Today's CFO afl. 47: Defining Moments van Chris Figee

Good afternoon, nice to be here, looking forward to the conversation.

Yes, Chris Figee, 52 years old, indeed daily life as CFO of KPN. Born and raised, or rather not born but raised in Twente, very close to the German border. Studied economics in Groningen. I'm an investor by origin. First job was as a bond and derivatives trader. From there I went to McKinsey for 10 years, then worked at Achmea and ASR, and now at KPN. Father of four children, three have already left home, one still at home for another 3 years. In my free time I enjoy sailing, going to the gym, reading books, and I like vacations. That's also important. And I'm also a big basketball fan.

Yes, absolutely. I'm a huge fan of the NBA basketball, but the Boston Celtics is really my team. Don't ask why, it just happened that way. I wake up and go to bed with it. I write special blog posts. There are American journalists who only follow that team, I know them now too. I spend a lot of time on it. Do you ever go there? Yes, once or twice a year. It's become a bit of a tour. Sometimes we try to plan our roadshows for shareholders so that the Celtics are playing at home then we can watch.

The atmosphere is much more show. It's much friendlier. In America when you go to a sport you can just compare it to a Feyenoord fan sitting in an Ajax stadium. That's no problem there. You wouldn't do that here so quickly. So it's very welcoming and friendly, but with much more show around it.

Very high. I had seen him coming. I saw the French defenders defended really well, so it was a bit of a lucky shot, but I thought it was really cool. I thought, yes, this has happened, this won't happen again. The seconds ticking away and the French pushed him outside the two-point line and he still shot it in. So I almost touched the ceiling. Very good, very good.

Yes, that came a bit by chance, but that was also the charm. So I got the chance and the invitation to have a conversation with KPN. That took quite a long time due to various complications, but I really saw it as a gift to be able to move to a different sector. I thought my forehead had a stamp saying Financial Services, insurance CFO, so that would probably stay, or banking could also be possible. Then when the KPN opportunity came along, I thought, yes, this is a gift at my 48 to go to a completely different industry, still in my profession, CFO, but a different industry. I found that really a gift, but also exciting because it's an industry I didn't know at all. I really knew nothing about it. But I jumped in with open eyes.

Well, step one was when I got an offer. I got an envelope and it was a special weekend. I had to decide very quickly. I got an envelope with terms of employment and they basically said, yes, we need to know by tomorrow. So first I took a long walk. I didn't open the envelope. I said it will be fine, it's about the job, about the people. Then I went for a walk and then I was sure. So after an hour I called them back and said, I'll sleep on it, but the chance that I won't do it is very small, so assume I will do it. Then I negotiated a longer notice period at ASR because I wanted to leave ASR well. Then I said, from now on I will spend an hour and a half every day reading about telecom, everything that comes my way, not more but also never less. Even on Saturdays and Sundays, every day an hour and a half. I started collecting material. I called consultants, bankers, got things from KPN. I read everything that came my way about that industry. A third of it was not very useful, a third was really helpful, and a third you think, okay, whatever. I did that for about three months, every day an hour and a half reading telecom stuff. From technology to business models, everything. I had no idea what to focus on, so I just started and after a few weeks you zoom in and get a feel. So I indeed read everything, including technology, which is a bit slower for me to grasp, but also about, look, I came from the insurance industry, then you talk about ARPU, average revenue per user. That term doesn't exist in insurance at all. So you also need to learn the vocabulary. You look at analyst presentations from other telcos, read analyst reports, so you plow through everything that comes your way, and then the picture of how the industry works starts to form.

Well, look, if you work at an insurer or a bank, cash is not a problem. Cash is always there. Working capital is not something important. At an insurer, if you need cash, you sell investments and you have cash again. You don't manage cash flow. At a normal company you do. And that was something I really had to think about. Wow, this is really new, that I have to manage cash and working capital. Then I started focusing on that. I didn't realize that when I said yes on that Saturday afternoon. The switch of industry also means a whole different business model, and managing cash and cash flow is something no one in banking and insurance thinks about because it's always there. At a normal company, it's the pivot point of the business model.

I would say, I would always do it. Moving to another industry is extremely refreshing and innovative, that's great. Two: read everything you come across in the first few months, and then it will come to you. Three: you realize when you start that you still have no idea because everyone knows more than you. But if you enter the conversation with the question, how is it, what is the business model, how does this company work, where do we make money, that's a way in that you can apply in every industry. And that's a question that as CFO you can and should ask. If you start a conversation with, nice technology, you know much more about it than I do, but how does it help us make money, generate a return on capital? With that you can basically engage in any conversation as CFO and get quickly to the core for you.

It's nice because everyone knows KPN, so it's a job where at every birthday party someone says, can't you fix the WiFi? That's the standard question you always get. And I always know who to call. No, look, KPN is a Dutch company focused on connectivity, mobile and fixed. We are the largest provider of connectivity in the Netherlands, in mobile telephony, fixed connections, internet. We are the largest roll-out of fiber in the Netherlands. We do that over a large part. We have about almost 7 million customers in the country, 5.5 billion revenue, 2.5 billion EBITDA operational profit, and we invest more than 1.2 billion per year, mainly in fiber, but also in networks. So KPN is essentially a network company, and our service is providing the best connection for the Netherlands. With that we want to help the digitalization of the Netherlands further, but also support the digitalization of consumers. That's KPN in a nutshell.

Yes, KPN used to be an international company. That turned out to be a grand failure. KPN Quest, we had business in Germany, all before my time, all sold off. That was a painful process. Now KPN is for 99.9 percent a Dutch company and that's how it will stay. A strategic focus on the Netherlands, no more excursions.

Yes, unfortunately it didn't become Dutch pride, but you run into the fact that you have to invest enormously in such a network. We invest 1.2 billion in the Netherlands. If you want to go into Germany, multiply that by five or six. So it's a nice ambition, but in practice it's very difficult to cough up that amount of cash. So we are just a Dutch company and there is still plenty to do in the Netherlands.

Absolutely. They are the two big ones, and you have the artist formerly known as T-Mobile, now called Odido, also a competitor. So three players in the market that provide the most connectivity.

No, we have fiber, Ziggo has cable. There is a whole discussion about which technology is best. I'll say here that fiber is best, but my colleague at Ziggo will think differently. They are a cable company, we are a former copper and now fiber company.

I had two: one when I moved from consulting to the business world, and the second from insurance to telecom. If I start with the first: I was a partner at McKinsey, lived in Dubai with my family. My family lived in Dubai, I lived in an airplane because our work area was everything between Egypt and Pakistan. So it was a time with many adventures but also a lot of flying. After 10 years at McKinsey, I had a kind of McKinsey fatigue, and I think McKinsey had a kind of Chris Figee fatigue. It was just over. Then I was thinking about what I wanted to do, and I went from McKinsey Dubai to Achmea in Zeist. That was quite a change. Yes, Zeist, very nice environment, but it wasn't Dubai.

It was an adventure. We got the chance and at a given moment we said, we'll go. I remember sitting with my wife and we said, shall we do it? We went for lunch, took a bottle of wine, and at the end of that bottle we would make the decision. Of course you know then that you'll go. We went, lived there for three years, worked, laughed a lot, saw many things, gained knowledge and experience, had special adventures. Then it was over and we went back. But for me it was the transition from consulting to a real company. And from the flashy, fake Dubai back to the forests of Zeist was a double transition.

Well, if you live in Dubai, the first year you think you're in paradise: sun, beach, no taxes, nice, always good weather. The second year you think there are some strange things in the country. The third year you think, I have to get out of here, I don't want my children to grow up here. It's all very superficial, focused on appearance and materialism. I'm not averse to money, but it's very much on the surface. It's also a bit unsafe because it's a society where there are laws, but they are applied per person. It matters a lot whether you're a local Emirati, a Western expert, or an Indian construction worker. That determines if the law applies to you. And then you think, good that I've seen it, because the world is largely like that, but I don't want to be part of it and I don't want my children to internalize it.

The problem is not that you don't pay tax. In Dubai you can just rent a house with a contract, and the landlord says, it's going to be double. You say, but I have a contract. He says, that may be, but it's going to be double, try me. Then you think, this is a local resident, I'm not going to win this. And then the rent doubles because it suits him. You have no recourse. So you feel the value of what you have in the Netherlands, a society where laws apply to everyone, where there is legal protection and legal certainty. You only realize that when it happens to you.

In that environment you have almost no data. Here in the Netherlands if you consult, you can get loads of data about industries and trends. There it doesn't exist. So you have to invent everything yourself. If someone says how big is the asset management market in Egypt? Nothing or a very thin report. So you have to estimate yourself. You realize that in the Netherlands there is much more data, and in Europe everything is accessible. You fly to Frankfurt for a project and you're home in the evening. For a project in Egypt, you leave in the evening and you come home two days later because of large distances. So you learn to put things in perspective, how well organized everything is here, and how close Europe is.

You learn to ask many questions, to structure, to peel a problem into parts, to solve problems in a group. You are trained to structure and solve problems, to formulate well and sharply, to ask good questions. If you go into an industry you don't know, in a three-month project you quickly get to the bottom of it. So it was a very good school for me. I think it's a good school for everyone, but after so many years it was done. I wanted to go to the other side. But you learn a lot. McKinsey was an intense school, but it brought me a lot.

I think I learned to work hard, to make choices about where to spend your time, and also to listen much better before making a decision. People listen too little before making a decision. I think that's true. In large companies, people often take a stronger position early. One thing a consultant doesn't do is make decisions; they advise. So you have to learn to take a decision and stand by it. At the same time, in large corporates, the one who takes the toughest decision and stands up on the podium speaks. Sometimes it goes very quickly and is short-sighted. So you learn as a consultant to have that balance. For me it was cathartic to make a transition where you have that listening and asking questions, and then you have to really form an opinion because you are the one receiving the advice. So giving advice is not so difficult; receiving advice and living with the shadow of your own decision is much more exciting. The trick is to take that decision deliberately but also ensure you listen. I sometimes meet people who go very quick and short, and people who get their position by making quick decisions without listening. You want to find that balance.

I can take decisions quite well. In my previous job they said, be careful what you put in front of him because before you know it he's made a decision. But I try to ask many questions. I tell my people, look, I'm paid to sometimes make a decision. If it goes well, I made it; if it goes wrong, I made it too. But I want all pros and cons. So it's your task to help me get all pros and cons, then it's up to me to weigh them. That is my job. The weighing I make may be different from how you would do it. That's the sad fate of my job. But I need you to hear all pros and cons. So I consciously check, have I seen and heard everything? Then I say, okay, weighing that, my decision would be this, for this reason. Then I let a silence fall. Look what happens now. Does someone say, you're absolutely crazy, or do they say, I understand, or I had a different weighing but I see what you do. So I try to explain my weighing, and while talking, the funny thing is, you hear your own logic once more.

The funny thing is that the first time at such a moment, the feeling of 'I have to show I'm tough' prevails, to be honest. Only the second or third time it becomes different. So the first time you think, I need to conquer my place, show that I can take a decision, a bold step. Only around the third or fourth time, the process forms where you think, actually, I am who I am and I shouldn't lose what I've built over the years.

Yes, that realization came when I was really the ultimate responsible CFO. When I started at Achmea as head of strategy and M&A, you still have a boss. It's more interesting when you're CFO. I thought, damn, the buck stops here. You can look around, but there is no one else except the CEO who says, friend, this is your job. So I experienced that when I became CFO. The first month I thought, oh man, now it really stops with me, I have to do it. I can consult with colleagues, with the CEO, but in the end he will say, it's your meter, your profession, you get paid for it. So I found that exciting when I first became CFO.

No, I don't lie awake. Never. I had one time I lay awake because of a very big risk that eventually didn't materialize at one of my companies. I thought, oh man, if this goes wrong. It was something from a past, a tax issue from a gray past that suddenly landed on our plate and could have been very big. Eventually it went away and we got a zero assessment. But then I thought, yes, this is really big, this can't go wrong. If it goes wrong, it hits the company and everyone will remember the name Figee in combination with this thing. That happened once. But otherwise I can always set it aside. If I can't, I go exercise in the evening. An hour at Sportcity does wonders, just hanging on some equipment with music, let my thoughts go, or go for a walk. Then I'm over it.

It is better. You get a better decision, and you also bring your people along. Your people around you feel heard. They say, we have arguments, and sometimes it's a kind of Solomon's judgment you have to make. One wants left, the other wants right, that happens regularly on all fronts. Then making explicit which decision you make and why, and what your weighing is, and how you weigh the pros and cons differently than they do, that makes everyone say, okay, I understand, I feel heard, and I support it. If you don't do that, everyone says, well, it will be, I throw it in the hat and then something comes out, and you never know what. That's what you did the first few times, you have that tendency to show that you're a tough CFO. But it's actually much stronger to listen and take everyone along.

I had a vague idea that I might want to become a CFO, but you don't really have a picture until you're in it. I thought I wanted to go to a real company, a corporate, and from there I'll see. I thought the financial column would probably suit me. At the same time, I was a consultant, so I had never run a financial reporting process. I did have some knowledge of IFRS, but not a lot. Parts of the profession I knew, certainly the treasury side, I was a bond investor, so the capital markets side felt familiar. Performance management also felt familiar. The hard finance side, I had no idea. I learned that later. So I started in strategy and M&A and corporate control, so I was group controller with strategy and M&A in one function. From there more reporting activity came and I learned that part. But I didn't have a clear picture of that part.

I didn't know exactly. I thought CFO probably suits me because I can build on my capital market side. But I didn't have a very concrete picture except that I had ambition and wanted to end up in the board. If you ask me why, yes, that's a good question. That kind of ambition, you want to achieve that status. So that ambition was there, and I thought, we'll see what the best path is and if it's even possible.

Yes, step one is you want more impact. I thought the consulting world was over. I want to be at the controls myself, at the wheel. And two, the world was changing. At the end of the financial crisis, the world didn't need bankers and consultants, the world needed people who do things. So I wanted to be part of that stream of people who realize things. That was primary the choice to move from consulting to a corporate. I thought strategy, M&A, and corporate control are nice landing places, and the finance function is a neat place to land. From there the ambition to become CFO arose.

I had a few choices. I also had a job at an asset manager in America. I could go to Achmea in Zeist and an asset manager in Seattle. Seattle said, for the weather you don't have to do it, both for taxes maybe. But ultimately I chose for the people. I think you often choose for people in your career, or you must choose for people. People you work with, where you can work together well. It was Gerard van Olphen, then CFO, and I had a conversation with him. I felt that if he becomes my boss, I feel very comfortable, I want to do this.

I had the feeling that I looked at the world in a similar way. I found him approachable, substantial, and I could learn a lot from him. What I found very special, a funny story, I had a meeting with him. I flew in from Dubai to Zeist, landed, had showered in the hotel. Then his son got sick. I thought, damn, I flew in, he's sick. I'll probably get the HR manager now. But his secretary said, Gerard knows you flew in especially, let's meet at Motel de Wittebergen. He doesn't go to the office because if he goes, he'll stay all day, he doesn't want that because he's sick. But he knows you flew in, so meet at Motel de Wittebergen on the A1. Then I thought, if someone does this, he's sick but still comes to his appointment because he knows I flew in, that was a sign for me. I want to work for that man. That was an important thing for me, it gave a personal commitment. And it worked out exactly that way. Maybe that was the decisive moment.

Oh, absolutely in the beginning. How do you deal with it? You speak it out. So one thing is to say, okay, if I sense that someone makes that point, I say, I have the feeling that you think I'm a know-it-all. So tell me where I'm wrong, explain what I don't see. So you engage in conversation. Sometimes if it's very exaggerated, I make it big. If you make something big, the other will always make it small. I say, look, I think you really find me a very annoying know-it-all. So explain it to me. Then the other always says, well, it's not that bad. So I consciously learned that. I thought, I'll make it very big, then look what he does, and then the other will always tone it down to your face. Almost no one says yes, you're an ass. So I speak out where I feel it, go into conversation, sometimes use a trick to make it bigger so the other makes it smaller, then try to return to the content: what is your problem with what I think and say. But you must speak it out.

Well, sometimes it's theory versus practice, that's one. Or the idea that you think you're smart but we're also smart. Or that it doesn't work that way in our practice. Or the ambition is set too high. Then I say, okay if my ambition is too high, it's often a matter of time. Maybe it won't happen in a year but in two years. And why would the ambition be too high? So first we need to establish if we have the same ambition. It's a question of whether the organization can handle it. That's often a fair reflection. You can burden an organization with many things, and if you throw too much on an organization, complexity increases and you make more costs and lose priorities.

Yes, and that's also, as a consultant or former consultant, you think you can oversee everything. On paper everything is manageable. In practice, people have to do things and it becomes complicated. So you establish, okay, fine, it won't work now. It won't work in a year, but maybe in two or three years it can.

My learning is that in large companies, there’s an enormous amount of knowledge in the organization that you have to extract. And it's actually true that if you don't know anything, you need to—the bulk of it, I mean everything, all the information is available; it's just within the organization. And you have to extract it. So when I was sort of a deputy CFO and also a CFO, I would just go directly. I could email someone three or four levels below me and say, 'I need this and this, just send me an email back with two bullet points, that's enough. I don't want you to discuss it in your management team, I don't want a three-page memo, I just want to know A, B, or C.' What I learned is that in large companies, there's a lot of knowledge everywhere, and the trick is to extract that knowledge, and to be willing to tap into it and just go for it. Yes, but that also means communicating very directly with people at lower levels who maybe don't report directly to you, but just using their knowledge. I remember when I arrived at ASR, I wanted to know something, so I sent an email to someone who might be a few levels below me. That person thinks, 'I'm getting an email from the CFO, so I'll drop everything and write a memo.' But I didn't want a memo at all. I just sent an email and I said, 'I'd appreciate it if you could reply with four bullet points by the end of the day. You can CC your boss if you want, but you don't have to. I just want this information from you.' So I try to communicate directly with the person who knows and they can always approach me directly.

I don't always coordinate that. Then I think, you know, it's not about politics, I just want to know how things are. So I often CC people, and sometimes I think, 'Oh well, I just need a specific person.' It's not that I'm going around you, but I know if I ask you a question and you ask someone else, and then that person asks yet another person, you're four days further down the line. And then you're keeping people busy. Yes, that's a waste of time. But the culture has to be shaped so that it can happen without any fuss. People know now that you can just get an email from the CFO and he says, 'I see something about payment behavior on mobile phones, can you give me a table showing the number of defaulters over the past three months?' Someone has that information, so I can just send it directly to that person rather than first going through the organization. Yes, that's true. If you yourself are apolitical, then it becomes apolitical automatically.

Yes, the second one was the move to KPN, with that envelope. I had a sort of 'financial services' stamp on my forehead and suddenly it was telco. They came to you and said, 'Chris, we have something beautiful for you.' There was a headhunter who said we have an interesting opportunity, and the interesting thing was... I actually said at first, 'This has no point, I know nothing about telecom.' So I canceled the first meeting. I said, 'I can come, but then I'll waste an hour of my time and you'll waste an hour of yours, because this isn't going to work since I have no idea about telecom.' And I was at ASR then, and the situation was such that I couldn't really leave. I said, 'I can't leave, I'll only be available in six months at the earliest.' And she said, 'Well, we understand, but couldn't you just come by once?' So I did, knowing it would probably just be an hour of our lives we wouldn't get back. But it turned out to be a very nice conversation, and that's how it went further.

No, it wasn't on my radar. I literally thought, 'I'm in a tunnel, this is my path, I'm in financial services and that'll probably be the rest of my career.' I was still busy at ASR with plenty to do. And then this came out of left field, and you start thinking, 'Yes, this is an interesting step, it broadens me a lot. I think I did a good job at ASR, and if I also do well at KPN, then I can say I can do anything—insurance and telco—so I can handle any industry.' So at some point, a thought started forming in my head: 'Maybe this is interesting after all.' But initially, it was like, 'You know what? I'm a tennis player, and someone comes along and wants me to play basketball.' It's also a ball, it also has finesse, but just a different kind.

Yes, exactly. And were you on a shortlist at KPN themselves? Did KPN give a shortlist of people to approach?

I think the reason was that there was a headhunter I knew longer, Mr. A from the firm, and Mr. B I also knew longer. They probably discussed internally and said, 'You should ask that CFO from ASR because I know him from previous discussions.' So that's how it came about. And after that first meeting, you were enthusiastic?

It was the idea of renewal—it's actually quite a gift to go into a completely different industry and be able to read up on it, dive into it. The enthusiasm came from that. And also, KPN is of course a wonderful company, a household name. Everyone has an opinion about KPN, which is sometimes tiring but also fun. It's a source of pride to be part of it. Everyone knows it and has an opinion about it. So it was a combination: a very cool company with a great image and history, and two, it's not an easy company. It's hard work, complex issues, and especially back then, KPN was known as a company where something was always going on. And I personified that: I can broaden and renew myself.

No, I first went for a walk. I thought, 'I need to do this without alcohol this time. I need to go for a walk and organize my thoughts.' And during that walk, did you reach a certain insight?

So there was no fear or hesitation about the switch? It was exciting for sure. I found it exciting. I thought, 'Will this work? Will I get to know this industry? Will I land in the team?' So it's not that it wasn't exciting. But step one is, I want this. And more than that, actually, I asked myself, 'Can I explain this to someone else? If I were sitting here or talking to someone, what story would I tell?

Exactly. When you explain it in your head, you're also telling yourself. So the story I would use to justify the step to someone else—how would I explain to the people at ASR that I'm going to a different company? That wasn't an easy conversation because I was really attached to ASR. So rehearsing that conversation in your head, rationalizing, make you live through that decision one more time. And after that, is it exciting? Yes, absolutely, because it's very different. I was in a world where I thought, 'Here I am, I'm satisfied with ASR, it's going well, it doesn't even take much effort. I'm in a good flow.' So you are leaving a safe path where you think, 'This could go wrong, but I feel very comfortable here,' to go into a completely new industry, which is really exciting.

Yes, at ASR, they made me CFO, so they gave me the chance to become CFO with full responsibility. I was 42 or 43 then, so they showed a lot of trust in me. I was really attached to that company, and I still am. I still talk to former ASR colleagues privately. So I felt part of the family, and leaving that was a big step.

Yes, they said, 'You're a jerk, but I understand it.' That's the only appropriate reaction. And it's also a compliment in a way, not that they called me a jerk, but the fact that they said that shows how important I was to the company. I felt they said, 'It's really a shame, we'll miss you, but I understand why you're making this step.'

No, no. But at KPN, I worked there for four weeks and then COVID hit, so we went home. It was a very special start. The first day at KPN was always a bit awkward because everything is new. But it was fun; you absorb all the novelty. The first day you're mainly busy making sure your laptop works, that you have an iPad that works, your phone works, and everything is in order. And at KPN, that all works within five minutes—good phone, that's good. So your first day you're sitting there a bit awkwardly, looking around, thinking, 'Okay, everything works, now what do I do?' Luckily, I had a very good secretary, whom I still have, who said, 'We've made an introduction program for you, and we're going to follow it. So we're going to spend a day with a technician, a day in a store, those kinds of things, and you'll speak with a lot of people.' But after four weeks, it was cut short because of COVID. The first day of every new job, you start enthusiastically, but after an hour and a half you think, 'Okay, now what? What will I do the rest of the day?' That happens in any new job. Then the introduction program unfolds, and you soon get busy.

Yes, I went with a technician. That was hilarious because the man had no idea who I was. He said, 'You're some guy from headquarters, fine, come along.' So I went with him to help install TVs. I helped carry and show things. What was funny was that he said, 'I'm going to smoke a cigarette, I'm way ahead of schedule. If I get too far ahead, they'll adjust my norm time and I'll have to work harder. So I'll have a smoke to get back to a normal rhythm and keep the norm time down.' He had no idea who I was. I actually found it sympathetic and very human. So I did go with a technician and worked in a store. It's very good to see the real work. It's nice to read about it, but to see it in person is different. When you have a new customer to connect, he would have to go to a street cabinet, flip a switch, go to a house to measure a fiber line, and then connect a TV. You see how much work it is to connect a customer. As a CFO, it's easy to see the number one of the 4 million or one of the 6 million broadband connections, but behind each number is a customer with a need, who wants good internet at home and good TV. There's real work behind it. It's very manual work and also complicated. If a customer says, 'I have three TVs, one here, one there, and I want my Wi-Fi like this,' it's a puzzle. So going along is important. Actually, I should do it more often, maybe once a year as a refresher, just to know what it's like on the work floor. Because a year later, it's still necessary to connect a customer. And it's also good for yourself to remember, 'Oh yes, this is it.' After being a CFO for years, that can drift away. Once, when I worked in a store, a customer came in with a question about the latest iPhone 15. I thought, 'I don't know that.' So the only thing I could do was get coffee. So I got coffee. You realize you don't know much about the daily practice. The idea that you, as a CFO, are often far from the daily practice is an important insight. It also makes you humble.

Yes, exactly. And looking back on your switch, what did you have to adjust the most as the CFO of KPN?

Do you also look at KPN from your own origin as an investor? Partly. Investor relations is my portfolio, and I'm good at it because I used to be an investor myself. I speak their language. When I'm in London or New York, I notice I understand the person on the other side. Not everyone enjoys that—some CEOs and CFOs find it a chore. But I like it because I grew up in that world. So I also look at KPN as a stock and what our equity story is, and how I package the story. I think I'm good at that because I was an investor myself for several years.

Well, it starts with content. You can polish things for a quarter, maybe two quarters with numbers, but after that, you can't. So your operational business must be in order, and investors see through it anyway. I found it funny in the last quarterly report when you said there were some one-off items, so back to reality: the actual result is a bit lower when you exclude those one-offs, because we can't count on them in Q3. I say that both internally and externally. And I notice that when you do that, you build credibilities. You're not trying to make it better than it is; you tell the real story, and then they believe you more. One thing I started doing is: KPN is a subscription company, so it's predictable. So at KPN, I know roughly what the next quarter will bring. I set up a tight outlook process. For example, when I publish the Q2 figures, I already indicate what Q3 will be, and with Q3, I tell what Q4 will be. The funny thing in our industry is that by doing that, you create a lot of confidence. The investor says, 'Okay, I heard Q2, and now I already know what the next quarter will be. When it comes out, he says, 'Okay, apparently they are very good at KPN, they know what's coming, and it comes out.' And if you ever have a less good quarter, you can announce it in advance, and then it comes in more calmly. I know as an investor, it's very nice not to be surprised, to hear in time what will happen the rest of the year. I know that as an investor, and as a CFO, I can apply it.

No big surprises. But positive ones? Yes. Very skilled people, people who are really into their field. There are people who have worked at KPN for a long time and know a lot about the business. It's interesting that we've had quite a few CFOs here who had their roots at KPN. KPN is a kind of training ground. I say, 'That's okay. I don't mind at all if people leave KPN. If they leave well, they become ambassadors for KPN. So I think it's only good. I don't try to keep anyone who wants to leave. If you come to me and say you want to leave, you've already made that choice. Then I only hope you have a good place. Or I say to someone, 'If you think you want to leave, come to me and we'll talk about it. I'll give you advice whether I think the step you're considering is wise or not, from your perspective. If I think you have a great opportunity outside, go for it. I won't talk you out of it. But come to me. And if you want to leave and do something else, I know many people by now, so I can make an introduction for you somewhere. It's also not a bad thing to be a finance training ground if it leads to many KPN ambassadors in the Netherlands.'

Well, I say it from their perspective. 'I wouldn't do this yet. I would first make this intermediate step.' And I say that sincerely to help that person. So it usually comes across that way. If you want to leave and do something else, fine. I'll help you think. I know enough headhunters, enough colleagues. I'm happy to introduce you. But you have to make a step that fits. It could be that your ambition is too low—then you need to reach higher. Or it's too high. 'This is not something I would do.' Or I had someone who went to a very small corporate finance boutique. I said, 'You're 27. In this phase of your career, you should go to something with a reputation and a brand where you can learn. What you're going to now is an end-stage move to a corporate finance boutique. I know them all, I'll call them and introduce you.' People find that shocking, but it helps because I approach it from their perspective.

Well, I once read an interview in the Washington Post, I think. They interviewed 50 CEOs across America: what makes a good CEO? Was there a common thread? There wasn't really one. They came from all backgrounds, all social classes, all kinds of education. They couldn't find a standard path. Then they dug deeper: what are the character traits? There were three: you must be authentic and honest. People smell bullshit from a mile away. That's number one. Two: a good leader goes where it's difficult, where the problems are. Good people always dive into problems where success isn't guaranteed. And three: you have to work hard. If it were easy, someone else would have done it already. I read that and I took it to heart. At KPN, that worked too: if you make KPN look better than it is, colleagues and journalists can smell that from a mile away. So just say how it is, choose your words, but make it as authentic as possible. Two: there's always some trouble somewhere. Dive into it. Don't run away from it. It's also your job to solve problems. And three: yes, it's hard work. If you want to go further, you have to put in the hours, because if it were easy, someone else would do it. I would love to work four hours a day and then hit the golf course, but unfortunately, until I win the lottery or suddenly get an inheritance, my sad fate is to work. So if you have ambition, you have to work hard, because the easy stuff is already done. And all those quarterly reports falling in the vacations—that's another thing. That's one thing you don't realize as a CFO: you can't be on vacation when everyone else is on vacation because you have quarterly reports. Q1 figures fall in the May vacation, Q2 in the summer vacation, Q3 in the autumn vacation. So you need luck with whether you're in region north, central, or south for school vacations. That's the sad fate of a CFO: you can only leave after the figures are out. And we are happy that we are quite fast.

Yes, I still think that's fun. But it didn't happen. No, it didn't. I'm quite good at writing. In my life, I've often entered competitions where you had to submit a slogan, and I often won prizes. So I thought it was really fun. But I ended up in the financial path. But do you still use that as a CFO, with creative sentences and slogans in the annual report? In the annual report, not so much, but I try to do what I used to do at Aegon. We always wrote a letter to the supervisory board. The supervisory board gets a report and a letter. I said, 'I'll write that letter. It's my text.' At ASR, I always put a song lyric at the top. I would scroll through Spotify lists until I found a quote from a song that I put above the letter. It was my sport. At KPN, we don't do that; it's more formal. But I still enjoy choosing sentences that, with a twist or a joke, reflect the picture. What makes you say KPN is more formal? It is. When I did that at KPN, they said, 'Let's not do that.' I started doing it, but it stopped. It's a letter from an insurer—okay, so it goes out. But recently, I had a business unit that was performing really well, and they came with a budget. I said, 'Okay, with you, it's a tunnel at the end of the light.' Everyone thinks, but it's true. As a CFO, you need the ability to be irritatingly inspiring or inspiringly irritating—it doesn't matter. It's important that you can handle numbers, but giving words to what's happening is very important. Sometimes with a slightly sarcastic undertone helps to convey a message. So I think it's quite important for a CFO to be good with language. The message only sinks in when people start thinking about what it says. So how you tell it matters. Those numbers scroll past people, but how you tell it and what one-liner you add makes a difference. So maybe I'm not a copywriter, but I try to indicate with a kind of message or phrase what I think of the numbers or the situation.

I have a few things. My former boss at KPN in the Netherlands once said, 'Zoom in, zoom out.' When do you want to know everything, and when do you not need to know the details? You have to ask yourself that question very often. You have a project, a problem, something: when do I want to know everything and when not? And you have to consciously ask yourself that question. By doing that, you start dealing with it. Sometimes you say, 'You know what, this is fine. I don't need to know everything.' I get a PowerPoint with many slides: I'll flip through it. And sometimes you have to say, 'I have a meeting tomorrow, someone sends me a document with many slides. You know what? I'm not going to read it. I'll just not think about it. I'll take the time to think about what I think is important. And then I spend half an hour walking without having read anything, thinking, 'Okay, I've really thought about it.' Then I read that document, and I go through it very quickly because I know where to zoom in. So it's about taking time to think and not getting overwhelmed by all the material you receive every day or all the emails. Zoom in, zoom out. And I have an active to-do list. I make a to-do list for myself once, well, twice a year, of what's going on. I just type it out, a document of five pages with all the things I should be dealing with or need to work on. I keep that long list with me always. A few times a week, I pick it up, flip through it, cross some things off, and think, 'Oh yes, this was still here.' So an active to-do list helps. And I make sure that every day, what I always do is print out my agenda. My entire agenda is printed, and everything that comes up I write down what I still need to do. My day is not over until I've done all that. If I'm in a meeting and someone says, 'Oh, I need to ping so-and-so, or ask this, or send that email,' I write it down on that agenda—my daily notebook—and I only stop when I've done that. Then my day is clean and I can sleep peacefully. So for me, it's about working through the daily to-do list, having a long list that I periodically review to remind myself of what I was all busy with, so I don't forget. That also includes proactivity because those are your own priorities. So you set them yourself. And then you regularly ask yourself, 'Where do I need to dive in, and when not?' And also take the time to just think. In this job, you can easily get sucked into emails, documents, meetings. You can be scheduled all day, and in the evening you have a pile of emails and documents in your inbox, so you almost forget to think. You can become reactive because you're driven by all the content you get. That's good advice for listeners to avoid being lived by the schedule.

It's not mine; it's from Robert van de Kraat, the future CFO. I can imagine he said that. But I want to thank you for your time and attention, and for sharing your story. And also thank Robert for the questions. It was fantastic to be here.