Bringing Your Authentic Self to the Stage with Neil Curran

Welcome to the place where we learn about improv, because public speaking can take you so far. Probably speaking, say yes and flex your creative thinking. Probably speaking. Say yes and flex your creative thinking. Welcome, welcome, welcome everyone to the Improv Speaking podcast. So happy that you're joining today. I'm your host Dana Gowen and I'm so excited about today's guest. I just have to tell you, this is my first international guest here today. Super excited to have him on and we're going to talk all about improv and public speaking or improv speaking too. It's like the perfect match. I love it. For anyone new who's joining, let me just give you a rundown of the goals of this podcast. One, to help people understand the benefits of improvisation and applied improvisation. Two, to demonstrate how improv shows up in all aspects of our lives. And three, to inspire everyone to try new things, get out of their heads, and find creative outlets and passions that can help you. And I think we will accomplish that and much more in today's episode. So, let me tell you all about our special improbably speaking guest today, Neil Curran. Neil is based in Dublin, Ireland. He is a professional improviser and communications and teams expert. Neil has a master's in training and education with his master's dissertation focusing on improvisation as a training method to develop effective teams in the workplace with a focus on promoting confidence, interpersonal skills, and relationship building. I looked at the thesis. It is 61 plus pages long. Very thorough and well done. Neil is also a qualified executive coach with EQI certification and an experienced MC and speaker. He is also the founder and director of Improv Fest Ireland, which I hope to go to one day, and a director of Improv Utopia International, which I also hope to go to one day. Outside of Ireland, Neil has taught and performed in the UK, China, Italy, Spain, Poland, the US, and Canada, just to name a few. Neil uses improv as a training tool in the corporate environment, creating a space for active listening and active learning for all participants and attendees. Please welcome the super nuanced, nurturing, and very, very noble Neil Curran.

I'm great. I'm so excited you're here, Neil.

You know, that's a good reminder for us US folks that there are others besides the US too, right? Sometimes we need that reminder. Very true. Very true. Neil, I'm so excited to have you. And you know, we share a Camp Improv Utopia bond. I actually saw this is how we've connected. I saw a post from Camp Improv Spain, which was in April this year. Someone posted on their stories, one of your stories, and they shared it on theirs, and I was like, 'Oh, that looks like fun.' Just happened to check out your Instagram profile and it said that you teach improv and public speaking and like light bulbs went off. I was like, 'Oh, who's that? I need to talk to him.' And I messaged you and I'm so glad you said yes. And so, thank you.

It does. Yeah, we do share that improv utopia bond. Even though we haven't attended a camp together, I feel like once you've attended a Camp Improv Utopia camp in general, you're connected as a family. That's so true.

So, how long have you been a part of Camp Improv Utopia?

Well, I got to ask you, I know Spain was this year. Is there a chance Ireland could come back at some point?

Yeah. Well, how was the Spain camp this year? Because this was the first time in Spain, right?

No, I've had multiple episodes about camp, my experience at camp, guests on from camp. I don't make any money from these promotions or camp exposure and I'm happy to do that because it is just such an amazing experience. I went to West camp a few weeks ago, met Pin and he actually—he wasn't facilitating a class but he did a workshop as a like a free time activity and it was great. I didn't attend because my Spanish is muy terrible but a lot of people went and had a lot of fun and it looked like a good time and you know it was a super special experience every time I go to camp. That was my third camp—first camp at West, I've done two at Yuseite—so third camp experience and it was just magical and I got so many light bulb moments of ideas and epiphanies from it that you just can't get that anywhere else. I feel like.

Oh, we had a person, Rachel, who had not done any improv before coming to camp this year, too. And I didn't have any workshops with her, but at the end, one of the instructors gave her a certificate or an award for just having the bravery and courage to come. I don't think I have the balls to do something like that, go to a camp that I've of something I've never tried before. And I just salute anyone who's willing to try that. And I think she had a blast. She made a lot of friends. It looked like she had a good time. So, you know, you can't go wrong at an improv camp. That's what I told myself the first time I went. I was really nervous. I was like, 'Okay, well, an improv camp, like everyone's going to be friendly at least and have that yes and mindset and stuff.' And it did not disappoint at all.

Well, and Neil, I've got to ask since, you know, we're very US focused and I really don't know what improv is like outside of the US in those other parts. God, I sound like such a snob. I swear I'm not. But what is the improv scene like in Ireland?

That's so cool. You're really inspiring me that I need to expand my boundaries, my limits, my horizons. And I mean that's on the list to go to some of these improv fests outside internationally and just see what other groups are doing in the world. And I have to ask you too on the flip side. So when you've come to the US to do improv, what is that experience like? Did you feel like the terms and the phrases are usually the same? The culture, the love of improv is the same or did it take some adjustment?

Yeah, that's a whole new world for me. I mean, that's definitely outside the bubble because as a newbie, I still classify myself as a newbie improviser. Been doing it for three and a half years. I don't know. I'm not sure where the time cut off is for newbie versus maybe intermediate, but that's just a whole new world. I feel like I'm struggling to just be funny up on US LA stages and to go to another country where it is a different culture of comedy and like what is funny—that's very intimidating and something I don't even think about. It's worth the challenge though to do it.

I love that perspective. That is a great way to reframe that. Intimidating versus fun. And you know what? I live in the US and I haven't read or seen any Harry Potter shows. I'm probably going to lose fans because of that now. But that always intimidates me too when Harry Potter comes up in scenes because I'm like, I have no idea. I don't want to get it wrong, right? That's my first thought is I don't want to get it wrong. I don't want to mess it up. I don't want to ruin someone's scene because I don't know who Dumbledore is and all this stuff. But that's actually the joy and fun of it is when you try and you're gonna get it wrong, but you try and then there's some funny thing that comes up too.

Yeah. Well, and Neil, I mean, just 20 minutes in, you sound like a wealth—I know you are a wealth of improv knowledge. Can you tell us more about your improv journey? How did you get started in improv?

It's wonderful. Yes. And it's wonderful.

Well, you know, I think improv, the friendly disease is the perfect slogan for after a pandemic when we don't want to talk about diseases. No, but it is. I can attest. I mean, I know we hesitantly use the term life-changing because we don't want to be dramatic or exaggerating, but these skills, even though they are platitudes and these things that get thrown out there, sometimes we don't always get the full meaning until we go into it, but they really are life-changing. I know some people don't love the term yes and, but for me, it's a mindset thing. It's helped me grow. It's helped me take care of myself more, too. Take care of your scene partner, also taking better care of myself. And I don't know, I've learned a lot about myself in the past three years doing improv thanks to these skills.

Yay. Nice work. So, I noticed I was looking at your website and some of the classes that you offer and I saw some of your—I think it's your improv performance-based classes use the terms of authenticity and intimacy. So, is that what you focus on in your performance classes?

And then my next improv show will just probably be gag gag gag tag taco tag. Of course, because that's what you're not talking about. But I hear that a lot. I mean, that gets said a lot in our classes, too. Game is a big focus. I feel like here in LA with UCB especially and UCB adjacent schools, but I hear that too. Don't try to be funny. Just be present, be mindful. I don't feel like the word authentic gets used a ton in improv, but how do you help—you're teaching these classes. You have some newbies, some beginners, even some intermediate experienced folks who are still very much in their heads. How do you help students get out of their heads and just into the scene?

And again, with the usual caveats of a safe space for everyone.

But I will tell people

So same thing applies on stage. Keep that focus on the right now, the here and now. How are we affecting each other? So it's all about tension. I always talk about creating that tension, positive or negative. Tension being the bad stuff as in we're falling out, we're breaking up, we're moving out, we've discovered I've defrauded the company. And then the positive tension is the falling in love, the finding happiness, the becoming even closer friends. And that's all tension. In real life, when there's tension, unless it is positive, we tend to walk away from it, physically walk away from a distance or so. So it's teaching students, oh, move towards it. And it's rewiring their brain. I'm going through it with a class at the moment, and it is rewiring their brain that you're used to moving physically and mentally away from tension in real life. In improv, we walk towards it. And as part of doing that, you're sewing the seeds and the roots as such of them realizing that you're on stage with the most supportive people in the world, with improvisers. So that tension is a joy. Yeah, you're going to get angry with this character. Great. Enjoy getting angry with this character. It's wonderful because you're in a safe space to do that. So yeah, that's a very... I need more sound bites to sum that course those choruses up. But that's essentially where we're going. We're allowing ourselves to get into that deep space. And another thing, sorry now you're going to have to edit all this. But another thing with it as well, back in my theater days,

Wow. So, your Neil Plus One show is anyone from the audience that can do it or do you...

Well, I was going to ask, do you get willing participants? Because if you're not used to being on the stage, I imagine a lot of people don't raise their hands.

I like that too. I want to unpack a few things you said previously too. I got distracted by the shiny object of Neil Plus One show which I wanted to ask you about too but you mentioned about having a benchmark and how like in sports which I relate to. I grew up playing sports. There are benchmarks. You win a game, you make all the baskets. I play volleyball. You get a lot of kills, digs. There's all kinds of stats you can track to benchmark your progress. But when you said that, I was like, 'Oh my god, you're so right that like in improv, it's so hard to benchmark your progress because yeah, you might get laughs, but like the audience is always different, so it might just land differently.' So that really hit home just like not having the pressure to benchmark your progress and just learning and growing.

That's what I did this year too.

Yeah. Follow the fear. Follow the fun. I like to follow that up with not just follow the fear but follow the fun because there is fun when you do face that fear.

Well and you mentioned previously too is leaning into the conflict and something I struggled with when I first started every scene was full of fighting and conflict. It's like you watch TV and there's so much drama and conflict and so you're like okay well now I'm in a scene I need to cause all the conflict and I would get a lot of notes of let's try to yes and and agree or let's try not to go the conflict route but I really liked what you were saying is conflict's going to show up and we don't need to run from it. We can actually lean into it and actually move towards it and connect with it.

Well, and you know what? I'm going to lean into a flaw that I have very long episodes. I don't know if it's a flaw. You can get a lot done when you listen to long podcast episodes and you can clean your house and go for long walks. So, it's not a flop, but I'll lean into it. I want to take a quick break and then Neil, when we come back, I want to ask you more about your public speaking journey and your public speaking workshops, too. Stay tuned. We'll be right back.

All right, and we're back with Neil Curran talking all things improv and connection and tension and authenticity. And I just I've taken copious notes. I am just loving all this. You know, sometimes it just takes someone saying it in a different way to make things click. And Neil, I appreciate you sharing all this because I feel like it's kind of clicking a little bit more.

And you not only teach performance-based improv classes for people who want to perform on stage and take improv classes, you also teach corporate workshops and public speaking workshops using improv exercises to teach these skills. And before we jump into that, I did want to ask you, what has your journey been like as a public speaker? Did you always love public speaking or did you have to learn to love it?

Quite a mix. But it's all communication. It's communication. It's the door opener.

Right.

Do you use the term improv when you're describing, okay, we're gonna do these exercises because some applied facilitators will hide that it's an improv exercise because the word improv is scary. How do you handle that?

Yes that it's a good skill and all that to have but it's like what are we going to achieve through improv? What's the end goal? And even if it is team building because they have a bit of budget and they want to have a team building session before they go out for dinner or before they have a few drinks, I'll still use that as an opportunity to say, 'What would you like to walk away with?' You know, what's beyond that? So improv is the process. It's the tool that we use and the context then is important. I remember doing a talk for the one of the regional applied improv meetups about this like improv is a dirty word in a way and you know applied improv sounds softer but I think when you're speaking to a client in any industry you have to use their language that's the language they

Well put, yeah. I hear that a lot and I mean I've certainly called my business 'Improbably Speaking' so I'm not going to hide that so much but also when you're up there speaking you might not reference the company's name. And I do think that is important because we don't want people coming in with a biased form or like you know just like a clean neutral slate and then they can see what they think and glean from these exercises without having to call them improv. So I pass no judgment. I'm always curious. I like to hear people's takes on that.

I've heard other people say that too and yeah I was in a session where someone went through like examples of how they run their workshops and they said the exact same thing. Someone asked like, 'How are you okay with sharing how you run like a whole session with us? Like, are you not feeling like this is competition?' And she said, 'No, because the better you all get at presenting, the better I succeed, too. We all succeed the better we're at.' And I think that's such a message of just improv and support.

Neil, I saw that you have a speaking offscript master class, which I really like that phrasing because I hear from a lot of people that they don't mind giving presentations. I'm in the insurance industry space. There's a lot of PowerPoint presentations. People seem to feel safe with their slides. They're like, 'Oh, I'm fine if there are slides up. I'm fine to present.' But when we get to the Q&A portion, that is when the fear and anxiety kicks in. And I'm like, 'Oh, well, improv can help with that.' But how do you help people who are in that same boat and help them to be more authentic when speaking off the cuff?

Yeah. Oh, I love that game.

Going back to your authenticity piece, I like the terms you use like animated and expressive because sometimes I think we hear 'authentic' but it's like what does that really mean? How would you describe authentic?

You know, when I was first starting my public speaking journey, so I have a very opposite journey from you. I was very terrified of it. I would turn red. I would be very shaky. My legs would shake, my hands would shake, my voice would shake. I never felt very effective with it. I would ramble. All the common tropes of the fear of public speaking. And so when I started to work on it in Toastmasters, I would get the feedback probably three to five years into Toastmasters that I was very polished. And I liked that as a comment then because polished meant almost perfect in my mind. Polished meant no filler words and very organized and it flowed and the pacing was good. But I've kind of shifted that now to where it's not that I don't want to be polished. I certainly want to have practiced and I want to be organized and I certainly don't want to be like this rambling machine, but I feel like polished is a bit too rigid in my opinion and I would prefer to be more authentic to use that term and just be myself. So sometimes I do talk fast. Sometimes I do make mistakes. Sometimes I do use filler words. And I've become okay with that because I think that's more me than the polished version of me that I was trying to attain. Does that kind of fit in line with what you're teaching?

And we are unfairly critical of filled pauses and ums and you know rarely had clients and I'm sure you're the same. People like 'Oh, I said a lot.'

I love that. I really like that perspective of it. I share a very similar perspective of like as long as your story is engaging, like you feel good about your content, I can tell you feel good about your content. You're having fun up there. Even if it's a terrible, like you're sharing even your deepest, darkest story, you might not have fun, per se, but like you're being vulnerable up there. That goes so much further than did you not say any filler words and was it organized well and clearly and all that. Some of the best stories I've heard on The Moth and different storytelling platforms have been riddled with um and yet they're the best stories. They're the most memorable because they were themselves telling the story and not trying to be someone else.

Well, and so your thesis was focused on developing effective teams in the workplace using improv as a training method or tool. And I know in your title it says you focused on promoting confidence, interpersonal skills, and relationship building. So, did public speaking play a role in that or was it more broad? In general,

How was that experience writing your thesis? Because I have my masters in public health but I skipped the whole thesis writing part and did the community project practicum experience instead and I was so happy I did. But what was that experience like for you and learning from that?

So very interesting from that perspective. I have great admiration. I do want to mention I would love to do a PhD in it but my god I'm not that silly at this point in my life. But I have great admiration. There's a couple people who are currently doing PhDs in improv or I know it's not strictly in improv but improv forms part of their PhD and they're very vocal about it online. David Escobado and Paul Rabinets in particular. So it's great to see that they're encouraging those conversations more and I imagine for anyone doing academically looking at improv there's a lot more resources there particularly thanks to David. So that's great to see but yeah it was an interesting experience. We have a long way to go from an applied improv perspective to catch up with the rest of the world or not the rest of the world, the rest of the academic world. And that's not a criticism, it's just where we are.

To use and cite and use as a resource. But I agree certainly it'd be helpful to have more of it and I totally understand that was my question. Any plan to continue writing and researching but I do understand that is quite the commitment in getting your PhD.

Yeah. Well, and this podcast focuses on creative outlets and the goal is to encourage listeners to try new things. And I say that because as I am in my corporate world and experience, I've been in my career for about 10 years. I've always had creative outlets. I feel like just me personally, I need creative outlets. If I just have my job, I'm going to go crazy. I'm not going to be a very happy person. I need some kind of creative fulfillment outside of my job. Question for you. Do you have any creative outlets that you dabble in besides improv and applied improv?

Yeah. And I think that's important because improv is like my number one hobby too and now it's like starting to be a thing that I talk about in the podcast and I do and yeah, I've been trying to find some other outlets as well. I signed up for a standup class that I'm taking right now just to try some different sides of comedy and I think it all helps each other in the long run too.

Yeah, I agree. And you mentioned growth mindset, which is another word for yes and mindset. If we're just throwing out more platitudes there, how do you embody a yes and or growth mindset in your life?

So, you got some caveats.

Yeah.

I hope this doesn't come off cliche or anything, but you mentioned you were a film buff and what are your thoughts on The Banshees of Inisherin? Have you seen that?

Well, very different, right? I mean, Everything Everywhere All at Once, like super fast-paced, like keep up, we're moving quickly. And then Banshees was like snails pace crawling, but very funny in its way of telling story.

I think part of the Banshees I just enjoyed Colin Farrell's eyebrows. They were just so like expressive the whole time, just like slanted downward and confused. That just made me laugh a part of it.

I didn't have that film on my radar, I'll be honest. And then my husband went and watched it and then he was like, 'It's really good. You need to watch it.' And we sat and I laughed more than I thought I would. And I know it's not built as a comedy, I don't think. Maybe a dark comedy but it is very humorous in its parts too.

It goes back to your relationships piece, finding the connection in your scene work and stuff. It could move at a snail's pace and I won't give any spoilers away, but definitely some interesting parts of friendship and it can move very slowly, but if the connection's there, the chemistry is there, the audience is invested. We the audience are the banshees. That's the thought I'll leave with you without spoiling anything. It's the audience that are the banshees.

Neil, you are a joy to talk to. So much fun. I will continue following your work because I love what you're doing obviously. And thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge. And I hope that our paths cross at a Camp Improv Utopia retreat one day.

Great start. And last question for you, Neil. Before you go, where and how can our listeners find out more about you too?

It'll be 2026 and you're still on 2022.

Lovely. One more question for you. Your website is called lowertheone.com. What does that mean?

Yeah. Outside perspective, I thought it looked great and it had all the information on testimonials on there. So, you sold me, but I'm an easy biased person to sell on this.

Neil, so grateful. I hope to see you at camp maybe next year. Let me know if you end up going because I'll sign up right away. I would love to meet you in person and I'll give you a big hug if you're accepting hugs.

Thank you.

And thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I loved everything that Neil said. The idea of benchmarking and how we don't quite have that benchmarking in improv and maybe that's kind of what I've been struggling with a little bit and so to hear that phrase like that really resonated with me and then also the idea of conflict but in not calling it conflict calling it tension and leaning into that tension accepting our flaws as characters and playing out those flaws. That was a really good tidbit to hear. I appreciated that. And I love the whole discussion on authenticity because I do feel like sometimes that is a platitude. This was a podcast of platitudes today, but in the best way possible, of course. And I like how you phrase it of just authentic being yourself, being animated, expressive, if that is yourself, and that's your way of doing it. If not, you have your own style, but you're not trying to change your style to fit into this public speaking box. You are delivering the presentation and the speech in the best way that you know how to do so. And I think that's really important and that's been one of the biggest lessons I've learned just in my, I will say my 8 to nine year journey of public speaking improvement. I've definitely started at the end of the spectrum where I was just totally afraid and getting up and giving any kind of speech. It was fine with me like I just wanted to get it over with and get it done to now I'm on the other side of the spectrum going okay I want to give this speech but I also want to be myself and I don't want to be too rehearsed and so I guess I fall somewhere in the middle where if the spectrum is like overly rehearsed you know I'm I'm probably maybe 60% there like I certainly practice and organize my thoughts I have my outline I have my slides ready if there are slides But I'm not going to sit there and practice a ton. I'm not going to practice in front of my spouse, my partner, or my mirror. I don't know. I just that doesn't work for me. And I know it does for some. And I think it depends on what the presentation is. Obviously, a TED talk and stuff and other things you might need to know really well. But there's a part of me that just likes to be in the moment and present in the moment. Now, that can get me in trouble because I ramble a lot and I've had to really work on that. I still need to work on that. That is definitely a goal of mine is to be more efficient and effective with my words. Hour 45 podcast. I could definitely keep talking about improv and public speaking and especially just listening to Neil talk about it. I could listen all day. I love what he's doing and I love that we now have a new improv friend in Ireland. I really hope to meet Neil in person and meet him at camp and see him perform because he seems very knowledgeable and experienced and also just it would be super fun to watch him. So, I will let you know when that happens and I think it will. I'll put it out there. It definitely will happen. There were a lot of good tips today on improv in general. If you are an improviser and you perform on stage, lots of good tips there. But also from the public speaking side and I want to ask you to really think about where are you in your public speaking journey. Is there room for improvement? Do you stay tied to the slides a lot? Are you using your slides as a crutch? Are you focusing too much on that graph that you're putting out there? Are you putting all your hopes and dreams into the graphs and charts and animations? I know that statistics and graphs and charts are important, but I think Neil really hit it on the head when he said people don't care about your charts and graphs. And I think we put a lot of emphasis in there. And I'm not saying to take it out. You obviously need to create some credibility and such, but if you have a chart and graph in there, you've got to work on your delivery. How are you engaging the audience with this chart and graph? What's the point of this? What do they need to get out of this chart and graph? Because I can tell you that probably 95% of your audience is looking at that graph and not trying to understand it. If you're in an academic sense talking to the same like-minded people in your industry, maybe they are, but probably not. Usually, when I see a chart or graph, my eyes kind of gloss over because I know I don't have enough time to look at it, too. So, really think about how are you explaining this chart and graph? Is it engaging? Is my message getting across to my audience there? And then also, do you fear Q&A periods? Do you fear being put on the spot? And off-the-cuff questions, how do you handle that? And these are tough questions to answer. And I want to encourage you to authentically answer how you're feeling. Don't say how you should be feeling or how you want to be feeling. How are you really doing with this? And if you're doing great, you're like, I love Q&A. Throw it at me. Fantastic. And if you're not feeling that way, if you're like, Q&A scares me. It keeps me up at night. I worry people are going to put me on the spot and then they're going to find me out as this impostor or whatever. Then let's chat or talk to Neil or find someone else who can help you. I just want to encourage you to get the help you need to help with this fear of Q&A. There are trainings out there. There are skills that you can learn to help you with this. And are you willing to commit to learning the skills and learning how to improve in this area that you don't feel sufficient in? Lots of good thoughts and ideas today. I loved every minute of this podcast. I love the whole podcast journey. Neil and I were talking after we hit the stop record button and just saying how a podcast is a great chronicle of your journey. It really is my audio blog. I'm not going to blog about this. I struggle to journal about anything. I'm definitely not going to do a whole blog series. It's just not my thing authentically. I love other people who do it, but I'm not going to do it. And he was saying that he had his own little podcast years ago where he was going to camp a bunch and he was doing a podcast to keep up with people and talk with them and it chronicled his journey. And I was like, 'Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing here. I love it. And I really love I love connecting with people and I love that this podcast journey has taken me to talk with people internationally, talk with Neil from Ireland. So bring it on. Let's chat with other international folks. Let's get this podcast not only in the US but also in the world. And I think that's the cool thing about technology in general and improv too. There's so many international fests out there and the terminology and the language we use is very similar, but always finding the different cultures of comedy is fun and interesting, too. All right, I will wrap up. I promise. I love the marathon episodes, though. You can definitely get a lot of housework done and walking around your neighborhood done or doing any kind of movement base that you like to. I hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did. Let me know what came up for you. Definitely check out Neil's social media, follow him, check out what he posts. He posts some great tidbits and ideas. And then also you can reach out to me on social media. On Instagram, I'm improvpeaking. I'm on LinkedIn at Dana Gowan. And then you can find my website at improvspeaking.com. I love it. International podcast waters achieved. We did it everyone. Thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting and probably speaking. And go out there and flex your creative thinking. I'll talk to you next time.