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Charlie Scharf
CEO, Wells Fargo

Wells Fargo Q2 2026 Earnings Call | NII Expansion and Fee Growth Lift Adjusted EPS to $1.96

🎥 Jul 14, 2026 📺 i101 ⏱ 78m 👁 20 views
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About Charlie Scharf

Charlie Scharf, CEO of Wells Fargo, said in a July 2026 interview with Bloomberg that he is "big time bullish on the US" and described the current period as "really good for banks." He stated that since the Federal Reserve lifted the bank's $2 trillion asset cap in 2025, Wells Fargo has been able to compete on a level playing field and is growing its consumer, commercial, wealth, and investment banking businesses. Scharf noted that the company is focused on "sustainable growth" and that its goal is to become "the best performing financial institution in this country" and "the most respected bank." Discussing the economy, Scharf said that while consumers and small businesses express nervousness about inflation, geopolitical events, and AI, their actual behavior shows strength: consumers are spending more year-over-year, delinquencies are down, and savings are up. He attributed this resilience to strong employment and wage growth. On the topic of the Federal Reserve transition, Scharf commented that incoming Chair Kevin Warsh is "incredibly bright" and that a "fresh look" at policies regarding the balance sheet and interest rates would be a positive development.

Source: AI-verified profile updated from Charlie Scharf's recent appearances. Browse all interviews →

Transcript (94 segments)
O
Operator0:00
Welcome and thank you for joining the Wells Fargo second quarter 2026 earnings conference call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speaker's remarks, there will be a question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question during this time, simply press star one. If you would like to withdraw your question, press star two. Please note that today's call is being recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to John Campbell, director of investor relations. Sir, you may begin the conference.
J
John Campbell0:36
Good morning everyone. Thanks for joining our call today where our CEO Charlie Scharf and our CFO Mike Santomassimo will discuss second quarter results and answer your questions. This call is being recorded. Before we get started, I would like to remind you that our second quarter earnings materials, including the release, financial supplement, and presentation deck, are available on our website at wellsfargo.com. I'd also like to caution you that we may make forward-looking statements during today's call that are subject to risks and uncertainties. Factors that may cause actual results to differ materially from expectations are detailed in our SEC filings, including the Form 8-K filed today containing our earnings materials. Information about any non-GAAP financial measures referenced, including a reconciliation of those measures to GAAP measures, can also be found in our SEC filings and the earnings materials available on our website. I will now turn the call over to Charlie.
C
Charlie Scharf1:37
Thanks, John. I'm going to provide some comments about our results and the momentum we are seeing across our businesses. I'll then turn the call over to Mike to review second quarter results in more detail before we take your questions. Let me start with slide two of the presentation deck where I will walk you through the broad-based strength we see in our business. We grew diluted earnings per share to $2 in the second quarter, up 25% from a year ago. Revenue grew 9% from a year ago. Growth was broad-based with every one of our operating segments generating higher net interest income and non-interest income. We are clearly benefiting from the economic strength we see in the US. But the investments we are making and our improved operating discipline drove strong momentum and continued to result in improved performance. Net interest income grew 5% from a year ago and non-interest income grew 13% as we're making good progress against our goal to create a more balanced revenue mix by growing fee-based revenues. Expenses increased 2% from a year ago reflecting investments we are making offset by continued expense discipline. Expenses excluding revenue-related compensation declined. One of the ways you can clearly see the results of our efficiency initiatives is through headcount, which has declined for 24 consecutive quarters. And in the second quarter, our headcount was 197,000, down 79,000 from six years ago, 15,000 from last year, and 3,500 from last quarter. We are using these efficiencies to offset broad-based investments across the company to drive growth, including adding branch bankers, investment advisors, commercial banking relationship managers, investment bankers, and traders. We are also increasing our marketing investments, accelerating product development, investing in AI, and increasing our cyber defenses. Consumer and commercial credit quality remained strong across all portfolios and net loan charge-offs declined 10 basis points from a year ago. After years of not being on a level playing field with our competitors because we couldn't grow our balance sheet, we had strong growth during the first half of this year, including in the second quarter with average loans up 12% and average deposits up 10% from a year ago. Just a reminder, growth can be risky and we are carefully deploying capital to grow and support our clients by taking risks that we think are prudent through economic cycles, not just the strong environment we see today. We returned over $9.8 billion of capital to shareholders in the first half of this year, including repurchasing $7 billion of common stock while continuing to maintain a significant amount of excess capital. As we previously announced, we expect to increase our third quarter common stock dividend by 11% to 50 cents per share, subject to approval by our board of directors at its meeting later this month. Our continued focus on improving returns was evident with ROCE increasing from 15.2% a year ago to 17.7% in the second quarter and 16.1% in the first half of 2026. While outsized venture capital equity gains favorably affected our returns this quarter, we have said that they can be lumpy, but that we do expect strong returns from these investments over time. But more importantly, the growth and efficiency improvements that we have seen over the past several years are now broader-based. And it is these trends that give us confidence in reaching our goal of a sustainable ROCE of 17 to 18%. We are often asked about the timing of achieving this goal and I know you all understand that interest rates, markets, and credit impact us and are hard to predict, making it difficult to give a definitive answer. But assuming favorable conditions continue to exist, we remain confident that our favorable trends will allow us to achieve this goal in a reasonable time frame and then reset the bar higher for the future.
As we show on slide three, our strategy is driving growth across all of our businesses. Let me start with consumer banking and lending with 6% revenue growth from a year ago. After years of little to no growth in checking accounts, our investments in marketing and digital account openings are paying off and we have grown consumer primary checking accounts year-over-year for 13 consecutive quarters. We have significant opportunity to increase the pace of growth and this along with offering our broad set of products including credit cards, investments and mortgages should drive low-cost deposits higher over time. Over the past five years, we have enhanced our credit card products and improved the customer experience, which has driven new account and balance growth, including new accounts increasing 46% in the second quarter from a year ago. Building a larger credit card business is an investment that puts pressure on profitability in the initial years with new products having significant upfront costs related to marketing, promotional rates, onboarding, and allowance. It takes approximately 2 to 3 years for vintages to season and earn through these upfront costs. Our 2022 through 2024 vintages are now adding to profitability. Our 2025 and 2026 vintages are bigger as account openings have accelerated, so they offset some of the positive contribution from the earlier vintages. Importantly, we have seen strong performance versus our original assumptions regarding new account acquisition and credit performance, which gives us confidence that we should see profitability and returns increase. I do want to note that the rate of growth is a decision point for us. We could have higher profitability in the shorter term by reducing our growth, but we are prioritizing longer-term results given the quality of the accounts we are generating. We evaluate this each quarter and will continue to do so.
The momentum in our digital offerings continued with mobile active users increasing to 33.7 million in the second quarter. That's 1.6 million more than a year ago. The investments we've been making to improve the customer experience were reflected in the 2026 J.D. Power mobile app study where we moved up to number two in mobile app satisfaction. We are also doing more for our affluent clients. We've been hiring licensed bankers and branch-based financial advisers and that investment is helping to drive better results with premier client assets up 13% from a year ago. Our auto business returned to growth last year after intentionally scaling back to improve our capabilities and the momentum has continued. Originations increased 41% from a year ago and average balances were up 31%. In part due to becoming the preferred financing provider for Volkswagen and Audi vehicles in the US. Importantly, credit performance has remained strong and in line with our expectations. Turning to wealth and investment management, revenue grew 13% from a year ago. Wealth and investment management client assets grew 15% from a year ago to over $2.4 trillion driven by increased market valuations and also benefiting from four consecutive quarters of positive net flows. We have invested over a billion dollars over the past several years to modernize the technology platform. And in the second quarter, we launched Advisor Gateway, a new desktop technology with Gen AI capabilities that gives advisers better tools to serve clients and grow their practices. Investments like this are improving productivity, strengthening the client experience, and driving improved advisor hiring and retention.
We are also working to be our client's primary bank by expanding our deposit and lending capabilities and are seeing strong results with average deposits up 10% and average loans up 12% from a year ago. Securities-based lending has been a key driver of loan growth with average balances up 31% from a year ago reflecting our success in increasing the number of financial advisers offering this product to their clients. Importantly, the opportunity in this business to grow investments and banking remains significant. We estimate that our existing customers hold trillions in assets at other financial institutions and their lending, deposit, and payment needs are large and growing. Turning to our commercial businesses, starting with the corporate investment bank, revenue grew 16% from a year ago. In our markets business, revenue grew 24% from a year ago. We've been growing our balance sheet to support our clients with average trading-related assets increasing 41% from a year ago driven primarily by financing-related activity. While this financing activity impacts our net interest margin because it is lower spread, it has good returns and profitability and positions us to attract more flow business. We track this by client and we're seeing higher trading revenue and wallet share gains from customers where we are providing financing. While the most immediate revenue benefits are expected within markets, including trading, hedging, and risk management products, these deeper client relationships also enhance opportunities across the broader corporate investment banking platform. Over time, in our banking business, revenue grew 20% as our focus on providing a broader set of capital and advisory solutions is working. This was a record quarter for investment banking fees across the firm. Our willingness to invest more in senior talent and in technology and dedicate more balance sheet to these activities is paying off. What's important here is having a growth plan that is properly paced and leverages the broader strengths of Wells Fargo. The team has executed with discipline, has hired and promoted the right people, and is taking risks that are in line with our risk tolerance.
The favorable environment for M&A and financing is helping drive higher revenues across the industry. But our investments are also delivering strong results and we are increasing market share in key areas. In leverage finance, our year-to-date market share is 7.2% and we ranked number three. In equity capital markets, our share has increased 74 basis points from a year ago to 3.8%. In M&A, we have climbed from number nine to number four among US advisers by announced deal volume, reflecting our active role in advising our clients on franchise-defining transactions. We also have strong share in capital markets, including being the number one non-agency CMBS bookrunner, number one in real estate loan syndications, and number one in CRA CLOs. This was a strong quarter across corporate investment banking and we still have significant opportunity to grow each of the businesses.
Finally, let me highlight commercial banking which generated 6% revenue growth from a year ago. The investments we've been making in the business over the past couple of years are driving strong results. Absent the transfers of loans and deposits to consumer banking and lending last year, average loans grew 9% and average deposits grew 10% from a year ago. Our investments include targeted hiring in 20 high-density markets where we are underpenetrated relative to the rest of the country. The plan is working as we are seeing incremental client growth and higher loan and deposit balances and we expect this momentum to continue as we execute on our plan. We've also focused on delivering investment banking and market products to our commercial banking clients. We've had success which has helped drive revenue growth, but we still see significant opportunities to grow revenue here. While commercial banking is one of our more mature businesses, we still have significant opportunities to grow. Our treasury management and payments revenues are embedded in our commercial bank and corporate investment bank results across both segments. Revenue was up 5% from a year ago. We've been investing in coverage teams and payment platforms and are beginning to innovate using blockchain technology to create better payment solutions for our commercial customers. These solutions will use blockchain-based payment rails to make cross-border payments faster, more transparent, and more predictable. And over time, they will extend operating hours to 24 hours, seven days a week.
As we look ahead, consumers and businesses remain strong. Consumer spending is higher, charge-offs are lower, and savings and investments are growing across customer segments. Businesses are cautious, but balance sheets and cash flows remain strong, resulting in strong credit performance. Equity indices are at or near all-time highs, and credit spreads are narrow. Concerns around affordability and inflation exist, but the labor market and wage growth remain strong. The markets and US economy have absorbed macroeconomic and geopolitical uncertainty. Well, strong environments like this don't last forever, and we see large amounts of capital being deployed by both banks and non-banks across a broad range of risk assets. Often when times like this continue, leverage and risks develop that are sometimes hard to see. We are proud of the progress we have made and remain excited about our competitive position and ability to execute and drive towards our goal of industry leadership in the US. We will watch carefully for signs of outsized risks and stress and continue to deploy our resources carefully and deliberately to serve our clients and build sustainable high returns and higher growth that can endure the inevitable market shocks and economic cycles. In closing, we and most financial institutions are benefiting from today's environment. However, we're also seeing the benefits in our results from the actions we have taken which should endure through cycles. As I said, our metrics clearly show our momentum across all business segments and we will continue to remain focused on driving towards higher sustainable returns. I will now turn the call over to Mike.
M
Mike Santomassimo16:59
Thank you, Charlie. Good morning, everyone. Since Charlie covered the drivers of our improved financial results and the momentum we are seeing across our businesses that we highlight on the first two slides, I will start my comments on slide four. Our second quarter results were strong with broad-based revenue growth, disciplined expense management, and improved credit performance. Our earnings increased 17% from a year ago to $6.4 billion, and our diluted earnings per share grew to $2, up 25% from a year ago. Our second quarter results included $132 million or $0.04 per share of discrete tax benefits related to the resolution of prior period matters. Turning to slide six, net interest income increased $69 million or 5% from a year ago and increased 2% from the first quarter. The growth from the first quarter was driven by higher loan and investment securities balances as well as one additional day in the quarter. As expected, the net interest margin declined 4 basis points from the first quarter, down from the 13 basis points decline we had last quarter. The biggest driver of this decline in NIM in the second quarter and over the past year has been growth in interest-bearing deposits as well as continued growth in our markets business. The success we are having growing interest-bearing deposits deepens our relationships with clients in the commercial bank and the corporate investment bank and gives us the opportunity to attract non-interest-bearing deposits in the future. And as Charlie mentioned, while financing balances in the markets business are lower spread, they have good returns and profitability and position us to grow other activities of those clients. We see it in our results including total revenue in the markets business growing 24% from a year ago as well as returns starting to increase along with our market share. I would also note that even with the NII compression, we grew net interest income versus last year and last quarter. While we'll talk more about our expectations for net interest income later on the call, we expect modest net interest margin compression in the third quarter, broadly in line with the second quarter's decline from the first quarter before stabilizing in the fourth quarter.
Moving to slide seven, average loans increased $110 billion or 12% from a year ago driven by growth in commercial and industrial loans as well as growth across our consumer portfolios except for residential mortgage loans. Turning to deposits, average deposits increased $134 billion or 10% from a year ago with growth across our consumer and commercial businesses as well as higher corporate deposits. Average deposits declined 1 basis point from a year ago and were up 8 basis points from the first quarter driven by growth in interest-bearing deposits. Turning to slide eight, we had broad-based growth in non-interest income up $1.2 billion or 13% from a year ago. We generated over $10 billion in non-interest income in the quarter with growth across most categories. We had strong performance from our venture capital investments with $847 million in both unrealized and realized net equity gains, or $604 million after non-controlling interest. It's important to look at these results after the impact of non-controlling interest. We also had double-digit growth in investment advisory fees, brokerage commissions, and investment banking fees from a year ago. We had over $900 million in investment banking fees in the second quarter, a new record.
Turning to expenses on slide nine, non-interest expense increased $282 million or 2% from a year ago and our efficiency ratio improved to 60%, down 4 percentage points from a year ago. The increase in expenses from a year ago was driven by higher revenue-related and incentive compensation expense which I like to remind you is a good thing as these higher expenses are more than offset by higher revenue. We also have higher technology and advertising costs driven by the investments we are making in our businesses to generate growth. These higher expenses were partially offset by the impact of efficiency initiatives including a 7% reduction in headcount from a year ago. We are pleased to see the continued execution of our efficiency initiatives quarter after quarter. This is the 24th consecutive quarter of headcount reductions and along with other meaningful efficiency initiatives, we have been able to continue to invest in our businesses while managing overall expense levels. In fact, as Charlie highlighted, non-revenue-related expenses were actually down from a year ago.
Turning to credit quality on slide 10, our credit performance in the second quarter remained strong with our net loan charge-off ratio down 10 basis points from a year ago to 34 basis points of average loans. Commercial credit continued to be strong with net loan charge-offs declined to 10 basis points. Consumer performance was also strong with loan charge-offs declining to 74 basis points with improvements across the portfolio from the first quarter and continued net recoveries in the residential mortgage portfolio. Non-performing assets as a percentage of total loans declined from the first quarter and from a year ago with improvements in both the commercial and consumer portfolios. Our allowance coverage ratio for loans was relatively stable from the first quarter. Credit card and auto loan growth drove a modest increase in our allowance which was largely offset by a lower allowance for commercial real estate office loans.
Turning to capital and liquidity on slide 11, our capital levels remain strong with our CET1 ratio at 10.3%, within our stated 10% to 10.5% target range and well above our CET1 regulatory minimum plus buffers at 8.5%. While the Federal Reserve stress test results do not impact capital requirements this year, our results continue to be below the stress capital buffer floor of 2.5%. We repurchased $3 billion of common stock in the second quarter and common shares outstanding declined 6% from a year ago. We continue to have capacity to repurchase shares while also supporting our clients.
Moving to our operating segments, starting with consumer banking and lending on slide 12. Consumer, small, and business banking revenue increased 8% from a year ago, driven by higher deposit and loan balances, wider deposit spreads, and growth in non-interest income. Credit card revenue grew 2% from a year ago due to higher loan balances. Home lending revenue declined 7% from a year ago, reflecting lower loan balances. However, the rate of reduction has continued to slow with balances relatively stable from the first quarter. Lower revenue also reflected the continued reduction in the size of our servicing business with third-party mortgage loans serviced for others down 21% from a year ago. Auto revenue increased 33% from a year ago due to higher loan balances. Auto originations increased 41% year-over-year but were stable from the first quarter.
Turning to commercial banking results on slide 13. Revenue increased 6% from a year ago driven by non-interest income growth from equity investments, revenue from the financing we do for renewable energy projects that come in the form of tax credits and investment banking, as well as growth in net interest income from higher loan and interest-bearing deposit balances. Loan growth was broad-based with increased demand from both new and existing customers. Turning to corporate investment banking on slide 14. Banking revenue increased 20% from a year ago with growth in investment banking fees in equity and debt capital markets as well as higher loan and interest-bearing deposit balances. Commercial real estate revenue declined 1% from a year ago as higher capital markets activity and loan balances were more than offset by the impact of lower interest rates. Markets revenue grew 24% from a year ago, driven by stronger performance in equities and higher revenue across most fixed income products, including the impact of balance sheet growth. As you know, we've been growing our balance sheet in the markets business. It has increased $198 billion since the end of 2024 with approximately 60% in financing balances, 20% on the trading side, and 20% for the lending we do in this business. We extend these balances to clients who can also bring us additional business and our early tracking shows that is what is occurring. We track this on a granular basis and will continue to optimize with clients to drive growth and returns. Average loans in corporate investment banking grew 26% from a year ago with growth across all businesses while utilization rates were relatively stable. On slide 15, wealth and investment management revenue increased 13% from a year ago, driven by growth in investment advisory fees from increased market valuations as well as higher net interest income due to lower deposit pricing and higher deposit and loan balances. As a reminder, the majority of WIM advisory assets are priced at the beginning of the quarter, so third quarter results will reflect market valuations as of July 1st, which were up from April 1st and from a year ago.
Turning to our 2026 outlook on slide 17, we are maintaining our guidance of $50 billion plus or minus of net interest income for the full year. And similar to last year, we expect stronger growth in the second half of the year compared to the first half. We still expect net interest income excluding markets to be approximately $48 billion for the full year. Looking at the key drivers, starting with loans, as I highlighted, average loans in the second quarter grew 12% from a year ago. So year-over-year average loan growth in the fourth quarter will likely be higher than the mid-single-digit increase we assumed in our outlook back in January. This is a positive versus our original expectation. We have also successfully grown interest-bearing deposits which is a good thing since these higher balances help us deepen relationships with our customers and as I mentioned earlier gives us the opportunity to attract non-interest-bearing deposits in the future. We had originally assumed some growth in non-interest-bearing deposits but we now expect them to be relatively stable which is a negative versus our original expectation. Interest rates are currently not a significant factor in our outlook for this year. While interest rates have been higher than we expected in our original outlook, which benefits NII excluding markets, the rate cuts we had originally assumed were expected later in the year, so the change is only a modest impact on this year's net interest income expectations. In terms of markets NII, as we all know, it's always hard to forecast. Higher short-term rates typically result in lower markets NII, but as of now, we still expect markets NII to be approximately $2 billion in 2026. So, putting this all together, while the drivers have moved around since our original outlook, which is always the case, our current outlook is still $50 billion plus or minus of NII for 2026. Regarding our expense outlook, we still expect 2026 non-interest expense to be approximately $55.7 billion. Expenses in the first half of the year were in line with our expectations. As we look at the second half of the year, we expect revenue-related expenses to be somewhat higher than we expected at the beginning of the year, but we expect expenses in other areas to be lower through our continued focus on efficiency initiatives. In summary, we had strong second quarter results and they clearly demonstrate that the strategy we have been implementing to drive growth is working. Revenue growth was broad-based with every one of our operating segments generating higher net interest income and non-interest income from a year ago. Our continued focus on improving efficiency drove positive operating leverage. The asset cap came off last year and we had double-digit growth in both average loans and deposits from a year ago. Credit quality was strong with improved performance in both our commercial and consumer portfolios. We continue to return significant capital to shareholders while maintaining our strong capital position. As Charlie highlighted, we are seeing strong momentum in key business drivers in every one of our businesses and the steady improvements in our returns continue to give us confidence in achieving our medium-term 17% to 18% return on tangible common equity target. We will now take your questions.
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Operator29:13
At this time, we will now begin the question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please first unmute your phone and then press star one. Please record your name at the prompt. If you would like to withdraw your question, you may press star two to remove yourself from the question queue. Once again, please press star one and record your name. If you would like to ask a question at this time, please stand by for our first question.
The first question comes from Ken of Autonomous Research. Your line is open.
K
Ken29:51
Good morning. And Mike, thanks for the color on the second half expected NII trends. The two questions I have. One is just to get to $50 billion, I think we need to assume that the average earning assets continue to grow at around this 3% pace and given your comments about loan growth and the deposit growth, is that kind of what we need to look for to get there? Any other things we need to think about in terms of mix within? Thanks.
M
Mike Santomassimo30:17
Yeah, sure. When you look at what's going to progress for the second half of the year, it's very similar to what we saw last year in terms of the step up as we went through each of the quarters. You do benefit from an extra day as you go into the third quarter, so you have to account for that. But we expect to see some growth in loans and securities. You get the benefit of the fixed asset turnover given where rates are. So I think it's all progressing. So it's not a bad assumption relative to what to expect, but we still feel very good about getting to that $50 billion in total.
K
Ken30:55
Got it. And then the second question is just on that NIM stabilizing in the fourth quarter. What are the pieces that kind of get there? Meaning, is it that one piece slows relative to the growth rate? Is it just that you kind of lap some comps? What are the helpful things underneath that that can give us the confidence that stabilization happens?
M
Mike Santomassimo31:18
Yeah, sure. And we've talked about this a little bit over the quarter, but we don't expect to see the markets balance sheet grow at the same pace, so the impact that we've seen over the last few quarters moderates, and that's certainly part of the story as you get into the latter part of the year. And then I think you continue to get the benefit of all of what we just talked about in terms of the growth in earning assets, the repricing. And then you sort of see the rest of the growth across the balance sheet. But at this point, as I said, we expect just a small decline potentially in the third quarter. Hopefully it ends up maybe even being better than that and then we stabilize from there.
K
Ken32:04
Okay, got it. Thanks, Mike.
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Operator32:08
The next question will come from John McDonald of Truist Securities. Your line is open.
J
John McDonald32:14
Hi, thanks. I was wondering, Mike, on expenses and efficiency. What's the outlook? I mean, you've done a great job with the outlook on headcount. So from here, are you still looking to keep that flat to down? And just the broader commentary about the opportunity for efficiency improvement from here to keep going. Thanks.
M
Mike Santomassimo32:35
Yeah, sure. I'll take a shot and start and Charlie can add if he wants. On the headcount side, or just more broadly on efficiency, we still come into the environment thinking the same thing we've now done for a number of years, like we've got a lot of room to go to continue to make the place more efficient. And in part that drives headcount down. So given the size of our business, the activity levels we've got, we expect that we should be able to run this company with less headcount than we've got today. Certainly, technology and AI helps us get at aspects of that in a different way or faster than maybe in the past, but we expect that we'll continue to see more efficiency from here. And then just more broadly, it applies to just about everything we do. And I know we keep talking about this over and over, but as you peel back the onion, there's more opportunity to make things more automated, to improve the client experience, to make things more efficient in terms of how we serve clients every day. And I think there's a lot still to go. And we just come in every day and every week to make sure that we continue to execute like we've done over the last few years.
J
John McDonald33:49
Okay. Thanks. And then maybe just to follow up on Ken's line of questioning around the net interest income drivers, the change in non-interest-bearing from what you saw, what you were expecting earlier in the year, Mike, is that related to any developments in your checking account growth or is it more attributable to rate-seeking behavior on customers and just the rate environment? What do you attribute the change in your NIB outlook to?
M
Mike Santomassimo34:14
Yeah. No, it's actually not related to the checking account growth. That's actually progressing quite well and as Charlie mentioned, we're up in sort of the checking account growth now for a number of quarters and months in a row and so I think that's actually going quite well. I think when you look at just the broader backdrop in terms of the rate environment, we expected a little bit more growth than we're seeing. We did see a little bit of growth from the first quarter to the second quarter, so that's good. But we expect it to be pretty stable from here. We are seeing really good success in growing interest-bearing deposits and growing other business with clients in the payment space, in the treasury management space. And so those things will bring that non-interest-bearing deposits with them over time. It just takes a little bit longer for that stuff to get onboarded and to see the results there. But we're not seeing pricing pressure or client behavior drive any of the results.
J
John McDonald35:12
Okay. Thank you.
O
Operator35:16
The next question will come from Erica Narian of UBS. Your line is open.
E
Erica Narian35:22
Hi. Good morning. Thanks for all the callers so far. You know, as we think about the trajectory of net interest income and net interest margin, I'm wondering if we could maybe just take a step back because, obviously there is a lot of focus on this number. But I'm wondering if we could sort of separate the structural factors versus the cyclical factors. So first, what are you expecting for deposit costs in the second half of the year? Is there a rate hike priced in? I think you removed the cuts but Mike I just wanted to make sure what you understood what you were assuming for the short end. So what should we expect from deposit cost standpoint from here? And additionally, you have two strategies that are sort of competing factors on the NIM. One is this great growth in markets which is obviously NIM dilutive and also strong momentum in card which in theory could be NIM accretive especially once the accounts mature. So, as we think of all of those factors, how should we think about whether or not we should expect more secular pressure on the NIM beyond the fact the macro factors with rates and deposit costs in the second half of the year.
M
Mike Santomassimo36:44
Yeah. Okay, Erica, there's a lot in there, so I'll try to get it. And if I miss a piece, please point me in the right direction. So, I think when you look at what's happening across NIM, obviously what we've got baked in to the second half of the year is the market's pricing in a little over one increase at this point. And so I think we'll see how that actually plays out, but that'll have very little impact on the full year results just given the timing of it depending on when that happens. And so I think that's not like a huge driver one way or the other. I think what's happening in our deposit book though is that we're seeing the pace of interest-bearing deposits grow at a really good clip. And you can see that in the results quarter after quarter. And I think if even if you just look at the CIB and the corporate investment bank and the commercial bank deposits where you've seen really good deposit growth year on year and sequentially. And the majority of those deposits are going to be interest-bearing deposits. And so since they're growing faster and you're seeing slower growth in the consumer side and pretty stable non-interest-bearing deposits, you're going to see the deposit cost inch up a little bit. And that's actually fine and expected and frankly not a bad thing because we're growing these profitable balances across the businesses. So I would expect the deposit cost to just move up a little bit as you go in the second half of the year. But ultimately I think that's actually a good thing from a profitability point of view and supports the broader set of business that we do with those customers. And then as I sort of mentioned in the commentary, we expect a little bit more NIM compression in the third quarter and things then start to stabilize and you get the benefit of all of the other impacts that we sort of talked about in terms of...
Of the earning asset growth, the repricing that's happening across a large portion of the book, the securities book, and all of that I think contributes quite well. And I think just keep in mind as we sort of look at NII, what we're most focused on here is really growing NI over a long period of time that will generate really profitable business and relationships that we'll see benefit us for many years to come. And you may see a little bit of volatility in the NIM number that you've seen over the last few quarters, and that's to be expected just given where we came from last year with the asset cap coming off and the pace of growth that you've seen since then.
C
Charlie Scharf39:33
Let me just add, Eric, this is Charlie, if I can, a couple of things. Number one is, I think the way we think about this is kind of separate out our balance sheet and what you're seeing into a couple of different components. One is just kind of the business that we have which generates the majority of NI, that is very stable. And then we have these businesses that we're looking to grow, both in the markets business but also ultimately expanding relationships and treasury management on the consumer side. And there, as we talked about, you're seeing growth in interest-bearing liabilities, and so it's those additional businesses that have narrower margin NIM that is bringing down the NIM, but we're looking at it in terms of what it means in the shorter term for profit growth and for returns, and we feel good about that at this point. But more importantly, over time, that should also help us grow NIM as we attract more non-interest bearing over a period of time, and away from NIM we generate stronger trading revenues, and so that is the flywheel effect of that financing that we're providing. And as I've said, if we don't see that, then we can certainly pull back on some of that activity and improve the NIM. But as I said in our prepared remarks, we are seeing the payoff certainly on the market side at this point even though it's early, and that's a decision point that we have to make, and we'll be very conscious of what the impact is both on NIM but also on the balance between what you see in terms of NIM, profit growth, but returns.
E
Erica Narian41:28
Yeah, hear you loud and clear, Charlie. I think that's why I wanted to frame it in terms of structural and growth. And to that end, the second question is just the opportunities in your areas of where you're focusing growth. So maybe talk a little bit about the investment banking pipeline but also in terms of the equities opportunity. We're hearing that a lot of your peers are a little bit more limited in terms of prime equities financing capacity given the hyperscaler trade in Asia. Of course, you're not quite big globally yet, and you did mention it in your prepared remarks in terms of financing related activity. Maybe describe a little bit more the prime financing opportunity that lies ahead, especially if the traditional counterparties have more limited capacity because of activities outside of the US.
M
Mike Santomassimo42:28
Yeah, it's Mike. Eric, I'll start on both parts of it. So on the investment banking pipeline, the pipeline's quite strong, and I think we see that now very consistently for a while now, and I think the environment is very supportive of deals. The markets are wide open both on the equity side and on the debt side. And I think the art of the possible in the M&A space is quite alive, and I think there's a lot of active dialogue there. And I think you can see our investment banking business had a really good quarter. And I think all the investments that we've made over the last three or four years have positioned us to take advantage of this environment more than we would have been able to three, four, five years ago by a lot. And we're continuing to make more investments in targeted areas across different coverage sectors and in some of the product areas. And so we feel good about the trajectory there, and we'll see how it progresses. And just on the broader question, I would just say listen, I think what we've said in the past still holds true, which is that there's a lot of great competition out there. There are people that are very large in some of these businesses including prime. But what we have found is that people want more options. They want more counterparties. We have relationships with a broad set of these customers, and they generally like doing business with us, and so they want to do more. And so for us, it's a question of just pacing that addition in terms of the amount of business that we do properly. We're still very early in terms of growing out our prime business, so there's nothing really material in this current quarter relative to that, but it is an opportunity that we're going to be careful about. But that along with other trading flow opportunities that we have and the investment banking opportunities that we've talked about, we still think are incredibly significant for us.
E
Erica Narian44:40
Thank you.
O
Operator44:44
The next question will come from Ibrahim Punuala of Bank of America. Your line is open.
I
Ibrahim Punuala44:52
Hey, good morning. So, not to beat a dead horse on the margin, and I like the stock obviously sold off when you started talking about your margin outlook. Understand you're not running the bank on one day stock reaction. But maybe a bigger picture question if we take a step back and appreciate Mike your comments around the trajectory of the NI which I think is more important than what the NIM does any given quarter. But as we look forward beyond even this year, do you think the net interest margin given your balance sheet and the business strategy going forward is at a point where the margin should begin to stabilize post that VQ compression you talked about? And one of the pushbacks this morning has been like the ex the markets revenue growth predominantly NI driven. So I guess the street is struggling to see the cross sell of deploying that markets balance sheet into lower NIM and then that translating into better fee growth on the market side. Or maybe help us understand that from a market standpoint and then how should we think about just a normalized NIM for your balance sheet or business strategy?
M
Mike Santomassimo46:11
Sure. I think on the NIM side, as I said earlier on the call, we do expect it to stabilize after you get through the third quarter. And so that's definitely the case. And as Charlie mentioned, over a slightly longer time period, there's opportunity to expand the NIM, not just stabilize. And so I think that's certainly what we expect as we look at the rest of the year. I think when you start looking at the overall trading business, you certainly see some growth in NI, but it's not all because of the rate move that we saw. You get paid in some of these trading businesses through NI, you think mortgages, mortgage trading, and other areas of that business. And so you really need to look at overall revenue in the markets business. And when you look at the financing side of the business, that's up, it's not quite a double, but it's pretty close when you look at the year-on-year performance in the overall financing revenue within the business. And then you saw roughly a 20 plus percent increase in the trading related revenue off the back of that. And so I think we've seen quite a bit of growth across these parts of the business within trading. And then more importantly, when you start looking at the individual clients where we're deploying some of this incremental financing balance sheet, every single one of them all but a couple have done significantly more business with us than they did just a year ago, and that's just getting started in terms of ramping up some of the volumes. And so I think you'll continue to see that across the markets business into the coming quarters. But we feel really good about what we're seeing and the trend that we're seeing there.
C
Charlie Scharf48:18
Let me just add one thing, slightly different words but kind of reinforcing a point that I made earlier. What we're seeing in NIM is not happening to us. What we're seeing in NIM is because of things that we're doing, and those are things that we don't have to continue to do or we can unwind at some point as well. And again, the reason why we're doing it is because we believe that it'll lead to stronger NIM in some of these businesses in the future by attracting more non-interest bearing deposits or by attracting additional trading. And that's either going to drive the kind of profit growth and higher returns that we believe we can deliver, or that's a decision point that we can make. And so we understand that it's hard to see that as clearly from the outside, so we've got to do a good job of doing our best to show you how that's actually playing itself out. But as Mike said, when it comes to the financing as an example, we look client by client, and we're providing more financing, we're getting more share, higher trading revenues. And so that's when I said on the last call, we're either going to get paid for it or we're not going to do it, and that very much holds true. And so the fact that that is in our control is something I think that's critically important and is a tool for us to help grow the returns and the profit of the company, or we can either slow things down or reverse course if we had to, but nothing suggests that we should do that because we believe that we're getting the payoff for it, and we'll have to show that to you.
I
Ibrahim Punuala49:56
I think that's a great point, Charlie. That the NIM is due to the deliberate actions you're taking. And I think the one point of discussion that's come up repeatedly with investors over the last month or two is no one doubts when they think about can Wells achieve a higher end of your 17 to 18, so let's call it 18% ROTCE over the next few years. I think as the street is trying to digest what the execution around this growth strategy may imply, I think the timing of that has become a bit more uncertain I would say over the last 6 months. And so to the extent you can address that just through your crystal ball, how do you think about when you could achieve that target maybe towards that 18% which also, if I recall, you've talked about as a waypoint and we could go even higher than 18%. Maybe if you can provide some color around the timing of how you think about it, I think that would be very helpful to your shareholders. Thank you.
C
Charlie Scharf50:52
Sure. Sure. And listen, I know it's a very busy day and you guys are trying to juggle lots of different companies. I did talk a little bit about this in my prepared remarks where I talked about the fact that I know that people ask about timing. It's difficult to answer because what I don't want to do, what we don't want to do as a company, is give you a definitive date and then have the interest rate environment change, the markets environment change, credit change, and then you believe that we haven't actually delivered on something. Because the fact is we are subject to those things, but assuming that the markets continue to behave and that conditions continue to be favorable, what I said is that we would expect to achieve it in a reasonable time frame. And the one thing I would say which is, as time goes on, from last quarter's underlying performance and our business trends in this quarter, we feel even more confident about being able to deliver it. And what I said in my prepared remarks is that our intention is to get there and then raise the bar higher for the future. So if we didn't have the kind of confidence that we can get there in a reasonable period of time, we wouldn't be saying that. And again, what gives us that confidence is looking at the underlying business drivers that we tried to lay out in the first two pages of the presentation, because it's those things which are going to drive the continued growth of the franchise regardless, to some extent, of outsized performance in the markets. So I know it's not giving you a definitive time frame, but what I want you to read is our confidence is higher, not lower, as each quarter goes by.
I
Ibrahim Punuala52:34
Appreciate you going through it again. Thank you.
O
Operator52:39
The next question will come from Anosalia of Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.
A
Anosalia52:46
Hi, good morning. I wanted to dig in a little bit on loan growth. Clearly very strong this quarter. You noted the upside to the original loan growth guide for the full year. Can you just walk us through some of the drivers on what you're seeing now? How much of the commercial loan growth reflects high utilization versus new customer equity, customer activity, and I guess your willingness and ability to lead more on the auto side going forward?
M
Mike Santomassimo53:18
Sure. I'll start maybe on the consumer side and then I'll bring it back on the commercial side. So on the consumer side, we continue to see really good growth in auto. We see steady growth in card, and the home lending business is kind of pretty stable at this point. And I think those trends we would expect to continue as you look at the rest of the year, so steady as you go in terms of what we've been seeing quarter to quarter there. I think on the commercial loan side, it's really not utilization. We see a little bit in pockets of slightly more utilization here or there, but it's really not substantially higher utilization of revolvers. It is new business we've been bringing on that drives a lot of it in the CNI space. And I think we'll see how the rest of the year progresses. As I mentioned in the script, we certainly have seen higher loan growth than what we had assumed in the beginning of the year, and that's a positive. We'll have to see how the rest of the year goes. I think you definitely see tariff refunds coming through impacting some commercial bank clients in terms of their utilization, and you see a bunch of other factors there, but I think it's been good so far, and we'll see how it progresses for the rest of the year. And importantly, with that, we're seeing really good performance from a credit perspective across all the portfolios, and I think that supports continued execution across each of the businesses and growing those portfolios.
A
Anosalia54:59
Got it. Thank you. And then maybe on the capital side, $3 billion of buybacks this quarter, a little bit below the recent base. How should we think about where you want to manage to in your CET1 target range and how should we think about repurchases going forward here?
M
Mike Santomassimo55:19
Sure. I mean we're really comfortable in the range that we put out there of 10 to 10 and a half. Really anywhere in that range we're comfortable with. And we'll approach buybacks the same way we do every quarter. We look at what we expect to do from a client perspective and what growth we expect to see across the portfolios and the business. We think about all the different risks that are out there, including the rate environment and the volatility that may be there and how that impacts capital. And then we'll make decisions on how much we buy back each quarter. So we'll sort of keep that progression as we go this quarter, and we'll see where we get to. But we certainly, as we mentioned, we bought back $7 billion in the first half of the year, and I think we still have capacity to buy back more as we go. We'll make the decision as we go in the quarter.
C
Charlie Scharf56:10
And also keep in mind, Mike's talking about this absent the finalization of the capital rules. And as we've said in the past, the capital rules might not necessarily change that CET1 minimum plus buffers, but it could certainly change what goes into the calculation relative to freeing up capital through the RWA calculation for us.
M
Mike Santomassimo56:39
Yeah. And just as a reminder, we still expect our RWA to go down as a result of at least what was proposed by about 7%, so we'll see how it gets finalized.
A
Anosalia56:51
Got it. And if I can ask a quick clarification on that. So you would need to see the rules being finalized before you act on that lower CET1 ratio or on the ability for the new capital rules to give you more CET1? You would only act on that in terms of buybacks or capital deployment once the rules are finalized?
M
Mike Santomassimo57:19
Yeah, I think we need to see the rule get finalized. But hopefully that'll get done pretty quickly.
A
Anosalia57:24
Got it. Thank you.
O
Operator57:28
The next question will come from Matt Okconor of Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.
M
Matt Okconor57:33
Good morning. Just a quick comment before my question here. As your markets business has gotten bigger, I know you give us the pieces that we could probably calculate it, but showing the NIM ex-markets I think might be helpful and cut a handful of these questions related to it. My question is, the new credit card accounts as you pointed out are up sharply post lifting of the asset cap. I think it's up 50 to 60% now in the four quarters. Any way to estimate how much of a drag there is from those new cards related promotions as we think about the credit card yield, and then when does that inflect as that backbook kind of starts overwhelming the new accounts?
M
Mike Santomassimo58:20
Yeah. So as Charlie sort of mentioned in his script, we've made some intentional decisions to continue to execute on growing those accounts. And I think the good part about what we've seen now for the last almost four quarters, I guess started really in the third quarter of last year, is a lot of those new accounts are actually coming through either our branch network or people coming directly to Wells Fargo.com, and so the acquisition costs there are lower than if you're doing them through third-party affiliates and others. And so that's a really good thing, and with that comes really high quality accounts. We know these customers, the majority of it still existing customers that are coming to us for these cards, and so I think that's a good thing. And I think as those vintages are a little bit bigger than the early vintages, but overall we'll continue to make those decisions as we go quarter to quarter and decide what we're seeing and how happy we are with the quality of it. But despite that, I think over the next couple years, you will see the profitability of that business just continue to increase, and the returns increase in the business, and that's the way we've been managing it. And then the yield quarter to quarter in terms of what you see from the credit card yield will move around a little bit depending on what we see from the new acquisitions, but over a longer period of time, you'll see that continue to increase as those vintages mature and you transition from the intro APRs or the balance transfer APRs into real revolving balances, and that'll happen over the next couple years.
M
Matt Okconor1:00:18
Okay, thank you.
O
Operator1:00:22
The next question will come from John Pankary of Evercore ISI. Your line is open.
J
John Pankary1:00:28
Morning. I just want to see if you can comment a bit more just around deposit price competition that you're seeing. How is it trending versus your expectations, and then related to that, I know you did comment on the growth expectation on the loan front on the mid-single-digit side. Do you still have confidence around a mid-single-digit pace growth as you look at your deposit strategy? Thanks.
M
Mike Santomassimo1:00:53
Yeah, I mean the short answer on the second part is yes on the deposits, and again a little more weighted to interest-bearing than non-interest bearing as I mentioned, John. But we're seeing week to week, month to month, the growth that we expect there, so I think that's good. On the pricing competition question, it really hasn't changed over the last few quarters. On the consumer side, our standard rates haven't moved. We're not seeing shifts in behavior than what we've seen over the last few quarters there in terms of people yield seeking in any way. So I think that's good. And then on the commercial side, rates are always competitive, but we have not seen rates get more competitive than what we would have expected normally across those businesses. And we're really careful to not overpay to attract balances. And so I think we're not seeing that kind of pressure. And there's always an example of something to the contrary, but I think when you look at the vast majority of the activity we're seeing, it's all very much right in the fairway of what we would have expected to see.
J
John Pankary1:02:10
Okay. Thanks. And then separately on expenses, I appreciate the color you already gave around efficiency and everything. Can you maybe just give us a little update around the risk and regulatory area of the cost base? I know there's still a fair amount of headcount dedicated to that area. Is this broader area now that a lot of the regulatory issues have been worked through becoming a greater expense lever for you? Thanks.
M
Mike Santomassimo1:02:33
Yes, certainly. And I think we talked about that over the last couple years, right? As we completed the work and moved past the consent orders that we had in place, you'll see us continue to make those processes that we put in place more efficient. And if you think about where we started this journey five or six, seven years ago now, I think there's better technology, there's better ways to do things, and so the normal streamlining that sort of happens is happening. But that'll be a very methodical sort of approach, and you'll see that happen over time. But it's certainly part of some of the efficiency that you're seeing come through in the last couple quarters.
J
John Pankary1:03:15
Okay. Thanks, Mike. Appreciate it.
O
Operator1:03:20
The next question will come from Chris McGrady of Keefe, Bruette and Woods. Your line is open.
C
Chris McGrady1:03:27
Oh, great. Just one on credit. It's been questions have been fairly limited on conference calls this quarter and throughout the quarter. Just a check in on consumer health, the consumer anything incremental you may be seeing, and then conversely on the commercial borrower, demand for credit we talked about, but just any signs within the commercial book of weakening or normalization. Thanks.
M
Mike Santomassimo1:03:53
Yeah, on the consumer side, it really is good. The delinquency trends are better than we model most months, really every month that we've seen now for all year across each of the portfolios. We're not seeing any signs, we're not seeing any cohorts of clients whether you break it by FICO or other ways to look at higher or lower income levels. We're not seeing any of the trends in any of the cohorts change at all, certainly not in anything meaningful. And so I think it's supportive of a good second half of the year when you think about delinquencies and charge-offs. And so I think that's really good. And that's supported by the strong employment picture that we see more broadly, and we've seen good wage growth to counteract some of the inflationary issues that we've had. And so overall, you're seeing really good performance on the consumer side. On the commercial side, same, there's no systemic issues that we're seeing come through the portfolio. There's always individual idiosyncratic issues you might see with an individual borrower. But overall, we're seeing really good credit performance. I think people are still being very cautious about big investments. They still have more liquidity in most cases than they did historically pre-COVID days. You're not seeing people make big investments in terms of hiring lots of people, but you're also not seeing people fire a lot of people, at least from what we can tell in our book. And so I think overall, people are managing their liquidity and managing their overall balance sheets quite well on the commercial side. And so again, we have not seen anything that would suggest there's a change to that at this point.
C
Chris McGrady1:05:51
Great. Thank you.
O
Operator1:05:55
The next question will come from David Chevarini with Jefferies. Your line is open, sir.
D
David Chevarini1:06:02
Hi, thanks for taking the question. So, you mentioned about the markets business asset growth should slow in the second half. Is that a function of this business getting to your comfort level and then from there the markets business asset growth should be in line with overall balance sheet growth?
M
Mike Santomassimo1:06:22
No, it's not necessarily that. I think when you think about what happened pre-asset cap, we really had to constrain that business. And so the financing balances that we added starting in the second half of June last year was at a pace that is just not sustainable forever. And so it really was the reemergence and the re-entry, I guess in some cases, into the financing activity that we had just more broadly across that business. And so you'll see it start to more get to a natural growth rate over the next couple quarters. And then we'll see, and we'll decide how fast it goes from there based on the opportunity sets that are there. But the pace you saw was really a reflection of us coming out of the asset cap and being able to deploy balance sheet at a pace that was just different than normal.
C
Charlie Scharf1:07:45
Yeah, and as I mentioned in my commentary, we're up about $200 billion since the end of 2024. So that's a good clip over the last 18 months.
D
David Chevarini1:07:54
Got it. That's helpful. And then shifting over, I was curious about advisor hiring. Can you talk about the competitiveness and the pipeline you're seeing there?
M
Mike Santomassimo1:08:05
Yeah, I mean, advisor, getting really good advisors and teams of advisors has always been competitive, and I think continues to be competitive. We're very disciplined about our approach to that. We don't overpay. We have not changed our deal to recruit advisors in a while and don't plan to. So we may miss out on some teams if that's the case. So what we try to make sure that we're providing is the right platform with the right capabilities to attract these advisors. And I think that's really resonated. And if you look at the last three quarters, we've had close to, if not record, recruiting in terms of the amount of business they bring. So think of it as revenue that's coming onto the platform over the last three quarters each quarter. And so it's been quite good to see. And our attrition is at a record low for us in terms of attrition that we're seeing across the advisor space. And what's good about the types of advisors we're attracting is they bring really good investment business, but they also bring the need for banking, which is both deposits and lending, which I think really rounds out the profitability of the business that's coming out of the platform, which helps improve the margin of that business over a longer period of time. And so the team's done a really nice job attracting the right types of advisors, and the pipeline that we've got is quite good in terms of looking at the rest of the year.
D
David Chevarini1:09:41
Very helpful. Thank you.
O
Operator1:09:45
The next question will come from VC Jana of JP Morgan. Your line is open.
V
VC Jana1:09:52
Thanks. Can you hear me?
C
Charlie Scharf1:09:55
Yes, we can.
V
VC Jana1:09:57
Thanks, Charlie. Mike, sorry. Just stepping back on NI, but stepping away even just from NIM. Both you and Mike said at conferences in the second quarter you were very confident about the $50 billion NI, and today you've gone to $50 billion plus or minus. Seems like a little bit of a shift. Any color on what's driving that? Is that a shift?
M
Mike Santomassimo1:10:30
David, no, no shift at all. The $50 billion plus or minus is exactly what we said in January and exactly what we said in the first quarter, and what I said at Morgan Stanley conference and others. And so, I think no shift at all and we're very confident. No intention to shift anything. Our guidance is the same and we feel confident about it.
V
VC Jana1:10:51
Okay. Good. That was an important clarification. Commercial loans, your period end growth slowed a little bit. Any color on what's driving that? Do you expect that to pick up again? And then what would be the driver of that? Anything that you can...
M
Mike Santomassimo1:11:09
Yeah, look at the period end numbers, driven by lots of factors. You had some seasonality through the quarter. You saw some tariff related refund related paydowns. But there's nothing that I would highlight as a change in overall sentiment that is impacting the clients. And as I said earlier, I think on the consumer side, we expect to see more growth in auto and in card. I think you'll see home lending be stable, and then I think you'll see some growth in the commercial portfolios in the second half of the year.
V
VC Jana1:11:42
Thank you.
O
Operator1:11:46
And the last question for today will come from Gerard Cassidy with RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open, sir.
G
Gerard Cassidy1:11:54
Thank you. Hi, Charlie. Hi, Mike. Can you guys share with us on credit? Obviously, your credit quality is very strong. The industry is experiencing really good credit in this period. Are you seeing any signs of risk taking by your competitors in terms of underwriting in the commercial loan area or it could be in consumer? And if not, what are you looking for as we go forward for some aggressive underwriting that could lead to issues in the next credit cycle?
M
Mike Santomassimo1:12:32
Yeah, let me take a stab at it. And Mike, you can either agree, correct me, or not. I think on the consumer side, we would say not really. What we see is kind of consistent underwriting versus the people that we compete with. Everyone kind of comes and goes sometimes, and times are good, but not a lot on the consumer side. I think on the wholesale side, it is a very different story. And that's where you see the deployment of significant amounts of capital not just from banks, from non-banks. And there is a wide range of risk that people are taking in the lending activities. I kind of try to allude to this in my remarks. We are staying true to who we are in terms of what our risk tolerances are in the context of a growing franchise. But when you look at whether it's things in data centers, some of the strategic transactions that are being done out there, there are more risk assets being created on the wholesale side. And there's a lot of capital out there that's there to support that. And we're doing the pieces of the transactions that we're comfortable with that have the credit profile that we're used to underwriting. And there are others that are willing to take more risk than we are.
G
Gerard Cassidy1:14:13
And just as a quick follow-up to that answer, Charlie, on the consumer, is there any way you guys measure or can capture the non-bank consumer lenders? And I know that they're not primarily your customer because they tend to be a higher risk customer, but is there any way of making sure that there's not a second derivative effect on your better quality consumer customers?
C
Charlie Scharf1:14:40
Well, I'm not sure I'm following this. I think when it comes to the consumer credit that we're extending, we're making our own credit decision with every single loan based upon everything that we know, including looking at bureau information and things that they might have away from us to the extent we can see it. And so that is totally within our control, and we understand that. We do see some of the activities in the non-bank universe through what we do on the wholesale side in terms of who we finance. And we've talked about this last quarter. It's good information to have, but we're also selective about who we're lending to, because not everyone in that space has the same risk tolerances.
G
Gerard Cassidy1:15:33
Understood.
And then just as the last final question, I know this is probably hard to answer, but AI has been just so powerful to the US economy in terms of capital expenditures. You mentioned data centers of course. Is there any way of getting your arms around second derivative exposures to the AI industry for Wells so that you know, I don't think you or many of your peers have direct data center construction loans, but I'm just wondering that if this boom slows down, is there some fallout that we could see potentially down the road on the second derivative of the suppliers or other folks that it's not as clear maybe today that they have that kind of exposure in their business models?
C
Charlie Scharf1:16:27
Yeah, I mean listen, I think when you look at the exposures that are being created to help finance the buildout, you're absolutely right. There are different types of things that are being financed, right? There's core and shell, there's power, there's chips, and there are a whole series of things that go into the data center. And we underwrite those different pieces of those financings very differently because we rely on different types of credit support for those to be paid off. And it's very different lending to a chip maker that has 80% margins where we get paid back in a year and a half versus lending to someone else in the supply chain who it's going to take 15 years or 10 years to get paid back and hope that the LLM provider who's renting that space is going to be there. And so that is the complication that everyone is working through in terms of who we lend to. And that's when I say that there are different kinds of risk that are being created here. And we're working to stay within the lane of the risks that we understand. We're confident not just that we understand it, we'll obviously get paid back. And different people have different risk tolerances, and that's always been the case.
G
Gerard Cassidy1:18:05
No, I appreciate the color. Thank you, Charlie.
C
Charlie Scharf1:18:08
All righty. All right. Thanks everyone.