Lessons in Leadership: Katia Passerini and Rick Thigpen

Welcome to Lessons in Leadership. With the very talented Mary Gamba, our Co-Anchor and Executive Producer. Mary, how are we doing today?

I'm doing really good, Steve. How are you today?

Doing great. Before we introduce our good friend, Dr. Katia Passerini up at Seton Hall University, our longtime partners, introduce those who make the show possible.

Oh, I love that. I also feel like Vanna White when we get to this part of the show. So I would love to thank Prager Metis. Valley Bank. New Jersey Sharing Network. International Union of Operating Engineers, Local 825. Seton Hall University and the Buccino Leadership Institute. The North Ward Center. Kessler Foundation and Delta Dental of New Jersey.

Thank you, Mary. Dr. Katia Passerini, Provost and Executive Vice President, Office of the Provost. The great Seton Hall University. Go Pirates. Dr. Passerini, how are you doing today?

Great and go Pirates.

Yes. We should make it clear, we're taping this a little bit before the Big East tournament starts. We're not saying a word. We don't know how things are going to play out. It might be seen after. Real quick on this, Dr. Passerini, your development as a leader comes from where?

It's long. I would say it comes from where I was born in my home country, Italy. I was born and raised in Rome. And you need to develop as a leader to navigate the complexity of Italian bureaucracy. So I think that comes a lot from having grown up in Italy and also working there for a few years in management consulting with large corporations in Italy. And then I came here to the US to study and also work and both academically, as well as working in the World Bank and academic institutions, I think I learned different types of leadership. Working with different people at the World Bank and in academic institutions, working with peers. When you are in an academic institution you have a lot of colleagues. And so you have to lead by creating excitement around what you're doing.

So true. And our partnership with Seton Hall, with the University together with the Buccino Leadership Institute, Dr. Bryan Price with us, Dr. Joe Nyre, the President of Seton Hall University, joining us, actually check on our website. You'll see it up on the screen. You could see the interviews with everyone from the Seton Hall family. Let me ask you, developing future leaders at Seton Hall through the Buccino Leadership Institute and other things going on is a huge priority for the University because?

Because those will be our leaders of the future. They'll create our future. And so it's such a priority that we put our full commitment to the students. They start in year one, as you might know. They come, they have to be vetted very carefully, and then they start a four year journey in which they learn anything and everything, not only about leadership, but about themselves. And now they work with others and others as leaders and they focus a lot not only on learning content and theories, but really learning about their emotional intelligence. Discovering who they are and how they collaborate and how they can collaborate better. So they take an assessment at the very beginning of the program, and then they take the same assessment, it's called EQ, at the end of the program to see how much they learned. And they work with coaches and mentors to take classes and they really not only learn, but they also do.

The EQ that you mentioned, the emotional intelligence factor, Dr. Daniel Goleman, you'll see in our leadership library on our website. Dr. Goleman has talked about extensively and also let me disclose, Mary, that as we do this program, I believe very soon, I'm doing a masterclass at the Buccino Leadership Institute on Executive Presence and Presentation Skills, which we'll talk about just a minute, so I'm honored to be doing that masterclass at the Institute up at Seton Hall. Mary, pick it up from there.

Sure. And thank you so much for talking about emotional intelligence. I have a son who is a sophomore in college. Steve also has a college aged son as well. What have you found beyond emotional intelligence? These young adults that are going out into the workforce? What is the one leadership trait that is concrete that most employers are looking for that Seton Hall is trying to really instill in their students that they're sending out into the world?

Yeah, I think in addition to the EQ that we discussed, is two characteristics that are important. One, which is really at the heart of what this all does, is integrity. Leading with goodwill and a conscience and always be on top of your values. Not looking for shortcuts. Saying what you're going to do and actually do it and doing it according to your values. And your values could be the Catholic values or it could be any value system that you have learned to love and grow into, but that's really what really drives our students. The other aspect that I would bring in, and we talked about Goleman on emotional intelligence, there is also another theory, Edward de Bono, that talks about lateral thinking and multiple intelligences. Edward de Bono and his theory of lateral thinking. And then obviously Gardner talks about multiple intelligences. And the reason why it's important to bring those in is because we live in a world that is extremely complex. So I think one characteristic that our students and our future leaders need to have is the ability to deal with ambiguity. And if you remember sometime ago, right after the Cold War, we talked about an acronym called VUCA; volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And it came from the US Army College, but it really, what it meant is we really need to be able to make decisions quickly with the limited information that we have. And if we think about what happened with COVID, we were continuously making decisions with very limited information, not knowing the direction, and yet having to act quickly. And so that's what we need to instill in our students, is the ability to do this because who knows what challenges we have ahead of us.

It's such an interesting point you're raising. Dr. Nyre, the President of the University at Seton Hall brought this up- Mary, do you remember we had Dr. Nyre on very early on in the pandemic. And as the President was talking about this and I'm listening to the Provost, here's what's tricky about this. A lot of people think that leaders have to be decisive, clear, unambiguous. That's exactly what we're doing. But that's easier said than done when you don't, not only don't have the information you need to be so definitive, but what you believe to be the case is evolving and pivoting, and there are more variables than anyone ever imagined. There's a question here I promise. How can we be both definitive, but also flexible at the same time? Doctor?

Yeah, you have to be able to recognize when you're making a mistake. So open to changing what your thinking was even if it was an hour ago. You continuously get new information and you need to rethink, what did I miss? The lateral thinking is, can I look at this problem in a different way, even if I have some data in front of me, but can I reframe the problem in maybe with a different focus? And that's important. And it might sometimes mean that you're going to contradict what you said earlier. But that's really a leadership skill as well. Being able to when you make a mistake.

Which is why we talk about the book, Extreme Ownership, all the time. Mary, how about this? Someone says, but you said, Steve, you said- I know, but that was before I knew- I'm sorry. Mary, you get the last question for Dr. Passerini.

Sometimes it's called the liability of knowledge, right? You know too much and you're not able to change your viewpoint.

Well said. Bravo. Go ahead.

I like to say ignorance is bliss.

Eh. Eh.

Sometimes, sometimes it is. Oh, and Dr. Passerini, one follow-up question. You talked a lot about the pandemic and what is one thing that maybe happened as a result of the pandemic that you say, you want to know what? It really taught us to teach it a different way, to lead in a different way, whether it's hybrid education. Talk a little bit about that. What is one lesson you really took away from the pandemic and you're applying it to future strategies at Seton Hall.

Many lessons, probably one great lesson was that we were ready to teach online. We didn't know, but we had already built systems that could bring us online. And that's why so many universities, they were able to turn on the switch and move online in less than a week or a couple of weeks. But we also learned that while we can do it, we shouldn't be doing it all the time. Our students are telling us that they want to be back in-person. They want to continue to have this experience of the classroom, being together, working together. So while technology becomes the flexible tool that can really create a lot of efficiencies in delivering lectures or even you don't have to come to school anymore to pay your bill or to complete a piece of paperwork, we can do all of that remotely, but the learning experience is really a socialized experience that happens in the classroom. So we have to use technology to our advantage and be able to do that by being flexible, but also being together.

So well said. And I mentioned before that I'm doing this masterclass in Executive Presence, Presentation, Communication Skills at the Buccino Leadership Institute. I am thrilled Mary, last year we did it remotely. This spring, I will be on campus and there's nothing like it. Yes this is more efficient. Yes you can wear sweats sometimes or you can be comfortable, whatever. There's nothing like being in that same classroom. Dr. Passerini, I cannot thank you and the family, the team, go Pirates, at Seton Hall University. Thank you, Doctor.

Great seeing you both.

I'm Steve. That's Mary. That's Dr. Katia Passerini from the Seton Hall University. We'll be right back after this. This edition of Lessons in Leadership is made possible by the Buccino Leadership Institute at Seton Hall University. Prager Metis. Valley Bank. The International Union of Operating Engineers, Local 825. The North Ward Center. The New Jersey Sharing Network. Delta Dental of New Jersey. Kessler Foundation. Veolia. And Seton Hall University. Showing the world what great minds can do since 1856.

This is Mary Gamba. If you want more leadership tips and tools, log on to Stand-Deliver.com. That's Stand-Deliver.com.

Promotional support for this edition of Lessons in Leadership with me, Steve Adubato, and my colleague, Mary Gamba, has been provided by NJ.com. NJ BIA. And New Jersey Business Magazine. CIANJ. And Commerce Magazine.

Construction companies work at the heart of our communities. So do the Operating Engineers of Local 825, who build our roads and bridges, and ensure the safe transmission of energy that keeps us on the move. Local 825 works with contractors as partners in quality, safety, and training. Our achievements stand as monuments to collaboration that will last for generations. This message has been brought to you by the members of Operating Engineers Local 825. Better building begins here.

Most people don't think about where their water comes from, but we do. Veolia, more than water. Resourcing the world.

Welcome back to Lessons in Leadership. Steve Adubato. The very talented Mary Gamba. By the way, Mary, we were joking before. I actually love what you have on today and I hope you like this very monochromatic boring look on my end.

I do. I wish- and that's one of the things, you know, we can change in the future, but if women could just wear a suit and change the tie and make life a lot easier. A lot easier.

And, okay. Sometimes when I say I have sweats on or shorts, you say, leave it. Don't tell anybody.

No. We can move on.

I'm not going there. By the way, thank you to Seton Hall University, to the Buccino Leadership Institute, to Dr. Katia Passerini, who is the Provost and Executive Vice President, Office of the Provost. Thank you so much.

Mary, we're about to go into this interview with our good friend, Rick Thigpen, who's Senior Vice President for Corporate Citizenship, PSEG. He's going to talk to us about this gentleman, who I dedicated an entire chapter of my new book to. The one, the only, extraordinary leader, General, former Secretary of State, former Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Colin Powell. What- I mean again, Rick says it all in this interview, but what struck you about it?

Yeah, just talking about, we talk about it a lot on the show and anybody that's tuned in regularly, Extreme Ownership. General Colin Powell was just that. He owned his mistakes outward, publicly. He wasn't doing it, in my opinion, again, you never know what goes on behind the scenes. He was doing it because that was part of who he was in his leadership DNA. And that's something to really respect about someone.

You know what's so interesting about that? And Rick and I talk about this in the interview, because General Powell testified before the United Nations in the lead up to the war against Iraq, after, you know, 9/11. That there were so-called weapons of mass destruction. This isn't about politics or anything else, but it was the justification for war against Iraq. It was incorrect. That the intelligence was incorrect. There were so many people involved in that decision. And Mary, I know I keep, I'm not even going to put up the Extreme Ownership book again. So many people involved in the intelligence community and the military community and the White House, he took it. Colin Powell took it on. Talk about extreme ownership. And I think sometimes, why is it so difficult? I know that I'm a broken record about this. Why is it so difficult for so many of us in leadership positions to just say, that's on me? That's what General Powell said.

Yeah, it's so hard because people want to be strong. The second you say you made a mistake, it shows weakness. It shows maybe I'm not as good as what I thought I was. But if you flip that switch and you see it as a sign of strength, a sign of, you want to know what I did make a mistake. It actually takes a weight off your shoulders once you accept that responsibility and he did in such a public forum, it just took so much strength and courage to do that.

And look, lives were lost. It was tragic. It was terrible. But some people will say, so therefore General Powell is not a great leader because he made that mistake. Listen, I'm not minimizing it in any way, because there was a tremendous loss of life in war. That's what happens. But to say this is on me and not to throw anyone else under the bus, a lot of us don't make mistakes like that because we're not in positions to make mistakes where life and death is on the line. So it's easy to be a so-called- it is literally Monday afternoon as we're taping, Monday afternoon quarterback after the Super Bowl. Rick Thigpen, who's been an extraordinary leader for us and a historian. Who's so great about, he's fascinated with history and he's our official historian here talking about great leaders. In this case, he's talking about one of the greatest leaders in the 20th and 21st century, right, Mary? Did I get that, right?

Yeah. 21st.

General Colin Powell. Another segment we're having, a compelling, important segment with Rick Thigpen, who is Senior Vice President of Corporate Citizenship at PSEG. We're not talking energy in this particular edition, but Rick has been with us many times talking about historical figures, leadership, and this initiative called Powering Equity and Social Justice. We feature General Colin Powell. I'm a huge fan of his. Read so much of his work. I use him in my leadership seminars. Why does he embody General Powell's life and success, powering equity and social justice, Rick?

Let me follow up on this. By the way, check out General Powell's history as it relates to his commitment to urban education, particularly in the Bronx, and the raising of money, the role model he's been to so many.

What's it called again?

Yeah. But there's another piece, Rick, and I just want to touch on this. As a student of leadership, as a teacher of leadership, I've been moved by General Powell and I've learned so much from him. When he gave testimony before the United Nations and mistakenly said that there were "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq," which was the premise for us going into war. And later on said it was the greatest regret of his life. What did it say, Rick, about General Powell? And yes, there was, there was devastation. There was death. The war may have been unnecessary depending on how you look at it. But he said it was my mistake. I was wrong. I should have questioned more. I should not have said that. What does that say about General Powell's integrity?

So for those who are just critical and say he made a mistake, he made a terrible mistake, a deadly mistake, leadership is not about making the right decision in every situation. It's having the information you have at hand, making the best decision possible, and when you make a mistake, dare I say own it. That's the exception, that's not the rule, Rick.

Could Colin Powell have been President of the United States?

By his record-

Final question, Rick. We'll do General Schwarzkopf, from New Jersey. I believe from Trenton, New Jersey.

Yeah, his dad, a very important figure in the state police. Real quick on this, final question on General Powell: What did General Powell's life and legacy mean to all younger people, but disproportionately young people of color from urban areas? What did it mean to them in terms of what was potentially possible in this nation?

And by the way-

Sorry for interrupting, Rick. And for those of you who are wondering, Hey, why do we have Rick Thigpen doing this? Rick and I started an offline conversation a couple of years ago. Rick is an historian. He's a student of history on every level. We actually started with a series that we did, a half-hour special on the history of Drumthwacket. Drumthwacket, look it up. If those of you don't know what it is. And look at our website, SteveAdubato.org Look at the Drumthwacket special we did. The people's house, if you will. It's an important home in New Jersey. Governor Murphy is, and first lady, Tammy Murphy, just the last in a long line, the most recent in a long line of Governors and their first ladies and first husband in the case of Christy Whitman, who have spent time there. That is the people's house. Rick understood that more than most and he encouraged us to do a documentary. And we did. I can't thank you enough for telling us just a little bit about General Powell and we're talking military history. Rick, thank you so much.

So that's our good friend, Rick Thigpen, talking about the late great extraordinary leader General Colin Powell. Thank you, Rick. Hey Mary, I want to shift gears dramatically. This new book that we're working on, it's not even a working title. I think it's the official title now. That should be out in a few months. It's called Lessons in Leadership 2.0: The Tough Stuff. What do we mean by the tough stuff?

It's all of those things when we started talking about, okay, it's definitely time to start writing a new book. There are so many other leadership challenges, whether it's the art of the Q and A, whether it's dealing with confrontation, and also just communicating in a remote environment and pivoting when COVID happened instead of burying your head in the sand, all of these are tough situations and how we deal with them will definitely really just show the world who we are as leaders.

And one of the other chapters, Mary did a great job in setting up for today. We have a running list of the chapters that are already completed. Artful Confrontation, Strategic Micromanaging. How about this one, Mary. Feedback is a Funny Thing. What's the synopsis of that chapter? It's not funny ha ha is it?

No, it's not funny ha ha. It's just funny because it's so hard to give feedback that people want to hear, that they're not going to take offense to. So that's why it's a funny thing. You need to walk very gingerly and carefully when you're giving, and also when you're receiving feedback.

There's another chapter on Remote Communication, because so many people, Elvin, our director- Elvin put yourself up real quick. I want to prove a point. So as Elvin comes up on the screen, as he's directing the show, we should do a chapter on leaders as multitaskers. Elvin real quick, what is the thing you have to tell most guests when they come on the show, both on this show and on our public television series produced by the Caucus Educational Corporation. What do you have to tell them when they come on when they're looking all over the place?

I ask them to look directly into the center of their camera. Try not to look at Steve and try not to look at Mary.

Why is it so hard?

Because if I look down, you can tell I'm not looking directly at the audience, so you don't know if I'm talking to the audience. But if I'm making that eye contact, I'm basically talking to the viewers and not just talking to a screen or off to the side. I'm connecting with the audience by looking straight into the camera.

Yeah. But Mary, we're more than two years into this pandemic, why is it that we're still telling people- Elvin, by the way, Elvin is down here on the screen. Mary is over there. I'm over here. But the camera's here. Mary, it is hard for people to focus here, right?

It is so unnatural. And Steve, you have a knack for it because you're used to doing it in the studio where you just look at a camera and you're literally talking to nobody. So for the layperson that hasn't used this technology, your temptation is to look down at the screen and to look at Steve and to look at Elvin. But you need to find that camera on your device, look at it, and then you're making eye contact.

Hey Elvin, do us a favor? Don't sign off. Could you say goodbye to everyone on behalf of the Lessons in Leadership team? You do the throw. Go ahead.

Thank you for watching Lessons in- See, you caught me off guard.

Nah, nah, nah. Keep it in. Keep it in. Go ahead.

Sylvester will edit that out.

No, no, he's not.

Yes he will. Yes he will. Thank you for watching Lessons in Leadership with Mary and Steve. You see how I did that? Mary and Steve not Steve and Mary.

I love that.

Who's calling you?

That's the timer. We're out of time. Time to go.

Leave all that in. That's Elvin. That's Mary. This is Steve. And Elvin's got a call. See you next time.

This edition of Lessons in Leadership is made possible by the Buccino Leadership Institute at Seton Hall University. Prager Metis. Valley Bank. The International Union of Operating Engineers, Local 825. The North Ward Center. The New Jersey Sharing Network. Delta Dental of New Jersey. Kessler Foundation. Veolia. And Seton Hall University. Showing the world what great minds can do since 1856.

This is Mary Gamba. If you want more leadership tips and tools, log on to Stand-Deliver.com. That's Stand-Deliver.com.

Promotional support for this edition of Lessons in Leadership with me, Steve Adubato, and my colleague, Mary Gamba, has been provided by NJ.com. NJ BIA. And New Jersey Business Magazine. CIANJ. And Commerce Magazine.

Construction companies work at the heart of our communities. So do the Operating Engineers of Local 825, who build our roads and bridges, and ensure the safe transmission of energy that keeps us on the move. Local 825 works with contractors as partners in quality, safety, and training. Our achievements stand as monuments to collaboration that will last for generations. This message has been brought to you by the members of Operating Engineers Local 825. Better building begins here.