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Andy Thomis
Chief Executive, Cohort

Cohort plc - Investor Presentation (July 2024) - FY Results

🎥 Jul 01, 2024 📺 Equity Development ⏱ 56m 👁 271 views
Andy Thomis (Chief Executive) and Simon Walther (Finance Director) of Cohort plc (AIM:CHRT) conducted an Investor Presentation covering results for the financial year ended 30 April 2024. The management team discussed highlights of the period, which included record revenue, adjusted operating profit, order intake, closing order book and net funds, exceeding market expectations. The team also provided a financial review and took viewers through divisional highlights, as well as a detailed discussion of the outlook for the business with a robust demand picture, ongoing investing in technology...
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About Andy Thomis

Andy Thomis, chief executive of Cohort plc, presented the company's annual results for the 2025/26 financial year in July 2026, reporting record revenue exceeding £306 million and a 32% increase in adjusted operating profit to over £36 million. He attributed the performance to growing global defense expenditure, which he stated reached $2.63 trillion in 2025, and highlighted demand for technologies including counter-drone systems, anti-submarine warfare capabilities, and seabed warfare solutions. Thomis noted that the company's order book stood at £619 million, with contracts extending to 2037. Discussing the geopolitical landscape, Thomis said that "the risks that we now see coming from that are real" and that they "have the potential to affect us here in the United Kingdom." He stated that "we have to plan for a reduced US presence in Europe and a reduced US commitment to NATO because those signals have been very clearly sent," adding that Europe is "responding very strongly in terms of defense spending." Thomis also emphasized Cohort's strategy of organic growth, targeted acquisitions, and investment in research and development, and noted that the company had increased its dividend every year since its IPO 20 years ago.

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Transcript (46 segments)
A
Andy Thomis0:03
Well good morning everybody, thank you for joining us. I'm Andy Thomis, chief executive at Cohort PLC, and I'm here with Simon Walther, Cohort's finance director, and we're going to take you through our results for the financial year which ended in April this year. So I'm going to start by giving you highlights of the results that we're announcing today. Simon's going to give more detail including a divisional breakdown, I will come back with some comments about the demand picture and our future prospects. I'm happy to say that overall we've once again seen a very strong performance: record operating profit, record revenue, and a record closing order book. The numbers are on the slide. Revenue and profit both up very strongly above market expectations. We hit what I think are two major milestones in our development as a group: for the first time we have revenue greater than 200 million and profit greater than 20 million. More specifically, revenue was up 11% to 202.5 million, adjusted operating profit and adjusted EPS also grew strongly to just over 21 million and 42.9 pence respectively, and those are all new record numbers. Very importantly, it was a strong period for new orders once again. The order intake of 392 million significantly exceeded the revenue that we recognized, so that by the year end the total order book had grown to nearly 520 million pounds, and that meant that 90% of the consensus forecast revenue for this year was already on order at the end of April, and our strong order winning run has continued since then. We've taken in over 70 million pounds of orders since the year end, and the order book has now grown to over 560 million, and that's given us over 95% cover for the year. And finally, our cash performance was also strong, bringing us to an end-of-year cash position much better than we had expected, so net funds of over 23 million pounds. And against that background, the board is very pleased to recommend a final dividend of 10.1 pence, once again representing an increase of 10% in the dividend for the full year. If we could have the next slide please.
Andy, Simon will give a more detailed breakdown of the performance of our divisions, but this slide shows the main factors behind the group's performance improvement overall. The sensors and effectors division was the driver of revenue and profit growth, communications and intelligence in fact was slightly behind where it had been the prior year. In sensors and effectors, Chess and SEA generated the large improvement in operating performance. A generally positive demand environment was an important factor in that, coupled to good products that have been developed to meet what the market needed. The most notable example of that was the selection of SEA's Anilia product to protect the Royal Navy surface ships that we announced in March. There was an especially strong turnaround in performance of Chess, which exceeded our expectations for revenue and profit in the year, and that was a demonstration of the success of the operating improvements that have been made by the managing director there, with support from Simon and myself, and we continue to target further operating performance improvements. Elac Sonar continued to trade its large Italian submarine contract cautiously, but again it performed well, and in the year the Italian submarine soone last weite passed its critical design review, a very important milestone, and has now moved forward into the production phase. In communications and intelligence, which performed slightly behind their prior year, the main swing factor was MCL, which returned to a more normal level of performance after an exceptional year in 2022-23. Mass returned to growth and hit new records of revenue and profit, despite being hampered by supply delays on one important contract. EID had another disappointing year, making a small loss, but the good news was that towards the end of the year and at the beginning of this year it succeeded in bringing in some important orders with a total value of over 45 million euros, and that bodes well for a better year in 2024-25. And finally, I should mention a small acquisition made by MCL; it's a company based in Nbra in Yorkshire called Interactive Technical Services. It specializes in providing the support documents needed by defense customers when they buy new equipment, and that's a capability that's often contracted out by equipment suppliers, and MCL has been a frequent user of its services, so we believe that the acquisition will enable it to expand its offering and MCL to offer a fuller service to its customers. The acquisition was completed in May and it will make a modest but positive contribution to our trading in this financial year.
Now, as well as delivering successfully in 2023-24, we've also improved our strategic position for the longer term. First, the demand drivers, those have remained very strong. The world unfortunately is not showing signs of returning to stability. If history ever did stop, it's clearly restarted now with a vengeance. And that backdrop has led us to invest in new technologies to enhance our growth prospects, and our research and development spend was very much up sharply this year. The larger and longer order book speaks for itself. Our book-to-bill ratio was over 1.9 last year, and that momentum has continued into 2024-25. And the result of that is that we can maintain our growth prospects for the current year, with perhaps a little upside from that IT acquisition, which is going to be modest in size but it will be positive and it will be additive. And thereafter, that positive strategic picture enables us to target further progress in those later years. Now I'll say more about all of those points later in the presentation, but for now let me hand over to Simon, who's going to take you through the results in more detail. So Simon, over to you.
S
Simon Walther6:48
Thank you Andy, and good morning to you all. As Andy has already said, and I reiterate, a record four-year trading performance for the group. The higher revenue was driven by sensors and effectors as expected. Gross margins have recovered from last year, mostly as a result of sensors and effectors. Also as a result of the increase in the order book, we've continued to invest in our people, continuing the trend we saw at the half year. We've now seen a rising headcount from just over 1,100 people in last April to over 1,300 in this April, a 15% increase. In fact, over the last three years we've increased our headcount by over 30%. Most of the increasing people has been in direct staff, specifically engineers. The cost of recruitment, training, and general people investment has driven much of the overhead, with a balance in business development, especially the DSEI show last September, and investment generally at Chess and SEA for the enlarged order book. At this point I would guide that the tax rate applying to our adjusted earnings will rise in the coming year 2024-25 to below 20%, and then in the two years after that to just over 20%. The operating margin at 10.4% was in line with last year. Looking forward, we are targeting a steady rise over the next 3 to 5 years to a low to mid-teens percentage for the group as a whole. Move to the next slide, Andy, please.
Thank you. Sensors and effectors saw a 24% increase in revenue which drove a 38% improvement in trading profit. The revenue increase was mostly SEA as it started to deliver its strong order book from last year. The improved operating margin was very much down to Chess, which as we stated last year closed out problem legacy projects and delivered an operating margin of over 10%, whereas against last year which was 2%. At Elac we completed the critical design stage of the Italian sonar contract and have now into production of the first ship set. We continued to trade margin prudently on this project, and we expect to deliver the first ship set in 2025-26. Last year also benefited from the last payment from Villa under the indemnity scheme of half a million, which was not repeated this year. Excluding this item, the underlying operating performance of Elac was up 25% both in revenue and trading profit. SEA, as expected, delivered more revenue, but its mix was weaker with greater subcontractor effort, especially on a delivery for an overseas customer. The order cover for this division for 2024-25 is over 95% with good prospects for further orders in some of our key products, including counter-drone systems. We expect this division to continue to grow in the coming year with net margin set to approach 12% as against just under 11% for this year.
Turning to communications and intelligence, this division had a weaker year than the exceptionally strong performance of last year. The revenue drop was at MCL, which delivered exceptionally high levels of hearing protection and intercoms to the UK MOD last year and has returned to more historical normal levels this year. EID's loss for the full year was lower than last year due to continued delays to significant orders from its domestic customer in Portugal. As announced on Monday, some of these have now been secured. We do expect EID to have a much better 2024-25, but it still has some way to go before it achieves the historical levels of performance, including operating margins of over 20%, and more importantly on a sustainable basis. Mass delivered a stronger result than last year. The weaker net margin for this division was down to the drop in volume at MCL. Order cover for this division is now 95% following the recent order wins announced this week. Historically, this division's order cover is lower than sensors and effectors with the short-term nature of some of the work at Mass and especially MCL, so a 95% coverage at this time of the year is a strong position. We expect this division to deliver a stronger result in 2024-25 with an improved operating margin of around 16%.
Moving to the next slide, here you can see, and we showed this last December, a picture of our new facility in Germany for Elac. This is taken last December, as you can tell by the robing Clement weather. This explains why there has been a delay to the production. The weather over the winter in Northern Germany was quite bad, and that resulted in our net funds being higher this year, partly resulted. But one of the things you'll notice is that very large hole. And if we move to the next slide, this was a picture taken of that same site as of Monday this week. The weather is much better. To the right there, that wall is actually surrounding what is now a 30-meter deep test pool, it's about 9 meters squared, and the rest of it you can see the foundations are now being laid for the facility. We still estimate the overall cost of this facility will be around 11 million, with a majority of the expenditure coming in this year, 2024-25.
And if we move to the next slide, we can see the net funds bridge for the group. Overall, we had a very strong first half, and the second half was better than I expected. As I've already highlighted, the expected capex ramp-up on the new Elac facility didn't happen as much as we thought due to the adverse weather, we also, and that will fall into 2024-25. I'll talk about the capex projections for the coming years. Sensors and effectors also had a very strong operating cash flow with its strong order book and some customer advances. We do expect some of these to start to unwind in the coming year, and overall with the increased capex and some unwinding of the advances position, we expect net funds for this year to drop back from around 23 million to around 15 million before recovering again in 2025-26. You can see there the capex projections for the next three years: 17 million for this year, 7 million for 2025-26, and back to 5 million for 2026-27. If you take out the spend on the Elac facility, which we estimate 12 for this year and 2 to 3 the following year, you see that the underlying capex spend for the group is around about 5 million per annum. One thing I would always say is, as usual, the nature of our receipts and payments make any prediction of closing cash quite difficult because we do have receipts that could be several million pounds individually. Overall, summing up, I would say it's been an encouraging start to 2024-25, strong expectations of growth being maintained with strong momentum, and with that I'll land back to Andy.
A
Andy Thomis14:00
Thank you Simon. So that covers the year just passed. Now I'm going to talk about the outlook. I'll start with a broad market position, then I'll talk about some of the investments that we're making in new products and technology to maximize our opportunities, and I'll show you then how our existing order book runs off over the coming years and how it's developed over the past 12 months. So we'll start with the demand picture. The two main driving forces for demand for defense equipment have not changed in the last year: the continuing conflict in Ukraine, and the influence of growing Chinese assertiveness really from the Indian Ocean all the way to Australasia. And to add to those, since October last year there's been the developing violent conflict in Gaza and the related instability in that region, particularly in the Red Sea. The conflict in Central Europe is primarily land-based, it has driven demand directly as the NATO countries seek to assist Ukraine to resist the Russian invasion. So 2023, for instance, saw a real increase of over 8% in defense spending across the European NATO allies and Canada, so the non-US NATO countries. And it's also made NATO and other countries think again about the balance of their defense forces and equipment. Some aspects of that, for instance increasing ammunition stockpiles, don't have an impact on us, but some of the other lessons learned: the importance of electronic warfare, the need to counter drones of all kinds, the need for accurate and timely battlefield intelligence, all of those have had a positive impact on both our orders and our prospects. And then in Asia, growing Chinese assertiveness has not yet transformed into open conflict, but it has come perilously close in the South China Sea. Taiwan is also clearly at risk, the presence of North Korea in the region is not a stabilizing factor. Chinese investment in the navy, which has been one of the main thrusts of investment in China, has led to a response in the form of new maritime programs in the region and elsewhere. The most visible and significant consequence of that was the AUKUS alliance between the UK, the US, and Australia. Taiwan and the Philippines have also launched new submarine programs. Elsewhere in the region, South Korea is investing heavily in defense, notably in its submarine building program. Japan quite strikingly remains committed to a doubling of its national security spend as a share of GDP by 2027. Its defense spending increased by 27% last year and a further 16% in the current year to 2024. Japan has also joined the Anglo-Italian Next Generation Combat Aircraft project, balancing its strong historical US relationship with growing ties to Europe and particularly to the United Kingdom. The conflict in Gaza doesn't have the same direct impact as the other factors, but it's symptomatic of wider tensions in the region primarily between Iran on the one hand and Saudi Arabia and its allies on the other. The attacks on ships in the Red Sea have accentuated the need for drone and missile defense systems, and more widely it's likely to drive further defense spending in what is one of our more important regional markets. It's hard to see how these conflicts and tensions are going to play out in the long term, but it is clear that we're not in a situation that can be resolved with a few compromises and a handshake. The world is now in a new period of instability and tension that I think is likely to persist in the foreseeable future, comparable perhaps to the Cold War but maybe even more complex and unpredictable. Now clearly that's not something that should fill us with happiness, we should all be concerned for the well-being of our families and for future generations. At Cohort, something that really motivates us is that we are able, in circumstances like this, to make a positive contribution because the equipment and services that we supply contribute to the security of our nations and our allies in what has become a dangerous world.
So in practical terms, what is the impact of all of this for us? Well, looking at our domestic markets, the most important is the United Kingdom, 54% of our total revenue in 2023-24 went to the UK directly and indirectly. In particular, we have a close relationship with the Royal Navy, with Chess and SEA both significant suppliers of equipment and support. The Anilia win has deepened that relationship further, but we also provide electronic warfare training and software for the British Army and the Royal Air Force, a wide range of communications and electronic warfare equipment from MCL, and exercise support for the UK's strategic command. I don't see the recent change of government as being likely to change the fundamentals of UK defense strategy. The new Defense Secretary John Healey is a very able man, he's an experienced minister, he's appointed George Robertson, the former Defense Secretary and Secretary General of NATO, to lead a defense review. All of the indications are that the new Starmer government is responsible, and I don't think any responsible government would take risks with defense at a time like the present. Our domestic markets in Germany and Portugal are important but smaller. As I mentioned, in Portugal we finally seen some good order intake for the army, and we're also in discussions about another important program, in this case for the navy. In our export markets, we're seeing strong demand from the European NATO countries for air defense systems, particularly for countering the drone threat. That demand comes to us both directly and via partners like Rheinmetall and BAE Systems. Our capability in this area has brought us into some new markets in Central and Eastern Europe that we haven't accessed before. We are also in northern Europe providing battlefield reconnaissance systems, as well as more widely, electronic warfare software and training. And in the East, we see strong demand from Asia, from the Indian Ocean all the way to Australasia. The naval systems in particular, torpedo launchers and communication systems for surface ships, are both in demand. We see good opportunities in this region for Anilia as well, and for sonar systems too. Submarine programs are being launched worldwide, and that provides opportunities in countries as diverse as Canada, Poland, and the Philippines. Overall, NATO and the Indo-Pacific are the regions that we supply most, though we're also active in South America and Canada. Overall, the demand picture for Cohort we believe is robust.
If we can move on to the next slide. Against that encouraging background, we are increasing our spend on technology development to meet the evolving needs of our customers. This year it was a 26% increase. Now many of the projects that we invest in are sensitive, but I did want to share some examples with you. Looking at the drone threat first, Chess has developed artificial intelligence-based technology to track small and elusive airborne targets like drones. That can be combined with high-power jamming to block the drone command and communication signals, or for a more permanent solution, something like the Bofors 40mm cannon that's shown in the picture on the left could be used, and you can see Chess's equipment based on top of that turret. Chess has also developed related technology to provide battlefield surveillance, based on vehicles or on fixed surveillance posts, and that system can be elevated above tree level on a vehicle on a mast, and then used to detect and track, and also using a laser designator to designate targets for smart weapons very accurately at surprisingly long ranges.
And then moving to the underwater world, Elac's new digital sonar offers an extraordinary level of underwater performance. They have reached a new level of sensitivity, achieved by mounting literally thousands of small sensors into a panel like the one you can see in that central picture there. They have also used some software, some of which is actually unique and a unique capability to Elac, brought in beamforming which allows a target to not only be detected at longer range than ever, but also to be accurately positioned in terms of bearing and depth as well. Now I've talked about SEA's Todor sonar, which is suitable for small lightweight surface vessels. If you were quick you might have caught a picture of that which was flashed up as the very first introductory slide. It has become apparent to us from recent exhibitions and conferences and discussions with customers that the world's navies are looking to grow very strongly the number of uncrewed vessels that they deploy, both on the surface of the sea and under the water as well. SEA's Todor sonar is ideally suited to those applications as a lightweight, low power but very sensitive sonar detector. And last but certainly not least, I must mention Anilia, SEA's system for protecting naval surface vessels from the anti-ship missile threat. You can see that on the right-hand side of the slide. Events in both the Black Sea and the Red Sea have shown us just how potent that threat is. We see a significant international market for Anilia as a result. The product is actually the result of a collaboration between SEA and Chess, and that's a happy outcome because we have two businesses that are world experts respectively in the decoy launcher itself and the stabilized position on which it's mounted, under the same roof in Cohort. Now investment in those and in other projects positions us well to meet customer requirements which are evolving for the reasons that I explained earlier. And finally, in terms of investment, and no less importantly, we maintain our strategy of seeking and investing in value-adding acquisitions. Now we're very selective, and we won't acquire a business unless we know it will add value and growth in the long term. ITS is a small example of that, but it matches very much our profile.
Now if we can move on to the next slide. I've talked in broad terms about markets and capabilities, but this slide shows the tangible results of the demand picture that I've described. If you look at the chart on the right-hand side, that shows the order book runoff for the order book that we had at the end of the last financial year in April 2024. At nearly 520 million pounds, the year-end order book is the strongest that we've ever announced. It includes over 180 million for delivery this year and over 100 million for next year already. And of course, the Anilia order at over 135 million pounds made a big contribution to that order book, but it's worth mentioning that even without that, we would have seen order intake of over a quarter of a billion pounds in the year, and it would still have been the best year for order intake that we've ever experienced and the best closing order book. Now, as I mentioned earlier, since the year end that order book has continued to grow, and it reached almost 560 million pounds at the end of June, giving us now 95% or over 95% revenue cover for the year. If you look at the color coding on those columns, you will see that the larger part of our order book now sits with the sensors and effectors division. SEA makes a very strong contribution to that number, Elac and Chess also add significantly to the total. In communications and intelligence, MCL tends to operate naturally on a short-term order book, so its contribution to the total is modest, although you'll have seen recently we've announced quite a substantial order that MCL has taken, mostly for delivery this financial year. Mass's order book is substantial, but it only increases significantly in years when its large long-term service contracts are renewed. EID has been in discussion about some substantial domestic programs for what has felt like forever, and that was still ongoing at the year end.
But the good news is since May they've been awarded more than 45 million euros of new orders, and that significantly replenishes their order book. Now, just for comparison purposes, the chart on the left shows the shape of the order book runoff last year, and what you can see is that it has maintained its shape. In broad terms, all of the columns have increased in size. The change that really stands out though is for the longer-term revenue, which has grown from 65 million pounds last year to 167 million pounds this year, almost a 250% increase. And that is the impact of Anilia and other long-term contracts providing a steady flow of revenue for over a decade ahead, in fact out to 2037. And that's a solid foundation that we can build on for growth in the years ahead.
Now if we move to the next slide, here you can see in tabular form the order book runoff for the current year together with a comparison against the same position last year. That increase in total order book from 329 million to 519 million, that's more than a 57% increase, is a strong indicator of the potential for future revenue growth. And since then, as I've said, it's gone up to over 560 million with 95% cover for the year. The two shaded columns show the revenue already on order for the year ahead at the year end compared to the same position in 2023. Now in Communications and Intelligence, we can see that the underpin is a little higher than last year's, but as I mentioned, that strong order intake from both MCL and EID since the year end has improved that position really quite significantly. But the big change is in Sensors and Effectors, where the underpinning for the year has risen from 84 million last year to over 120 million just from that division, an increase of over 40%. And that's a really big plank in our foundations for growth in the current year.
So that brings me almost to the end of the presentation. If we can have the next slide, here's a summary of the main points that I wanted to make. It's been another record year in terms of performance. We're not resting on our laurels, but we're very pleased to be growing the size and strength of the group. Perhaps even more importantly than the year's performance, we've achieved a record order book and we see a really strong pipeline of further opportunities ahead. And as I said, that's grown to over 560 million pounds at the end of June. We've got a strong balance sheet and an excellent relationship with our banks that gives us the resource we need to invest in new technology, greater production capacity, and when opportunities arise, to make carefully targeted acquisitions.
The markets that we're operating in are growing, and we expect to see those higher levels of spending maintained in the longer term. And that book-to-bill ratio achieved of over 1.9 is a reliable quantitative marker for future growth. We maintain our growth expectations for the year and beyond. We expect to see some improvement from the IT acquisition, and then beyond the current year, we believe the combination of growing demand and our market position allows us to target further improvements in performance. And I hope what you've heard from us today explains why we've reached that view. As a result of our performance and our prospects, the board has felt confident to increase the dividend by 10% once again, and we've grown the dividend every year since our IPO in 2006.
And if we can flick on to the final slide, in closing I wanted to take the opportunity to thank our management teams and our employees for their continued hard work and professionalism, because thanks to them this year has seen us take another step towards our exciting long-term future as a major independent UK defense technology group, offering world-class systems to domestic and export customers alike. Our strategy continues to be to generate growth both organically and through acquisitions, while paying a dividend that reflects our successful financial performance. And we believe this offers the best long-term returns for investors, while creating high-value employment and enhancing the security of the UK and its allies. That's all I wanted to say. Thank you very much for your attention. If you have questions, then Simon and I will do our best to answer them.
I
Interviewer32:29
Excellent, you hear a very, very clear presentation. So a number of questions already passed through. Let's dive in.
Simon, a numbers one to start with for you. Could you say a little bit more about the payment of R&D? Understand the importance of the company investing it, but can you say a little bit about tax credits, you know, particularly in the UK or Germany, or typically how clients may be able to help cover the cost of development?
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Simon Walther33:02
Right, on the R&D spend itself, the figure we quote is actually our private venture R&D plus the R&D credit we receive in the UK. Of that figure of 14.6 million, around 75% is funded by our customer, so that gives you an idea on that front. And just to highlight that most of it is UK. In Portugal, R&D credits are also received, but they're recognized on a cash basis, and that's one of the reasons why the tax charge for this year was a bit lower than we expected. And Germany is about to introduce an R&D scheme, but it is not through tax; it will be actually through effectively a government subsidy. So if we get R&D credits going forward, and I do expect we will in Germany because a lot of what we do is leading-edge technology, they will effectively add to the operating performance of the German business. And in terms of the balance sheet side of it, our general approach obviously with the R&D that's funded by customers, that generally gets put to the contract, so effectively it's expensed through cost of sales. On our own PV R&D, our general approach is to expense it as we incur. There are one or two occasions where we will put it on the balance sheet, and a good example is the Anilia system, which is, as you can see, a physical system, it's not just bits of paper. And I can assure you actually it will probably be used in the actual contract anyway. I think sadly that demonstrator may end up in rather lots of bits when it goes through the various testings that the government will insist upon. I hope that answers the question.
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Interviewer34:43
It does indeed. And we might move on to an Anilia question on the back of that. Yeah, a fantastic order, and Andy you've already alluded to a lot of overseas interest from potential customers. Can you give a vague indication of how the pace of that interest might progress, or is it too soon?
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Andy Thomis35:07
Well, we are, I mean it's not just that we've seen potential, we are in dialogue with both customers and partners with whom we can jointly approach the market on Anilia. As I explained, the new threats which ships are facing because of some of the new technologies that have been developed in China and Russia, missiles that approach their targets where the question is not how many miles per minute they fly but how many miles per second that they fly, the old ways of maneuvering the ship to minimize its frontal area and firing off decoys from fixed directions is no longer going to be effective against that kind of threat. So they're going to need a system like the one that we've developed, capable of firing those large heavy decoys very quickly in the most optimal direction and the right kind of decoy to defeat whatever it is that the threat is. So we see that as a system that's generating a lot of interest on the export market. And where I can't sort of talk to you about specific customers, I can tell you that we're already in discussion with customers and we would hope that that will bear fruit in due course.
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Interviewer36:33
Sounds encouraging. Perhaps back to you, Simon. Significant increase in headcount up to 1,300. The question is, how have you managed that in what is a perceived tight market for specialist engineers, particularly in the UK?
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Simon Walther36:51
Well, it's both. The growth has come particularly at SCA Chess and at Elac in Germany. The reason we focused particularly on our employee engagement and attraction, we used a number of schemes. Obviously remuneration is one of those, but we haven't sort of, we're not sort of paying above market rates particularly to get people in. I think what we offer is a more rounded opportunity for people who join us. And as Andy touched on before, we basically, at where our businesses are small and agile, many of our direct staff, our engineers, are actually involved in customer interactions directly. They have variety of work. Obviously at times they can be working on projects that are funded by customers, at other times they can be doing a bit of blue-sky thinking and more R&D development. We particularly focused across all of our businesses on graduate schemes and school leavers. Mass I think do a hell of a lot of work with their local schools where they go during term times and sort of show them how it works and, you know, literally sort of breaking apart computers and rebuilding them. And they've particularly, I think they've taken on a cohort I think of a dozen 18-year-olds recently into the business. And SCA again, I think Andy you probably know the number, how many people subscribe to their graduate scheme.
A
Andy Thomis38:19
Oh, the oversubscription quite remarkable. Yes, we had, our six places were oversubscribed at SCA by a factor of 100 in this year's graduate engineering round. And as Simon said, the reason is that we offer interesting jobs and in SCA's case a pleasant location in North Devon as well, so a good one for the surface.
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Interviewer38:42
Particularly today I would think so. Very much an awful lot of sense of growing your own in markets as well.
Now we have a question probably more for you, Andy. The overall balance to the group looking longer term, can you see more of the emphasis of Cohort shifting to Asia Pacific, you know, given what's happening with AUKUS, or are the NATO concerns closer to home with no sign of resolution in the Ukraine yet going to keep the current balance in regions broadly intact?
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Andy Thomis39:22
Well, the short answer is both are growing. It's hard for me to say which is going to grow faster; it rather depends on events. I mean, if there were to be, for example, a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, I'm not expecting that in the immediate future, but if there were to be, that would drive exceptional growth in demand from that region, and one that we are well placed to participate in fulfilling. At the moment, as I explained, the UK makes up just over half of our total revenue output, and I expect almost whatever happens that to continue to be a very substantial factor. It's often the case in defense that one satisfies one's domestic customer first, and then that provides a strong boost in the export markets. But overall, there's no doubt there is very strong demand arising from both NATO Europe and indeed from Asia, from the Indian Ocean all the way down to Australia.
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Interviewer40:28
Right, very clear. We had a follow-up Simon on the staffing question, which is, have you been losing staff in any worrying numbers during the year given the interest in the sector, and can you say a little bit more about how you balance remuneration compared to the rest of the market, or is it the attractions of the Cohort group positioning that brings people on board?
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Simon Walther40:53
Good points. I mean, yes, we lose people, but as you can see the net increase shows that we're bringing in more people than we're losing. The turnover varies from business to business and from time to time and in particular roles, but overall, in Elac for example, I think the turnover in staff has been less than 1%, which is a remarkably low number. The point about the remuneration is, yeah, we pay what is appropriate, and it varies from business to business and also the regions. I mean, obviously wages in an area like Bala are not going to be as significantly high as they probably are in SCA which is quite near to Cambridge, or what we'll see in, we've got one of Chess's businesses in Wokingham in the Thames Valley where you'll see higher wages. So we leave, and that's one of the advantages of our model, that the way our businesses operate with a great deal of dependence, we leave much of that to them to determine. It's not for me and Andy sitting west of Reading to decide what the appropriate wages are going to be in Lisbon. We set a sort of overall budget and we try and keep within that in terms of an overall pay increase each year in the budget cycle, but again occasionally our businesses have to deal with what's going on in the market, and that's their core, that's what the managing directors of each business are paid to do.
I
Interviewer42:23
Really well, that devolution of control is key to your model, isn't it? So yeah, it is, it is. And we, you know, and this is an area, you know, it's not for us to sort of interfere down into what details of people's remuneration packages.
Right, couple of questions around M&A. Firstly one on ITS. Question: how long ago did you identify this as a business that would fit in with and benefit from being part of the Cohort group? And I'm sure most deals are different, but what might be a typical length for a courtship period?
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Andy Thomis42:59
That's an interesting one. Well, in this case, MCL has known it for years and they've used them as a supplier, and it's been a positive relationship and they've been pleased with the output. It was ITS that actually approached, or the owners of ITS, that approached MCL in the course of 2023-24, explained that they were looking to exit and asked if we might be interested in bringing the business into MCL. And after some internal discussions we decided that we were, and we went ahead and negotiated an agreement. So it was a relatively simple process. And that does happen where we actually get approached by a seller who recognizes, I mean, sellers are often as well as wanting to obviously finance their own futures, want to ensure that the well-being of employees is looked after and perhaps that the business can continue in its current form to some extent, and you continue the success that they perceive it has. So that was certainly the case with Chess, where we were regarded as being a desirable acquirer. I think that was also the same with Elac, where in that case it was a subsidiary of Wärtsilä, the large Finnish marine propulsion business, and they were clearly very concerned not only to conduct an effective and efficient transaction but also to preserve themselves against any reputational damage by selling it to a new owner that might damage it or close it down in a way that could come back on them. So that's often a means by which we are identified. But of course we also see businesses who we meet and talk to on our usual round of discussions and exhibitions, and we get approached by investment banks and boutique M&A agencies from time to time with prospects too.
I
Interviewer45:10
Good. And looking forward, there is a lot of response to changing warfare circumstances, but is there any particular technology or defense offering that you would like to bring into the group as a generic target?
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Andy Thomis45:34
There are some. I can talk about. I mean, if you just look at the lessons learned in Ukraine, you can see that certain technologies are very important. I mentioned a few earlier on. So I think electronic warfare, battlefield intelligence, counter-drone, those things are all very important. Another thing that's very, very important is communications, and communications have been disrupted significantly in Ukraine by the use of electronic attack methods. So having communications that are relatively invulnerable to that and can't be intercepted is something that's very important as well. So I think demand for those areas is very important. But it's also important to look at the market dynamics. So if you take an example, drones. You know, if you think in terms of battlefield intelligence, drones are a very, very important component of that. But the barrier to entry in providing drones is really very low. I mean, powerful permanent magnet electric motors, lightweight batteries are all readily available. And so you see drone manufacturers. There's one company I know of which makes drones out of cardboard, together with those lightweight batteries and the powerful permanent magnet motors, together with the necessary communications link. And I mean, they're remarkably inexpensive and it's not difficult to do. You could do it in your garage. And they're being used in the thousands in Ukraine. So that does not seem like the kind of business that would be sensible to enter for those reasons. I think potentially a better business would be the surveillance or other munitions packages or whatever that go onto the drone, rather than the drone itself. So we think about things in that way. It's not just about demand.
I
Interviewer47:35
Okay, thank you. Simon, if we go back a year, a lot has happened in the year, but at that time there was a lot of concern for industrial and technology groups about how they were going to keep up supplies of key components. Can you update on how that situation might have alleviated now?
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Simon Walther47:59
Yeah, actually I'd say even a year ago it was a lot better than it was the year before. We've seen, it's not an issue that now vexes us particularly at meetings with our teams. I would say that the overall supply chains are probably not yet back at pre- or sort of post-COVID problems, but in a way we've adapted to all of this, as has the entire supply chain and our customers. And obviously the key is not to promise a customer something that cannot be delivered. However, we've also, and you can see our net funds enable us to do this, we've invested a bit more in our stock, so we're holding more of some of the more critical lines that need to be available just in case there are any more future shocks to the supply chain. And clearly we have to keep an eye on the supply chain. And again, obviously to some extent the drivers of our pipeline and what causes that, as Andy's touched on, what's going on in the South China Sea and particularly around Taiwan. Obviously if anything really went hot in the Taiwan region, that could have an impact on not only us but every other business operating in the world. So no, we found it's not what it was. It's a much better situation this year than what it was last year, and that was better than it was the previous year, so it is easing.
I
Interviewer49:33
Yeah, now you can't be too careful, but time so much improved, so that's good to hear. Just a couple more questions. Maybe Andy you want to take this. Great anti-submarine defense, and the question is, trials started maybe five or six years ago. As much as you're capable of, can you give an update on where CRAIS is moving on the path to commercialization?
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Andy Thomis49:59
Well, yes. I mean, it has its launch order, the CRAIS defense system, in the application of providing anti-submarine capability to light vessels, and that's to a customer in Southeast Asia. I mentioned that was a key part of where we saw the demand coming. And we're keen to get that delivered so that we're able to demonstrate it in that role to other customers. And we would see strong demand coming from that. But that is actually underway, that contract has begun. Two other areas where we see opportunities for CRAIS: one I mentioned to you in the talk is unmanned surface vessels and unmanned underwater vessels, and we'll be keeping close to the Royal Navy and other navies as their plans for those things develop. They're really in an experimental phase at the moment, and CRAIS is clearly a valuable sensor in that sort of world, being lightweight and low power. And the other is as a submarine sensor. So CRAIS is potentially a good augmentation to submarine sonar outfits, and we've been talking to Elac about whether it might potentially be a good sensor to add on to the Italian submarines that they're providing the flank and cylindrical and other arrays for as well. So we see really quite a lot of potential for CRAIS, and as I say, that's actually started now with the first actual contract.
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Interviewer51:29
Excellent, very encouraging. Right, a final question. I phrase this very carefully. There have been a number of references in your presentation to a new Cold War environment, without implying that either of you were around in the 1950s. Can you give viewers a perspective of how important defense spending was to governments back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, presumably as a proportion of GDP, and is there a read across that might give some relevance to the current period?
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Andy Thomis52:07
Sure. I mean, I think there are plenty of statistics online. I wasn't around in the 50s, but I certainly was in the 70s and 80s, and you'll remember that it was a time of very strong defense spending. If I remember correctly, about 4% of GDP at that stage. And that was driven really by the concentration of forces either side of the inner German border. And I don't know when or how the live conflict in Ukraine will be brought to an end. I mean, the most likely outcome though is wherever it ends, we will have a similar kind of situation with a tense border with a strong buildup of forces on either side, with neither side being satisfied with the outcome. And certainly that will be the case in Russia wherever it ends. So I think even if Donald Trump is voted in as president of the US and even if he waves his magic wand and is able to bring that conflict to a swift conclusion, then we are going to be stuck in that long-term situation which is very hard to see how it might be brought to an end. If we think back to the Cold War, it was really a sort of differential in economic and industrial progress over many years that ultimately brought about a resolution to that conflict. And we could be looking at many years again.
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Interviewer53:40
Just a bit of Googling and the UK public spending stats show actually that at the end of the 40s UK defense spending was 16% of GDP, obviously post-war it actually declined to 6% in 1950 before sadly rising again, hitting 11% during the Korean War before falling back to 7% by the end of the 50s. So the lowest point was 6% during the 1950s.
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Andy Thomis54:05
It's yeah, so you can see where things were, where they are today, and potentially where they could go.
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Interviewer54:15
Yeah, and nobody wants a rerun of the 1950s, still less the 1960s and all the risks that we faced and near misses that we had. But sadly that's the situation we now face.
It is. And thank you, Simon. They proof that this is a live broadcast, very useful information. And I'm not going to comment, Andy, whether I remember the 1960s or not, but I've read about it. So yeah, that is a gloomy picture of the environment, but not necessarily a bad one for shareholders in Cohort. So I think a good note to finish on. So thank you to the audience for a wide range of questions, very interesting. I hope you're happy with the answers. Viewers will receive a brief feedback form which is very, very important for the company and ourselves to get your feedback. So please make some time for that. For those who arrived late, this webinar has been recorded and will be circulated in the next day or two. The slide deck is available on the Cohort website. And the presenters can't make forecasts, but there is a recently published detailed research note from Equity Development written by Mike Jeremy that is also on both ours and their website, with I believe a 910p target. The shares have had a tremendous run, but as you've just heard, prospects remain very encouraging, so that is a raised target level. And last but not least, thank you very much Andy and Simon for making the time, and wish you all the best for a continuation of the excellent momentum within the group. Thank you. Thank you, Andy. Thank you all.