Stratégie, influence, IA : les coulisses de Vivendi avec Arnaud de Puyfontaine

Solving a problem first means knowing how to name it. And I think it is essential to have the ability to have a place for debate and to be able to express opinions for historical reasons. Sometimes there are opinions that take a position of notorious influence in the media environment. What we did in the group was to take a fair position to try to rebalance the debate. Sometimes, I may have had enthusiasms that, somewhere, through my will to succeed, made me lack objectivity on the probability of achieving it. He used to tell me running a business is like riding a motorcycle. If you've never fallen, it means you haven't tried hard enough.

Very well, thank you very much. We are talking about this tentacular group, I was talking about Vivendi.

Many questions in your question. The end is the last one. Is it strategic? Is it opportunistic? You are right. Let's do this more quickly. It is completely strategic. It is a vision. Back then, 10 years ago, because I have been doing this job for a little over 10 years, it went very fast, very, very fast. But it is the vision of the opportunity to create a plurimedia industrial group in the sectors of communication, entertainment, and information, and to create a European champion. There is no European champion. Yes, there is a German champion called the Bertelsmann group, and there is a listed company, Vivendi, which has lived through different chapters and created a formidable opportunity. And it turns out that in 2014, when I joined the group, I returned to France. I was previously in an American group. The group is the story of Citizen Kane, and I arrived for three reasons. First, the formidable project of building this vision of a large media group of French origin with a European ambition in a global market. The second thing, the ability to work on and build this strategic project with a shareholder who is a key shareholder, a cornerstone shareholder, if I may express myself that way, allowing us to let time take its course and have the possibility to build this story. We did it. We did it with the capacity, and I have always said it, Vivendi, a CAC 40 company until the implementation of our new organization, which I might talk about in a moment, is a group in which, as Chairman of the Management Board, I was protected from the risk that we sometimes see in the business world of making short-term decisions for short-term results that can undermine the long-term vision of creating this group. And Vivendi, when I arrived, people said music is a sector with no future. We see that we have proven the doomsayers wrong, since today it is one of the sectors in the media industry, with streaming and new uses exploding. So this vision is a strategic vision. You have to say that you were a major shareholder of Universal Music. We were the owner of Universal Music, we had 100%, and it is a company we accompanied and redeployed thanks to streaming, notably a certain Daniel Ek and all the emulators that were created with the founder of Spotify. It was a reinvention of the usage model and the economics of the music industry. And that was a vision we had, and it is the tandem of management and the key shareholder of the group that allowed us to develop it.

It's a few million... No, no, no. There was a valuation of Universal Music around 2013 which was around, sum of the parts, 7 billion, and the Universal Music group, of which we directly hold 10% today, was listed in Amsterdam on September 21, 2021, for a valuation of 45 billion. That's the story. Absolutely, yes, 7 to be very exact. And so you sold a part of your stake. So it was listed, and then we were able to redeploy, accompany the mutations, because what we experienced in music and why there was this transformation, we see it in books, we see it in Canal Plus. Canal Plus in 2014 was a company under pressure. It was a company where people said pay-TV was finished, people in our very benevolent environment said they would turn Canal Plus into Canal Minus. Well, facts are stubborn, because a formidable job was done by the teams, and today Canal Plus, in its new model of distribution, aggregation, and production, has a place on an international scale. It is a global group with many projects, as the news shows. But I will come back to this point because in your question, I really want to clarify that I also came into this project, which is formidable. I am very lucky to work in an environment like Vivendi, without the shareholder which is the Bolloré group, and without Vincent Bolloré who was the Chairman of the Supervisory Board until Yannick Bolloré took over in 2018. So Yannick and the Chairman, it's the 7th generation. It's a group that is over 200 years old and is part of these French groups, and I insist on this point, it is a formidable chance for a country like ours to have builders. And I take this because your question a few minutes ago was strategy or opportunity. I would like you to say that there is also a bit of opportunity. No, but life... thank you. So it's not just strategic. You see what happens. You also tell yourself that things will happen. Is it like asking if you prefer dad or mom? On that, no, the two make a whole and they make what you are. I think it is a logic that complements itself.

Listen, really for me, it's the transformation of the music sector, which started by saying we will invest and continue to invest in talent scouting, and we will invest in this transformation called streaming, which is a revolution, not an evolution. Music before 2014 was 15 years of progressive decline. 85% of the music economy disappeared in the space of about ten years. And so the ability to sustain it after the facts that somewhat cushioned the fall, which was iTunes and content downloading thanks to Steve Jobs, 88 cents a song, so it was very expensive. It's not for everyone. This evolution of streaming, of platforms, revolutionized consumption patterns and made us enter an economy where we went from physical purchase to purchasing a service by subscription, where a market concentrated on five countries in the world opened up and became a global market, which allowed us to value something called the catalog, which was only used in a certain number of compilation editions. And it became... the first thing I did when I bought my first subscription to a music platform, because now there are over 400 music platforms worldwide, but Spotify, Daniel Ek, at the beginning, the first thing I did was download the first 45 I bought at age 10 at a record store on Place Villiers, which was 'Sugar Baby Love' by The Rubettes. And so this valuation of the catalog, plus a very essential dimension, of course, and we saw it in the development of economies, and then a very important thing, and I insist a bit on music because I can develop it in all other media sectors, is the service dimension. I have my playlists when I go to the gym, I listen to a certain playlist. When I'm alone in my car, a playlist. When I'm with my wife, it's another playlist because we don't have exactly the same musical tastes. This service dimension and this ability to be accompanied in this pleasure of listening to music has real value. And so this aspect of helping me consume media is an aspect for which you are ready to pay something, and it is part of the new consumption patterns we see across the media sector.

I forgot. It happened. When you look back, I don't know anymore. I have the habit of keeping only the good memories and forgetting quickly. You know you won't get away with it like that. You know, we are talking about media. You know what media means.

Yes, we have this in the group. Oh, where? Well, Dailymotion. Dailymotion is a streaming platform, an actor. You have Dailymotion. I didn't know it still existed, that's why. Yes, that was... but you see, not at all. It's very nice, and you illustrate the fact that we learn every day. So Dailymotion still exists. Dailymotion is doing very well. I'm happy because it's French, so I shouldn't say that, but I have the impression that it continues to develop. It continues to grow. An excellent job is being done, and today there is the omnipotence of YouTube, of course, but there need to be alternatives, and it is a formidable alternative within the Canal Plus group, very complementary, and it has very encouraging results. I love 'encouraging'. It is encouraging when I see what it was when we acquired it in 2015 and what it is today, 10 years later. It is very encouraging, and I think strategically it is very important to have this activity within the Canal Plus group.

And my problem with this is, unlike Daniel Ek with Spotify, who was from Stockholm, Daniel managed to create the first company in the world, and we are often criticized in Europe for not being able to create global leaders. Unfortunately, Dailymotion, which started around the same time, did not manage to become the global leader for many reasons. So it's rather... But I am happy that you place this in a temporal sign because you refer to your impression in 2005. It turns out that between 2005 and 2015, when we acquired Dailymotion, the world had evolved a lot. We inherited a situation, and this situation is one where today Dailymotion is in a much better situation than that. But you bought it, it wasn't given to you. Oh, we bought it. And I am among those who greatly regret that the conditions were not met to ensure there were more Spotifys and European projects of global scale. But unfortunately, for many reasons we can come back to, because it is a subject I am passionate about, the ecosystem was not composed in all its components to be able to create these champions.

First of all, we look with great attention, and bravo for all these initiatives and developments. There are many facets, you know, in these formats. There are formats that are sustainable and formats that are trying. Look at what was said about Vice for a certain number of years. Look at BuzzFeed, I won't list all the initiatives. Think Brut will be next? Not at all. No, I'm just explaining that in the landscape you describe, if you ask me, I like Brut, it's well done. There are initiatives done on short formats, and Canal, Canal produces a certain number of products that are of a different nature but of great quality. You talk about it, you see Clique, what you do on Clique, for example. Exactly. You took the words out of my mouth. You have this formidable talent and this remarkable man who is Mouloud Achour and his associate Rudy Tayb and the team, and Clique does an absolutely formidable job. Formidable in terms of distribution on Canal Plus, formidable on social networks. So to answer your question, we see a certain number of things, the emergence of new formats, new modes of consumption. And to answer your question about how we see it and what we do, we are a stakeholder in this sector, in addition to the rest of our activities.

Absolutely structural, because technology has radically changed the way we consume media, whatever its form, and then to create the conditions that allow us to develop and grow. And that is the reason why Vivendi reorganized last December. From the Vivendi company, we created four independent companies with the same reference shareholder, each of them listed, to give them the ability to create value that will allow them to develop, make acquisitions, and have the capacity to develop not sequentially, if I may say so, but in parallel. Why? Because this evolution of time, technologies, and uses creates opportunities. So on one side, there is the Canal Plus group, listed in London, which is on an ambitious operation in South Africa to create a leader on the African continent for pay-TV. There is Havas, which is completely in its transformation of the advertising markets, a remarkable communications and advertising group that launched a concept called Converge AI in Cannes last week, which is ahead of the curve on all the evolutions and transformations of the advertising market. There is the Lagardère group and Louis Hachette Group, in travel retail or book publishing, education, and also in this transformation. And then there is Vivendi, which controls 100% of Gameloft, a company born from mobile video games but which today is a pure multi-platform player in the video game universe. And then a Vivendi group which is an active shareholder in its various situations, Universal Music, Media for Europe Group.

Thank you, Mr. Mars, but that is thanks to the quality of the teams and everything that allows us to write these beautiful stories. And I think, excuse my conviction, I think life is much easier when you smile.

Ah, so there we haven't... get ready. I think so. Yes, I will be very clear. Canal Plus, with the Canal Plus team led today by Maxime Saada, has reinvented the model. A reinvention of the model based on an evolution of the Canal Plus group's business, which is a distribution business, a production business, and an aggregation business precisely because the arrival of Netflix and then Disney Plus, Max, Paramount+, and so forth created a huge landscape with a global race for the number of subscribers. It changed usage, it created monthly subscriptions that you can cancel and then reinstate, a revolution in the world, and an explosion of investment in content. In this international landscape with this great global battle, Canal Plus reinvented itself in an extraordinary way, and today Canal Plus has over 28 million subscribers. I hope the operation in Africa will happen and will allow us to double or triple our current main markets, which are France, Europe, Africa, and Asia. That is the strategy defined not long ago. An important partner in Asia, I believe. There are two things: there is Viu, which is an Asian platform, and there is a position in Viaplay in Northern Europe. So this vision... when you say we are not... Canal Plus is one of the agents of the transformation. Until a few days ago, it was called MyCanal, now it's the Canal Plus app, and it allows... it is considered, and I might be biased, tell me where it is number one. Number one in usage, in quality. Over a billion invested in technology. It is remarkable, sincerely. All listeners and viewers of this remarkable program called Pause must use Canal without any moderation, and it is much better than all the others. But to answer your question, absolutely. Besides, we have been cohabiting recently, notably on Air France flights. When I fly on Air France, I enjoy having the Best of Canal selection or having Pause a little bit, like in the new Renaults, the Renault 5 for example and the Renault 4, you have a Canal offer. You see this evolution of modes. But Canal, the platform for distributing our content, has nothing to envy Netflix, so we are an actor in this field. The question that arises is that you have an actor with 300 million, which is Netflix. We today are at 28 million. So you have an element that allows you to grow. Does having subscribers give you bargaining power over production, especially when you invest in your own production? Because there is a remarkable company called StudioCanal, which is a subsidiary of the Canal group, which invests in series, in creations, 'Le Bureau des Légendes', 'Baron Noir', recently 'La Fièvre', and others. There is a continuity of quality. The Canal label remains a quality label by definition, in the profusion of content, a bit more than Netflix or Prime Video. Thank you, Mr. Mars.

But so we are an actor, and when we come back to the Canal Plus app, it is an app on which we distribute our friends at Netflix. Precisely, who is your competitor? When you talk with Maxime Saada, the head of Canal Plus, who is the competitor? Is it TF1 today at Canal Plus? Is it Netflix? It is everywhere. Today, with the explosion of all forms of media content, everything is competition. Because in fact, I need to have, in the quality of what we produce in all areas, enough relevance to make sure you spend time reading, watching, listening, playing. And I think that where 10 years ago the strategic obsession was to produce the best content in all these forms, today that is not enough. There are two other aspects. We went from an analog world to a three-dimensional world. What do I mean by that? You must obviously have as an absolute obsession to make the best music, the best films, the best content, the best books, the best magazines, the best video games, the best advertising campaigns. But you must have the ability, in parallel, to do two things. One, create notoriety, that is, make it known and give the desire to consume it, use it. And in parallel, make it readily available and create a consumer experience that you don't have elsewhere. So today, in all these professions, you need the quality of the content, making it known and giving the desire to consume it, and then making it available and ensuring that your usage, hence the fantastic side of Canal Plus in content consumption, puts you in the driving seat of your consumption of all Canal content. And these are the three things that must reinforce each other.

I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting that. Yes, because it's, I've said it from the very beginning, for me this adventure is also a human adventure, and I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky because I have the trust, the support of Yannick, of Vincent, and for me it's a professional adventure of course, but it's also, and I would almost say above all, a human adventure. That's the first thing. The second thing, I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky because, well, how should I put it? I keep the same enthusiasm in this generational transition, if I may say so. And to have the possibility to have the trust of the various players of this family and to have the joy of working alongside Yannick. It's a real joy, which is both the joy of shared experience, of the strength, of the way I consider myself stronger by having my chairman as a discussion partner and a real enthusiasm, an enthusiasm to be able to live everything we experience on a daily basis, whatever it may be, because it's not always easy, but with an ability to overcome everything. Go ahead, go ahead. And I would just like to add something very important to me, and I want to answer Yannick's question. Of course, this behavior is the result of everything I've just said, but there is another thing. When I took my first CEO job, I dined with the chairman, Sir Robin Miller, it was MA PLC, a company listed in London, a foot one on road. And the eve of my appointment, he gave me three pieces of advice. The first was to consider that I was riding a motorcycle at the time, and he was too. He told me, 'Running a business is like riding a motorcycle. If you never go fast enough, if you never fall, it means you haven't tried hard enough.' So it's the taste for risk and the ability sometimes to take risks and not be afraid to take risks. And sometimes, sometimes it doesn't work. But if you never fall, it means you didn't go fast enough. I strongly believe that. Point number 1. Point number 2, he told me think about the few people in your life to whom you will give a knife and turn your back without any hesitation. There you go. And that I'm very lucky because I turn my back without any hesitation. Sorry, this image is a bit belligerent, but it means the dimension of trust, loyalty, commitment, and the pleasure of being able to go all out without any qualms. There, sorry, in a more prosaic way, but it's true. And the last one, and I'm coming to that, I believe that when you have a leadership role, whatever it is, you have a responsibility towards your environment, towards your colleagues. And he told me, 'As of tomorrow, you will be an actor.' So I said, 'But Robin, what do you mean by that?' And he explained the following thing which is so true. In the morning when you arrive at the office, the way you behave, the way you are, who you are, has such an impact on the people around you, on the teams, that even if you are tired, even if sometimes you would rather do something else, even if you've had setbacks, well, you have to act, you have to, and that it becomes, I love what I do so much, I love doing it with the people I do it with, I have this enthusiasm for the complicity that I have and that we have created, built. Finally, yes, I am tired sometimes, yes, I have doubts, yes, I may have had setbacks, when people arrive or I believe, yes, and we arrive saying, but Arnaud, you are in top form, it's a pleasure, it's a form of jubilation. Several things in what you said. The first is that it's true that knowing you well for years, I find this enthusiasm on many subjects, whether professional or private. I know that despite the fact that you may also have ups and downs like anyone, any human being, I always find you are right. Either you look, you were taught to look at the glass half full, and you will just say there will be something beautiful and good to find in it.

Listen, the desire came to be able to look and tell myself that I am happy to have had the life I had, that I am happy to have shared and to have played the role I had for those around me, and to have a few people up there who are very important to me and who are watching and who will be able to say 'well done' and then 'welcome the moment.' Yes. I believe a lot in building on values that are essential. I've made mistakes, I've done stupid things, I've had failures. And yes, but it's always the ability, the ability to learn, to get out, to strengthen myself from mistakes I may have made, to be there and to share, to give back to those around me, and to build. Yes, I have succeeded.

For me, the 'umch' is not my thing at all. And the ability to share these experiences or failures or mistakes, I do it willingly, without any, and even with pleasure, because it allows me to share an experience and to ensure that the same mistakes are avoided, and especially to take advantage of these mistakes to guide and give possibility to those who... it's also my role as a father, for example. And it's in this father role that he would not be without his wonderful wife. So it's an equation, and Bénédicte, who is your wonderful wife, for that matter, really, she is the wonderful one. But before we come back to Bénédicte, on these subjects of failure, you tell me you like to share. What would be the failure that you would like to share with us? Your real failure, or the mistake you have made in the last 20 years?

Sometimes I have had enthusiasms which, somewhere by my will, my will to succeed, made me lack objectivity on the probability of achieving it. There you go. You were so passionate, you were so optimistic. Yes. That maybe I let myself be carried away by this optimism. Example, a country for example. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I had a fantastic adventure with an extraordinary team when EMAP was created in France. Then, for many reasons, one day the company was sold. We had a group, it was an Italian group. That's it. And somewhere, the transition from a British culture to a rather Latin culture. I perhaps slightly overestimated or underestimated the differences. So you see, it's that kind of thing, and when you look back, there's no judgment. There's just the reality that I could have shown a little more realism in the nature of what needed to be done and how it needed to be done. And I don't like losing. I don't like losing. And so, sometimes you always want... maybe you think you're invincible? Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. In any case, I want to go all the way, and sometimes it's better, as in all things, better to step back and focus. There you can make a real difference. You see, recently at Vivendi, we had a tremendous success in music, and at the same time we tried an operation in Italy on a company called Telecom Italia. It was a fantastic adventure but extremely difficult, and well, we slightly underestimated the Italian landscape. Oh, I underestimated many things. I am much stronger now. I am a specialist in transalpine relations. Italy is an extraordinary country that I love, of course. But we come back to the discussion on artificial intelligence. Here we see something arriving that is real, that is perhaps not a technology that will change everything. We had questions about Web 3 some time ago. That is something that is changing industries one after another. How are you approaching that at the group level? Have you said, we need experts in all the different dimensions, do we need to see this at the central level because it is changing everything? Do you think it will change everything? I don't know what 'change everything' means, but does it mean potentially undermining part of your businesses? No, it won't undermine it, finally, it will if we don't evolve and don't make the right decisions with this wave. And so, our philosophy in this area, you see, is the philosophy of the surfer. That is to say, the surfer's talent is... I close my eyes, I imagine you. I see you taking the wave. Yes, it's above all because I have friends who are great surfers and so I see them, because for me, I prefer to put the image in my mind rather than in reality because I am really pathetic at surfing. But this image is that either you take the wave head-on and you know it very well, or you don't time it right, or you surf it literally and figuratively. And so we have to surf it. When you see, and it's also experience that allows, when you see what was the first internet wave, when you look at all the excesses and follies that were generated at the time when everyone was starting with their business plan, their internet plan, and you had incredible valuations and all that, it's ridiculous, isn't it? And so, there you see, and you had great debates that are essential on content protection, on intellectual property, on the evolution of professions. In journalistic professions, you had an incredible debate, but when you ask the question, you say to yourself 'But how is it possible?' You had written journalists who had to create newsrooms as if there were a kind of magic line. Here, we are living something that does not create an evolution but a revolution, and this revolution opens extraordinary perspectives for our various industries.

There are several levels of response to this very important and essential question. The first is how GenAI impacts the organization of companies and the way we must effectively integrate these tools into the way we do things. Point number 1. Point number 2, there is the way it impacts professions. You know, today I was at the Lions in Cannes, the Cannes Lions, which is this global gathering of advertising and communication in Cannes, and you effectively had... is that your agent? There you go. So your agency is a kind of interlocutor that allows you to do your job better, to respond based on knowledge of who you are, all your data, and that allows you to be your interlocutor. It's extraordinary. All that is evolving, but it changes our professions, the location of time, the way of accessing information, the intelligence around the use of information. And then, as we are in the media sector, and you said it very well, music, publishing, films, there is not a single area, but there is an aspect in this domain which is extraordinarily topical: that of the protection and intellectual property of content, which is a vast subject. The subject of many discussions is absolutely necessary. But the point I want to make is that it is a revolution. But I believe in human ingenuity and the ability to use this revolution and find our position in the capacity to make it a tool that will allow us to go faster, further, differently, but to still keep everything that is in the creative process and that is very specific and for the moment absolutely not duplicable in a GenAI environment in any form whatsoever. Because we see more and more companies developing skills, hiring, thinking differently. So because it is ahou, but that's for sure, you are absolutely right. And so from that point of view, there is no central thing, it's that this phenomenon is everywhere in the company, and each of the collaborators, finally in the group, in the group today composed of four entities, that's more than 75,000 people worldwide. Everyone has thought, integrated and trained to have the ability to use well and adapt well, evolve well and train well with respect to all the consequences of the new world that is taking shape. We talk about media, we talk obviously about trust in the media. Here we talk in particular about television media. You have a certain number of them at your place. We were talking about the Canal Plus group earlier, and in the Canal Plus group, obviously Canal Plus, but there are others like CNews for example. You now have the press where you have the ability to deliver a message. How do you see it, not as an owner but as director of such a powerful media group, the ability of people now to see more and more? It came first from the United States, a very strong confrontation between parties, believing less and less in what the other says. We grew up in a world where when you watched or read something, you perhaps had the simplicity to believe what was said. Today, in fact, we hardly believe anything anymore. The listeners, the viewers, how do you live in this world where you know that information is essential, sharing it is important? How do you manage to live with that with people who will inevitably look at that and say, 'You are biased?' We start already to turn on or tune into the channel, thinking 'They are biased'. Whether it's from one side or the other. How do you live with these remarks? And how do you think people experience the distrust towards the media? Do you think it is absolute?

No, I don't think it's absolute, but I think it's a real subject. Well, several things. We come out of the internet phenomenon which, for me, is nonsense, which is saying that information can be free, and I think the label and the source have a price, and you have to be more and more sourced, if you will, and a source that is a source of trust, that's the first thing. The second thing, you had the phenomenon regarding the vectors of information which are the traditional vectors of television, radio or the press. You had the arrival of platforms, and on these platforms you had the emergence where you have two factors which are new factors. In the media, so-called 'old media', right? You had a responsibility. The publisher has a personal responsibility. The publishing director is personally responsible for everything the journalists in his group write. Same thing in television and radio. In this distribution of information with networks, you have two things: the status of the platform, which is a status that has nothing to do with the status. So, you have no responsibility. I am the owner-boss of X or any platform, I have no personal responsibility. And two, you have something which for me was something pernicious. There, I was looking for the term, which is anonymity, because the combination of the de-responsibilization of the issuer with anonymity means you effectively leave a sort of anarchy regarding the quality of this information, and that creates a real shock between the old world of so-called traditional media and these new media. That's the first thing. The second thing, and it has an impact. It has an impact on the way you form an opinion, on your role as a citizen, and it has an impact on society. It has an impact on the relationship between the citizen and politics. And somewhere, it creates this kind of doubt. That is to say, I don't believe what I see, or I have an opinion formed by sources that are absolutely not legitimate. And we see, we see the impact it has on young generations, on the situation and on political life. You see the influence of some on elections and that kind of thing. If you add to that an increasingly complex world, a geopolitical situation whose complexity we know, and you add to that a real problem which is the problem of the relationship with politicians. And in each country, we will not make an exhaustive list, but there are situations that are different, starting with our own, isn't it? When you see that today, less than one in two French people will cast their ballot, that questions you all the same about the system and the legitimacy of the system. Then, in this context, you come to the role of the media. I think that if you want to solve a problem, you first have to name it. And I think it is essential to have the ability to have a place for debate and to express opinions for historical reasons. Sometimes there are opinions that take, in the media environment, a position of notorious influence. What we have done in the group is to take a fair position to try to rebalance the debate. That's what has been done, and which subjects to many comments, many demonizations, it's that there was, according to you, a part of the people were not necessarily informed with the angle was not necessarily given to a part of... I think there are many subjects that were swept under the rug that were not addressed, and addressing them was something... that's the result of a history, and the fact that things were not said and that today you find yourself in a scheme with very strong muscularization of debates where certain subjects were not supposed to be mentioned, and putting them on the table effectively corresponds to a real need. And why do I say a real need? First, it is essential in relation to the defense of democratic models because I think we need to be able to tell each other things. When I see the caricature of a certain number of things that are a sort of one-way thinking in a certain number of media, that is something that leads to catastrophe. So it's good to rebalance points of view, it's good to mention all subjects. There should be no forbidden subject, there is a reality, we can be against it but there are facts and then there is opinion. And listen, when I see the progression, you mentioned CNews, well CNews is nonetheless the consequence of the fact that there was a real need, a real reality, and we are nonetheless in a period where there is this need for this form of debate. When you look at Europe 1, Europe 1 effectively had very good results, it was rather moribund a while ago, it's doing better today but you have a point, moribund a while ago and yet it's a historic radio station, and we see that this progression is a subject. For you, evidently, who leads this group, but there is always this question between the responsibility of a message that is carried and the economics behind it. For you, can anything be acceptable or feasible as long as it has a flourishing or at least growing economy? You see, with my angle, I see debates sometimes led by Cyril Hanouna who was at your place, still recently at your place in this big group. You say, is that really it? Well, maybe there are a million French people who want to hear that. Is that, for you, with your culture, your vision, your education, and yet I still like to give information to as many people as possible. But is that, for you, the... I understand it's a huge success, but is that, for you, the responsibility of a media?

Alexandre, you are... everyone has their opinion. First of all, Cyril did an excellent job and he brought success to C8. I set the context, and what shocks me much more is that, for reasons that shock me, a frequency was withdrawn, a renewal of broadcasting frequency after more than 20 years of investment in a channel that was the top DTT channel, and with who makes this decision? And it's really the example, it falls on Hanouna, but the question is, I understand economically it's relevant. I ask myself the question, for someone like you, to say, is that what we want to share as information? Because the defense of the media also comes in the way it is expressed, in the guests we have. It's not just saying the French want this, so we will give them that. It's not only that. I think that what was done was quality work that corresponded to a need, and I was and still am rather 'hands off my show' rather than other competing shows. Have you not sometimes been a little... you didn't see yourself saying, 'But Alexandre, we expect...' but I could say exactly the same thing about things that happen on TMC or on other shows on which... what do we do? Close everything down? Call Arcom? Close everything? Come on. No, I just say that everyone can have their own appreciation of the different types of content, but sometimes on public service, I hear things that are unacceptable. On TMC, in shows competing with the one by Cyril Hanouna, I have heard things that were absolutely unbearable and so I won't make a list for fear of being disparaging. I just say that the reality is there is a product, a television channel that responded to a need, and this need brings us back to the subject at the time when the very talented CEO of M6, Nicolas Taverna, decided to broadcast Loft Story, a big debate, there you go. There is a population, there are diversities, there are different types of need. Real work was done, there was a real positioning with the quality of all the C8 teams, whom I thank for everything that was done. And I truly regret the decision that was made and the consequences related to that decision. Once again, it was one show on a channel that had many more shows than that. But the point on that was precisely this defense... there was an excellent literary show hosted by the very regretted Philippe Labro. You give me the opportunity to salute him and to tell him all the friendship and admiration I had for him. So we are on this distrust of the media which exists, which is a fact and which is not really improving. I saw it start to appear with Fox News in the United States where there was precisely a product, as you rightly say, there is a product, meaning there is a need. But it's true that today there is a part of the people who, when they turn on Fox News, say, 'Well, me, as long as it comes from Fox News, I don't believe it', and conversely, so it becomes more and more complicated to know how to proceed. You were talking earlier, I was also interested in talking about these platforms, these platforms that exist. We are talking about the GAFAM, you know, these big platforms. You who work with them in a certain way, at certain levels, because everyone has to work with the GAFAM. You have seen them, obviously, you were telling me about the Lions in Cannes, these platforms are omnipresent. You, if you are in... what's good is that you can say it because you are not in the United States, you are not the American Arcom. You understand the issue of dismantling these absolute powers? Do you think that, a bit like the Bell and Baby Bell a long time ago in the United States, there comes a time when this over-power poses a problem and we need to reconsider how to handle this type of information?

We are talking essentially about advertising here. If you look over 15 years, 80% of the advertising market has been effectively absorbed by Google and Meta. That is a fact, with the consequences that has on the financing of the media. And that is true on a global scale, isn't it? So the subject is a subject of the relationship between a producer, an actor that we are as content producers, and the relationship we have with the distributors who are effectively Google. Because when you talk about distribution, you talk about Google, you have the Search engine, but Google, you also have YouTube, and the relationship and the power is the fight of David against Goliath. So you have two things. You either have the definition of rules of the game that allow respecting a form of competition and the ability to consider that we have rules that are respected to ensure there is no monopoly and asphyxiation. That's a first thing. Or effectively there are tangible elements that demonstrate that there are excesses and that bias the competition rules. We need to ask the question of what needs to be decided and put in place to ensure the viability of each actor in a predetermined ecosystem.

But I am always honest with you, by definition. Well, listen, I strongly believe in commitment, but then you have to define the form. I think there is a degradation of political life. And for two reasons, first, I think there are a certain number of excesses that mean that when you commit to politics, the price to pay is absolutely phenomenal. That's a fact. A certain number of decisions made and voted by parliament are decisions that lead to a sort of unwillingness to engage for those who could do so because it is a sort of remedy against love, if I may say so. So that's the first thing. So, if necessary, everything would need to change so that effectively there are rules, and rules are very important, but we are not able to...

It's still something that is more like the Inquisition than capacity. That's the first thing. And then the second thing, you say it very well, one day if there is a commitment to be made, in any case, it's a commitment that doesn't just involve me, but first and foremost a family environment that is multiple and varied. And finally, from time to time in what I see and so on, it can be titillating, but I am happy to contribute to what I do today. Happy to be able to continue and to bring, wait, I have done a number of things at the French American Foundation, at the alumni association of the remarkable school that is SCP Business School.

No. It's not a direct no, because it is in full disruption, it is in full transformation and it is an attrition phenomenon. But I think it has a future. It has a future. Yes. But it will no longer be what it was. And its forms, the function it had decades ago, are being replaced by new distribution channels and new consumption habits. But there will always be Harper's Bazaar available in a nice glossy paper, which I recommend reading without any moderation.

Ah, you think? Oh well, of course. A journalist can be independent. Of course he can be independent. Of course.

Yes, they do read, but they read very differently, and there is a real issue about how the brain and learning, the questions that arise regarding reading on screens versus paper, and trust in content. So there is a real challenge nonetheless: they read differently, vertically, with a fairly limited attention span, and there is a real issue of restoring the love of reading, and that is the role of publishers and the ability to re-engage. A very good book is Joël Dicker's latest, which I recommend you absolutely see because it covers very different themes, and its mission is to explain the importance of reading and family sharing in the education and training of young people.

That was in a previous life. I was a publisher. So, social media have done more harm than good to information.

Pascal Pro is a good journalist. Yes. That, at least, was sure earlier. Because sometimes there are questions that call for a certain perspective. In this case, regarding Pascal, he is a very good journalist. He is a courageous man. He is an opinionated man, as they say, he takes positions, and that is very commendable, and he is not biased, he just does his job and has the advantage of saying out loud what many think quietly.

Yeah, I thought it was a break but it's a super active break. Vincent Bolloré, first word that comes to mind: great entrepreneur and man of conviction. ChatGPT, very useful, very practical. It's quite phenomenal. Small pressure on Alphabet and on the evolution of search engines in the long term. Yeah. Ah, that's rather complicated. Well, it's a British understatement. A British understatement, Benedict. Yes. Ah no, it's not a wonderful name. That's not what I expect. Wonderful name. Ah, for sure. I really like Bene. There you go. If she won't be happy. I assure you, when she hears that I said Benedict wonderful name, I think you won't be coming home. You can bristle that. Qui? No. Benedicte, I come back, you know, I am Benedicte, eminently important in who I am. Exceptional woman. Maxime and Odette. My grandparents. Paternal, yes, absolutely. And I was the eldest grandchild. And Maxime knew my father when my father was 4 years old because he went to war and was a prisoner. So he met his son at age 4 and then had no other sons. So when I arrived, I was the grandson and he made a kind of transfer onto you. Yes, I wasn't old enough to make a transfer, but in any case I adored him. He carries a great responsibility for who I am, and yet what surprised me is that you love him so much and you loved him so much that one of your children bears his name, Maxime, whom I also love very much, and what surprised me in this story is that your grandfather died quite early, so you created a very strong relationship very quickly because I think you were about 10 years old when he passed. So you see, when I saw him, I really knew your relationship with him, but I was surprised by that period which is still quite early, between 0 and 10 years, and yet years later when I talk to you about it, I feel this feeling that overwhelms you, this notion of pure love at that moment. It's wonderful, I have nothing to add. What you feel is reality. Not a day goes by that I don't think of him, and that's not the case for everything. I loved my grandparents very much. There is a fairly unique relationship in a decade that laid the foundations for what drives me and is undoubtedly a very important part of my engine. So we went quite fast because we talked a lot about Vivendi, the media universe. It's true that we talked very little about you, about how you grew up. You come from a fairly well-off family. Your father was a sales director, your mother was a housewife. We talk about another grandfather who is more famous than Maxime because you had a grandfather who had been at RTF, L'Aurore, a press group called Femme d'Aujourd'hui. So he did television, radio, writing, and he was also an author since he wrote a book on Joan of Arc, a book on love, and the last part of his life for more than 15 years he wrote a reference dictionary in the Bouquin collection, the Dictionary of the Bible. So you also had that side, a bit of pressure on that part when we talk about these grandparents. One who saw you a lot in your young years, your parents had you early, so you also spent time so that people understand why you had this relationship with him. On the other side, you have another grandfather who was a big name in the media universe. You, how and we are the consequence of our childhood most of the time, each of us, how did you manage that with your own children? You and Benedicte have 4 wonderful children. How did you manage that, being present but having to work enormously? How do you function to not necessarily repeat the same mistakes that our parents inevitably make? And we try to do a little less? So how did you handle that?

I don't know if I handled it, I lived it better, I did my best. With hindsight, I would have liked to be more available, spend more time, but ultimately I don't think there is a right thing to do and a wrong thing to do. It's the way we live it. And once again, I insist on this point, we built a family with Benedicte where everything we have done in our lives, in our family cell, in what I do, I always say, you know, I am what I am because my wife and I did it together, a very important element. And the children, of course, there are things we did well, things that could have been done differently. I am very proud of my children. I love them. I am proud of who they are. They are different from each other. Alice, Inès, Maxime, Quentin. Bravo. I live with great interest and great involvement and great emotions everything they do, all the phases of life they are in. I would say that ultimately, you know, when you consider, and this is the case, and you see, they will probably see this pause and I will tell them because it will make them laugh, and there is no more wonderful moment than when we are all gathered together, and you know the Sunday lunch or the holiday moment is the greatest happiness, and that means that even if there are things we could have done differently, at the end of the day, that's great.

First of all, I really didn't expect that either. So that's a bit... but first of all, they are all wonderful, and Alice who is the eldest, the status of eldest is a status, parents often draft the first one, and Alice, as she... it's complicated. But yes, I feel you, I feel you when I talk to you about other subjects, it's easier. We feel that you are less used to it, let's say. No, it's that it's more personal, it's more... Sometimes it happens in moments of life where you take a lot of things on the meaning of things, the meaning of family, the marks you want to leave, etc. So you see, of course. But the moment, the moment when you said to yourself, this fullness that we rarely manage to find, a moment when because everyone has their ups and downs, our children too, and a moment you know where there is a place where you say, they have been too rare and I hope we will manage to erase, it's the family moments spent in a privileged place in Italy where we love to gather and we have gathered in different configurations, and the fact of being all six there, that's a secret. So if it's on the Amalfi Coast. OK. There you go. We won't go further. It's secret.

I feel different today than a few weeks ago. A few weeks. There you go. So serenity regarding this perspective that we know is inevitable, but therefore an increasingly important requirement regarding the way I live every second that passes. And the ability to tell myself, when the time comes, to have no regrets.

No, more requirements regarding the way I want to live the minutes that pass. More impatience with anything that can waste time or create frustrations. A little more impatient perhaps. And more willingness to live things passionately with the people I love and to be able to have an impact in all areas that allow me to contribute and bring my little piece. You know, there is this Tesco supermarket chain that has an advertising claim: 'Every little helps.' Well, I am a little 'little' and I want to help and contribute with even more energy and will. I am very lucky because I am very young as you said, but notwithstanding my age, I still have the same energy as when I was 20. And that gives me a lot of capacity to do and desire. I have a lot of desire.

Listen, the answer is definitely yes. I think we are in an environment where, in these professions related to technologies, we have markets, professions, and industries that are becoming more and more global, and in the content and media sector, there is the local impact and the global impact. We know that in the field of films, music, everything is both global and local, the term 'glocal'. I think that having in our various professions players who can create and support an ecosystem that allows us to develop, strengthen, and feed the existence of a European, French, and various countries' culture, compared to a sort of huge success and very powerful industry in the United States, is obviously essential and important. So we need to be pragmatic too, because sometimes I think that in France we have an almost Pavlovian reflex of opposing big and small sectors, considering that creativity only comes from small ones and that big ones will stifle it. I think that's a mistake in analysis. I think it's important to have big players because in a way, big players are actually a confederation of players who have regrouped under the same banner, and just as you see in other industries, and I'm not afraid to talk about industry because it is an industrial reality, it's about having an ecosystem where you have strong pillars, and the strong pillars are reinforced by all the independents and the entire environment that they help to perpetuate and develop. And there is an enrichment of context that allows creativity, development, initiatives, innovation, etc. So for me, it's essential.

It's a current topic, so I'll be a bit general in my reaction to your question, and it's driven by the formidable teams at Canal and by Maxime as you said. I think that before Prime Video and what happened with the league, you had the Mediapro affair. Yes, Mediapro. So you have a historic partner, and then someone who potentially, or there were positions that meant Canal Plus was very mistreated, very badly treated, and Maxime did his utmost to create the conditions to reconnect, but it comes to a point where there are limits. So now there is a new situation, etc., we'll see. I am among those who hope, I have this hope, that we will see all the matches in the same place, without too much piracy, which is important for you, piracy is essential everywhere, that's obvious. So we'll see what happens. But the reality is that Canal Plus has real know-how, real competence, real editorialization by its teams, the passion with which they do it creates a spectacle, and you see it everywhere. You mentioned rugby, when I see the work done with the Top 14 over the last 10 years, it's exactly the model that was not implemented by French football. First thing, second thing: don't hesitate to subscribe to Canal because the Champions League is wonderful. The English Premier League is exceptional, especially when Arsenal, Mr. Depuyfontaine, you who compare Formula 1, Formula 1 is totally exceptional. MotoGP is superb. And yes, but there aren't many buts at the base, Mr. Mars. Yes, Mr. Depuyfontaine. Yes, we say Depuyfontaine. That's it. You are right, Mr. Mars. You are right, Alexandre. But at the base, the essential thing is how we recreate a product and a spectacle that can attract and generate the attention of the greatest number and effectively create the economic conditions to create a virtuous circle. So let's be careful, let's of course make the spectacle, and let's be careful who buys our clubs. When we see what the president did to Bordeaux, Gérard Lopez did to Bordeaux, it's unacceptable what we are seeing now in Lyon, it's unacceptable, and so we must be careful, money is not everything. Especially when, like Mediapro a few years ago, it doesn't even exist, it's virtual. Let's be careful, we've seen it a lot on the internet, you know it very well. As you said earlier, and this pit, it's complicated. We want, we would like, I dream of having again the beautiful Canal Plus we knew, which also includes Ligue 1. It's good, you know what? It's also good to have dreams. And for me, that's something I would like. Life belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams, and a successful life is a teenage dream realized in adulthood. So with these two combinations, in my opinion, the future belongs to you. That's good. Thank you. I'm pumped up now. I have a combination of Roosevelt and Alfred de Vigny. We're getting there, this mix. We're coming to the end of our conversation.

I am obviously very touched, and for me it is the most beautiful compliment and the expression of a mutual desire to continue this extraordinary adventure. So it touches me a lot.

My grandfather Maxime used to say the following: 'Children are made to raise, grandparents are made to enjoy.' And so I would say, it's complicated, what would I say? I haven't thought about it yet. Come see me, we'll enjoy life together. That's what you experienced, what you did with Maxime and Odette. I would like to be a grandfather that one day they can talk about as I can talk about those, and especially the one who had such an influence on me and who I am. And so I don't know how I will express it, but in any case I will make sure that what I will be and what I will live and what I will build with them will one day be in continuity with what my grandfather Maxime Depuyfontaine created in this formidable complicity that we built together during the first 10 years of my life. That's what is very unique.

You know, I really like this Amalfi Coast. I really like this Amalfi Coast. We can't see the place. In any case, we are in Italy. We are in Italy, and the smell of basil, sun-drenched tomatoes, very good mozzarella.

[Laughter] And there, you tell me Cyril Hanouna. Ah well, no, but I will invite you to dinner so we can have a good time all three. Listen, I would, to tell the truth, I would like to have the possibility, in the context of different breaks, to be the friendly break with Yannick Bolloré as a guest, and then maybe after that with Antoine Fiévet, and then you could finish with a Depuyfontaine. I could thus pass the ball to them with a lot of affection, a lot of friendship, Arnaud, and a lot of feelings. Yeah. Of love, we know that. Arnaud, thank you very much for your time during this break. Thank you for this break. It was very special, and it's the first time you said, well, you didn't know what to expect, at least now you know. Listen, the happiness of this break, now I know, it was a beautiful and good break in absolute terms, and you made it very special, and I thank you. Thank you, Arnaud. Thank you, Alexandre. Thank you all for taking the time to take a break with us. I hope you enjoyed the show, were inspired, or made you think. If so, I count on you to share it with your loved ones, leave a comment, and give a 5-star rating on listening platforms. If you want to suggest guests or simply give feedback, you can contact me via LinkedIn by typing Alexandre Mars, or write to me at the following address: [email protected].