Hensoldt-Chef Dörre: „Wir, die Rüstungsindustrie, waren so ein bisschen die Schmuddelkinder“

Yes, it was indeed a very disruptive step to leave the Bundeswehr after 21 years. I admit that it wasn't easy for me. I was actually doing well in the Bundeswehr. So it wasn't really about leaving the Bundeswehr, but about embarking on something new. And I think that's the point: it was relatively easy for me to manage this transition. I was really lucky to have a very charismatic manager at my side who brought me into the company Frequentis at that time, and with his support, and also in that family-owned company, initially in Austria, with a more international orientation, a bit further away from my old turf, I learned to walk as a manager. And step by step, I made my way through the hotbed of the economy.

Well, you can't say by itself. The demand is there, and that's actually good. I think what's also good is that, as is often quoted, we in the defense industry were a bit of the black sheep. I remember that from my time in the Bundeswehr, when my wife sometimes had to be ashamed when she went to buy bread as the wife of a soldier when we moved to a new village. So the societal attitude toward the defense industry has changed. Everyone knows that it is important for the security of our country. But I also say very clearly, with this increasing demand, there is a lot of work for us. I say to my employees: growing pains also hurt. On the one hand, we have to scale our capacity considerably today, which involves a lot of effort, work, discipline, and creativity. And what you must never forget in a phase like this where it's booming, it could be over again quickly. So sustainability is a topic, also for me. And at the same time, thinking about the future, strategically transforming ourselves—we are doing that too. It's a field of tension that challenges all of us significantly.

Yes, I think the important thing is to strengthen these capacities in a measured way. For me, a key point is that we must position ourselves organically for the topics, but what is also very important is to think in partnerships, to build capacities within an overall system. We have an internal discussion about what our core capabilities are, and we will certainly build those organically, but we also try to rely more on external partners and thus secure capacity from the market and through partners. And then I think it's very important to make our growth strategy more resilient going forward. More resilient means working with our customers in the market. Today we are about 70% dependent on the Bundeswehr, so I immediately set an internationalization initiative. Making it more resilient also means growing in the value chain, not just selling products and sensors that are our core business today. There is also a large area in service where we are scaling, with other models: training, simulation, but also operation of data infrastructures and similar. And I think that is the recipe for positioning ourselves for the future even in a phase of high demand.

Yes, we do build not only radars, if I may say so, but also optoelectronic sensors, and then the whole continuum of electromagnetic warfare, as it is called in NATO jargon. They are indeed, as you say, we are at core a pure-play sensor house, as we like to call it, focused on security and defense technology. But there are markets we are close to. For example, we also make sensors for the police, for aircraft and helicopters of the police, to support security in the country. We make high-tech optics for lithography for chip manufacturing. So there are some niches where we also operate in other markets, and we need to cultivate those to be well positioned for a phase that may come someday—though we all wish for peace, I believe it won't come so quickly—so we can continue our growth in a new environment.

Well, we do go in, but I think, as you mentioned at the beginning, the important point is to prepare our employees so that they are open to working on these other topics. They experience, day in and day out—we see this in surveys—extremely high pressure. So to take the freedom to also look to the future is actually the great challenge. We have to communicate that in the change process, and we are on a good path.

Well, we have a strong foundation within Hensoldt because we build on a long tradition of technology, engineering competence, and innovation power. That is in the DNA of our company, if I may say so. The decisive point, I think, is this change. I experienced it myself: up until the 1990s, most projects we did with the Bundeswehr—and I think this applies similarly to other European armed forces—were development projects where you actually had the products you maintained as a company more or less paid for by these customers. Then there was a shift, which took place during my time in the ministry. The then Inspector General Schneiderhan said we should actually have an 80% solution quickly available on the market rather than going into such long development cycles. So now the challenge is that we need an intensive dialogue—and thank God it is now emerging again, but it was absent for many years—with our customers to understand where they want to go. That's one thing. Second, we need the capital, and we will have to take that into our own hands. For Hensoldt, I always say when we talk about defense budgets and similar, in a period of about three years, we are putting half a billion into capitalized technology development to drive our products forward. And this entrepreneurial spirit, I think, characterizes us in this time. And a very important point, the last decisive point for me, is also digitalization. And as I said, internationalization is the second medium-term priority I have set. We need a partner network that goes beyond academia, where we offer scholarships, where we really bring in innovation from outside. And we need to cooperate in the ecosystem—unfortunately, as you heard in the intro, in this world of alpha animals, it's not always easy. We have to cooperate more. I once said, 'Trust no one who says they can do it all alone.' We coined that within Thales with my boss there. We have to come together, and then I think we will achieve innovation.

Yes, we of course ensure that it is under antitrust and such regulations. It works when we are complementary—that's the decisive point in this phase. We talk a lot with startups that do truly outstanding innovation, whether in artificial intelligence or drone technology. And as you said earlier, this hype, this demand that is currently in the market, naturally awakens dreams that they will become the big system house. I have my doubts, with 35 years of experience in this segment. So here too the principle applies: cobblers, stick to your last. Everyone should focus on what they do best, and then in a collaboration... And that's the decisive point today: the capability as such is no longer the individual sensor, the individual platform, but the overall system. And the various players must work together. If it is complementary, then I think it is also justifiable under legal regulations.

Well, I can't judge that; I'm not in Toulouse to see it. But I believe that the approach as such—and we see this discussion today in European consolidation, where we dream of these huge system houses—I think it's clear that Hensoldt's success story is characterized by being platform-independent. We have really achieved decoupling from the aircraft and helicopters that exist at Airbus, also in a partnership approach with all platform houses, whether in the air, with shipyards at sea, or on land with tanks and combat vehicles, so that we can work together. And when you look at the system houses, broadly set up system houses or platform houses, there is always a lot of what I would call steel construction, shipyard industry. Finding that balance between digitalization—extremely fast innovation cycles—and simultaneously serving such an overall portfolio is very difficult. So that is Hensoldt's success story. And if you allow me at the end, it actually goes back to the heritage: Airbus includes the Carl Zeiss heritage. So we are still in Oberkochen in this Optronics Valley, and those were the great pioneers of optronics: Moritz Hensoldt and Carl Zeiss. And Moritz Hensoldt, I heard here and there, was supposed to be the better engineer but lacked a bit of commercial sense. That's why the tradition arises—we got this from the Zeiss acquisition that later Hensoldt took over the naming rights. So for me it's a smart approach, and not entirely a cheat because this is an important part of our portfolio: the optronics.

That is indeed a topic. With complex systems, having clear responsibilities is important. In my past, I have experienced one or two difficult defense projects and have always found that the industrial setup—the contractor structure—often brings considerable difficulties. But it drives us, because as I said earlier, resilient growth through products, through the value chain, and ultimately services—that is what drives us. We are reorganizing as of January 1st and we will have two divisions that make products and one division that does services. We will have a spearhead division called Multi-Domain Solutions, which exactly addresses what you said. It will strongly accompany our growth in the value chain, system integration. And I think if we at least reduce the interfaces to two, one is the platform and the other is really the system technology that is now heavily driven by software, then we need a good partnership between the platform carrier and the system technology. And that is growing in importance and gives us the justification to be a strong player in the market.

I wouldn't actually call it complicated. I think the Bundeswehr is crucial for the success story of the Bundeswehr—we are very grateful for that, because not only is the Bundeswehr our customer, but the Federal Republic of Germany, represented by KfW, holds 25.1% of the shares in Hensoldt. This identity as a national champion is important to us and will be a large part of our future. How do we deal with it? We clearly plan for 50%? No, I mentioned we want about 30% in Europe. But regarding the Bundeswehr: it's an anchor investment, an anchor of security and foundation for the future of Hensoldt. However, we then want about 30%—that is the ambition I set as the third priority, after operational excellence and digitalization, which is internationalization. We want to do 30% of our business in Europe because we see the boom there. You see the Sky Shield initiative, the joint European defense umbrella called by Chancellor Scholz, where many nations are joining because air defense is not a task for a single country in Europe; the countries are so small they have to think bigger. With the war in Ukraine, we see that over 20 of the 32 NATO partners have already increased their defense budget to over 2% of GDP. So we clearly say we are going there. Then we have another 20% that we want to do globally, and we have focuses. Today I believe we are seeing demand there; we are not at zero, we are in the middle of this internationalization. And for the 20%, we want to strongly orient ourselves toward the foreign policy guidelines of the German government and Europe. There are markets—I just came back from Delhi, India, as part of the Chancellor's delegation. That's a huge market that can support us in many ways. Singapore, Asia Pacific, now also with Bundeswehr exercises, there are many potentials.

I believe definitely. First, the USA is also a focus market within this internationalization initiative. We have our own subsidiary. Before I came from India, I was in the USA and visited the largest defense exhibition, AUSA, a big army show in Washington. This market is not easy. I say from my time at Frequentis, I was inside director in the US subsidiary. You have to meet certain security standards and regulations, and you have the very dominant, globally dominant US primes. So for me, two ingredients must be right: you must enter the US market with a partnership approach. So my visit to the fair was also marked by discussions with the big players: General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin, RTX. You have to look for ways to come together. And second, you have to deliver high technology that is differentiated; you have to serve niches that don't exist in the USA. And we do that: we deliver the laser range finders for the Abrams tanks. We are very proud of that. That is European, German technology that is unique and that we bring into central US weapons systems. Then we want to continue shaping our market access in the USA.

I see the challenge primarily in quantity. Over the 30 years of the peace dividend—I experienced it myself, you mentioned my Bundeswehr past, I was an air defender—we had a three-layered air defense belt in Germany that was gradually abolished, until we only had homeopathic doses of air defense, more for object protection. If we look at tanks, aircraft, ships, we have really reduced them to a minimum. The challenge now is to achieve adequate quantity in a short time with the growing threat. But we will probably never achieve the form of actual war economies that China, Russia, and North Korea produce. So the second challenge is quality, and here I come back to what I said: I believe we have the puzzle pieces, the pearls, the diamonds, the gemstones in the portfolios of many German and European companies. But we must be able to combine them in a partnership approach into a system-of-systems, because the decisive factor—and this is embedded in software-defined defense—is situational awareness, which I get through the interplay of information, through the networking of systems. It is the decision advantage that I ultimately gain through artificial intelligence.

The change in awareness has begun, I would summarize it like that, and it hasn't been stopped again. So definitively not. I see the Zeitenwende perhaps differently than others: the glass is truly half full. We have strong growth; we reported a record order backlog of 6.5 billion euros at the half-year, which is almost three times our annual sales volume. That is very strongly attributable to investments from the special fund of the Bundeswehr, which is closely linked to the Zeitenwende. We also see that in procurement, including procurement with support from the Federal Republic of Germany for Ukraine, we have gone into the fast lane here and there, and have also broken up the crusty armament processes that were mentioned in the intro. But one must not forget that for several decades it was a different world where time played no role. You cannot turn such a system around overnight. So now it is important to stay the course. And above all, it is important to understand the long-term dimension and planning security for us as a business, and to bring sustainability into the Zeitenwende and its implementation. So we have come a large part of the way, but there is still a long and rocky road ahead of us, and we must not lose the strength to continue on the path we have already taken.

I definitely notice it. There are one or two, when I see our general meeting, which we hold as a listed MDAX company, we get great feedback from the private individuals, the citizens who also invest. It even happened to me on the street, recognized for Hensoldt, that someone said thank you for the contribution you make for the Federal Republic of Germany. So that is there. We see it in the number of applicants; we actually receive many unsolicited applications from young people. I have two sons myself, 26 and 28, so this generation that is much discussed, but meaningfulness is, I believe, a driving momentum for them also in career choice and choice of employer. We notice that. We have a high influx. As a growing company, that is of course very important. Chefsache.

Yes, I brought the Clausewitz Medal. This is an honorary medal awarded annually by the Clausewitz Society at the Bundeswehr Command and Staff College for the General Staff course, for one of the participants who wrote the best thesis. The General Staff course of the Bundeswehr is a two-year course; you can compare it to an assessment center or something well-known in the business world. Part of the curriculum is that you have to write a thesis on a topic. They are evaluated, and at the end there is a committee to select the best work. My thesis was on the topic: the significance of the 'War for Talent' – a slogan coined by McKinsey in the late 2000s or the 1990s. What is the significance of this War for Talent for the Bundeswehr?

Yes, I would say, and I don't want to be too pathetic, but for me the medal stands a bit for the zenith of my Bundeswehr career. It is a beautiful memory of the first 21 years of my career. It has for me primarily a glorious character, but also a cautionary one, as is usual with medals – they have two sides. The positive, shining side is that it stands for an intellectual high achievement that I, I'll say proudly, accomplished. That is important to me because I define myself very strongly through personality, analytical skills. I am a computer scientist, less inclined to pathos. So to write such a thesis was something to be proud of. It was presented by the Federal President Johannes Rau; my family, my parents were there. That was a wonderful moment. And this medal is associated with being immortalized on a bronze plaque at the Bundeswehr Command and Staff College.

Yes, like a championship trophy. And so it is a symbol of these 21 great years, and it is also documented somewhere that I once was in the Bundeswehr.

Yes, absolutely. I remember well that it started in very early years; I don't even know how old I was, 5 or 6. I went with my father to the International Police Exhibition in Essen – I was born in Essen – and the Bundeswehr had these combat vehicles, tanks, and similar things on display. I was thrilled, and it drove me throughout my youth: I want to join the Bundeswehr. And I then implemented that; I went right after high school graduation. That was, after the work there, first studying, then troop assignment. Of course, it was then about rising to the top group – that is a selection process that runs over years – into the top group of soldiers, of officers. And in that sense, it was certainly a zenith, because this perspective was clearly underpinned.

I really can't pinpoint it. However, one has to say that after the 21 years, there was also a break, and that is why this medal is very important to me. The flip side that I also experienced: I had engaged very constructively critically with the meaning of 'War for Talent' for the Bundeswehr in this work. I was told there was a vote of 11 to 1 for my work, which was unusual because it was usually heavily debated. The one who was against my work was the commander of teaching, a certain Heesgen, who actually didn't want such a constructive critical engagement with the Bundeswehr. And yet this work was good. Many of these works are published, and my then mentor wanted a publication, but it really disappeared in the drawer. That was already a topic for me back then. The second thing was that shortly afterwards I managed to become the best of the course for the Air Force, and there was a second prize, the Baudissin Prize, which was considered to have even more radiance because it honored the virtuous officer, the most performant virtuous officer in the course. And I was told: you have qualified, but you already have a medal, so you can't get that one too. So it was not awarded after all. So I have this Clausewitz Medal, which I truly honor, and I don't pursue it further. But when I consider the personal commitment I made, I remember very well that during the General Staff course, to achieve this performance, I sent my family on vacation alone because I said I have to finish this course work. In that respect, I take the positive out: this medal was perhaps also the beginning of a process for me to deal with the fact that the Bundeswehr, which I aspired to and glorified, also has dark sides. But in retrospect, that is not the main topic for me; rather, it is also a reminder to maintain balance, which I think is very important in our times. So I hold this good piece in honor.

No, it was actually, as I briefly mentioned earlier, it was really the perspective, the charismatic personality who made me the offer – by the way, today one of my closest friends and over many years also a valued advisor. That appealed to me. It wasn't really a criticism that arose, but a differentiation, and I think that's always important in life: to differentiate. As a value-oriented person, it is very important to me not to blindly follow things. That was a process. The second stage was certainly when I worked in the ministry at the interface to politics as a so-called Executive Officer in the Command Staff of the Armed Forces. At that time, the Afghanistan operations were very formative for the Bundeswehr. Then Defense Minister Peter Struck had coined the phrase 'Germany is being defended at the Hindu Kush.' And I myself was responsible for operations policy and had to deal daily with the wounded and fallen soldiers; I had to administer the letters that went to the families. You go in with a romantically naive notion of the soldier's profession – I experienced that over many pages, many trips abroad, training in the USA – but then you suddenly become aware of what lies behind it and the responsibility for people that you have to bear. That was simply an engagement that does not stop me from still being an ordered reservist today, meaning I see defense as a life's task. But again, with a sense of proportion, differentiation, value orientation. I believe that is the self-image of a soldier in uniform. Those were formative moments.

Well, I would say: we serve, as the Bundeswehr says, we serve the Bundeswehr, and somewhere this service, in the sense of a very down-to-earth character, I have preserved. And if we look at it from that perspective, I actually have three stakeholders, as it is called in modern German, to whom I, or we as a company, serve. First and foremost are our customers, and thus the Bundeswehr, and that is also the meaningful part: making a significant contribution to the security of our Federal Republic of Germany, but also to Europe, to democracy, to values. The second is the capital market, and in fact, in analyst meetings, I am naturally driven to bring profitable growth to this company, and money plays an essential role. But the third stakeholder group, which is always very important to me because they carry the business we have, are our employees, who give their all every day to serve the first stakeholder, our customers. And I think if you see this overall picture, then it is indeed a whole lot more than just earning money.

I think it is first and foremost putting people at the center. In the Bundeswehr, and that was my case at the tender age of 24 when I came from university, I became a combat crew commander – as martial as it sounds – responsible for 30 soldiers in this team, from conscripts to senior NCOs close to retirement who brought incredible expertise. You learn very quickly: you have the rank to say where to go, but if you don't pick up these people, it won't work. That continued through company command and similar things. So I learned from the very beginning to value people, to take them seriously, to pick them up and take them along, but also an aspect of care that is clearly part of the Bundeswehr's leadership understanding. That shapes me to this day and is a very important element of my management personality.

You have many disciplines in management, you have diversity, we experience that in the company too, and we work very hard on that with our leaders. The best engineer who has proven himself through successes in the company is not automatically the best leader. I always say when I have young leaders in interviews who ask how many subordinates I can have, I tell them: if you want to lead, you must love people. Many underestimate the strength and energy you have to put into taking people with you. And I think I can't even say that soldiers cultivate it better; but again, not every soldier has all these abilities. So the Gaussian distribution applies on both sides.

In my case, I took a lot with me. If I may add, the second thing that I think is distinctive: as an officer, you learn, and this has to do with functioning in war and crisis, you learn to act with little information. Clausewitz, who is the namesake for this medal, coined the term 'fog of war'. You learn to act with 60% of information, and we see that some managers say they want to be on the safe side. So this strength to move forward, to remain calm in risk and critical situations, and to truly lead people, that is a strength you gain as an officer.

No, no. It is certainly a can-criterion that we also pay attention to, but not regarding leadership qualities. Rather, it is more about understanding our customer, especially with the now unfortunately re-emerging dialogue; it was always important for us to bring this understanding as a company in order to anticipate certain requirements. And I believe that a large proportion of Hensoldtians have also served; that is important to us, but it is not a must.

Well, first and foremost, I recently had this conversation with my wife. I am still an ordered reservist, Lieutenant Colonel of the Reserve. And the question wouldn't even arise for me; if there were a worsening of the situation, then I would certainly stand up as an officer in this Bundeswehr. I am always happy; a few weeks ago I was in Tokyo when the German frigate sailed in as part of the Indo-Pacific exercise, and when I hear the national anthem played by a music choir, I still get goosebumps. Then I feel almost as if I were in uniform, and officers salute at the flag and the national anthem, and there is still a reflex in me that my arm wants to move to the salute. So that runs deep.

On the other hand, I also have a vivid example: until about 5 years ago, I still liked to dig out my old uniform, the mess uniform, for official events and balls. But about 5 years ago, there was a situation with my wife where I reflected and realized that part of life is also being able to let go, because the Bundeswehr is also changing. So I said now I will buy myself a proper black tuxedo, out of the shoes not physically but mentally I have outgrown.

Yes, we are a parliamentary army, and I would say also our business, every major procurement goes through parliament. In that respect, the political dimension is tangible, and I think it is very important in democracy and the value system that we place military actions under a parliamentary mandate. So a clear yes.

Well, I am really happy. I experience this often, most recently again. I have great respect for politicians. Certainly, if you think about my career further, many in my circle of friends say: you started as a soldier, then as a civil servant, now in business, and I think this diversity would be very important in our society. And now you could go into politics. So that is a topic that still appeals to me. But I have great respect for the commitment; we as managers are already challenged 24/7, but when I see the strength that many of our politicians put into everyday life, I take my hat off to them. In that respect, I think what I do has a lot of meaning right now, and I do it with joy and passion. So I'll stick with it.