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Andy Thomis
Chief Executive, Cohort

Cohort plc - Results FY26 Webinar recording with Q&A

🎥 Jul 17, 2026 📺 Equity Development ⏱ 55m 👁 41 views
Andy Thomis (CEO) and Simon Walther (FD) conducted a Webinar covering Cohort's record results for the financial year ended 30 April 2026. Highlights included a revenue increase of +13%YoY and an order book of £619m stretching out to 2037. The war in Iran, ongoing conflict in Ukraine, and continued Asia-Pacific tension mean that defence challenges have multiplied and accelerated rather than diminished. In the UK, detailed spending plans highlight new priorities that look well aligned with Cohort’s specialised technology. Our Fair Value per share estimate is raised from 1930p to 2125p. The f...
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About Andy Thomis

Andy Thomis, chief executive of Cohort plc, presented the company's annual results for the 2025/26 financial year in July 2026, reporting record revenue exceeding £306 million and a 32% increase in adjusted operating profit to over £36 million. He attributed the performance to growing global defense expenditure, which he stated reached $2.63 trillion in 2025, and highlighted demand for technologies including counter-drone systems, anti-submarine warfare capabilities, and seabed warfare solutions. Thomis noted that the company's order book stood at £619 million, with contracts extending to 2037. Discussing the geopolitical landscape, Thomis said that "the risks that we now see coming from that are real" and that they "have the potential to affect us here in the United Kingdom." He stated that "we have to plan for a reduced US presence in Europe and a reduced US commitment to NATO because those signals have been very clearly sent," adding that Europe is "responding very strongly in terms of defense spending." Thomis also emphasized Cohort's strategy of organic growth, targeted acquisitions, and investment in research and development, and noted that the company had increased its dividend every year since its IPO 20 years ago.

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Transcript (57 segments)
A
Andy Thomis0:03
Good afternoon and thanks for joining us. I'm Andy Thomis. I'm the chief executive at Cohort PLC and I'm here with Simon Walther who's Cohort's finance director. Cohort for anyone who doesn't know provides advanced defense technologies and some services to the UK and its allied nations around the world. And Simon and I are here to present our latest financial results and to explain some of the technical innovation, the geopolitics, and the other market drivers that support that growth. So a word about our capabilities. Cohort's businesses all share a common purpose in developing advanced defense technologies to contribute to our customers' national security and defense, and each of our businesses brings its own specialist expertise. Collectively they deliver innovative solutions that help customers address what are increasingly complex operational challenges. And we operate through two divisions: communications and intelligence, and sensors and effectors. And across those two divisions we offer really quite a broad range of capabilities as you can see from this slide. Now I'll talk more about demand patterns later in the presentation but just looking at this list I would highlight the counter-drone capability, the anti-submarine systems, seabed warfare, others as well, but these are all areas that are clearly relevant to the current needs of defense customers.
We can move on to the next slide. As a background to the results I thought it would be helpful to show you Cohort's total shareholder return since our IPO which is 20 years ago this year. This is our 20th anniversary. And the chart shows it benchmarked against both the AIM All-Share index and our peer group of listed UK defense companies. And as you can see from the chart over the period Cohort has significantly outperformed the broader market and delivered returns well ahead of our peer group. And as you might expect, while there has naturally been some share price volatility over that extended period, the overall trend is sustained growth, underpinned by strong operational performance and increasing order intake. And since 2022 at least, a favorable defense spending environment. And that sharp acceleration that you can see from 2024 onwards reflects growing investor recognition of Cohort's market position and the opportunities arising from increased defense and security investment in the UK and across our other markets in its allied nations. And the conclusion from all of this is that we've been able to create value consistently for shareholders over a long period through the successful execution of our strategy.
If we could move to the next slide because this slide shows in a bit more detail how we've delivered that shareholder return. The chart on the left shows the progression in adjusted operating profits since 2006, our IPO, and from a relatively modest base. We've steadily expanded the business through a combination of organic growth, and that's underpinned by investment in both technology and capacity, and strategic acquisitions. And despite periods of economic uncertainty and changing geopolitical conditions, and I'd pick out the arrival of austerity with the coalition government in 2010 and the post-COVID hangover in 2022, overall the trajectory has remained strongly upward, culminating in, as I will explain in a moment, a record performance this year. And the chart on the right demonstrates our commitment to delivering value to shareholders through our progressive dividend policy. Since 2006, the dividend has increased every year, reflecting both the resilience of our business model and the confidence we have in the group's long-term prospects. And I'm reliably informed that as a company that has increased its dividend every year over a 20-year period, we are now officially a dividend hero. I'm not sure how that lands with you, but anyway, it sounds pretty good to me.
So can we move on to the next slide please because this shows the financial highlights of our 2526 year, the year finished in April 2026, and it was another outstanding year for Cohort. We delivered record revenue and record adjusted operating profit. The revenue has exceeded 300 million for the first time, now over 306 million, and the operating profit grew by 32% to more than 36 million. And of course with that we've enhanced our margin as well, moving it towards our longer-term aim of mid-teens. Demand for our products and services remained robust throughout the year. And I'm pleased to say that our order intake of 314.2 million exceeded our revenue and that brought us to a record year-end order book of nearly 620 million. And that provides excellent visibility of future revenues and contracted work which goes out to 2037. As expected, operating cash flow and net funds were lower than the exceptionally strong levels reported last year, primarily reflecting working capital movements and investments associated with the growth of the business, about which we will have more to say. Nevertheless, the group remains in a positive net funds position and continues to maintain a strong balance sheet. And we're very pleased to recommend a full year dividend of 17.9 pence, once again representing an increase of 10% on last year's. And that reflects the board's confidence in the group's continued success. So now I'd like to invite Simon to share some more details of our financial performance.
S
Simon Walther6:09
Thank you Andy and good afternoon to all of you. We move to the next slide please. This slide highlights performance of our two divisions: communications and intelligence, and sensors and effectors, both of which continue to benefit from strong and growing demand across their respective markets. Starting with communications and intelligence, revenue increased by 27% to 158.9 million while adjusted operating profit rose by more than 50% to 32.4 million. The operating margin improved significantly to 20.4%, reflecting strong program execution and a favorable mix of high margin activities. During the year, the division secured several important contract awards, including integrated communication systems, networks, and satellite communication systems for the Portuguese Navy. We also continue to see strong demand for drone capabilities, resulting in significant contract wins with the UK MOD. Turning to sensors and effectors, revenue for this division was relatively flat at 147.5 million. Profitability was below last year, mainly a result of disposal of our high margin non-core transport business earlier in the financial year. The order book and pipeline for this division give us confidence that it will grow in the coming year and improve its net margin with improved operational performance at Chess, the first deliveries of sonar systems for the Italian submarine project, and closure of low margin projects at SCA. The combined offerings of our communications and intelligence and sensors and effectors businesses remains a key strength of Cohort, providing both resilience and exposure to a broad range of defense and security capability requirements across our international customer base.
Go to the next slide. This slide shows the factors behind the net funds movement throughout the year. We moved from opening net funds of 5.3 million to net debt of 32.5 million at the half year primarily due to significant working capital outflow associated with the execution of major programs. As expected, second half cash improvement was much improved, generating an 18.1 million working capital inflow alongside strong profitability. Consequently, the group returned to a positive net funds position of 2.2 million at the year end. This demonstrates that the movements in cash were largely timing related and that the underlying business remained strongly cash generative.
In this next slide here we see the capital allocation over the past 5 years. During this period the group has generated 142 million of cash from operations, providing the flexibility to invest in future growth while continuing to deliver returns to shareholders. We invested approximately 60 million organically across the business including the completion of our state-of-the-art manufacturing facility in K Germany. Investment in Crate Sense and the development of our Enlighter technologies in response to the increasing demand for undersea infrastructure protection, and Andy will refer to these later in the presentation. These investments strengthen our capabilities, support innovation, and position the group for future growth. Alongside organic investment, we deployed just over 40 million pounds on acquisitions net of funds raised, completing the EM Solutions and Interactive Technical Solutions transactions. These acquisitions have expanded our technology portfolio into satellite telecommunications and broadened our regional growth opportunities particularly in the Australian and Asia-Pacific markets. We are pleased to have maintained our commitment to shareholder returns, distributing 30 million pounds through dividends over the last five years. Overall, this allocation of capital reflects our strategy of investing for growth while maintaining a strong balance sheet and delivering growing returns to shareholders.
Looking ahead, we enter 2627 with a strong level of visibility supported by an order book that already underpins 88% of expected revenue for the year combined with an encouraging pipeline of opportunities across our markets. This gives us confidence in our growth outlook. As we look towards 2030, our strategic objectives remain unchanged. We continue to target a net margin in the mid-teens and expect to deliver double-digit percentage earnings growth per annum in the coming year and the two years after that through a combination of organic growth and operational leverage improving our net margins. The chart on the right illustrates our three-year capital allocation framework. We expect to generate approximately 140 million of cash from operations. Of this, around 60 million will be reinvested in the business to support organic growth initiatives including 15 million pounds on a new facility in Horsham for Chess which should be completed in early 2028 and enable increased capacity to meet demand and improved efficiency to achieve mid-teens margins. It also includes spend on innovation and future capability development. After this planned investment, we expect around 80 million pounds of cash generation to remain available. Assuming the continuation of our progressive dividend policy, we anticipate returning approximately 30 million pounds to shareholders through dividends over the coming 3-year period. This leaves around 50 million of available funds on top of which we have a significant new bank facility. Together, these provide significant flexibility to pursue value-enhancing opportunities, including strategic acquisitions while maintaining a strong balance sheet. Overall, our guidance reflects both confidence in the underlying performance of the business and the disciplined approach to capital allocation that balances investment, shareholder returns, and future growth opportunities. With that, I'll hand back to Andy.
A
Andy Thomis12:20
Thank you, Simon. And before we move on to the strategic context, I wanted to highlight some operational initiatives that we've taken in the last year. If we can move on to the next slide, please. Earlier this year, we appointed Chris Axel as the group's first chief operating officer. And Chris has joined us from Leonardo where he held multiple technical and leadership roles including vice president surveillance and protection technologies, vice president sensors, and most recently senior vice president integrated sensing and protection where he was responsible for two of Leonardo's major UK facilities. He brings extensive experience and expertise in managing business operations within the defense sector and adds deep industry knowledge and values to the group headquarters team. And as COO, Chris will work alongside Simon and me to provide oversight and strengthen operational performance across the group. He'll also take over from me the day-to-day relationship with certain of our operating businesses and support me more widely across the range of my responsibilities including identifying potential acquisition targets. Next slide please. Chris's appointment has enabled us to take several initiatives with the aim of enhancing our operational performance. So we've launched under Chris's leadership a group forum for engineering, operations, and supply chain teams, creating opportunities to share best practice, solve common challenges, and build on the collective experience of our businesses. And we now plan to create a project management forum again under Chris's leadership, further strengthening program delivery across the group, and that will include the introduction of a group-wide project life cycle framework to provide a consistent approach to bidding, project execution, and governance. And in addition, and more specifically focused on Chess, we're introducing there integrated project teams, bringing together the key disciplines required for successful delivery under a single structure. And this approach is improving accountability, decision making, and program execution. And that's helping to drive on-time delivery and consequently customer satisfaction. We're also about to invest about 15 million pounds moving Chess from its current 13 buildings at a single site in Horsham to a new facility that will make a big contribution to its operational efficiency. And collectively, these initiatives are enabling us to enhance our operational capability right across the Cohort group. If we have the next slide, please.
So in the section coming up now I'd like to share some of the strategic highlights from the past 12 months and to talk about the outlook for future years. The three components of our strategy are to grow organically, to accelerate that growth through targeted acquisitions, and to maintain sound culturally rooted governance to underpin that growth. And in terms of capital allocation that translates into two key areas: internal investment in new products, technologies, and facilities, and external investment in acquisitions. And this slide focuses on the first of those two areas: how Cohort continues to invest in technical innovation that provides solutions to the defense challenges facing our customers. So taking these in turn, our Crate Sense towed array sonar solution is a key anti-submarine warfare capability designed for both crewed and uncrewed platforms. And the focus is on delivering a flexible, modular, and scalable system with a small footprint, lightweight, and low power requirements. And this unique combination of features makes it suitable for a wide range of naval customers and platform types. And demand is increasing for cost-effective anti-submarine capabilities based on uncrewed vessels as navies look to expand maritime surveillance and deterrence. Staying with the underwater battle space, we are developing the Enlightas products to protect underwater infrastructure. And Enlighter is a passive underwater surveillance system designed to provide persistent monitoring of undersea infrastructure like internet cables or gas and oil pipelines. And working alongside Enlighter, which I think you can just about see at the top of that graphic, is a sort of small torpedo that provides an active countermeasure capability enabling threats to be intercepted and neutralized. And the third example in satellite communications is the development of our combined optical and radio frequency terminal. And this technology integrates traditional radio frequency satellite communications with high-capacity lasers within a single antenna system. And it's an approach that has the potential to deliver faster communications, greater resilience, and operational flexibility supporting future defense satellite networks. The laser communication system, although it's limited to use in suitable atmospheric conditions, is effectively unjammable, which is a vital capability in time of conflict. And together, these technologies are good examples of what we're doing to address the evolving needs of defense customers as they respond to growing risks and to the changing nature of conflict. If we can move on to the next slide, please.
The second area of strategic investment I wanted to highlight is acquisitions. Over the years since our IPO, we've executed seven major transactions and indeed all seven of the businesses that are part of the group now are the result of acquisitions. And there's always a risk associated with acquisitions. But our industry knowledge and our experienced team have enabled us to manage these with some success, as the slide I think demonstrates. I particularly highlight our very first acquisition, MASS, which last year generated operating profit of almost 11 million pounds and that's not far short of the 13.5 million pound purchase price back in 2006. And our most recent acquisition, EM Solutions, also showed a notable and strong improvement in performance after just one year. Now, we haven't executed any new acquisitions in the 2526 financial year, although we do continue to see a steady flow of opportunities and we review these carefully against our criteria. What we are looking for is successful, profitable defense technology businesses of the right size and with a culture of innovation and agility. And beyond that, we're looking for exposure to growth opportunities within the overall market and some kind of sustainable competitive advantage whether that's based on technology or incumbency or historic relationships. And over the last 20 years this acquisition strategy has been a driving force in the growth of the group and we expect that to continue into the future. If we can have the next slide please.
So let's turn to the demand picture. And we continue to see strong demand in response to what is still a deteriorating security environment and the ongoing conflicts that we see across the world, and obviously none of us should welcome that. The risks that we now see in Europe are very real. They have the potential to affect us here directly in the United Kingdom. And in regions of Europe where the threats are most pressing, governments are under pressure to upgrade and modernize their defense capabilities at speed. And this is where mid-tier businesses like those within the Cohort group have the agility and expertise to provide innovative solutions to those defense challenges. And in 2025, global defense spending reached a new peak of $2.63 trillion US. And that growth reflects the increasingly uncertain geopolitical environment and a widespread reassessment of national security priorities by governments around the world. And this chart shows how defense expenditure has grown since 2021 across the world, but excluding Russia and China, which are not great markets for us. As is clear, the North American market, of which all but a tiny sliver is the United States, remains the largest defense spender. But the fastest growth has come in Europe and in Asia. In Europe, the driver is clearly the continuing intense and bloody conflict in Ukraine. And as well as driving increased defense spending, the conflict has highlighted the importance of particular technologies like sea, air, and land drones for a range of tasks including reconnaissance, strike, as well as logistics. It's also highlighted the importance of air and missile defense systems. The UK's recent defense investment plan includes a strong focus on maritime capability to protect the North Atlantic region from Russian submarine incursion and interference with underwater infrastructure, and uncrewed vessels will play a major part in those plans. In Asia, it's Chinese investment in its armed forces together with increasingly aggressive use of particularly its navy and air force that have catalyzed the strong growth in defense spending. And that's notably strong in Japan, also in Taiwan, Australia, and the ASEAN nations. And although China is increasing spending in all areas of defense, its threat to its neighbors is significantly maritime in focus both on and below the sea surface. And in addition to those two big drivers, the continued instability in the Middle East, including the conflict between the US, Israel, and Iran, and the consequent regional security concerns, is also driving increased demand for defense technology, in particular, communications and intelligence solutions. And those trends align closely with the capabilities that we have across the Cohort group in communications, intelligence, cyber, electronic warfare, sonar, maritime systems, and counter-drone technologies. And that provides a supportive backdrop for long-term growth.
This slide highlights the strength and diversity of Cohort's geographic exposure and very importantly the alignment of our business with regions where defense spending is expected to grow most strongly over the coming years. It shows us a comparison between 2425 revenue, 2526 revenue, and the revenue that is held in our order book, breaking it down by percentage regionally. And again, you'll see the most striking features are the growing proportion of our output going to Europe and to Asia Pacific, with the proportion going to the UK and Australia reducing. Now, those increases are in line with the international demand patterns I've described a moment ago. In Australia, we're delivering our existing order book quite rapidly, but we expect that to be supplemented by some large opportunities in the next few years, which will change the look of that chart to a certain extent. In the UK, well, it's too early to say exactly what the consequences of the defense investment plan will be, but it's possible there may be a less rapid fall off if the new prime minister follows through on promises that he's made to increase defense spending beyond that set out in the DIP. Looking at the order book revenue, what's particularly encouraging is that it is diverse, well balanced across regions, and closely aligned with those markets where defense spending is increasing most rapidly. The UK remains an important source of revenue. But the trend illustrates our ability to tap those markets where the spending is growing.
If we can move on to the next slide, this chart shows a similar comparison between 2425, 2526, and our order book. But this time broken down by end-user domain. And what you can see here is that maritime remains our largest domain and has grown as a proportion of group revenue over the last year. And that trend is even more evident when we look at the order book where maritime programs account for about 80% of contracted future revenues, and that reflects the long-term nature of maritime defense programs which provide strong visibility and support sustainable growth over many years, and in this case right out to 2037. And our land domain work is also long-term. So those proportions represent our technical strengths which are particularly good in maritime and land, but also the demand patterns that I've described in Europe and Asia. The cyber and information work that we do is important. But the small proportion in the order reflects as much the relatively short-term nature of contracts in that area as it does overall demand. Air and space work remains substantial. But the other category which was noticeable in 2425 has now almost disappeared following the sale of our transport business last year. Overall we expect that future revenue will include a healthy balance of long duration maritime and other contracts supplemented by shorter duration orders in areas where agility is at a premium. And that long-term base of order book revenue provides an excellent starting point on which we will build our future growth.
Next slide please. So this line provides more detail on that very important order book. On the 30th of April 2026 the value of the order book stood at over 618 million. It has grown since of course, and as I mentioned that includes contracted revenue that will be recognized out to 2037. Of the total order book, approximately 264 million is scheduled for delivery this year, providing very strong revenue visibility, and importantly that's broadly balanced across our two operating segments with communications and intelligence contributing 128 million and sensors and effectors contributing 136 million. Looking further forward, a substantial proportion of the order book extends into later years, reflecting the long-term nature of many of the programs that we're working on, and that includes about 132 million scheduled for delivery beyond 2028-29. Overall, this runoff profile highlights both the quality and the longevity of our order book. It provides strong revenue visibility, supports confidence in our medium-term outlook, and gives us a solid platform from which to pursue further organic growth and new contract wins.
Thank you. And beyond that order book across both divisions, we see strong demand continuing which is being driven by the same geopolitical and defense spending trends that I've spoken about within communications and intelligence. We see significant opportunities for electronic warfare, secure communications, particularly in Europe, where lessons from the conflict in Ukraine are shaping procurement priorities. We're also pursuing major naval satellite communications opportunities in both the UK and Japan, while our electronic warfare and operational support capabilities are gaining increasing traction in export markets, including the Middle East.
The Portuguese Navy program provides an excellent example of how multiple cohort businesses can work together to deliver integrated solutions that combine communications networking and satcom technologies as well. Within sensors, we see a substantial pipeline of opportunities for counter-drone systems through established partnerships. Demand is also growing for technologies that can detect, monitor, and protect critical underwater infrastructure, reflecting increased concern around maritime security and seabed protection.
We continue to see strong opportunities for our sonar and sensor technologies as submarine and surface fleet modernization programs progress across a number of international markets. And programs like the Royal Thai Navy's new frigate demonstrate the benefits of collaboration across the group where we have four of our seven businesses independently working with Hanwha Ocean on that program, bringing together complementary technologies and expertise. And we also expect to benefit from investment associated with the UK's Atlantic Bastion initiative and wider NATO efforts to strengthen anti-submarine warfare and underwater infrastructure protection.
So overall the pipeline of opportunities is strong, reflecting the patterns of growing global expenditure and the market relevance of our products and technologies. Next slide please. So I'm almost coming to the end now. And as a final point, I wanted to summarize how we aim to generate value for our shareholders. First, as you've seen, we benefit from robust financial results, including strong cash generation and a healthy balance sheet. We remain focused on investing in areas that generate sustainable returns, prioritizing expenditure on research and development and on expanding capacity. Across the group, we maintain and invest in innovations that address mission-critical customer requirements and reflect the security challenges they face in today's world. And we're also well positioned through our access to growth markets and have demonstrated our agility and responsiveness to geographical market trends. Our acquisition strategy has been an important contributor to shareholder value creation. We have a proven track record of acquiring high-quality businesses and integrating them successfully, identifying opportunities to collaborate across the group where appropriate. And finally, we have a consistent dividend track record, having increased the dividend every year since IPO, and that reflects both the strength of the business and the board's confidence in the group's long-term prospects.
Move to the last slide, please. Before coming to a close, I wanted to take the opportunity to mention the great contribution to our success made by our management teams and employees across the group. And I'm grateful to all of them for the part that they've played in helping us to achieve these good results. It has been a successful first 20 years and we look towards the future with confidence and let me leave you with this extract from our preliminary statement. And also to say we'd be delighted to take any questions that you might have.
I
Interviewer31:38
We've got a couple about Chess to start with. The first one says you must have quite a lot of confidence in the demand for Chess's services to be investing a sizable sum of money. Do you have outline realistic financial expectations as to what benefits might come from this consolidation of the physical assets?
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Andy Thomis32:07
Yeah, I'll say a word about that. So the short answer is yes. We have a great deal of confidence in Chess's future revenue. I mean, this year it's got the highest level of order cover of any of our businesses at over 90%. And it has a very strong tailwind of future demand and a very solid order book going forward. Chess has not performed as we would want it to perform this year. Its performance, I mean it's been profitable but really it's very low level. That is not because of the profitability at the gross margin level; its products are really very good. It's been a combination of some supply chain tightness that we've experienced and also some issues, and we highlighted this at the half year point, some issues in operations and production delivery. Now that's one of the reasons that Chris Axel has joined us as chief operating officer. I know Chris is in the audience today rather than on the panel, but I'm sure he'd want to chip in at this point if he could. But Chris is very experienced in managing operational delivery in defense very successfully. And we also appointed last year Andy Smith as the new managing director of Chess. Andy and Chris both worked at Leonardo for a long period of time, although Andy joined us in fact from Marshalls, but he's also very experienced in delivery. So we're confident that with their expertise and the action that they're already taking that I outlined, we'll be able to enhance Chess's delivery. In terms of the new investment, well of course at the moment we're leasing a facility and that lease is coming to an end. So the development of the new facility will immediately give us a return on saving the rent that we'd otherwise have had to pay. But much more than that, it will enable much more efficient production as we're able to line up production facilities really from beginning to end in a single space. We'll be able to organize test at the right points in that, and we'll have the ability by having more space simply to add more supply chains and multiply up capacity as is needed. And we do expect capacity to need to grow because we see a lot of demand for Chess products. I hope that answers the question.
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Interviewer34:31
It does indeed and a good message. And perhaps following on from that, Simon, one for you, a question of what is the time scale and when will the capex of 15 million actually be allocated against the balance sheet for this project?
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Simon Walther34:47
The time scale, the plan is that we should be into the facility near the early part of 2028. So it's the year 27-28 financial year. And the spend will be over the next two years, probably around about 10 million this coming financial year and the balance in the second financial year, sort of a two-thirds, one-third split.
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Interviewer35:12
Could you give someone a bit more detail on progress for the ELAC sonar work for the Portuguese Navy on the submarine communications contract?
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Andy Thomis35:27
Yes, I mean, not a great deal. I mean, that's really, I'm not sure what we're thinking about here. I think if we're thinking about the submarine upgrade program, that is some years in the future before Elac Sonar is likely to do that. They will be providing underwater communications equipment for the new vessels that the Portuguese Navy is acquiring. And these, as far as we're concerned, are very straightforward sales. These are well-established products. We've got a very efficient production line for them. So I would expect those to happen in a very straightforward manner. But these are relatively modest size.
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Interviewer36:06
At the defense investment plan, the DIP. We have a question: which of your subsidiaries are most aligned to its recommendations, particularly on developing hybrid crewed or unmanned fleets?
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Andy Thomis36:21
Okay. Well, it's two of our subsidiaries are most aligned with the UK generally and those are Mass and SEA, or I should add an MCL as well, but MCL in a slightly different way. And I think of the UK businesses, it's SEA which is most aligned with the defense investment plan and particularly the maritime aspects of it that I highlighted a moment ago. They've already been involved in Atlantic Bastion, which is one of the small number of projects which did actually make some progress even in the absence of the defense investment plan. So I'm optimistic that they will play a part in that. And when we look at the plan, the very ambitious plan to move towards a hybrid navy, that is to say more unmanned vessels supported by a small number of mother ships, then what we see there is that the proportion of expenditure that goes on the kind of systems that we provide, particularly SEA provides, but beyond that things like communications, sensors for intelligence gathering, sensors for environmental awareness, and weapon systems as well. All of those things, a much higher proportion of the overall value of the platform will be spent on those things. And so we see that as a positive for us as well.
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Interviewer37:47
Great. And whilst we're talking about the MOD, you pointed out the very strong performance of overseas revenue providers and that has brought the MOD related revenues to about 40% of the group, which is historically quite a low level. So there's a question in here: which regions do you see today as having the most potential for genuinely strong growth in the medium term? Might it be Asia Pacific? Might it be NATO? You know, both of which you've got good order flow already, or potentially even Canada was the question.
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Andy Thomis38:27
Yes, that's an interesting one. Well, all of the ones just mentioned are showing really strong growth. I think within them there are particular countries that I'd highlight. Japan is a market that we're not doing an enormous amount in at the moment but is becoming increasingly open to European providers. So we've been providing satellite communications terminals into Japan. But some of the signals are that Japan is likely to become a more important market. So I'd pick out the fact that for the first time they're actually exporting frigates, serious major surface combatants, to Australia through the Mogami class, which indicates a new interaction with Five Eyes countries. They joined, they're part of GCAP, the very important future combat aircraft program. And all of these things indicate that Japan is recognizing that it needs to form alliances beyond its traditional alliance with the US and so will become a more open market. For the last few years, there's been a DSEI exhibition in Japan. Not as big as the one that's held in London every two years, but nevertheless very substantial and itself an indicator of an opening up, and we will be attending that next year. In Europe, I think particularly at the moment, it's those countries that see themselves as being most exposed to the Russian threat. So the Nordics, the Baltics, Germany, and Poland particularly are increasing their investment. Germany's the standout. In the next few years, it'll be the largest defense spender in Europe. By 2030, it'll be spending more than the UK and France put together. Very important market for us, but those others are as well. And I couldn't shouldn't go past without mentioning Canada, which has traditionally not been a large defense spender, but now is both increasing its defense spend as it sees, well, starting to see a threat from the south as well as the north. And perhaps not surprisingly in those circumstances, looking to widen its defense industry relationships as well. And we've actually set up a manufacturing facility in Canada as we've got a significant combination of orders and prospects there relating to their purchase of 12 new major combat vessels.
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Interviewer40:49
So someone is curious if you're allowed to say for the CUAS business you're presumably providing sensors to third parties who then supply a total package. Yeah, can you indicate what proportion of the end package cost to an end user cohort might be providing?
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Andy Thomis41:10
We basically the system and it's provided by Chess. The value per system varies depending upon the actual specification, but you're looking at a per unit value of somewhere around the region of 220 to 260,000 per year. That's the value to us. Yeah, and we don't know the final selling price, but that's going to be between 5 and 10%.
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Interviewer41:37
Right. Lovely. Very clear. Thank you. We'll keep you while we've got you. Simon, question in on margins between the two divisions and obviously at the moment one division has much higher margins than the other. What will make that change and over what time horizon?
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Simon Walther41:59
Well, what will change? Let's start with communications intelligence, which was very strong margin over 20%. I expect that over time to drop back a bit probably, but not much, probably in the 19 very high teens to 20% a year for the foreseeable future, and that's driven by primarily the Mass and EM Solutions businesses. It is the other division, sensors and effectors, where we need to get that moving from sort of sub-10 to mid-teens, and it is that which will then drive the group's net margin up into the mid-teens. And the plan is to get sensors and effectors hitting somewhere around 10% this coming year to move on from there. And my plan is that by 2030 the group should be delivering a 15% net margin, and the main driver, as I said earlier in my thing, the three factors in that will be the operational improvement, Chess delivering on the Italian project, and closing out some lower margin projects. It's Chess is the main driver though. That's the real driver of it.
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Interviewer43:02
Yeah. And going the right way, it seems. Great. Thank you. Nice simple question here. Are you presenting at the Farnborough Air Show?
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Andy Thomis43:13
Short answer. No. Two-letter answer. Yeah. We used to go there, but there isn't that much there for us is the short answer. And if you've ever had to undergo the bus journey from Farnborough North to the show, you'll know why we don't go if we don't have to.
I
Interviewer43:36
That's a long answer, but totally understandable. Right. Question here on divisional or subsidiary cooperation. EMS seems to have been integrated very well into the group and is working closely with other related subsidiaries. Can you remind us how the executive team promotes and organizes cross-selling and the sharing of contacts within the group?
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Andy Thomis44:01
Yes. All of our managing directors meet quarterly, as far as possible face to face, although that's become slightly more difficult with some of them 12,000 miles away. But at those meetings, every MD provides a presentation to the others about what they're doing, what their opportunities are, what their challenges are, and that naturally lends itself to conversations about how they can work with each other. And we've seen that happening in a number of areas. Our very substantial Ancilia program where we're delivering missile defense for surface ships to the Royal Navy is a close cooperation between SEA, who's the lead, and Chess. And you know, if we didn't own either company, we would be quite happily saying those would be the ideal partners to deliver this kind of capability because of the particular expertise that each has. We see geography-based cooperation as being very important. So people may have seen we recently had a substantial order for satellite communication systems from Portugal for our Australian business, and of course our business based there in Lisbon will be able to support those, hold spares, provide maintenance, and so on, and that's an absolutely natural relationship to have, and we see that going on elsewhere as well. So what we don't do is force businesses to cooperate together. If there are better partners outside the group, then we say that those should be the ones you should find, on the basis that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing. And also that forced cooperation leaves wounds that can take quite a long time to heal.
I
Interviewer45:39
Can't beat having a happy end client.
A
Andy Thomis45:42
Indeed.
I
Interviewer45:43
Right. Some questions around, well you mentioned how important innovation is to the group and its success and mentioned some new products like Enlighter and Eraser. I'm sure there's not a definitive answer on this, Simon, but we have a question: what is a reasonable expectation of time from a project or a product being on a design board to actually generating commercial sales? Is it one year, two years, or could it even be longer?
S
Simon Walther46:14
It will vary. It will vary. I think in the case of Enlight, and Andy you're probably a bit closer to it than me, I think that from initial design to now being in proven trials has taken probably around a year, 18 months.
A
Andy Thomis46:34
Yeah. Something like that.
S
Simon Walther46:35
Yeah. And in terms of commercial, that really now is more in the customer's hands and where they move forward. But we could see the first sales of it I think within the next year or 18 months. So you're looking at possibly two to three years for that one. Others take longer. Others are much shorter, particularly if they are customer driven. If a customer wants a quick solution or something, he normally is putting the money up straight away. I mean bear in mind that of our development money that we spend as a group, I think last year we spent around about 31 million pounds across the group on development. Our own spend on that was around about 8 million. The balance was paid for by customers.
A
Andy Thomis47:15
Yeah.
S
Simon Walther47:15
So, yeah, which tends to... So you could argue that some of our development is paying for it as it's being done.
I
Interviewer47:22
Very sensible model.
Right. Question on M&A. If you're capable of expanding on it, could you identify which preferred areas of technology expertise the group would most like to add into its current structure in the medium term?
A
Andy Thomis47:50
Well, we are making some efforts to look at it that way. And there certainly are some areas that might be interesting, and there might be some candidates in them. I mean, as you can imagine, the experience of very intense conflict in Ukraine has done an awful lot to evolve technology and also evolve tactics and the use of technology, and that's generating some very interesting insights. But one has to be very careful with all of that. I mean, at the moment you're seeing almost a sort of mini boom in terms of valuations of counter-drone companies, not particularly operating in the area where we do, which is sort of mid-range use of mid-caliber weapons against drones. I mean, there's a very clear leader in the market and that's the business that we're associated with. But in terms of short-range radio frequency attack of drones, all sorts of strange ideas. There was one I saw in Eurosatory a few weeks ago which had drones actually flying out with nets and dropping them on other drones in order to catch them, which struck me as quite elaborate, although one can understand why one might want to avoid bits of debris falling on the center of cities and things. So there's an awful lot of players in that market with a lot of quite similar technology. The same would be true of first-person view drones and autonomous attack drones where a lot of people are developing very similar software to do that kind of thing. So we're not really interested in being also-ran in an area where many people are developing the same kind of technology. We'd much rather find a niche, and EM Solutions would be a good example of that, where there's some growth opportunity, where the niche is small enough that it doesn't attract the attention of the Lockheed Martins of the world, and where we're able to show a bit of technical leadership compared to those competitors that are in there. So that's the kind of thing that we're really looking for.
I
Interviewer49:57
Yeah, sounds very sensible. Right, just a couple more questions. One on capital allocation. Someone congratulates you on the long-term visibility of your order flow out to 2037 and are curious in the light of that how regularly does the board consider adjusting its plans for future capital allocation, the division between R&D, capital spend, dividends, shareholder returns, and residual capital. Are you constantly looking at what is sitting in the order book 5, 10, or 15 years further down the road in making that decision?
A
Andy Thomis50:40
Well, I think I might ask Simon to comment on this, but let me just first say that we've got a lot in the order book going out to 2037, but actually the majority of what we'll be generating in 2037 has yet to be won. So we expect to see future growth looking at the markets and the opportunities that we have in front of us at the moment, and I think it'd be a bit reckless of us to predict with decimal point accuracy what our cash flow is likely to be like in 2037. What I would say is that the board does regularly review capital allocation, particularly in the context of dividends and in the context of investment internally. We tend to do it on the basis of individual investments, and of course with acquisitions that's the way we do it. We can't decide at the beginning of the year we're going to spend this much on acquisitions. It's very much about opportunity. But Simon, is there more you can say about that?
S
Simon Walther51:36
No, I would say you're absolutely right, Andy, on the M&A. We don't set out at the start of the year and say we will spend X on M&A. It just doesn't happen because we don't know what's going to turn up and what it will be. But what we can say at the start of the year as we do our budgetary and strategic processes is what we plan to spend in terms of capital and product development. Now that doesn't mean it's fixed because people will come up with ideas as things move. The world changes. So if you look at that forecast where I said about approximately 60 million being spent in the next three years, that's based on our current budgeting and plans. Now if everything goes to plan, that's what we'll spend, but things will change. I think the Chess capex will happen. But in terms of innovation, we may find some of the businesses find that the innovation plans they had will change. That may require less spend or more spend or possibly customers coming in at an earlier point to fund it. So rather than us paying, so effectively that spend moves out of that line into the top line of cash generation. The dividends, well as I said earlier, that's on our progressive dividend policy, approximately a 10% uplift per annum, which we've been doing for the last however many years, quite a long time. So those two numbers are somewhat, I would say, not baked in but they're fairly predictable. The one in the middle, that's the one I can't predict.
I
Interviewer53:01
Yeah. Well, that's a very neat intro to the final question, which definitely requires a crystal ball. So I'll see which one of you wants to take it. Now, we have a question or a statement that the US president recently showed off a map which included both Canada and Greenland under the stars and stripes. Do you fear for the future of NATO, gentlemen?
A
Andy Thomis53:27
Well, I think if one took everything that the US president said at face value, one would fear for one's sanity. I think NATO is a very solid alliance. We have to plan for a reduced US presence in Europe and a reduced US commitment to NATO because those signals have been very clearly sent, and one doesn't have to have a crystal ball to see that the US looks west rather than east when it sees the greatest challenge to its economic prosperity and security. So Europe has to respond to that, and Europe is doing. At the moment it's responding very strongly in terms of defense spending. I think it's going to have to respond to it in terms of institutional arrangements as well. I think we're going to need a stronger European wing of NATO. But NATO is the most persistent, longest, most successful military alliance in history, and I think it's withstood many a challenge and will withstand this one.
I
Interviewer54:42
Yeah. Yeah. Very wise words to conclude with. So I'd just like to thank the audience for their good range of questions. And please don't log off immediately when this closes because you will be receiving a feedback form which the company is naturally very interested to hear your thoughts upon. Our strong thanks to Andy and Simon for their excellent performance and for making the time to speak to all of the investors. And of course, 20 years unbroken dividend. We wish you the best of luck in extending that many many further years going forward.
Thank you very much indeed Andy.
A
Andy Thomis55:26
Thank you all.