Incontri in BLU 2023 - MASSIMO PEROTTI - 21/09/2023

Well, there I was perhaps in my first year of university, or I don't remember anymore. I dreamed of becoming a manager. I dreamed of becoming a great manager. I was already 1.92 meters tall, so that helped. In those years in Turin, Fiat was doing very well because there was a manager named Ghidella who knew how to make the product. Ghidella made the Fiat Uno and launched it at Cape Canaveral in America, and it was a great success. As you know, Fiat is a great Italian company from Turin, it's a bit of a dream for all young people who want to become managers. So my goal, my ideal, was not Fiat itself, but to one day do what Ghidella had done: create a special product, take a very large company.

But these things I want to say are the truth. In fact, I wish all young people to have a burning love disappointment because it helps you mature. Yes, it's true.

One summer I was 16, but I was already physically a man because I was like I am now. And I had told a lie to the group of friends I had met at the beach. I said I was 18. So I met a 19-year-old girl who was particularly attractive. I fell in love with her, she was also my first woman in every sense. And unfortunately I am Scorpio with Scorpio rising, so very focused on the things that matter, but also prone to losing my head if things don't go well. And nothing, I returned in September and I could only think about her. She was doing a TV show where she presented songs. So I would go around with a giant radio trying to tune in to hear her voice. In March, they called my parents and said, 'Listen, you can keep your son at home because this year he will fail.' So I failed. But that was a passage of maturity. From that moment on, school was always very good, but I lost a year of school.

Well, I had never been on a boat, as you can imagine from the family I told you about. I didn't know English, and I hadn't had the opportunity to study abroad. In '83 it wasn't exactly a normal thing. And by great chance, I met Paolo Vitelli. I was 23, he was 37, so very young, but he had founded Azimut when he was 20. We met in that period. He had a commercial manager named Carlo Agliardi, who is still alive. Carlo Agliardi was a great figure in Italian yachting because after being at Azimut for many years, he set up an office here in Lavagna with Nuovo Porto, but what impressed me about him was that he bought Fraser Yachts and thus became one of the main players in yachting on large boats. So Agliardi left Azimut. Vitelli met me 6 months later and said, 'I need to rebuild a commercial team.' We talked, we liked each other. And obviously I had never been on a boat, I didn't know English, so big disadvantages. But I had the same professors he had in economics and commerce. I showed him my grade book with the grades and said, 'OK, let's try.' As soon as the interview ended, he said, 'But you know nothing about boats, you don't know English, I have to send you to study, so I can't pay you.' And I said, 'Doctor, I'm 23, I've been asking my father for money for cigarettes my whole life, it's not a problem. You give me the pack of Marlboro every day.' 'Is it true that you also worked as an electrician?' 'Sure, to buy the yellow Fiat 126 I used to go to university.' So in the summer after my high school diploma, I worked for a company that did maintenance at Fiat. Fiat closed in August for production, but in August they did maintenance on the plants. So that month I worked, and with that money I bought the used yellow Fiat 126. But there I learned a very important thing: maintenance contracts are done on a cost-plus basis because you don't know how many hours it will take. So when I went to work in the morning, we worked from 8 to 10, then when the emotional tension of Fiat dropped, my boss would lock us in a small room and we would play cards until 4 in the afternoon, then we would go out and finish the plant. So I learned in life never to do cost-plus contracts.

Well, I would say everything, because with Paolo I learned the trade, I learned to work, I learned tenacity, I learned professionalism, I learned to suffer, working a lot. I remember after 6 months he sent me to study in America for 6 months in Miami. I returned with fluent English. At the same time, I finished my studies, I graduated. And a very strong chemistry began. Just to remember, I am his best man, he is the godfather of my first daughter. So the relationship was very intense. And on Sundays I would go to work at Vitelli's house. Vitelli always worked, and what did he do? He looked at invoices, signed invoices, gave them to me, I looked at them and he said this is good, this is not good. So really the nitty-gritty. And one day I said to him, 'But Doctor, you come from a wealthy family, why do you work every Sunday?' I thought in my fantasy that someone born into a wealthy family has a better, easier life, spends money, has fun. And he said to me, 'You know, we used the formal 'lei' until we were 44, so he said, 'Dear Doctor, if one has a patrimony, he must work hard to maintain it, otherwise it will be taken away.' And that was one of the many teachings. So today that I am in a very different economic situation, I testify that Simone, Alessia, who live with me, I work every Sunday and very often even after dinner, because unfortunately it's like that. One thinks that being an entrepreneur of a large company, millions and millions of euros, but then the commitments, the responsibilities, the sense of duty are such that you do nothing but work. So Paolo was a mentor for me in every sense.

Yes, there was a very intense relationship in which we also helped each other a lot in difficult moments. Because in life there are not only easy moments or successes. Azimut was a company. I entered Azimut with 25 employees and 20 million in revenue. After 22 years, in 2004, the company had 850 million in revenue with 3000 employees. But it wasn't always just growth. In '87-'88, after buying the Benetti shipyard and doing the Azimut Challenger, buying Benetti meant going from a company of 25 employees to one of 200 employees with their unions. The unions were very strong. Clients would come from Japan to launch the 45-meter Benetti, and the unions would picket, not letting them enter the shipyard, not allowing the launch. If you take a plane from Japan to launch your boat and they don't let you in the shipyard, that's a problem. That was the reality of the mid to late 80s. So there were very difficult moments in which I supported him and he supported me. Then he divorced, then I divorced. So life has its ups and downs. So I must say he was certainly a surrogate father for me.

Master, we didn't feel like doing it. Yes, a mix of these things. First of all, the desire after having been in the highest and most important seat in yachting, Benetti was the world's leading company in the production of motor yachts. I was the right-hand man of the owner, I was there for 22 years, I bought Benetti with him, I did everything possible and imaginable as a manager. So the desire to do something more, and after that it could only be entrepreneurship. And also a different vision of the future. I remember when he bought the Livorno shipyard from the Orlando family. I went to see it. We were supposed to build Benetti boats. Going to see it, the company was spread over 500,000 square meters. You have been to La Spezia, where we build 250 million euros worth of metal boats, and our La Spezia shipyard is 50,000 square meters, one tenth of what that was. And I think Carla also remembers this passage, because I said, 'How many Benetti do you want to build here?' That's where the two different visions were born: being bigger, building as many boats as possible, or being the one that makes the most beautiful boats and has the highest margins. Because in my opinion, in life, especially when building a luxury product, between Louis Vuitton and Hermès, I respect Hermès much more than Vuitton. Vuitton is a giant, it has bought many companies, it has grown a lot, but the quality in communication, in the product, in being unique, is more understated. And at that moment there were two different paths. I understood that it was not the path I wanted, and I went to look for my own path.

I looked for it in San Lorenzo because of Iannetti, and I must say that I am very pleased that Saverio is here, because Saverio was the first person I called. I said, 'Look, I intend to buy San Lorenzo. What do you think?' Why San Lorenzo? Because San Lorenzo was the company that with 40 million euros in revenue built seven boats a year, made to measure, of the highest quality. I remember we had the boat show here downstairs, and next to Azimut there were the San Lorenzo boats. I looked at them, I admired them because they were very well cared for in every detail, they were solid, large, and I saw that the clients who came and went on the San Lorenzo boats... At that time there were three shipyards that had the palm: the San Lorenzo shipyard, the Pisa shipyard of Mr. Sosteni, and the Lavagna shipyard of which the president was... I don't remember the name, Ceccarelli. These three boats were right next to Azimut, and I saw clients entering these boats who didn't come to Azimut. It was a class, a style, a different world. So I always aspired to it. When I decided to leave Azimut to make my own way, I learned that Iannetti was not in good health, 75 years old, had no children, and this thing I'll tell you because it's also the moment I met Alessia, because it was a package, not only the San Lorenzo shipyard but also Alessia. So one morning I woke up early, I hadn't slept all night, and I told my ex-wife, 'Look, I'm going to Ameglia because I want to meet Iannetti.' I had an idea in mind. I left without an appointment, arrived in Ameglia at 10 in the morning, called, and they put me through to Alessia, because Alessia was Iannetti's collaborator, she handled all the commercial side and was his personal assistant for all details. So Alessia said, 'No, Iannetti is not here.' I said, 'Please, call him and tell him I am Massimo Perotti, I want to talk to him. I'm outside the shipyard with the car.' She called me back after 5 minutes and said, 'Look, I spoke with Iannetti, he doesn't want to meet you because he doesn't sell to Azimut.' I said, 'Listen, have patience, insist, tell him that I am not here on behalf of Azimut, I am here on my own behalf. I would like to have a coffee.' So Alessia made me wait a quarter of an hour, and it was premonitory because I have waited many times a quarter of an hour with Alessia. So she called me back and said, 'OK, come.'

The hardest year of my life. Then he sat down, pulled out a drawer, and handed me 15 business cards saying, 'These are all the people who want to buy the shipyard.' So a minute later I started negotiating the price, and that's how it started. Why did he make me do that difficult year? I must say it was a difficult year because I came from a very large company with 3000 employees where, thanks to Vitelli's trust in me, I had great independence. I would buy 50 million worth of MTU engines with a phone call, I would say 'Paolo, done,' and it was done. And in that year with Iannetti, I had no delegation for anything. I would discuss with him in the evening what to do, go do it in the morning, and in the afternoon he would cancel everything because he wasn't used to working with managers. It was a company of 42 million euros. So Marco Vitti, who was my right-hand man for many years, worked as commercial director for Iannetti and prepared letters, and the letters were signed and sent to clients by him. He signed the contracts. That was his way of managing, an artisan company. But it served a purpose. Let me give you an example. After a few months, I went to Iannetti and said, 'Mr. Iannetti, the clients are not paying according to the contract, they are all late. I am reminding them.' He said, 'No, no, for heaven's sake.' I came from a company where if a client was one day late, the lawyers would be called. Vitelli's company is very aggressive from a certain point of view, as it should be. You have to get paid. Iannetti said, 'No, no, don't call. When the client comes to the shipyard, over a good fish dinner, we will tell him it's time to pay.' So there I learned a completely different way of doing business. So in the first 20 years I had learned the hardness of business, dealing with suppliers from that point of view. Saverio can certainly tell you what the story was. But in that year I learned a softer, less loud, more understated way, which is what San Lorenzo still is today. So from there begins the challenge with San Lorenzo after this year of purgatory.

Quite. Let's say I was lucky at the end of the 80s, because at that time, after the Red Brigades, the unions, etc., the end of the 80s became a golden moment for the 90s, in which there was a real social elevator that I certainly took. Obviously I had to work hard, I had to commit myself a lot, but the elevator was there. Today it's not always like that. But there is also another thing: today young people have less of this aspiration. I notice that starting with my children, but also many young people who work in the company. We are 750, all white-collar because all production is outsourced. Well, of these 750, more than 300 are under 35, so almost 50% of the company. And I notice in them life goals that are not the ones we had in the 80s and 90s, where it was work, work, work, work, work, goals. They have the desire for a balanced life, so commitment and satisfaction at work but also time dedicated to the people they love, family, themselves, sports. I think it's fairer, because now that I am 63, I will turn 64 in 20 days, end of October, I was born in 1960. I think that at the end of their lives they will probably have lived a more balanced, more equilibrated life. It's a new way of approaching life.

Delicate moments, I act in first person. The entrepreneur alone, yes, like that. I remember a criticism made by the left of Berlusconi at the time because he, as prime minister, had lost a day to go see the street in Genoa where the G7 or G8 would pass, I don't remember anymore, G8, because he wanted to see what was at the windows and had the laundry taken down. Instead, I think Berlusconi was right: when you have the powerful of the earth coming to Italy for a meeting, it must be perfect, because there are moments when you have to be perfect. So you have to put yourself in first person to control everything. The 60th anniversary party of San Lorenzo in 2018, the year after there was the stock exchange listing, the year before I became a Knight of Labor. It was a delicate passage for me, three questions, and it was a delicate moment for San Lorenzo and for me. So I took special care of that party. My assistant, Mrs. Capozzi, I don't know if she's still here, she works in the company, on Sunday she went to the hospital for stress, and I got sciatica for three months. The stress, but it was a beautiful party.

Yes, partly. In the sense that everything that was my life at the shipyard was always on the boat. When I went home to Turin, I went home. Yes, maybe I would have lived even more if Alessia hadn't threatened to leave me. So, I had to know the San Lorenzo boats. Living on board a boat even in winter, not only in summer, makes you understand if the boats are well insulated, if you can handle the cold in summer and the heat in winter. I looked for a house and it took me a few years because I wanted it particularly beautiful. When I found it, it took me 6 years to renovate it. So at a certain point Alessia told me, 'I'm tired of living on a boat, I want to live in a house like all the ladies in the world.' And I said, 'Don't worry, at Easter we'll move.' Then Christmas came, I said at Christmas, Easter, the third time, she said, 'Enough now.' So we went to live in a house.

But I must tell you that I gave myself discounts before the stock exchange. Now with the stock exchange, the discount is decided by the gentleman with the hats, Professor Musumeci, who is head of the related parties committee. So it's he who tells me at what price I can buy the boat. But for you, what does it mean to own a boat? We saw various prototypes, normally especially the new ones with new concepts, I test them to understand if the idea is right, if they work well, how to correct them. Now there is the Bluegame BGM 75, which is the first multihull catamaran built by the group. I bought that one and I will use it. It's the only way to really take care in detail, like the party, also the product. The product of my clients, this pleases San Lorenzo clients a lot because they know that in the end the product is, I won't say perfect because it doesn't exist in this world, but very well cared for, very well verified.

So, there have been, yes. Because I bought San Lorenzo in 2005, 65%, by selling 6% of the shares of Azimut, as I told you at the beginning. I was not from a rich family. So what I had done in 22 years, Dr. Vitelli knows, also Carlo is not one who gives you big bonuses, he gave you shares if you did well. Accumulated in 22 years, I sold them, with that money I bought 65% of San Lorenzo, with 35% financed by the company that had also bought my San Lorenzo shares. So in 2005 I did not get along with Guido De Vivo, who was the CEO, whose son is now one of the best managers in the nautical industry, Stefano De Vivo. I see there is someone from Ferretti, so confirm that he is one of the best. And so in July 2008 I decided to buy the remaining 35%. To buy that 35% I took on a debt of 50 million euros. On July 31, I went on board one of the boats, the Coco San Lorenzo 92 feet, and I said to my family, 'Finally I have 100% of the company, from now on I can relax.' You know what happened on September 15 of that year. And so the worst period in the history of the nautical industry was born, for 7 years, 6-7 years. I faced it with a debt of 50 million. In those 7 years, the reaction was very strong. We did not lose a single employee, we did not lay off anyone, we did not even have a single day of furlough. We started the crisis with 200 million in revenue, we ended it with 200 million in revenue. You know what happened in the nautical industry in those years. Every 6 months I had to pay the installment and I never postponed the payment by a single day. So, as they say, head down, hands on, lots of work and lots of commitment, we move forward.

Certainly, it was an important passage. Let me first make a step back regarding Vitelli, because there is a passage that shows how intelligent and capable Paolo Vitelli is. I remember that when we finished building the new shipyards, which you saw on the bike tour, he came to me and said, 'Massimo, I'm going to become president of UCINA.' I said, 'Doctor, without you, no, no.' He said, 'I have to get out of your way, otherwise you won't grow.' Great entrepreneurial intelligence. Let's not forget that Paolo Vitelli created three great managers: myself, who built San Lorenzo; Carla, who was at the top of Beneteau for 10 years, a French chauvinist company, and you can imagine what it means for an Italian woman to be at the top of that company; and Vincenzo Poerio, who is also a manager of great ability. So Vitelli created not only Azimut Benetti but much more. And so he went to be president of UCINA for 8 years.

The handover came to me. My turn was in 2016-2017. Saverio and Anton came to me and said, 'Massimo, it's a very difficult moment for the nautical industry, we need to give it a push.' At that time I worked night and day to keep the company afloat, it was the only way. They said, 'There's no alternative, you have to do it.' Honestly, we couldn't even put together the money to hold the Genoa Boat Show. Those were moments when Azimut Benetti left, saying it was no longer worth doing it. Ferretti itself didn't come. The two big Italian groups didn't come, the English didn't come, the Americans didn't come. It was very hard. So I couldn't say no. Alessia knows how many nights I spent writing speeches because I couldn't do it during the day. But in the face of certain things, you can't say no. You also have to gather the requests, the opportunities. It was also an opportunity because UCINA gives you visibility. Through UCINA I met Carlo Calenda, we respected each other. Carlo Calenda became a minister in Italy, the minister who chooses the 24 people to present to President Mattarella to become Knights of Labor. I perhaps became a Knight of Labor thanks to having become president of UCINA. That passage, the knighthood, is one of those moments in life that you enjoy, a reward for all the sacrifices you have made in your work.

Well, I remember my father as a child, we waited for him at one o'clock on Sundays to eat together because he worked 6 days a week plus Sunday morning. It was quite common in the 1960s. But beyond that, he always had two jobs, so from 6 in the morning to 10 at night, and he was always very little at home because he worked a lot. So this is a life lesson. For better or worse, children do what they learn every day from their family, from home. So my father gave me that sense of commitment, responsibility, and also sacrifice, because when you work many hours in a row, it's a sacrifice. A physical sacrifice if you work manually, it tires you, but even if you sit at a desk, it's tiring. Then when I was 22-23 years old, my father, as a craftsman, perhaps couldn't give me much more than what he had given me. Well, the other father was Paolo, who gave me another push, another life lesson. You think, you work a lot and have worked a lot, perhaps a bit too much. If I could go back, what would I do? I would work a bit less.

Compliments, before you ask me another question, I would like to say this. You saw the first day of listing. Very often companies bring the product they make. The shipyard brought the bow of a ship made of papier-mâché. And San Lorenzo, we brought the employees with their overalls and helmets, because this is San Lorenzo: respect, esteem, and consideration for those who make the company every day. It's not just me. And I remember that at 7 in the morning, because it starts at 7:30, there were 400 people all in overalls and helmets from various hotels near the stock exchange square, they flowed into the stock exchange. And the Milanese looked at each other and said, 'Are they on strike again? Is there a new strike?' But no, they were all San Lorenzo employees coming to celebrate this important day dressed in their overalls.

If you do important things, growth, you live it a bit every day. There are successes every day. You do a boat show, sell many boats, close a good balance sheet. That day I felt I had done something important in my life for many people around me. First of all for my children, because by listing the company on the stock exchange, you don't force your children to work in the company. Your children can decide to be managers and work in the company, or be shareholders because they don't feel like living the very hard life of an entrepreneur. But also for my employees. Perhaps if someone else had gone public, I wouldn't have bought from San Lorenzo, because when a company grows beyond a certain limit, you no longer look at a bonus of 50 or 100,000. They give you shares, and if you can sell those shares every day because the company is listed, the so-called stock options have great value. This value serves to keep good managers and attract new ones. And if you can't sell these shares to anyone, they become illiquid, so they have no value.

So an entrepreneur lists the company first of all for his own employees and to be stronger in the labor market to attract the best managers to the company. Obviously then there is external communication, the possibility of having better relationships with banks, the ability to have credit. All stakeholders working around San Lorenzo, including suppliers and dealers, benefit because the company becomes enormously stronger but also more controlled. So we also learned to do quarterly reports, half-yearly reports, and so there is a rigor in the company that comes from the stock exchange, because you know it no longer depends only on yourself. You have shareholders who believed in you and obviously control you. So overall it's an improvement from all points of view.

Absolutely not. Obviously I don't deprive myself of anything, but I am quite detached. I think the big leap in a person's life happens when they go from 100,000 euros to 5-10 million euros, which I did when I was at Azimut. After that, whether the wealth is 50, 100, or 500, it doesn't change much. You are much more careful to ensure that your children don't grow up in the wrong way. When we decided to go public with Cecilia and Cesare, we also decided to create a foundation. We created the San Lorenzo Foundation. We don't call it the Perotti Foundation, we called it the San Lorenzo Foundation because we ask all our clients for a contribution when they come to the launch or take delivery of the boat. Buying a boat, I shouldn't say it loudly because then I won't sell any more, but it's a bit absurd because it's a very high cost, it costs every day to maintain it, when you resell it you lose a lot of money. So it's certainly an emotional choice, not a rational one, especially in the Western world where there is a bit of a sense of guilt for having too much, for showing off too much. When they come to the launch to take delivery of the boat, the moment when they are most tender, we put the foundation's donation box in front of them and say, 'Listen, give a contribution, we do it to help those who have less.' And it's difficult when you take delivery of a boat worth 10 million euros not to take something and give it all. Everything that is given by our clients is doubled by the family, so we accumulate money that we then use to do good. A beautiful thing.

Yes, this one for sure. Yes, also Caterina. Certainly, I am a lucky man, I tell you. You, you granddaughter? No, because at 63 I have a granddaughter, and among all my sixty-year-old friends, I'm the only one with a granddaughter, except one who has three. But I also have the fortune of having both my father and my mother, so having great-grandparents, the granddaughter, a wonderful partner, children who have grown up well, one works with me, the other is an architect in Milan. And perhaps, I struggle to say it because I'm afraid to say it, it's the happiest moment of my life.

A good question. Well, first of all, I have never made a sailing boat. I was close to buying one, but yes, but since I am tenacious and almost always in life I have achieved my goals, I think I will soon make a sailing boat. That's a good resolution. Because it's sustainable, and we are moving towards a sustainable world.

Basically, I enjoy working. That is, Carla and I took 3 years to make the BGM 75, the first catamaran in the group's history. We had never built a catamaran, neither she nor I. And today I learned that the Polish shipyard called Sun Reef, which is one of the main players in catamarans, announced that it will put on the market a new range of boats that, instead of being 11 meters wide, are 8 meters wide. So we made the first catamaran in our history, and those who make catamarans have decided to make them like the one we made. This is perhaps what drives me every morning: trying to make new, innovative products. The asymmetric, no one had ever done it before. The SX line, a 50-meter will come out with the engine room in the lower deck, recovering all the space. The idea of making new, innovative products that are appreciated on the market and also, if you will, copied.

I'll tell you this: this morning we were with politicians, I had Alberto Galassi next to me, we are friends. We saw a photo that passed by, it was a beautiful black and white photo. While we were looking, a boat arrived from the sea. He said, 'Massimo, for a boat of yours, what's it like if you arrive late?' Look, look, I looked carefully and it was an Astondoa called AX8, and it's a copy of the SX88. When it entered the boat, we looked and he told me, 'It's identical to the SX88.' I said, 'Yes, they copied it completely.' Because it came to mind that the same company, Astondoa, 25 years ago, I was at Azimut, I had produced the Z46, which was a beautiful boat. One day Norberto Ferretti called me, he was in Spain at Astondoa, and he said, 'Massimo, do you build boats in Spain?' I said, 'Absolutely not.' He said, 'God, here there is a boat identical to the 46.' So it's the second time Astondoa has copied a boat of mine. It almost doesn't displease you, it's a pleasure to say it, because it doesn't displease me, but it makes you a bit angry, anyway.

Yes, obviously it's a goal. But I have had great balance with them. First of all, Cecilia is an architect in Milan, so I think she will never work at San Lorenzo, and that's fine because with two children, it's better to have only one in the company, not two, in my opinion. Cesare has been working at San Lorenzo for 3 years, but he knows perfectly that at any moment he can decide to do what he wants. In these three years, he came to me twice and said, 'Dad, I'm leaving, I want to go work in America.' I said, 'Okay, tomorrow morning let's see where you want to go, let's organize together.' So I never pushed him, and punctually the next morning he wakes up and continues at San Lorenzo. I had great luck: Cesare started working at Bluegame, so in a small company, like I started, with a manager-entrepreneur as good as Vitelli, Carla, whom I thank very much because she worked like an aunt for Cesare. We are together, there is a photo I would like to see again, a photo of all four of us at the beginning. You passed it, it's a photo of us with Vitelli. Here it is. That was a fantastic work group, believe me. And we were 40 years old, so it was a moment of great momentum for the company. So it's a desire, a goal, but it doesn't have to be at all costs.

I have met the richest men in the world in these 40 years, and many of these families were destroyed because the parents had expectations for their children to manage their own company. But being an entrepreneur is a great sacrifice. So either you are willing to do it, otherwise you ruin your life. So my children know that obviously I would be pleased, but they have no obligation. And I think that by doing so, they will probably stay. After the first three years at Bluegame, it was in the plans. Cesare in September resigned and was hired at San Lorenzo, so he will begin his path at San Lorenzo. I hope so. I know he has many people around him who care about him. He is a boy who always presents himself in a very generous way, never presumptuous. There is a phrase: when he resigned from Bluegame to move to San Lorenzo, and I thank Carla very much, she wrote a letter in which she indicated this passage to the company. In this letter there was a phrase that pleased me very much: she said, 'Cesare in these three years never made his name weigh on anyone, he always presented himself with great humility.' I think it's fundamental. He still has to prove everything.

Let's say no, I wouldn't have imagined it. But to go back to Ghidella, when there was the stock exchange listing and therefore a large inflow of money into my family, I remembered that when Ghidella left Fiat, I admired him very much. My goal was to become like him. He took a severance package of 80 million, 80 billion lire, sorry, which is 45 million today. Well, I would never have imagined doing much, much more than that. And the last photo, however, was this: this man here instead has centered and realized the dreams of that boy we saw before. Certainly, yes. Certainly, yes. He is satisfied, let's say satisfied. I repeat, if I could go back, perhaps I would work a bit less, maybe a bit less, but with a bit more balance. So I think that today's young people are better than us, as almost always, because as you get older you say, 'Ah, but the young people of today...' No, the world goes forward, and the life aspirations of today's young people, in my opinion, are better than those we had. For us there was too much work, too much commitment. My father came home at one on Sunday. I very often work on Sundays. I am sure that my children will not work on Saturdays and Sundays. So that means they have made a leap in quality in their lives.