The young generation wishes to talk and I see a certain energy coming up to that, for better and for worse. And we can go deeper in it. That's one. For me personally, I think also it's important in a Europe that goes eastward in a way, and knowing that Prague is not East but is in the center of Europe, but it was a kind of peninsula in the past of this puzzle. And I think from my practice, it's important I try to work globally, I try to work in many places. I cannot avoid geopolitics, and in that way I sympathize also with that possible new position of this say Middle Eastern European situation. And I find myself then also confront with this emerging energy not only in Czechia, also I see that in Albania much more exuberant I would say, but with another history and another kind of time span. And that explains a little bit my interest and also my observation on both the architecture domain and the political situation. So I work on that also again for better and for worse.

The question how tough is to be global because you are doing in a lot of countries, so you have quite a short time to see the context, to understand the context, understand the people and the society. And how tough is for you and for the office MVRDV to do it? It's not tough, it's beautiful to start with, and it also gives us challenges to see how we can deal with that because there are more offices dealing with that. So one thing to say: I think we want to be in dialogue with many places in the world because at the moment that you kick out a country, then for many reasons what you have to do now in Russia, but then you want to stay in dialogue. So we develop a protocol within the office: how can we deal, why can we make a difference, can we add something to it, what are bad and good things in countries according to our limited observation, and can we do something about it even if it's little? That's a way of working on the geopolitical situation. But in principle, I think working in the Middle East means that there is a complicated situation in Palestine or in Israel. How working there in both situations, how to work that at the same moment in the Emirates or in Oman? A longer relationship with Oman because that will be the next part of your question: how to deepen the relationships. So basically, first thing is to be open and to try to engage on the nuances and try to engage in a wider perspective and to apply that on your work. How to do that is, for me again personally and I think for more people in the office, you fall in love with certain places. You cannot do everything, so in order to deepen, you want to do longer with the situation. Like Albania is an example that we work there since 15 years. What can you do then? Because then you can engage, you can see the good and bad things, you can also try, you have a right to make criticism because you can apply that in a new nuanced manner. And say the buildings that come up or the projects in Albania that come up at the moment show in a way how provocation can be used in a country that wants to emerge. So kind of shows a love to encourage development in a country which was the poorest in Europe and was maybe also the weirdest in Europe, and wants to bring in 20 years go from nothing to almost everything in terms of GDP, in terms of attraction, wants to become part of the European society, and does that I think in a very specific and special way and uses urbanism and architecture to make the country better, to make it safer, to make it less corrupt.

Well, your question has more layers. One, I'm not against spectacular architecture. I think in general, we have to use buildings that somehow show directions and be remarkable because there is a majority of the built environment which has not a very good quality or has things lacking. Sometimes through architecture that can emphasize things that are lacking or that can add to it, people can see it and people can therefore take it with you. Doesn't it to be remarkable? I think remarkability doesn't have to be everywhere. We are talking about like 1% of the built production in general. The majority is actually very modest and actually sometimes very ugly. And I think the role of remarkable architecture is to somehow show possibilities that are sometimes impossible in the majority of the built production. So I only plead to use it as an instrument. The making of remarkable buildings, some people say iconic, some say spectacular, to test futures, to show directions, to discuss directions, and also to encourage potential experimentation which we need in our societies to think about the future and to make new directions. So that's one. The second element: I love diversity. I know that there are architects that copy themselves and put the same kind of architecture everywhere over the planet, and I hope that our work shows that we go into the context. In that way, in order to understand the context, you have to fall in love, to deal with the society, with the complexity of that specific zone. You have to avoid cliches about that society. That's another part. I will not make immediately like crystal buildings in Czechia, don't worry, because that emphasizes specific role unless it adds to innovation. So that's one. I hope that our projects can be seen as when we do the pyramid in Tirana, it looks like that. Another aspect that I cannot avoid but I think is also very helpful is the reflection from outside on a society. So having global perspectives, what is an agenda on climate, on accessibility, on the social agenda, on law systems, on fiscal, on openness, on non-openness, on participation, that can then help a little bit to put that in this contextual architecture, to update or to criticize certain aspects that are especially in urbanism lacking sometimes from that perspective. So you can see that I think in our method at the moment here in the faculty to work on the Czech Republic as an entity. So we show how good Czechia is in that book in this research that comes out soon.

For instance, I was shocked that the water quality of the rivers is worse than I thought it would be compared to other countries in Europe. But I'm talking about the way how sewage systems sometimes are entering some of your streams. I'm also pointing out how the agriculture is not that clean and spills out in the water systems here and there. So it's more like sewer management than your factories of water that are dealing with this issue. So you start like an architect and in the end you will find a problem in a sewer system, and you have to solve the sewer system. Right? No, in this case of water, it's a very important part of our urbanism in the future because it's like we worked the same way in Switzerland on what is the program of Switzerland. And there you have to keep the water longer before it goes into the rain. It's given an example how to store that in soils, in water systems, in cities, and in basins, in small lakes or infiltration systems. That changes the landscape and the cities a lot more than you think. So it is a way of trying to find agendas for our cities and how to incorporate that into our urbanism and into our architectures. And here in Prague, I would dream that some of the parks next to the river, the Vltava, would actually be more floodable and to have them like not swamps but like beach-like things that could be, if that could be like Malá Strana for instance, that would be great. To imagine certain kind of new parks that would enlarge that river basin and to protect the environment from flooding. Because I need more than only Malá Strana, I need the whole basin to do that.

One thing of course to say first that Bjarke and I look to each other, I think so. We are kind of companions in the same struggle and to bring this agenda into our little things also. So one thing to add to that: I'm an architect, I'm a landscape architect, and I'm an urbanist by training. I even started as a florist when I was a kid because my parents, they had a garden center, and I became garden architect first and then went into it. So that already helped. Then I went into architecture, that already helped to go beyond the object, beyond the little cube house one could say, and to say okay, what is needed? Well, if I calculate simply the amount of houses that we have in the world or the amount of tables or the amount of products, then I think if we improve a house and multiply the effect, the effect is tremendous on a global scale. So it informs our architecture. This global overview helps to set an agenda to it, and it connects also with an ambition that I think I share not only with Bjarke but also with a big young generation to do something on this planet: to deal with the fight, to deal with the social inequality, to deal with the green development that is needed. And we can wait to other scientists prove it, no, I have to do it also. So it was my ambition to span the gap between those two scales, to have that. And more than ever, this combination of research and building becomes more important and is also doable to do it. The fact that universities give you also ways of exploring that, that they say don't only design the houses but yes, your research is on the city of the future, where your research is on the effect of plants on the built environment, etc. That makes you can contribute a little bit to that agenda, to this gap that is between the two scales.

But does it make sense to try to solve it on a whole world scale? Because history showed us that if you want to improve something, those improvements are always step by step. Very true. It's not done in one goal. And landscape architects are by nature much more thinking about time than architects. Architects think only about one building, it's ready next year, done, and that's it. So landscape architects have to deal basically with management over time, with maintenance, with the power of nature, and that's what we can learn from them and turn it to use that. And I know it's step by step, but exactly that step by step is an interesting point because what is that step that you do? It could be a prototype of what the world of the future could be and what how it could look like. And that I think gives content to the word remarkable architecture what we just discussed. It gives an infill that we need this kind of prototypes to test what a new configuration of cities can be. And therefore I defend also the system of cultural system of trying to test that. And there can be failures. And I know that Czechia has a kind of they want to avoid failures because of the past, so there is cultural tension on that. And the Netherlands has more will to experiment for sake of existence I would say. And that is part of the game because we are thinking about longer process, longer time, and we don't know future exactly but we can do already some parts. So we can summarize it like that: if only 1% of this big vision will move forward, it's kind of achievement. True. And then to add to that, because it will be very different, because this 1% will behave differently in a desert than it will behave say in Norwegian land, or than it will do in the Netherlands, or will be in Czechia. I think that's the fascinating component of trying to be global and as well being global.

A beautiful question by the way. It's 350 people that we have in the office at the moment, and there are more universities. I'm happy that we have so many people so they can work and concentrate on different zones. I'm also happy that in the office we have special groups that can manage a bit the complexity of what you just try to paint. I started maybe 20 years ago with a group in the office that can do scripting, so that's concentrating on developing software to make our buildings ourselves. It transforms data into products, like the Valley building in Amsterdam where the facade is a composition of balconies, bay windows, planters, and terraces stacked on top of each other. But by having parameters on cost, parameters on soil, parameters of light, wind, on privacy, we could compose this fertilized landscape, vertical landscape of this rock we call the Valley. So that shows the importance to dismantle our complexity and to turn it into productivity and into makeable architecture. This counts for urbanism even more. In urbanism, everybody has a voice, everybody wants to say something about it. How to turn that into kind of 50% plus? In democracy, in participation, statistical truths or directions, that's what the scripting group tries to do in order to understand our ecological behavior. Like we make at the moment a footprint calculator. Every element that we do needs to be compensated by nature or by the ecological footprint that we do. So you want to bring the footprint to one, almost to keep it to the complete recycling element. We do this calculator both on the scale of a building, of a neighborhood, a city plan, as well as of a country. So like Luxembourg is now what we do there, this footprint calculator helps them to formulate a program on the future of Luxembourg country and to negotiate economies and budgets for that.

So that is one thing the office tries to do: to already invest over time in that kind of tools to deal with the complexity. We did that partly with the help of universities. So we teach in universities to develop software on already 20 years. You can read it in KM3, I did a big chapter on that. We were fascinated from the very beginning, so we didn't have any money for software, software is super expensive, but like startups you just do it. Somehow this culture of being a startup is what we continue even after 30 years. Now this group of MVRDV Next, it's called MVRDV Climate, young kids try to simply develop it. How to put money in that? You get some money from a commercial client that wants to also contribute to that, or you put some of your earnings in it. And the generic fact that it's also usable for more people, that's what you try in universities. So I'm happy that we have an internal research department in the office gradually growing bigger because of the growth. The fact that we have a bigger office, I can pay more for that. But universities are also very important. I'm always happy to have a relationship with that, but that's public, it's not commercial. So I have to do things in a university where that is open source, that everybody can see, not connected to copyright issues. In an office it is, and it's public task also that can do. But the universities are also the places where you can experiment more than in the office. We use public budgets basically to do something to improve the conditions for architecture or to bring it one step further. In this kind of places, young students have to be learned not only a profession but have to think also about the future. So that is what we can do here. We can do here things that we cannot do in the office only. Here we can speculate further. Here is the budget of that laboratory to test this new softwares that can be given to the world. Here we can test like possible governmental collaborations on how to improve a country or how to improve a city, some things that you cannot always do in an office. So I'm very happy that hopefully this method that I try to embody will be also now for everybody, that more that your office can do that also in the future, that we try to establish a culture where the practice talks with the academia and where the academia becomes sexy and becomes respectful and visible and communicates with society. And sometimes the university world is so introvert. I then when I compare that with Wageningen University, which is an agricultural university in the Netherlands, the soul of the Netherlands, there they every week they show on the front page of the national newspapers their recent explorations. With just short messages, this comes this comes out beautiful. It's like wow, what agronomy can do, wow, what water management can do. That you can see it on our front page of the newspaper. That is what we have to stay in contact between the two.

I am very aware that this history what you describe has led to an enormous skepticism in these countries on national planning for instance, or this kind of agendas actually thinking about the future. It has harmed a little bit your progress. Because one, I think it's very because at the moment it is harder to discuss in that way what national planning can do because of that, because you are so skeptical what happened with us that type of planning. And I agree with you on that. Wait a minute, that's not that. The national plans of those days were limited. But also two things: one, liberty is extremely important, individualism you have to give place. But it touches collectivism at a certain moment. You need to have a collective answer on infrastructure, you need in order for investments, but you as an individual cannot play. The amount of high-speed rail links in Czechia is zero, like so there is. Or even the water system needs improvement, you can only do it collectively. So I'm a bit afraid that when you refer too much to those times, you blind yourself a little bit of the necessities that are how to build them, how to give an answer. Yes, it has to be participatory, yes it has to be open-minded, yes it has to give space for reflection and criticism in a way, but it also has to give for production in a way and measuring what we are doing.

What I see is that it depends a bit on the place. Here again, your observation on diversity of places is also happening in education. Certain schools are already much more experimental than others. I was witnessing in Prague the education was very much oriented towards designing white cubic houses with square windows, okay? So that which is covering this territories missed a bit the larger agenda. So that's what I tried to add. And I find then that students, some of them, for them it's a relief to enter this kind of studios where you can think about a bigger scale in a free way. And others are very skeptical about it exactly on the points that we are discussing because they have a certain fear also to go in that direction. It's a new territory and they are very hooked to that stiff way of educating people. That's different than in Delft where the issue of everything is possible has been cultivated already for 20 years. So there concentration is a very important subject. How to concentrate on a subject and deepening it because opening the box that happened the last 20 years in the Netherlands, but now it's maybe hard to transform this opening act into possible makeable new buildings or new kind of urbanism or new kind of architecture. So that is something.

You concentrate more on in-depth studies on material, how good is biological material. You certain in depth on can we make mobility that it's changeable? What is the density that we should allow for to make new tram lines? So you go very much into technology that serves the bigger perspectives, and that becomes hardcore research again. That's instead of the house. I think our new research on what we call the four-minute city, so that we achieve in four minutes we can do that. What kind of densities are needed in any type of vehicle from a tram to a horse? That will be then shown in these models that we then develop. So that helps then to convince governments to make density a certain, that helps them to also steer the traffic department, which is normally very incestuous and inside, to open up potential research. But that is the state of the art what we achieved I think in the Netherlands or in other places to make more in-depth researches. Here in Prague, first I have opened the box, or to get that I have to open the box and relationship with the agricultural university or with the department of chemistry here to make new products. At the moment there was no collaboration between the different faculties to do that, and that is fascinating to explore so again.

Well, in the case of Czech Republic, you see more competitions than ever before. That's so you see energy to engage foreign architects and also local architects to make more quality development. The competitions are better organized than five years ago, so that's one part. There's more prizes, more awards, which also help to establish that, to develop the role of architecture in a society that comes up. So there are and there's more energy as I said before between architects and architectural offices to do new things. They travel around. I mean, Czech Republic has the highest amount of 3D printing companies if I compare that to other countries in Europe. So hidden somewhere in your barns and in your boxes, you do incredible stuff. So there is a contradiction here. You're in a time of transition, and I hope I can emphasize a little bit like a kind of direction that is coming out of the box, by coming out become stronger. I think Europe needs it, the world needs it, and you facilitate that a little bit more and more. You say more, I mean Ostrava, Brno, and all say we are the new technological centers in the world. There are companies that become big in it, some from Taiwan, some from the Netherlands that are, ASML is working here. So there is more relationship in that than we compared it with ten years ago. So I try to paint a little bit the transition.

Well, I work in a lot of countries. It was always part of the game to talk with them, and sometimes it went quick and sometimes it takes longer. I mean, I've worked a long time in Africa with UNESCO to change basically the perception of monuments in Kenya and in Tanzania and in Yemen, to not only protect them but to embed them or to use them better. That was a beautiful project where the government, the minister of conservation Richard Leakey, was a fantastic person who was very active in trying to avoid that former monumental cities would transform into new Benidorm-like dorms along the coast in Zanzibar culture, or to open up all the treasures that are hidden under the sand, to give it a position in that society, or to make the national parks bigger even to protect elephants, and to transform the agricultural communities around Samburu land. It was a kind of fascinating relationship between investors and government that was very active in those days in Eastern Africa, and that continues. In the Netherlands, the relationship with the government is super strong over time. There is a national architect, there is a research group, there are planning bureaus which are independent and can criticize the government and have budgets around seven million per year to do research on it. So already by nature, try to work with them and they form teams. I believe in the public sector, it's one of the tools to do things that you cannot do in the commercial sector. So I'm not afraid of it, and I'm happy that there are beauty committees in the Netherlands that judge your architecture. But I also read what these committees are doing. I didn't found them because it exists already a long time, and it has transformed over time in a much more nuanced way. But basically there is a policy on cities what urbanism should be of the future in cities, and they make rules that have to be applied in the buildings from green to aesthetics also. And the rules of aesthetics are then saying something about how modern interpretations can be combined with old or with characterful elements of a specific city. And because they have its characters, this kind of beauty committee, a group of architects around 20, every project they say good, bad, or ugly, or somewhere in between. It helps basically to improve the quality of the architecture in general, what the city of the future should be.

No, it is quite Dutch, I agree. And also in Flanders, so in Belgium, it's now applied. The role of urbanism has become stronger. They organize it in a different way. France has also quite stronger rules in many cities. So it's not only heritage, it is driven by quality in the general term. Here you have the role of heritage is very important, but then the role of innovation is very limited. I have also a couple of personal questions. What are you talking about with the other star architects when you meet on a coffee, for example? What are you talking about? About architecture or about the kids or what you have done yesterday? What are you talking about with Bar or Rem Koolhaas when you meet with those guys?

Wow, that's a big question. But I mean, I love for that. Students inspire me. That can be like yesterday, a workshop showing the future of the hills within the city, and then we found a method how to show beauty, a new kind of beauty in it. You will see that maybe in an exhibition in two months. That was very inspirational, with the 40 students, and to come up with ideas very direct. It was inspirational because you have two hours with the students and they're very interactive, they may say yes, no, yes, no. So that was very inspirational. I love also the Rotterdam Film Festival, which is one of the best art films in the world, even I think some better than the Berlinale are coming together already from 40 years ago. And I love to go there and then all surprises that are coming out of that kind of, because filmmakers have the ability to do personal observations on the world and they can do storytelling that makes it nuanced and emotional. So there is a beauty that I hope that our architecture also somehow does. And this film festival makes it fantastic. And I love people basically. That inspires me, any conversation, any dinner.

No, but sometimes I have also a crossing the agenda, and then which means that I don't do it at that moment. Don't worry. But it's a no, I love it also because it's a... This world is so big and so beautiful with so many people, and my life is also short. So it's a kind of way of trying to... And my ambitions are maybe also a bit big, so I try to combine that in that way in this richness of people. Gatherings are providing not only inspiration but also depth. I love also Zoom with a client in Bratislava these days and to come to a conclusion. You see the working with people is one of the most fascinating components because then you can innovate. Then at a certain, 'Oh, I see your point.' That's so important. That moment 'I see your point.' I have clients that you have meeting only five minutes, they're very direct, and they also understand my advice. Like, I tell him or her, 'Don't do that, do that direction,' and show it. 'Well, fair, but can you work it out next time?' So that's five minutes. So this quickness is also something that tells something about our brains and our intelligence, as I hope.

I get that energy by them, by the fact that you are allowed to or to get the opportunity to talk about this or to make something I love. Also making gives me a lot of energy. I mean, at the moment that you see the first wooden structure coming up in a building, that's very addictive. That's a kind of 'Oh, okay, wow, it works or it's coming up.' So what I would like to say, the work itself is inspirational. And I hope that everybody can have that in his or her job.

Yeah, no, it's fine. But for the whole life of 40 years or I don't know how long are you in architecture? I think I'm now 40 years. 40 years, you have never been like tired? Well, I sleep very well. That's one element. But no, no, I hate that. And physically, I'm maybe I'm happy I can run, of course, three times a week, four times a week.

Well, yeah, it's indeed three days per week, I think. Yeah, really? Yeah, in Rotterdam. It goes up and now in terms of how much are you and then indeed the office, I could just go on my bike to the office and then because it's close and you go to your cafe in the neighborhood or you go to meet friends.

Yeah, but I was also looking forward to the life after Corona. So but there are other effects that I would like to point out. I think that as an office, we accepted more to have satellite offices. We easier to make other offices in other countries to do partly the work. So that was before Corona we were a bit hesitant on that because we know offices that were split because of having satellites. But we stepped over that because it simply replaces quite a lot of the traveling. And I'm also very happy with that effect of Corona. So I mean, even considering maybe also an office in Prague is easier to do in these ways, you know, with the formulas you know how to. So it's kind of makes us more nomadic because you global more global than before. I think that was one of the bigger effects of Corona. And what more? I was happy that I could write during Corona, that's true. And that's sometimes hard to find. But I do like still, okay, take two hours to make a text for a competition or for a pamphlet.

My God, I don't know. I honestly don't know. I think sometimes I learn from competitions that I think for instance that the prize winner was truly better. That is a very learning curve. And that's why you ask that question because it gives you more relativisation, it sharpens yourself and gives you also new insights.

My most negative one? Wow. Oh, I can be of course very demanding in a way, like expect people that they come up with professional answers in a very quick way. On one hand, that speed is part of our work and life. I cannot waste too much time. I always have a principal feeling that I think that everybody is smart. That's just in my blood because I come from a village and I was like, I think everybody is smart. So I expect also then smartness from everybody, which is maybe not true. But I want to see the positive part, so that drives me in that case.

Yeah, more and more actually. You get more experience somehow and to formulate. I always compare that with the word intuition. And you think intuition, what is that? Is that an emotion or is that something? Intuition for me is the highest amount of concentration and bringing all the parameters, all the complexities into one goal. So it's actually like a super software program that's covering the word intuition. And that is happening, and all the paradoxes somehow to quell that's happening in sometimes we train ourselves a little bit to even in short competitions more and more to see where are the vulnerabilities and how to come up with a kind of smart, direct answer that positions all the nuances that are surrounding architecture in a way so that speed and quality come together. This kind of moment X, this one second, a split second, but that's the word intuition where this comes together. That's the beauty of projects.

I hope because that's my best element is somehow to... I hope that I am respectful and empathetic to people. That I somehow am not like bossy or not like or not looking down on people. That can happen sometimes I think in star architects that they behave like prima donnas somehow. And there is a confusion in there because I think you have to be nice. Niceness I think brings more than elitism and gives more space for collaboration and for an egalitarian solution. That doesn't mean that you have to be again smart or distinctive and sometimes a bit decisive. So actually your combination of questions is beautiful because one, I try to be nice, listening and careful, and you have to guide, you have to come to a conclusion and to a decision, and you have to direct. At that moment, that's exactly when you are kind of a visionary and you want to lead or you want to direct someone. That could be that you could behave like rude or you could be like egoistic or something. So this very thin line, some people call it new leadership when you look to management books or to certain politicians talk about that also in that way. But yeah, that's the art of making decisions.

My personal situation is both. That's so. I love cities and I love landscapes. To be direct, I love to also live in the heart of the city and not in a kind of the fringe. So already of this Rotterdam or other places, that's the place because I live to want to. So that means a flat. But I am a nature lover and I am from a village in that way also. And you can make our designs for urban villages are a bit oriented towards that. So yes, I want to also be sometimes in a house in a forest. So I'm actually quite Czech? No, it's totally fine, it doesn't need to be one strict.

A good vegetarian one. Vegetarian food is the best. Do we have something like specific? Is it like the whole category? Well, no, vegetarian meal is not like replacement of a piece of meat by an egg. It is a refinement in that. Sometimes happen, there are some restaurants in Prague that have that, more in Copenhagen and in Amsterdam, that do complex kitchens that are respectful and have a rich answer to this necessity to behave more vegetarian in our world in order to get rid of the stupidity of making cattle that ruins our landscapes.

Oh, take time for that. You should not eat too quick. And good company is nice, so that saves you also from eating too fast because that's also not handy. And not eat too much, and try to avoid waste in making food or cooking or in restaurants. I prefer small dishes over this kind of giant mountains of burgers and mashed potatoes.

No, to be direct, I like this Kaveni because it has more taste. It has less sugar than the other one. It's more coffee anyway than the other one, as far as I can judge. Because the second one like Kaka verzi, it's called like cacao biscuit. Oh, that's why this is Kava? Kava is like coffee. Yeah, this is so sweet for me. The coffee is nicer even if I drink, I don't drink coffee. Yeah, I don't like the taste, but in this case it's subtly mixed in, it compensates a bit of sweetness. But it's far too sweet anyway. I hope my dentist would hate me if I would take this too much.

No, you too for the questions. I think this gives me also a reflection about things and the way how to talk and how the way how you position...