CEOInterviews.AIVan’s ‘Obsession’ Obsession, ‘The Odyssey’ Wins, and the Life and Career of David Roberts

V

Van Lathan Jr.0:09

Yo yo yo thought warriors.

R

Rachel0:12

What is up? Higher learning is on. It is

V

Van Lathan Jr.0:13

I'm Van Lathan Jr.

R

Rachel0:14

And it's me Rachel and Lindsay.

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Lindsay0:16

Rachel, what did you do this weekend?

R

Rachel0:18

I did a lot. Okay. And I am tired. You know, I like to think that I'm young at heart.

L

Lindsay0:24

You're only as old as you feel. True.

R

Rachel0:26

I felt all of 41 this whole weekend. So I did like a competition thing Thursday which I kind of talked about, you know, we'll talk more about it later. Friday was still tired from the day before. Came here, podcast, had some meetings, did some other stuff. Went and played kickball on a Malleica Tubs. Had her birthday. Played kickball. Super fun. Love kickball.

L

Lindsay0:50

Where's it at?

R

Rachel0:50

You were supposed to be there.

L

Lindsay0:51

Supposed to go there.

R

Rachel0:52

I might as well be your assistant. I thought about that too. I was like I wonder if Van's supposed to be. It was really fun. It was at the park. I'd never been there. It's right by the Holocaust Museum across from the Grove. Pan something maybe.

L

Lindsay1:03

Pacific Park.

R

Rachel1:04

I'd never been there.

L

Lindsay1:05

Big park. Played kickball.

R

Rachel1:06

Gigantic staple of the city. But Pacific Park. Sorry.

L

Lindsay1:12

Gigantic park right in the middle of basically. Yeah.

R

Rachel1:14

Like I drive by there all the time and I've never. The park is kind of hidden off the street, to be fair.

L

Lindsay1:18

Pan Pacific Park.

R

Rachel1:19

Yeah. Think about it. Like it's right off Beverly.

L

Lindsay1:21

I know. But you don't see a park right there. You see like a recreation center and a parking lot. You have to walk past it and on the other street museum is there.

R

Rachel1:29

On Beverly, you see the recreation center. If you're driving up Third.

L

Lindsay1:34

Okay. You live over there, too.

R

Rachel1:36

If you're driving up Third, there's this gigantic huge area right by next to the Grove. That's Pacific Park. But why am I being pedantic about Pacific Park? You didn't know. You didn't know the [ __ ].

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:45

That's what he does. But we played kickball. I said I was going to chill. Ended up coaching, pitching, all being a cheerleader, all the things. I'm competitive, can't help it. So much fun. Great birthday idea. A lot of people came out to support her. Then Saturday, Joy had we drove all the way to Carson to celebrate Joy with family and friends, which was beautiful, really sweet. And then that night Tracy by trial had her birthday.

L

Lindsay2:13

I saw her going crazy.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:14

She as she should. She turned 40. Party bus, dinner, dancing that night. I had a party bus too. Me and Kika did. and Molly. It was just the girls. Party bus. We had a party bus at the in me, Molly, and Kika in April. We went

L

Lindsay2:31

I heard about this party bus. Everybody was on party bus going crazy.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:33

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Tracy did that. Great idea. Had so much fun. But I'm paying for it. Like my voice is just a little hoarse. I'm tired. Yeah.

L

Lindsay2:42

But a good time. What did you do other than not go to people's birthday parties?

R

Rachel2:47

So I did go to a birthday party. I went to Jamiey's birthday party. Jamiey's entire family. Jeremy turned 30. The love was palpable in the building.

L

Lindsay2:55

Saturday with Jeremy again,

R

Rachel2:59

Go to church on Saturday. And then

L

Lindsay3:02

There's church on Saturday.

R

Rachel3:03

No, excuse me. Sunday. Went to church on Sunday. First Congregational Church in Los Angeles. Great church. Love the church. And then World Cup final.

L

Lindsay3:14

You watched it out somewhere?

R

Rachel3:17

Went right after to a place in Korea Town. Watch the World Cup final which almost threatened my love for soccer.

L

Lindsay3:24

I loved the game.

R

Rachel3:25

It was phenomenally terrible to me.

L

Lindsay3:28

I love. So you thought England should have been there?

R

Rachel3:31

England should have been. You talking about the Saturday game?

L

Lindsay3:34

No, I'm saying do you think England should have been there instead of

R

Rachel3:37

No, I just think Argentina played from. And I'm not. Well, that's

L

Lindsay3:40

No, you are the. No, give them, give them, give them the Chiron at the bottom. I felt like Argentina, Spain doesn't have like an incredibly crowd-pleasing style. It's a ball control style. You can't get the ball from them. You know what I mean? They dominate possession and just wear you down like an anaconda. But Argentina also kind of played the worst version of soccer that you could play for people watching soccer for football or whatever.

R

Rachel4:14

Football. They seemed like they played purposefully to have the game be nil nil and try to win the game in Philadelphia.

L

Lindsay4:19

It did feel like that. Do you think that was the strategy?

R

Rachel4:22

It seemed like I mean that's what everyone's saying.

L

Lindsay4:24

I mean I think it sounds good to say that that's what they did or just Spain was just dominating the game. It was I like Spain so it was fun for me to watch, to watch the way, gosh, they, I mean dominating is the word I guess I'll keep using but the way that they were just like attacking the field and the way it works so well together. Argentina also did not have which J was around. Argentina also didn't have any shots on goal in regular time but that's also because they weren't really pushing it to get that. They were trying to lay back and really seem like they were trying to push.

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Rachel5:03

Do you really think that?

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Lindsay5:05

I think so. Let's call Jomy real quick because like what kind of I know that they have won games at the last minute, but I can't imagine that their strategy was to lay back so much that Spain had 20 shots.

R

Rachel5:21

20 shots and what, like 12 on the goal.

L

Lindsay5:24

Let's see what Jomie says. Is Jomy here?

V

Van Lathan Jr.5:27

Joy, soccer expert. Joan, here it is.

J

Jomie5:31

What's up?

V

Van Lathan Jr.5:31

Happy birthday. You on higher learning right now? Are you okay?

J

Jomie5:34

What's up, dude? You're not in the office, right?

V

Van Lathan Jr.5:36

No.

J

Jomie5:36

Okay. Do you feel like Argentina's strategy yesterday was to get the game to penalty kicks?

Absolutely, 110%. Argentina did not have the wherewithal, the skill, talent, nor could meet the level of the Spanish players in yesterday's game. And so their only recourse really was either Messi delivers an all-time moment for them, which he's done in the past, or we're gonna kick you, we're going to hit you, and we just got to get it to 120 minutes so we can hopefully win it on penalties. That was their only recourse in yesterday's game.

R

Rachel6:15

Joy, hi. But like,

J

Jomie6:17

Hi, Rachel.

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Rachel6:18

That Hi. That actually worked out for them because their goalie was just on fire. But isn't that a bad strategy? Because had they had so many shots at the goal, had they made even two of them, that would have been like what would they have done then? Then they would have been on the attack. I just sounds like a terrible strategy. They got lucky that none of those went in until the extra time.

J

Jomie6:43

Rachel, you're absolutely correct. It is a bad game process. But here's the thing. It's worked for them this entire tournament, right? The Cape Verde, the first game they played in the round of 32, barely. I mean Cape Verde has impressed everybody the entire tournament. However, if you're Argentina, that's a team you're supposed to put away, right? They were number one in the world. Cape Verde if I recall was like 67th, something like that. That's a game you got to win in regular time. Egypt folded, right? In the in the

V

Van Lathan Jr.7:13

They bottled it.

J

Jomie7:16

They bottled it. They absolutely bottled it. Okay. The next Switzerland, right? 1-1. Switzerland gets a red card. They still have to go into extra time to beat a 10-man Switzerland team. And then England in the semi-finals just completely capitulated under the immense pressure of being up 1 nil. Tool disaster class in coaching, right? So you could make the argument that frankly they shouldn't have been there on Sunday, that they got, I don't want to say lucky, but things fell their way. They again Cape Verde, Switzerland, Egypt on their way to the semi-finals. It's a team that when you watch, if you just look and say oh it's Argentina number one overall, okay yeah why would they be in the final, but if you look at how they played and who they played, you'd be frankly disgusted at the fact that they were there on Sunday.

V

Van Lathan Jr.8:15

I tell you what they still got though, Jomie.

J

Jomie8:19

What?

V

Van Lathan Jr.8:19

What they still got in Argentina? Even though they lost the World Cup, they still got something that's awesome. You know what I'm talking about.

J

Jomie8:27

Is it like crazy high inflation and whiteness? They got them big [ __ ] burgers, man.

V

Van Lathan Jr.8:35

They got them big [ __ ] burgers, man. Shout out to Argentina and the big [ __ ] burgers.

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Rachel8:40

What does that mean?

V

Van Lathan Jr.8:42

What you mean? What does it mean? Jeremy, tell Rachel what that means.

J

Jeremy8:48

Oh, so there is this a restaurant chain in Argentina. I don't know if it's a chain, but there's definitely a restaurant in Argentina called, and I know my mom is going to listen to this, so I'm just calling it what it is. Okay. Big [ __ ] Burger.

R

Rachel9:01

No.

J

Jeremy9:02

And the burgers are black. Like the buns are black. And it's called Big [ __ ] Burger.

R

Rachel9:07

Why have we not talked about this?

J

Jeremy9:08

I'm telling you. I'm trying to put you on it right now.

V

Van Lathan Jr.9:11

I promise you. Big [ __ ] burger.

J

Jeremy9:14

And they spell it [ __ ].

V

Van Lathan Jr.9:15

Yeah.

J

Jeremy9:16

What the [ __ ] do you think? Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.9:17

Well, it's Argentina. They could have put a hard er on it.

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Rachel9:20

Oh, you thought it was big [ __ ] burger. That would have been

V

Van Lathan Jr.9:22

I thought that's how you were saying it.

R

Rachel9:24

That would have been actually, you know, more G, but so it doesn't matter that Argentina lost the World Cup.

J

Jeremy9:31

The buns are black.

V

Van Lathan Jr.9:32

The buns are black. They got big [ __ ] burger in Argentina. Look, I got to be honest with y'all. So me and Joel was going back and forth on my god on tailgate and I was basically telling Joel that it's very rich a lot of times when Americans accuse other countries of racism, right? It just is because so much of the fundamental racism technology at least of the modern age was invented right here. You know, we could say that we're the whole ball of wax as far as that cons, but you can't get big [ __ ] burger going in the miracle right now. You just got to give it up. You can't give Big [ __ ] Burger going right now. You're not going to be able to have

R

Rachel10:11

Are there any outside of Argentina?

V

Van Lathan Jr.10:13

I mean, I don't know. But like what I'm saying is Argentina got Big [ __ ] Burger going and they got an Instagram page. Like they don't

R

Rachel10:20

50,000 people follow the Instagram.

V

Van Lathan Jr.10:23

To Joe's point, listen again, America didn't I mean we didn't invent racism, but we kind of you

R

Rachel10:28

No, we didn't invent it, but we

V

Van Lathan Jr.10:30

You know. Yeah.

R

Rachel10:31

To the clubhouse. However, Argentinian racism is different. You look at all the South American teams, they all got Brazil, Pog, like they all got dark-skinned folks. You look at the Argentinian team, that's a white team, brother.

V

Van Lathan Jr.10:49

Team Italians, white team, big [ __ ] burgers, bro. The [ __ ] I'm talking about, man. All right.

R

Rachel10:57

Well, thank you, J. Thank you for Soccer corner. Rachel didn't know about it. I'm upset that we are just now getting Joy's input because that was phenomenal. Joey, that was fantastic.

J

Jomie11:08

Do what I can. Do what I can. Thank you guys.

V

Van Lathan Jr.11:10

All right. See you, Joy.

R

Rachel11:11

I'm looking at Big [ __ ] Burger's Instagram. Tried to see if I know anybody that follows it. No. But then I looked at who they're following. Pretty much all white people.

V

Van Lathan Jr.11:21

Who are they following?

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Rachel11:22

Michael B. Jordan.

V

Van Lathan Jr.11:24

Big [ __ ] Burger follows Michael B. Jordan. Michael don't know that. Michael don't know.

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Rachel11:27

Of course he doesn't know that. Of course he. You think he knows? He's got millions of followers. No, that's not an indictment on him. I'm just. They have no shame is the point. I am shook. I mean, that's been a conversation, too, with. I let me just round this out. I did enjoy watching the game. I was hoping Spain would win. I got nervous towards the end when I saw what Argentina was doing and what they have done to Joey's point throughout the World Cup. And I thought it would be such a shame for Spain to be on such a roll even outside of the World Cup and lose this game. So I was happy to see them win. Conversation though on social media, a lot of black people were cheering for Spain because of all the information. But as one person said, it's like I mean I never thought I would be rooting for Christopher Columbus over you know all the things that happened in Argentina. It's everywhere. Pick the lesser of two evils I guess. I don't know.

V

Van Lathan Jr.12:26

Whatever gets you going as far as what you're rooting for. But there's no purity in it. So just root for whoever you want to root for.

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Rachel12:33

I wish we would have covered this last. I'm not going to stop thinking about Big [ __ ] Burgers.

V

Van Lathan Jr.12:38

Big [ __ ] Burgers. Yeah.

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Rachel12:39

I can't believe you haven't brought this on a podcast before. [ __ ] burgers, man. Black buns, bro.

V

Van Lathan Jr.12:46

They got an ambassador for that. Let me go.

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Rachel12:49

Let's see. Big [ __ ] Burger. I'm Look, look. Big [ __ ] Burger.

V

Van Lathan Jr.12:53

What?

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Rachel12:54

It's location is Diego Gibson 382. It's in Buenos Aires. Their signature burger is the Big [ __ ]

V

Van Lathan Jr.13:04

No. What is it? What is it? What is it?

R

Rachel13:06

Burger. The signature burger is the big [ __ ] and it has a 240 gram beef patty, cheddar bacon, red onion, and big sauce. So yeah, Big [ __ ] burger. Like everybody big [ __ ] and then people there have been food people that have apparently gone there, food bloggers that have gone there and talked about that they've gone to this guy named Harry Jagert. He said that he found the best burger in Argentina, the Big [ __ ] burger. So he says it's the best burger in Argentina. His name is at Harry Jagard. He says that's the best burger in Argentina, the big [ __ ] burger. So, [ __ ] him. Now I don't know if he was trying to go viral. Well, let me watch the whole thing. Oh, he says he can't say the name of it here. I'm watching it. But he's talking to Argentines and they're saying they're getting the big [ __ ] burger here. And it's like when you look at the big [ __ ] burger here, they got like graffiti inside there and the whole nine. This lady here, she's selling it. Now let me ask you this. Is it okay to eat the big [ __ ] burger if you don't order the big [ __ ] burger? Because what they doing right

V

Van Lathan Jr.14:25

Oh, you're contributing to the big [ __ ]

R

Rachel14:29

They out here dancing.

V

Van Lathan Jr.14:30

Ownership.

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Rachel14:31

Yeah, they twerking. He's twerking. This guy Harry is twerking. And they got [ __ ] written on the burger. They got like

V

Van Lathan Jr.14:40

they got [ __ ]

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Rachel14:41

What do you mean?

V

Van Lathan Jr.14:42

Because he know I'm saying that you think

R

Rachel14:45

they ordered a big [ __ ] so they had to put on the burger wrapping [ __ ] so people know which burgers go to which person. [ __ ] burger.

V

Van Lathan Jr.14:54

I've had enough.

R

Rachel14:54

It's enough

V

Van Lathan Jr.14:55

Mood set for the podcast. Let's go. I also watched Obsession and then got in trouble on Twitter.

L

Lindsay15:02

Wait, what did you write about it on Twitter?

V

Van Lathan Jr.15:04

Didn't write anything on Twitter. Like I at first

L

Lindsay15:08

Why did it take you so long to see it?

V

Van Lathan Jr.15:10

I saw it, but I fell asleep. I said,

L

Lindsay15:12

You saw it at home, though.

V

Van Lathan Jr.15:13

No, no, no, no, no. So, I went to the movies to see it, but it was a part of this whole thing that we were doing, a bunch of movies. And I went in, I was going in back and forth. I just literally I was kind of checking boxes and I fell asleep on large portions of it enough to see some of the scary parts, but I watched it twice this weekend.

L

Lindsay15:30

You liked it?

V

Van Lathan Jr.15:31

Actually, I did kind of the same thing with Back Rooms. I need to respin back rooms as well. So, I really was excited about Back Rooms, but a lot of people didn't like it.

L

Lindsay15:38

I mean, back rooms like I see it, but like I see these movies and I'm not paying attention a lot of times. Like, I have to see a lot of movies screen. I don't understand how Sean and Amanda do it. See a lot of movies in screening sometimes and the movies if I'm not podcasting on the movie and there's a screening for it sometimes I'll just be like in and out of it whatever I see and that's why I'm not a big movie watcher

V

Van Lathan Jr.15:57

Why

L

Lindsay15:58

Because I'm very much so the same way. It's hard to keep my attention. I'm thinking about

V

Van Lathan Jr.16:02

I'm also like overextending myself probably

L

Lindsay16:05

You are 100%

V

Van Lathan Jr.16:06

But I'll say this. I thought the movie was a really interesting just in watching it twice. I thought the movie was really super super super interesting. Like ridiculously, I don't know that I've been as taken by a film and what a film is trying to say in a very long time.

L

Lindsay16:30

Really?

V

Van Lathan Jr.16:31

Mhm.

L

Lindsay16:33

Okay. So which like the a lot of people and if you haven't seen it, sorry, spoiler alert, but it's not really I feel like you can really spoil this movie. I think it kind of is what it is. It's just more of like the direction the movie takes and the decisions that are made where the conversation comes in. But what who did you think was at fault? Like who did you think clearly was a victim?

V

Van Lathan Jr.17:00

Well, clearly Bear, right? Okay.

L

Lindsay17:01

So Bear is at fault.

V

Van Lathan Jr.17:02

But even the character of Bear is interesting in the way that he's at fault because it's a new way to look at the person that's at fault in a movie. The first thing I did, my snap reaction to the movie was that the movie is deeply interested in just nihilism, just the chaos of actual being. And I have reasons to believe that I'll talk about a little bit later. So, when I first went to Twitter, I go, 'Hey, do you guys really think that Bear was the villain of obsession?' And everybody's like, 'Of course he's the villain of obsession. He took away her free will.' Yeah, he pretty much knows that she's under the capture of this now on it. But like she tells him what she wants and he still ignores it when she says, 'Kill me.' Yeah. But he So that's what I mean. Like he's still allowing her not to make decisions and he's making them for her. Goes to

L

Lindsay17:56

Well, consider that though. That's an actual awesome scene to consider, right? So if you consider obsession, what would be the easiest way like an obsession for Bear to break the spell? The one that makes Bear the clear in a true morality tale like a savior. What would make him a savior? You mean so in even in that right so she's talking to him while he's asleep and she says kill me please. Well he has to kill her. Mhm. So that's So if Bear then kills her in that situation, like he's still not the hero of the movie. He's still not even he's still acting on behalf. He's taking her life.

V

Van Lathan Jr.18:36

Well, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't at this point because of the wish, which is interesting, right? Because morality tales prior to that do some different things. Have you ever seen Thinner?

L

Lindsay18:49

No.

V

Van Lathan Jr.18:49

So Thinner is a movie. It's based on a book or maybe a short story by Stephen King. What happens in this is that there's a guy and he's an overweight guy and he's like a just [ __ ] [ __ ] right? He's like just [ __ ] [ __ ] whatever. And he gets in a car accident where he hits a lady who is a gypsy. I know you're not supposed to say gypsy anymore, but I can't remember what a new age traveler. Put it like that. New age traveler. So he kills a lady with his car. He hits her with his car. He kills her. When he was driving, I think that he was like getting a [ __ ] from someone. It's been a while since I've seen this. Maybe like cheating on his wife or something like that, but he's like a or maybe he was eating a hot dog. He's a big [ __ ] [ __ ] guy, right? Okay. So, he gets cursed. I curse you, the woman says. So, he's going to lose weight, right? The woman who dies. No, another lady who's basically a witch. Okay. That like the whole thing is see like he's trying to get over on it's been a while since I've seen seen. Anyway, he gets cursed, right? And then he's going to lose weight till he passes away. At first it's like he's like, 'Oh my god.' Like, 'Oh, I'm losing weight. He's eating whatever I want to. It's good.' But then obviously starts to go bad. He seeks out this woman again and she says, in order for you to get rid of the curse, I have to bake a pie. Put the curse in the pie. You have to serve the pie to somebody else. And so you pass the curse on. But then she says to him very clearly, she says to him, she goes, 'But it's your curse. So why don't you just die? It's your curse.' Like the curse will die with you. You don't have to pass the curse. It's your curse. Why don't you just die? So, he has all the information and he makes a decision.

L

Lindsay20:37

I personally feel like obsession goes out of its way to keep Bear confused, to keep Bear shitty and cowardly, but also to keep him confused. Or to make the stakes for what he has to do so large that like

V

Van Lathan Jr.20:59

Doesn't he have to kill himself?

L

Lindsay21:00

Well,

V

Van Lathan Jr.21:00

That'll break everything. Right.

L

Lindsay21:02

Right. Okay. So, is I mean, what's he confused about?

V

Van Lathan Jr.21:08

He's confused about whether or not he wants to continue living.

L

Lindsay21:10

Well, it's Yes, but it's not confusing what he has to do. I'm not saying it's not hard to make the decision to that you have to end your life, but I'm saying it is

V

Van Lathan Jr.21:21

Well, it's existential. It's more sure. So, the move and that's what I think the movie is really interesting. It's existential more than anything because like Okay, so he has to kill himself. Now, let's say that in past versions of this, you know what they would have done? They would have just said to bear, they would have been like, 'If you break up with her, if you break the relationship off, the spell is over.' Right? And then the morality is like squarely shifted back to him. Because you can make the decision about whether or not he wants a slave or whether or not he wants her to be free. Mhm. The movie subverts that expectation almost on purpose. There is a conversation between Bear and the guy from the One Wish Willow company. Yeah. Do you remember how that conversation went? Yeah. Okay. So, Bear says he calls the guy on the back of the One Wish Willow box. And when he's talking to him, he says, 'Uh, okay. I would like to slightly alter the wish.' He still wants Nikki. Mhm. Right. And the guy goes, 'You can't do that.' Okay. He goes, 'Okay, just cancel the whole thing.' He goes, 'Just cancel the whole wish. Cancel the whole wish.' And the guy goes, 'You can't do that either.' So the whole time this guy's actually [ __ ] with him. Yeah. Like there there's only one option, but he's not telling him that, right? And then you know what the guy says, and nobody remembers this when I'm arguing about this movie. The guy tells Bear, he goes, 'You kind of have a moral obligation to be there for her.' Yeah. I don't remember him saying. Yeah. The guy the d the dude from the one wish willow thing says, 'Well, it sounds like to me that you kind of have a moral obligation to be there for her. If you're not going to die and you're not going to kill her, the only other thing you do, it seems like you have a moral obligation to be there for her.' And then he goes, 'Do you want to talk to her?' Yeah. And she's screaming in the background. Now, a lot of people go, I mean, Bear is certainly a coward, right? Like a gigantic coward. And a lot of people go, he should have wanted to speak to her right there. But by that point, I don't really feel like that's analyzing the scene correctly because by that point, number one, he's been jerked around by this guy. This guy's actively [ __ ] with him. And then by the time she gets on the thing, she's like screaming and whailing and he's a coward and he's afraid. Yeah. He was never going to talk to her like that. Almost in every single situation where he would get the opportunity to be like super clearheaded and make a decision, either he doesn't have all the information or he's scared. Mhm. And that to me is the movie. He is like that to me is the movie commenting on the folly of today's male and the weakness of today's male and how meeting the moment of actually being decent takes courage. Like it takes courage to actually be decent, right? It takes courage because sometimes being decent is taking a loss. And sometimes the decent thing to do requires bravery. It requires bravery to do that. And everybody that was making that observation I think is right in making that observation. This is like a lot of stuff in the movie though. There's like a lot of stuff in the movie specifically around that character. Because even though this is a the movie takes Nikki's free will out of the movie so early that there's almost not as much to talk about with her. I mean there is talking about the way the dynamic of relationships, the way he wanted to control it, the way he wanted the fact that he was a coward. He couldn't just talk to her and have a conversation with her and express how he felt about her. He'd rather take the easy way out. So, I think that there's that theme as well of if you're talking about current times and taking shortcuts, not just in relationships, but just in life in general, people want don't want to work hard for something or they're afraid of getting denied over something. So, rejected. Thank you. They would rather take the easy way out even if it's and we see him do that from the very beginning.

L

Lindsay25:40

That's actually not true.

V

Van Lathan Jr.25:42

Oh, okay. What's not true? That he took the easy way out.

L

Lindsay25:45

He actually didn't though.

V

Van Lathan Jr.25:47

Why?

L

Lindsay25:48

So, the first thing that you see from Bear in the movie is effort. He's rehearsing what he's going to say to her and he's running it by all of his friends. He's

V

Van Lathan Jr.25:59

Well, actually, that's the first thing you see, and this is another really interesting choice. What's the first thing that happened to be in the movie?

L

Lindsay26:05

He's sitting down. You can't see who he's talking to, but he's like pouring his heart out.

V

Van Lathan Jr.26:09

Okay, cool. And then what's the next thing that happens after that?

L

Lindsay26:12

The friend laughs at him.

V

Van Lathan Jr.26:13

No. No, no, no. His cat dies.

L

Lindsay26:17

Oh, you next scene. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Next scene.

V

Van Lathan Jr.26:18

So, the first thing you see from Bear is him attempting to. He's putting a lot of effort into this entire thing. He's putting a lot of thought into it and he's talking to his friend about it. His friend, who he also doesn't know, is already sleeping with this girl, right? But remember, he's talking to two friends. And the woman tells him, because remember, he's practicing to another woman.

L

Lindsay26:40

Yeah. But she's not a friend. She just works at the diner. But not a friend, but that woman says, 'That was amazing.' She's trying to tell him how great it is. And the other friend is like, 'That's awful.'

V

Van Lathan Jr.26:52

And the reason why he's saying that, right, because he actually tells

L

Lindsay26:56

We learn that at the end, though.

V

Van Lathan Jr.26:57

But he actually tells him that guy.

L

Lindsay26:59

Mhm.

V

Van Lathan Jr.27:00

That's why that's important. He actually tells Bear to neg her, right?

L

Lindsay27:06

He Bear. Think about the way the movie is set up. Like the movie starts and Bear is trying to be honest and forthcoming and real. His friend is actually encouraging him to neg her. His friend is the one that's saying, 'Call her freaky Nikki.' His friend is the one that's saying, 'Hey, you got to be mean to girls.' His friend is the one that's telling Bear all of this stuff. And you think he's just your garden variety Andrew Tate hyper. But he's actually somebody that's leading him astray purposefully because he's sleeping with Nikki, right? But Bear doesn't know that. Bear is just would rather listen to him and say even though you see that Bear is questioning that. Like he's kind of like that doesn't make sense. She hates that name. Why would I call her that? And rather than listening to the woman, he listens to his friend.

V

Van Lathan Jr.27:58

That's not what he does.

L

Lindsay27:59

Yes. The woman's telling him how great it is.

V

Van Lathan Jr.28:01

But that's not what happens, though.

L

Lindsay28:03

That's not how you interpret it.

V

Van Lathan Jr.28:04

No. No. No. No, no. The bear like like Ian tells Bear, 'Do not try to get with Nikki at trivia night.'

L

Lindsay28:11

Yes.

V

Van Lathan Jr.28:12

And Bear still tries to get with Nikki at trivia night. Like they go up to the bar.

L

Lindsay28:17

Yes.

V

Van Lathan Jr.28:17

They go up to the bar and every time Bear is about to tell Nikki how he feels about her, something happens. He's about to tell Nikki how he feels about her. Go back and watch the scene.

L

Lindsay28:28

Right. But after that, they're by themselves and he still doesn't say anything.

V

Van Lathan Jr.28:33

Just or he does the freaking Nikki thing.

L

Lindsay28:35

Hear me out. Like, so he's about to tell Nikki what's happening. Ian pops up. He's about to tell Nikki how he feels. Sarah pops up. Literally, the whole scene is going back and forth. He's about to say it. He's about to do it. And the entire thing is going wrong because somebody keeps interrupting what he is going to say until they didn't.

V

Van Lathan Jr.28:55

Right. When he goes then when he's leaving and they're about to like he's taking her home, right? He's taking her home. There's one scene and I think Curry Barker is genius just not forgiving this to the audience. They're going back and forth. He does the freaking Nikki thing. She comes back before this. Their relationship is actually based on a long mutual understanding of each other, which I think also people got wrong about the movie. One person said when Bear compliments Nikki, one person on Twitter said he always just talks about how beautiful she is and never anything more. That's not true.

L

Lindsay29:39

Yeah, that's not true.

V

Van Lathan Jr.29:40

They talk and they go, 'Hey, when I first moved here, like you were the only person that was nice to me. You were the only person that would talk to me.' Like his love for her is actually based in something that's actually more than like how she looks. It's actually based in the fact that like he feels like there's some kind of bond between them and that she's seen him like for whatever. When he is about to tell her how he feels, she comes up to him and goes, 'Hey yo, if you like me, just tell me right now.' The way that she said that would scare almost anyone that was in that situation. But if you remember before she said that, the reason that she said all of that is because he was in the car. There was a moment to say something. She gets out the car and comes back if I recall and then says that

L

Lindsay30:29

She gets out the car.

V

Van Lathan Jr.30:30

So there's still a moment. I what I find interesting is everything that you just said about Bear makes him so like you feel sorry for him before he makes the wish and you see what's all is going to happen. You feel sorry for him. You're kind of rooting for him. You see him. He's a very likable character. He just wants to connect with this person that he to your point I got. It's more than just what she looks like. It's the way that he feels like they're connected and all of that. And so like and you know he's kind of like not nerdy but just not the other guy, right? And so you want that for him. And then he makes that wish and that wish the way he words it doesn't reflect the way you were feeling at least for me prior to that moment.

L

Lindsay31:13

What did he say when he made

V

Van Lathan Jr.31:14

I don't have a whole word for word but the wish was like it was an obsessive wish. It wasn't that I wish that we would connect and that she would see you know that I like her. Like the way he was talking in the first scene what he said in the first scene is not how he wished it. The first scene where he is just wanting to tell her how he feels was heartfelt and genuine. It made the girl he was practicing with tear up. Mhm. The wish I wanted to like me more than anything. I wanted I wish Nikki Freeman liked me more than anything in the world. More than anything wanted anyone in the world. Yeah. It was one-sided. It was selfish and it was a turn. It's like a total shift from who he was that we first met. Or maybe that was who he always was. We don't know. And I think that kind of thing is interesting because even when as she's not she is everything that you said but it's not being reflected the way you thought it would. You thought well is he going to be that person that we met at the beginning or is he going to be that person who made the wish and you see that back and forth until the very end throughout the whole thing. I think his character is just really it's so good.

L

Lindsay32:19

So this is what I'll say about that. His wish reflected the way he felt. Mhm. So when he said he loves her more than anything in the world.

V

Van Lathan Jr.32:30

Oh yeah.

So his wish he said his wish was for her to love him more than anything in the world. Even something about the wish that's interesting. Another thing that kind of subverts the genre. Normally when you get the wish casting, the wish itself is the litigation of the morality.

R

Rachel32:51

Mhm. Mhm.

V

Van Lathan Jr.32:52

Because how does Bear get the one wish Willow? So she he's on the phone with her.

R

Rachel32:58

Right. Right.

V

Van Lathan Jr.32:58

And he's actually trying to tell her on the phone again. Right. He's actually because

R

Rachel33:02

cuz she's not he's not going to come.

V

Van Lathan Jr.33:04

And she's like, 'Please come.' and she says, 'Please come because she's about to like leave the she's about to quit the music store.' So, and even in that he he was like, 'Where?' Well, he thought that first that maybe she wanted him to come because she had secret feelings for him. But then she goes, 'I'm about to quit the music store. I'm not going to be there. So, would you please come?' So, whatever you were going to do, you probably need to drop it and come to trivia tonight. Right. So, he was going to tell it in it didn't happen. She drops her necklace down the thing. He then goes to the store to get her another necklace. This is all fantastic writing. Every single thing has a why. Like amazing writing. So he goes to the thing to get the deal. In in past movies, there's an old mystical person that goes, 'Hey, you don't want that.'

R

Rachel33:50

Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.33:51

And then he goes, 'What?' He's like, 'You don't want that. You actually don't want that.' You see this one wish willow actually the these come from the branches of a 50,000 year old tree in northern Africa that is planted and nurtured by these ebo witches that uh that have this mystical power or this is the first tree that granted wishes and then they show you back in the day Christopher Columbus making a wish and then the Colombian exchange happened. They go through a long way to let you know that this is a power that you do not want to be [__] with. This movie does not do that. And as a matter of fact, it does the other thing. It makes the people working at the store slightly incompetent. The girl is on her phone, right? The girl the girl is on her phone when Bear is trying to talk to her. And then when he is when when he goes to buy the one wish Will willow, he's actually asking her. He's like, 'Why is it [__] up?' or something like that. Like

R

Rachel34:52

because of what she says.

V

Van Lathan Jr.34:53

Yeah. Well, well, she she she says, 'Hey, just don't come back here.' Whatever. He go and he goes, 'Why?' He's actually asking

R

Rachel35:00

and she says people come back and want to return it,

V

Van Lathan Jr.35:03

right? But she never says ever ever gives any type of inkling that this is going to be the the kind of deal that it is. Never. He he he's actually asking almost the movie is almost daring us to have that moment. But once he has all the information, once a character has all the information, what they normally do is put what they want above the warning. And therein lies the morality. Therein lies morality. You put what you wanted personally above somebody telling you, 'Hey, don't do this. Don't [__] with this.' Even after the wish is made, another indictment on on modern culture. after the wish is made and he goes the first night and he goes to look up the thing. The reviews of the thing are so mixed. It's like trying to decide which restaurant you're going to go to.

R

Rachel35:51

It's like if it's like people tell you this restaurant is good and you go to get a consensus, but the movie is not interested in consensus.

V

Van Lathan Jr.35:58

The movie is not interested in consensus. It's it's interested in who is going to have enough gumption to stop this terrible thing from happening. And nobody in the movie kind of does. All of these characters are lying to each other

R

Rachel36:11

except for Sarah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.36:13

Well, she kind of was

R

Rachel36:14

cuz she didn't tell him that they were sleeping with each other and she knew.

V

Van Lathan Jr.36:17

She also It's really kind and

R

Rachel36:18

she likes him.

V

Van Lathan Jr.36:21

She likes him. So, if if if he is if that's a hanging offense for him, then it's a hanging offense for her. She didn't take anybody's free will by casting them until she didn't do any of that with the one wish Willow. I don't think she was to that point. She was going to Luther. But I think that the movie is actually the reason why the movie terrified me so much is because I think the movie actually has something uh more um more frightening to say

R

Rachel36:48

what

V

Van Lathan Jr.36:49

so there's a scene in the film cuz all the rest of this stuff it's clear that Bear's uh selfishness and all of that stuff get ratcheted up as he sees this woman go through all of this thing. it. Well, for whatever reason, he feels that he needs to double and triple down on whatever toxic [__] this is. As this clearly her soul is in peril and he doesn't have the gumption to stop it and like that's legitimately the people that we're sharing our community with. It's like commentary on that.

R

Rachel37:21

Bear's about to leave, right? Um and he's not going to bring Nikki with him. She runs back in and she grabs a knife and she stands there. Do you remember what she tells him?

V

Van Lathan Jr.37:33

She She stands there and she goes, 'Go ahead and leave and I'll be in the other room and I'll just slip away. First my hands will feel like they're made of sand. Then the rest of my body will feel that way. Spread across my whole body. I'll get colder than a refrigerator.' And she describes the transition from living to dead. And then she says, 'It's actually not that big of a deal. You think that you see black, you don't see black because black is a color. You just see nothing. It's kind of beautiful is the way she describes it. At the end of this movie, like that at the end of this movie, the person in the worst situation is her because she is the one that is still alive.

R

Rachel38:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The three the the the three of them are gone.

V

Van Lathan Jr.38:24

Like Ian's gone, Sarah's gone, even Bear is gone. To me, this movie has actually said that they've been delivered. But do you see the person that is going to exist on and have to negotiate and deal with every single thing that's happened? It's Nikki. Nikki has now uh wears the scars of life on her. Her face is messed up. She's changed her complete body. All of that stuff. Nikki's going to prison.

R

Rachel38:57

Yeah,

V

Van Lathan Jr.38:58

cuz she's like she's like she's killed three of her friends basically. They're going to blame her for Bear. They're going to get her for Sarah. They're going to get her for Ian. So like the movie is kind of this descent into existential dread because all of this stuff that's happening is kind of happening just from the weird sort of uh carnage of being around of actually being alive. And the people that get to exit that get to exit it in these like ridiculously violent ways. But the person that's left with everything is the only person that can still perceive. Like she legitimately comes back to life. You see it at the end of the movie. He dies and she goes and then she looks around and this is what all that that's allreaming. She's screaming and this is what we're left with. And then the movie actually ends with snow on the television to me which is once again kind of connecting the audience to that because everything that happens is so chaotic and it's it's all with intention but it's not clear the intention. Last thing I'll say I'm really is obsessed with this movie. I might watch it again even though it freaked me out. Last thing I'll say is Ian makes a wish.

R

Rachel40:18

Mhm.

V

Van Lathan Jr.40:19

And if the movie was consistent or if it was interested in being consistent, which is not, which also makes it fascinating, if the movie was interested in being consistent, the billion dollars would have fallen on top of Ian's head and killed him. But it didn't. He goes like, at this point, Bear's seen it. It's too much. Okay, just make the wish. The movie knows that there's an out. There's another One Wish Willow. Again, breathtaking decision. It's playing with you. When he goes back into the store, he goes, 'I don't know what you're talking about. There's no One Wish Willow.' A trope. Curry Barker is a genius. Cuz if he goes in there, it's like, 'We never had One Wish Willows. I don't know what that is.' Then we're like, 'What the [__] just happened?'

R

Rachel41:02

And that's what we normally see.

V

Van Lathan Jr.41:03

That's what you normally see. But the guy goes, 'No, I'm just [__] with you.' Yeah, there's one more. And then the guy once again is an [__] There's warnings all over the box. We don't in society read and heed warnings anymore. We don't read anymore. That's what we don't read and heed warnings anymore. We want quick quick gratification on things, right? So he he gets the one wish Willow. He tries to make the another wish. It won't let him. He gives it to Ian. Ian makes the wish. The money starts flowing right away. If if like the movie was really this evil Wishmaster situation, that money falls on top of Ian and that's Ian's death.

R

Rachel41:38

Mhm.

V

Van Lathan Jr.41:39

It doesn't want that. It wants Nikki to kill Ian. Mhm. It wants Nikki to kill Ian because like it it wants Ian's death to be completely unceremonious and it doesn't want you to be able to say that the one wish Willow is good or evil because a wish isn't good or evil. It's just a wish.

R

Rachel41:59

And that that's that would be an out.

V

Van Lathan Jr.42:00

It's the person it's the intention behind the wish. If the wish isn't good or evil, which you're right, it's the person who makes the wish that you determine is good or evil.

R

Rachel42:11

But what if it's not even that? What if sometimes it goes right and sometimes it goes wrong? Because that's life. Because if you look at the if you look if you look at the reviews for the One Wish Willow.

V

Van Lathan Jr.42:23

Yeah. If you look at the reviews, the reviews are saying sometimes it goes right, sometimes it goes wrong.

R

Rachel42:29

But I think it's related to I I get you. I just think that that falls back on the person. You're right. The person depending on how they make the wish, right or wrong.

V

Van Lathan Jr.42:39

That could be true. I'm not saying I think we're saying the same thing. That could be true. We can move on. But I'm telling you, I watched it and I first of all, aquest if if there is a villain in Obsession, Bear is the villain. No doubt about it, right? Because Bear is the one that continuously fails himself and and and everyone else. However, I don't know if the movie is as invested into the villain of Bear as it is with society as it is just like I I don't know if the movie is is as invested into his villain cuz it has so many times to make him a more active villain. It has so many times to make him to like legitimately go okay. It has so many points in the movie where it can go even the part where like the whatever I don't have to keep going going back over it but and it just never does that because I think that what it's actually interested in doing is just litigating the silliness of or or the direess or the carnage of all of this like of the entire situation like the the the whole deal. And uh like when I left it when I left the movie I felt like this deep emptiness. I didn't a morality tale ends with this is what you should have done or this is this is normally

R

Rachel44:04

you you don't think that it ended with this is what should have happened. I think it ends with it does end that way.

V

Van Lathan Jr.44:09

There's only one problem though.

R

Rachel44:11

What is it?

V

Van Lathan Jr.44:12

Is that bear? Okay last thing. There's only one problem. There's another one with Willow. That second one wish Willow is such a [__] There's another one wish Willow.

R

Rachel44:24

So there's a So there's a way to undo all of it. If he gives the one wish willow the end

V

Van Lathan Jr.44:31

and he he gives the one wish to he goes in just wish that none of this ever happened. Wish that I never made my wish. The next scene flashes back. We're back to the beginning of the deal and everything's cool. The movie actually teases you with the fact it it's teasing you by saying we can undo this right now, but things are already so [__] up that that's impossible, right?

R

Rachel44:54

Like things are already so [__] up that that's impossible. Ian is also

V

Van Lathan Jr.45:00

a [__] up character.

R

Rachel45:02

Correct.

V

Van Lathan Jr.45:02

Ian is a [__] up character because he likes the girl because he's been lying to his friend. There's no one that he can go to. Maybe he should try to go into Andy Richter's character. There's no one that he could go to at this point and ask him to do that. All of his friends are kind of [__] up. They're uh they're kind of shitty and they're shitty. Just shitty enough that they can't get a handle on this situation. The the it would have been easy to be like, 'Hey Bear, just to let you know, you know how I know Nikki doesn't love you like this? I know you because I've been sleeping with her for two years.' And that didn't happen overnight. Doesn't happen. So, like to me when I look at the the entire deal, Curry Barker has been very clear in interviews that he wants you to see Bear as the reason that all of this stuff happened.

R

Rachel45:49

He's been very clear about that.

V

Van Lathan Jr.45:51

But he also wants I feel like wants people to be clear at a certain point that it's that the real thing is that Bear doesn't go to the nth level to try to stop it, that he never puts the brakes on it. Um, I don't know. I just like I never saw one like this before. And I also think that it's also a reflection of a sort of greater nihilism that people feel.

R

Rachel46:16

I think that too

V

Van Lathan Jr.46:17

in a movie it like in a more Christian world. We talked about this last time where there's this this this like clear sense of right and wrong.

R

Rachel46:25

The Bible morality play and we've gone way too long on this. I'm sorry guys.

V

Van Lathan Jr.46:28

I know you didn't even want to talk about it at first. the but the the the the Bible morality play is like a retelling of Adam and Eve where like God says don't eat the tree off the fruit. Satan comes along and goes whatever whatever. I think that this movie subverts that and I just thought it was brilliant because of that. I watch I'm going to watch it again.

R

Rachel46:46

Wow. It is good though. It really really was good. And I love a movie when you leave it and you're having these kind of discussions immediately after it. That's not what I was expecting. And I don't really even think of it as a horror. I It's not scary. It's horror, but it's horror, but not scary. I was

V

Van Lathan Jr.47:00

That [__] was terrifying.

R

Rachel47:02

It was horror. I just wasn't scared.

V

Van Lathan Jr.47:04

She was so scary. I've never seen a performance that good in a break.

R

Rachel47:06

She was fantastic.

V

Van Lathan Jr.47:08

Like is it's Well, that's not true, but like she uh she was terrifying. And when she was jumping at him, walking backwards and all of that [__] like that, like which Hey, she was whatever.

R

Rachel47:20

I loved it.

V

Van Lathan Jr.47:21

Bar was a [__] ass [__] bro. All right, cool. All right, we're out of here. Um, no more popping. No, I'm just joking. Uh what's the what can we what can we go Donnie you take it away.

D

Donnie47:32

I mean I feel like a natural transition since we are talking movies we could talk about the Odyssey. Oh yeah. That wouldn't be a jarring turn. So uh yeah let's talk about that. Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey over the weekend made $124 million from just under 4,000 domestic theaters over the weekend. It's one of the best reviewed films of the year. Uh, and it this is all following very loud conservative criticism in the leadup to the film's opening centering around casting of uh Travis Scott, Ellen Page, and Lupita Nyong'o for uh, you know, they were like, 'This is Greece. These are black people. This is trans people.' People were upset about casting as they typically are,

R

Rachel48:13

you know, I haven't seen it.

D

Donnie48:14

I know, but this is

R

Rachel48:16

I haven't seen it.

D

Donnie48:17

This I

R

Rachel48:17

I will see it.

D

Donnie48:18

You guys, I got to tell you something right now. If you haven't seen Christopher Nolan's eyes, you go out and see it because it's a great film. Great film. Great film. It's great. But I tell you something. People are bending the knee.

R

Rachel48:34

What do you mean?

D

Donnie48:36

And to who?

The Odyssey made them bend the knee. The Odyssey made them bend the knee in a way I didn't think could still happen. Like Ben Shapiro had to go and call the Odyssey a [__] masterpiece and say Ben Shapiro, shout out to him. I I never thought I'd say that. Called Elliot Page by Elliot Page's name. Refused to dead name, uh Elliot Page, which is I want to take my shout out back because I shouldn't be doing that. But at the same time, this you know what really happened?

R

Rachel49:12

What?

D

Donnie49:12

During the last four years, these guys would do all of this stuff and they kind of started to capture a little bit of it almost became cool what they were doing. It almost became cool to be like, 'Oh, I'm in for the R word. Oh, I hate di.' We almost did something that almost never happened, which was lose the cool battle to the racist and anti-gay people. It's always been in mainstream American culture more cool to be woke. It's always been more cool to Marlon Brando was cool, man. Marlon Brando was a bisexual. It's always been cool.

R

Rachel49:58

Since when?

D

Donnie49:58

Well, I mean, to be honest with you, almost always artists and entertainers and all of that stuff that are typically left people to the left, that's always been the coolest place to be. No. Am I wrong about that?

R

Rachel50:10

I mean, I'm saying how far are you trying to go back about being woke?

D

Donnie50:12

Well, I mean, woke whatever. Well, woke is there's there's a there's a almost a theology that comes along with woke with the way woke was captured. What we meant was that we were just not asleep to all of the goddamn we were conscious to all of the goddamn microaggressions and [__] that we were dealing with. That's what woke really means. That's why

R

Rachel50:32

woke you mean more so like in entertainment like people who were who like spoke out who were rebellious. Not historically, because I think that that's that's where the line gets.

D

Donnie50:40

Well, I'm talking about historically in like in we're talking about a movie. So, in the movie space, like historically, they they've always been conservative people obviously like uh John Wayne was a huge conservative and stuff like that. But the liberals were were in places like Hollywood was full of liberals. New York was full of liberals. All this stuff was full of liberals and stuff like that with these liberal progressive values and all of these. If you go back and like if you look at Gloria Steinem's house when the Black Panthers were it's like there's a bunch of actors and all of those people in there that are talking about this stuff that stuff was always and that started to erode a little bit in the last four or five years to me. It started to become a situation to where people got so I guess sick and tired of whatever was going on that particularly these bro podcasters and all of this stuff. We almost start to lose that battle a little bit. It started to be something to where the you know that that the Cruel Kids Table came out that I think it was the New Yorker the Vanny Fair article where they're talking about this stuff. It's hard to be cool to be a racist and cool to be a homophobe and cool. You felt like the rebellious one to do that. You felt like you were the one that was rebellious podcast bros.

R

Rachel51:53

Yeah. Like you felt like that was it was actually rebellious to be like I will say the N-word.

D

Donnie51:59

But the Odyssey represents something. It's not the whole thing because you know Christopher Nolan has fascist messages in his music in his in his in his movies. But the Odyssey made them bend the knee. The Odyssey made them say, 'Hey, big [__] burgers. I don't want to eat them.' And all of them, all the right-wing people that called for the movie to fail and they were going to do the same thing to this movie that they were going to do to everything else. They couldn't do it. They couldn't do it. And it's a film that cast a black woman as Helen of Troy looking amazing. that cast a trans actor that cast all of these people and yet and still one of the biggest uh R-rated openings ever. It's a small it's not a meaningful victory, but it is a victory.

R

Rachel52:51

Okay.

D

Donnie52:52

You don't think so?

R

Rachel52:53

I mean,

D

Donnie52:53

damn it, Rachel. Get on a positive trend.

R

Rachel52:56

I'm I'm trying to look at what he said. Um, I don't know how much of what I'm reading is in the past or what he what he said currently, but

D

Donnie53:07

I don't know.

Elon Musk was like,

R

Rachel53:09

I know Elon Musk. I'm looking at Ben Shapiro cuz he made

D

Donnie53:10

trying to defeat the movie and saying that the movie was all of that and the movie was going to what whatever whatever. And now roundly, roundly everybody had to come back and be like, I saw the Odyssey. Actually, you actually see in some of the writeups from people, it's like, are we tired of calling everything woke? Like, it's a small little victory.

R

Rachel53:34

So, he said it was good. He didn't Are you saying he didn't particularly speak to the casting after he saw it?

D

Donnie53:35

Well, I think he spoke to the casting by actually not speaking to the casting. I think he spoke to the casting. I think the decision even in that to not dead name Elliot Page was

R

Rachel53:52

was it

D

Donnie53:53

I mean, that's an acceptance of Elliot Page's uh identity, which

R

Rachel53:59

well, let's see where he goes from here.

D

Donnie54:00

I'm not saying that Ben Shapiro has changed or anything like that.

R

Rachel54:03

No, you like him. He had a good moment for you.

D

Donnie54:04

No, I'm not talking about Ben Shapiro. I'm I'm trying to macro this situation here. Charles King,

R

Rachel54:09

you like it.

D

Donnie54:10

And what I'm saying is the moment um so look, Ben Shapiro, so I know a lot of people were like, 'Oh my god, Lupita Nyong'o is supposed to look like Diane Kruger.' I don't know. Diane Kruger doesn't look very Greek. She's German. Lupita Nyong'o is a beautiful woman. So, I'm not saying that that this is being demonstrated on Ben Shapiro's. I'm not saying this is anything great about him. I'm saying that we culturally can still make people bend the knee, which is very important if you're going to protect people.

R

Rachel54:44

Okay.

D

Donnie54:45

Oh, man. See, man. What? Okay. All right. Is a The Odyssey is a slight victory for woke is what I'm trying to say, y'all. I'm just very I'm just I'm just very positive.

R

Rachel54:59

Positive. What? So you you don't think you think is everybody they all had to eat their words, Ra. The movie did well. They all had to eat their words. Is there any

I don't think that he thought the movie was going to do bad because of it. I think that he thought he just did not like the fact that Lupita was Helen of Troy and he didn't like the fact that Elliot Page was cast. I don't think that they ever thought the movie would do I don't think they obviously they went to see it. I don't think they discouraged people from seeing it. They just had to in line with their base and their thinking or their coolness as you pointed out had to point out these things as problematic. But they still went to see it.

D

Donnie55:40

I don't think it's bending the knee. May maybe him. You must have not been up on the narrative before this.

R

Rachel55:47

Yeah, Matt Walsh and all them.

D

Donnie55:49

The narrative before this was that this movie was going to tank. It was another woke piece of [__] and don't go see it. They definitely said that.

R

Rachel55:57

I mean, he also said I just he said but people on the right were saying, 'Oh, it's going to bomb because of that.' He's talking about in reference to Elliot Page. No, the movie's not going to bomb because of that. That was his quote.

D

Donnie56:02

Right. So what what I'm saying is in this particular situation,

R

Rachel56:08

I'm just trying not to give him a thing.

D

Donnie56:12

It's not about Ben Shapiro. That's why that's why I always try to make it about something. It's not ABOUT [__] HELL, [__] HIM.

R

Rachel56:23

I actually refused to do a

D

Donnie56:25

take it back cuz you started off this thing with a shout out to Ben, but it's not about Ben.

R

Rachel56:29

That wasn't right.

D

Donnie56:31

I was just I thought it was important to give a shout out for not dead naming Elliot Page because I think it's very important to recognize people's humanity. But guess what, Ben Shapiro, you don't deserve no shout out. Rachel's right. [__] you, Van. Ben Shapiro, you're [__] you. [__] Ben Shapiro. No shout outs for doing the bare minimum of humanity. I accept what Ra is saying as true. All I was saying was in this situation, I'm going to chalk this up as a minor dub. I'm going to choose victory in this situation. The Odyssey opened big. The movie was good. The movie made the choice to uh cast a black lady as Helen of Troy to cast several black people. We talking about Lupita Nyong'o, but we haven't talked about Corey Hawkins, who was in this movie. We haven't talked about Zendaya, who is in this movie. Um, the movie made the decision that John Leguizamo is in this movie. Elliot Page is in this movie. This movie didn't care about Odysseus's, uh, crew, his his soldiers. Um, uh, like how much Dev Patel is in there. This movie didn't give a [__] about what nobody said about any of this stuff. And it still became a rousing success. So much so that these scumbags had to go on Twitter and bend the knee. That's a minor Vic.

R

Rachel57:56

So, the movie is really good.

D

Donnie57:57

It is really good.

R

Rachel57:58

Okay. I'm gonna go see I am. I'm gonna go see it this week.

D

Donnie58:00

Gonna see it with some popcorn. Go see in 70 millimeter and get some popcorn.

R

Rachel58:03

I'm gonna try.

D

Donnie58:04

You got to go to uh they got the Trojan horse outside CityWalk.

R

Rachel58:07

Oh, do they? Maybe I'll go see it there.

D

Donnie58:09

Yeah. Okay. So, now for the next 30 minutes, Rachel will talk and I will just I don't have anything else. I've I've done too much. I'm trying to be better.

R

Rachel58:17

No, it's just it's just movie. It's just movie stuff.

D

Donnie58:18

No, no. I love Obsession.

R

Rachel58:20

Obsession was good.

D

Donnie58:22

I think it's funny because I'm the one who was like, 'We should bring up Obsession.' And you were like, 'Uh, I don't know.' And then look at you and you

R

Rachel58:32

Well,

D

Donnie58:32

you had some things you needed to get off, which

R

Rachel58:35

it was okay. It was a great movie.

Donnie, take us to the next thing.

D

Donnie58:39

Let's talk about Angel Reese.

R

Rachel58:41

Oh, yeah. Let's do that.

D

Donnie58:43

Um, the head coach of the WNBA's Toronto Tempo, Sandy Brondello, was suspended one game for what she called Angel Reese after a foul in a recent game against the Atlanta Dream. Let's take a listen and see if we can make out exactly what she would later apologize for saying

as she rolled over.

Sandy Brondello pleads her case. Carl Smemesco has walked over closer to the officials. Wait, that was the clip.

R

Rachel59:13

You couldn't hear it.

D

Donnie59:14

You couldn't make it out.

R

Rachel59:15

Oh, what she said? She said it's real in the background species.

D

Donnie59:18

Oh, that's what she said. She Okay, cool.

She's talking to the refs and she's yelling and she's calling Angel Reese a protected species.

Does your opinion So, she's been suspended

R

Rachel59:29

for a game for what she said. She's come out and apologized. Donnie, do you have the apology?

D

Donnie59:33

I do. Um, she said, 'Angel, I'm sorry. Last night, in the emotion of the moment after Niara's injury, I used a phrase that I shouldn't have used, and I take full responsibility for that. My frustration was with the officiating, but my words unfairly put the focus on you. I also understand that my words carried an impact beyond what I intended, particularly for black women in our league, and I'm deeply sorry for that. I've spent my career competing with, coaching, and learning from incredible black women. I regret that my words cause hurt to a community I respect so deeply. I have a lot of respect for you as both a player and a person and I sincerely apologize to you, your teammates and the dream organization for my comment.

So the the the question I think is like an intent versus impact thing because did you know protected species is an Australian sports idiom that's used?

R

Rachel1:00:25

I learned it after this.

D

Donnie1:00:26

You learned it after this.

Same. So knowing that it this is something that they say in Australia to referees to show that you're showing favoritism to a particular player and they refer to those players as protected species. This coach is from Australia um played pro coach there for years. Obviously it's a term that is used quite a bit. Does the fact that that was the intent override the impact of calling a black woman in America a protected species?

R

Rachel1:01:01

You asking me?

D

Donnie1:01:02

I am asking you.

R

Rachel1:01:03

Uhoh. What's the smile for? Oh god. What are you going to say?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:01:12

So in any rational world, yes. But in the world that we live in where we're expected to deal in daily irrationalities that come along with the condition of our being, then no, this is not unlike the situation that happened with Tyla where where she's from, she is colored. And if you come over to America and you call a bunch and you tell people you're colored, we going to be like, 'What the [__] you talking about?' we live in an in any rational situation, we would be able to step back and go, 'Hey, she's using the jargon from where she's from. That jargon hurts us in a specific way.' Blah blah blah blah. But we don't live in irrational.

R

Rachel1:01:52

So, you don't think that she should have been suspended once you understood that her intent was to not um say it. Say you don't think she should I'm asking you.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:02:02

I'm saying that we're working towards a place where we could look at it with that type of context. But as for right now, we have to tell you how you not gonna talk about this.

R

Rachel1:02:11

But don't like So I think that's what makes this also interesting because it's the bigger conversation behind it of this is a woman. Yes, she's from Australia who played pro and coach. But that means you played basketball. You played professionally. You played against other black women. Now you're a coach. You coach black women. You're in this country. This isn't like some deep thing that's culturally known between black people. This is something that it is a very obvious thing. You don't need to know much about the history of America to know black people's history here. And calling someone a protected species here when black people have a history of being looked at as not human, not even being considered a fuel human, full human. How back in the day they used to use caricatures and cartoons to depict us as animals, as species. When you think of a species, you think of a plant or a an animal.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:03:07

A bug.

R

Rachel1:03:08

Bug.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:03:09

Mhm.

R

Rachel1:03:10

A pest.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:03:10

Get off me.

R

Rachel1:03:11

Yes.

I don't think that it's it takes that much to know or even understand that, especially when you've been around black people. You play in a majority black sport. So, I think that that's why I say the intent over or the intent over or the impact over the intent. Sorry, let me say this again. That's why I say the impact overweighs the intent here because thank you for teaching us that this is an Australian sports idiom. Don't really care because the intent is there. If you're Angel Reese and she's spoken on it, like I can't even imagine hearing somebody call me a species, a protected species. I don't care that that's okay there. This is where you are right now. And it doesn't take much, as I said, to understand that. So, the fact that she didn't mean it, it doesn't outweigh how it landed, how it made her feel, how it made her players feel, her staff feel, fans of the WNBA feel, knowing that this is something that you put out there. And then if, let's just say, they put the intent over the impact and they say, 'Well, where she's from, this is what's said.' Then how does that look? How does that look on the WNBA? that you're willing to excuse that. Does that open the door for that to be something that's used all the time under the guise of, well, that's what they say in Australia. Oh, that's just something I picked up. It's got to stop like she had to be suspended. She had to be reprimanded for it in order to stop it because of how much it lands toward and affects so many other people.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:04:45

Yeah, I I completely agree with you. I think I'm less interested in uh whether or not the WNBA had to suspend her. They clearly did because the WNBA has a responsibility to its players to continuously have conversations about their safety and not just their safety on the court, but their mental health. You have to do that. I think that there's maybe a larger conversation in both the Tyler situation and this situation about whether or not this person is either a racist or insensitive. And I think those conversations matter as well. I can't say that this woman is is not a racist uh because she's white. So there's no way to know what's inside of her and also because of some historical realities about Australia and about the way Aboriginal treat people have been treated in Australia about their rights and what type of uh the it's a it's a whole thing about Aboriginal people in Australia where they live how they live how they're dealt with by systems. It's the same song and dance wherever you go. Right. So, I can't take But I do think that when we're talking about the intent, we're not even talking about what the WNBA did. If there is if something happens just on a human level and there is more information that helps me get a greater understanding as to why you said something and why you did something, then I'm I'm willing to listen to that. When it comes to you, that don't mean that you don't have to go sit down. You do have to go see.

R

Rachel1:06:24

Right. Right. I I more so was talking to you about the rational versus irrational part of it. I agree with you. When I first saw this, my immediately thought is, oh, she's racist. Then I get more context and I understand that this is a phrase that's used where she's from and particularly not just the country, just in this industry in sports. So, I'm like, okay, maybe she's not. But then I'm also like, I'll make space for that. But the fact that how many times have you used this against other players who aren't black? The fact that you chose to use this against Angel Ree coupled with the history that you just talked about with Australia, it makes me think of what made you look at her and want to say that. Are you on record saying it other times? I just don't know. So now I'm like back in this place with I don't know if you are if you aren't. But I will make space for there is some context to it that we weren't aware of before. But I don't think that we need to look at it from an irrational or rational. I think it is rational for us to say, 'Okay, we understand that this is something that's particular to where you're from, but at the same time, this is extremely problematic and it's a discussion that we should have. I you and I both aren't the people who jump to like you're a racist, this is racism.' I think that that's more lowbrow and I think that that hinders a understanding each other and bigger conversations that you can have that aren't just as simple as the words being used, but the context of it, the history of it, all of that. And I don't think if you're a person who wants things to change, you can't do that, you

Can't go to name calling and assuming certain things without looking at it in totality. And I think her being reprimanded was necessary, maybe a little bit more than one game, but I think we also need to have conversations surrounding it. And I think that is all rational.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:08:12

No, when I you're missing me. What I'm saying about the rational and irrational is that if the world were a rational place, we would be able to... and I'm just so people know, I'm in completely understanding that it's not. If the world were a rational place where we were all able to investigate and interrogate people's intent to harm and not the actual harm that's done on accident by people who have more societal, economic, or cultural power than us. If we weren't in it is to me irrational to be in perpetual fight for your own safety. That's irrational. Like society to a degree, civilization to a degree is supposed to mitigate that with the reason why you know if you are a lion or if you are a gazelle, part of your existence is always looking over your shoulder for the lion if you're a gazelle.

R

Rachel1:09:17

Mhm.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:09:17

Right. But that's because there's no rationality in that. There's not rationality. The rationality or the law is survival of the fittest. Survival of the fittest. You eat what cannot run. You take all the and you put it in the middle of the weakest one. You put in the middle of the herd because you know if you don't do that the tiger or the lion will attack, right? But that's we're supposed to not have that. We're not supposed to live like that. We're supposed to invent laws and cultural treaties and all of that stuff that keep that out of that. But we failed at that.

R

Rachel1:09:52

We still do live in survival of the fittest. Maybe our nature is not as far from those animals as we think that it is. So that means that it can't even matter whether or not you were trying to be hurtful. The only thing that matters now is we got to let you know you can't say that.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:10:09

So in a world that I, hey you know I was raised in this situation or I come from this place where they say this and not one of the big ones, not big or any of those stuff, but protected species. The real one that would bake your noodle like the oracle is whether or not she's actually said that before and said that about like a white person.

R

Rachel1:10:30

That's what I yeah, that's

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:10:37

And not even said it about a white person. But if she had said it about a white person, would it even be news? So if she had said this and she was talking about Bana Stewart, it wouldn't have been news. It might have been a quirk, but it probably wouldn't have been news because there's an irrational difference, a disparity between the safety of Bana Stewart and the safety of Angel Ree. And we have to negotiate that in everything that everybody say, in everything that people do, in everything that in every way that we act, there is no parody there. So my say me saying that like in any rational world we would be able to take all and all of the information and go okay you didn't mean that but we can't do that and we won't do that until we get the society to a more rational place which will never happen.

R

Rachel1:11:28

Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:11:28

So no I wasn't saying that we were being irrational for being mean about it. I was just for not being mean about it for holding her to a standard. I'm just saying that like and it really Tyler's explanation makes sense.

R

Rachel1:11:45

What was her explanation?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:11:48

Like really that makes sense. But

R

Rachel1:11:53

It makes sense, but it's also a you should know better.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:11:54

Say that here because

R

Rachel1:11:56

Yeah, you should know that better.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:11:59

You got to know better.

R

Rachel1:12:00

Yeah. So it's weird. It's true. But hold apology rating now. I mean it was a good apology. You like it?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:12:06

It was a good apology. I can't She said everything she needs to say. She didn't make excuses. She could have easily been like, you know, that's what we say and I've said it before and I didn't mean but I didn't mean to. Like she took responsibility in the way the best she could after this situation. So she gets a six.

R

Rachel1:12:13

You know, that's what we say and I've said it before and I didn't mean but I didn't mean to. Like she took responsibility in the way the best she could after this situation. So she bent the knee.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:12:24

She bent the knee.

R

Rachel1:12:27

She bent the knee.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:12:29

That's what we need. I'm telling you. It matters. It matters. Just

R

Rachel1:12:35

Or she got knocked to her knees. Really? Like you guys, cultural power is sometimes about a Charles Oakley elbows. Like, you know, everybody does it. People all people only get mad when black people do that. By the way, any other group of people that go, 'Hey, don't don't don't talk to me like that.'

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:12:49

When she said it, didn't somebody get hurt?

R

Rachel1:12:52

What you mean?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:12:53

When she was complaining to the refs about what happened with Angel, it was after an injury, right?

R

Rachel1:13:01

Something had going on. Because I think that adds to the protect using the phrase protected species because I think Angel was involved with that and it was almost as if you're like calling her an animal.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:13:11

Yeah. You just can't you can't I mean I don't you

R

Rachel1:13:14

I'm just like saying it makes it even worse.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:13:16

Yeah. I'm trying to be you know you can't we're not you can't do that. Like we start we we start letting you guys get away with that and then before you know it you know we back in cages at King Leopold's house again. We can't like we can't we we can't let you not we're not doing that. And you know, maybe at a certain point we'll be able to kind of litigate these things more what you meant to do, but we can't do that right now. That's how

All right, let's talk about the Tate brothers. Andrew and Tristan were arrested by US Marshals on Saturday after UK prosecutors said that they brought further rape and sex trafficking charges against them. Britain's Crown Prosecution Service said the new charges relate to four further victims and were brought after authorities received evidence from Bedfordshire Police in England. The charges include rape, assault, trafficking, and offenses relating to indecent images of a child and extreme pornography. Now, these charges bring the total number of alleged victims in the UK to seven.

R

Rachel1:14:13

This is interesting to me because I'm interested in how much it's going to take for people who bought into the Andrew Tate thing to realize how stupid they were. Like what would have to happen because Andrew Tate is smart about this. Andrew Tate says, 'Hey, like maybe because he knew what he was doing a year ago, two years ago, he goes starts going starting talking about the Matrix. The Matrix is going to take me down. The Matrix is going to kill me. The Matrix. So now the people that really believe in these Tatisms, they're going to say, 'This is just the Matrix pushing back at them.'

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:14:55

Mhm.

R

Rachel1:14:56

And I'm always interested, particularly in figures like this, because Andrew Tate is essentially a cult leader.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:15:01

Very interested in cult leaders.

R

Rachel1:15:03

I'm always interested in how indoctrinated people are. Like, who is going to say this is a person who is a scam artist?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:15:10

Um, and someone who sold a lifestyle based upon your want for something that they are actually abusing people for allegedly. And look at the litany of things that they have them on. You don't want to be this person.

R

Rachel1:15:26

Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:15:27

I'm That's what I'm I'm never interested in like figures will rise and figures will fall, right? There's going to be the next hottest rapper. There's going to be the next political darling. I'm always interested in how people respond to this. Who are the rational people that'll be able to look at luminaries or other people that they thought had all of the answers and be like, I need to make some decisions about my life for myself.

R

Rachel1:15:58

Don't you think that a characteristic of falling into this from the beginning and choosing to follow this and believe this? You have to be irrational at some point. So, it's almost like you're asking for something or maybe thinking something will happen when it was never there in the first place. I like

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:16:18

Yeah.

R

Rachel1:16:18

You know what I mean? Like clearly the Tate brothers, Andrew Tate in particular, were spewing out this rhetoric to justify or normalize what they were doing behind closed doors.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:16:30

Yes.

R

Rachel1:16:31

They wanted it to make sense to the people who follow them for them to kind of not desensitize. I mean, it is desensitized, but almost as if an acceptance of making it okay based on this thinking that they were using to indoctrinate these people that were following them.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:16:48

There was you had to be irrational from the beginning or desperate from the beginning, seeking a certain community to make you feel powerful, putting others down, taking advantage of other people, allegedly assaulting them, like taking their humanity away from them, allegedly. You had to be okay with that or buy into that from the beginning. You know what I mean? So why would it change?

R

Rachel1:17:15

Because so for me I think that I am too into I've read too much about the cult stuff and so

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:17:23

Is there a through line? Sorry to not interrupt you, but people who leave cults

R

Rachel1:17:28

Um, is there a through line? Is there as as is there a common denominator as to why they choose to leave? And I'm asking that is it because is the common denominator that the person goes down and so it all just crumbles or is there a feeling is there a moment is there something that happens that usually cause people to causes people to break.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:17:51

So there's an ethical personality dichotomy that exists. There are certain people who join the cult because they believe that the person that is the head of the cult even though that person always has to be charismatic right is the best conduit to an actual worldview and for that person when that worldview shows inconsistencies they will leave the cult.

R

Rachel1:18:15

Okay.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:18:15

All right. Big picture person. But when the cult is about the person they will never leave because like if the cult is about the individual then anything that the individual does is right.

R

Rachel1:18:29

Right. Right.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:18:29

Right. So but there are people who join cults because they actually think that the world going to end in 21 days and all of that stuff like that. Then when the world don't end in 21 days they go okay I'm out. Now it takes a very charismatic person. You still have to be an effective cult leader because it takes a very charismatic person to make somebody believe some of this stuff because sometimes it's so far off the beaten path. But for those people when it's broken it's broken. The trust is gone because they're true believers.

R

Rachel1:18:58

Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:18:59

But when it's about the person it's very difficult to get the people away. It's very difficult to get the people extracted from that person because they believe they trust that person in a real way. And the reason why I am interested in this is because talked about it already. I see traces of it everywhere. Like I see people that go, 'Oh, this must be right because this person said it and I trust this person.' And that there's not one celebrity that we've given a slight bit of critique. The smallest degree of critique, the Barack Obama, George Washington thing, people George Barack Obama is the best of us, man. Blah blah blah. Looking for reasons to kind of make that work, right? And it's not the worst thing in the world, but I was kind of understand it. Not saying that Barack Obama is a co-leader, by the way. Haha. I'm saying that I didn't say that, so you can't clip that. But like what I'm saying is in this situation in situations like this I think that most people particularly now have the capability to be overwhelmed by someone's cult of personality.

R

Rachel1:20:14

Do you think that's because people are getting further away from religion?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:20:17

We talked about that a little bit. Yes. And they're choosing new religions. The manosphere is a religion. You could argue that woke is a religion to a degree. To a degree, not a to a degree. The manifest is a religion. Woke is a religion. MAGA is a religion. The far-left is a religion. The center is a religion. All of these things that are actually making people fight daily holy wars like every single day. There's jargon. There are ways to worship. There are proper ways to be. There are bad ways to be. There heretics. There are prophets. All of these things, it's all religion.

R

Rachel1:20:53

I'd argue social media is a religion.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:20:55

Yeah. Social media is the church for the religion.

R

Rachel1:20:59

Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:20:59

Social media is where people go to worship where they tell you you can't if you're not dressed, you can't come here. Where they litigate the rules of the religion and all of that stuff. Social media different preachers and leaders that pop up. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so to me, I'm always because even when Jimmy Swagger got caught up the first time

R

Rachel1:21:21

To bring him up.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:21:22

Hey man, the first time he got caught up, a lot of people stayed. But when that second tower hit, when that next one happened, people were like, 'We got we can't with it no more.' Jimmy got some things. Jimmy went to the well a couple of times, right? So I don't know. I'm always interested to see this because there are a lot of people who've made their reputation believing in Andrew Tape and it seems like the Tate brothers are in some real trouble. All right, what else? Donnie, what the else is going on? What the hell is happening?

R

Rachel1:21:53

There's some Fox News stuff. As Defense Secretary Pete Hegth, he's rolling out a mandatory hormone testing for troops, promoting high testosterone counts, high tea counts. Critics are accusing Fox News host Jesse Waters of trivializing sexual assault in this exchange. He says you you lose your endurance muscle mass. So yeah, I want these guys on it. But you know what's going to happen? The guys that don't need it are going to take it to triple boost. And then they're going to get out there and women on base, you guys better be careful. Port calls, women in Asia, you better be careful because these guys are going to be wild animals and you better watch out.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:22:35

Okay.

R

Rachel1:22:36

You should have held his hand. I Yeah, but I don't know if I would have.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:22:41

Dana, she's against it.

R

Rachel1:22:44

But that's all she could say.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:22:46

You went too far even for her. Who is that? What's her name?

R

Rachel1:22:48

Dana. That's what they just said.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:22:49

Okay, let's Dana from Fox. Let's see what Dana

R

Rachel1:22:51

Dana. Dana. Dana knew as Jesse typically does cross the line.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:22:58

Dana Parino.

R

Rachel1:22:59

It would have been great if she would have called out. Why? I mean, Jesse was waiting for the laughter. The laughter never came. Mhm.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:23:07

Well, he took it too far. He's making a joke about about sexual assault. And then these are the same people at the same time who will say, you know, the women are exaggerating or women this, like blame, but like you're literally making a joke about what would happen if testosterone levels increase and relating that to and specifically calling out Asia. So, Asian women talking about you better watch out, these men are going to be on a terror. Basically admitting that that's something that does and can happen.

R

Rachel1:23:39

Mhm. I mean, look, I don't I don't

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:23:42

Also, the testosterone thing is hilarious to me. I'm sorry that Hex Seth is going to test everybody. It's going to be an option. It's not mandatory, but if you have low testosterone, he's like, you're out.

R

Rachel1:23:54

No, he he wants you to take testosterone, which is like becoming a common thing. I know a lot of people that are on testosterone, both men and women, and that's also not necessarily how expensive that is for you to do safely.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:24:08

Pedex doesn't care. Money's money doesn't mean anything to them.

R

Rachel1:24:11

But that it will mean any do you does anybody understand like just how expensive it would be because if you start taking I'm not talking about you taking some kind of testosterone replacement. I'm not talking about that. But if you started like if you start doing like TRT like testosterone replacement therapy, then you got to get your blood work done every like 3 months, you got to come in for all kinds of scans because there's stuff in your body that the testosterone will grow. If you have tumors and stuff inside of your body, the testosterone will grow those tumors. It will like it's a cancer booster almost. So any So if we're just from a cost standpoint, if we're having a bunch of soldiers that are taking TRT because they want to be younger or whatever doing TRT, then along with that, we're going to have to give them all of this other supplemental medical that's going to be very very expensive. Has anyone even talked about that? I haven't anyone talked about that?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:25:10

No. It's just No, they haven't talked about that. But you're not wrong in what you're saying. It's just also just it just plays into I mean like this is like some Andrew Tate Type stuff. This plays into like the manosphere thinking that oh you have low testosterone. Oh that makes you less of a man. Here's an option. All you have to do is start doing testosterone testosterone testing and replacement theory and this will make you be this will make you more manly. This will make you better for war should we go into. It's just it's like so what's the word I'm trying to use?

R

Rachel1:25:50

Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:25:51

Like I just every anything any anytime there's a headline about Pete Hegath and something that he is doing to boost up the manliness or the religious aspect of the Department of War. It's just like what are you? He's such a joke. which I was about to say actually I'm not going to say that but he's just no no no no no no no he's such a joke but just I mean the bigger issue here is not even just that he's taking testo having these men test and have the option of taking testosterone which seems really irresponsible to your point

R

Rachel1:26:24

Low testosterone could mean that there's a deeper issue are you going to do the testing for that it's not a fix all like oh you're low let's just boost you up also testing like how it's going to affect your mood how it's going to affect certain other things and then the fact that Jesse Waters is like joking about the safety of women within the military and then women who might run into someone who's like it's a joke to them. Women's safety women's freedom all of that like it's

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:26:37

There's also last thing I'll say about this

R

Rachel1:26:52

And nobody reprimands this guy and the women just sit there and allow it to happen because how does the patriarchy say this again? How does the patriarchy continue? Women being complicit. Do you think that's the way the patriarchy can?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:27:05

That's one of the ways.

R

Rachel1:27:07

It can't exist without women being complacent. We've talked about this. We talked about this with Anna when she was here.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:27:12

Yeah.

R

Rachel1:27:13

Yeah. Yeah. I guess so. I mean, I'm not

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:27:16

I'm not saying it's the end all thing, but it is it is 100% why it can continue, right?

R

Rachel1:27:23

Hey, I'm not giving

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:27:24

When you have women on in the MAGA world who are like, oh, I want to be this. I want to be submissive and I want to do, you know, allow I want to do this and allow my husband to do this and I am this person like that. Like part of the reason it exists. I said part of it part of it. You're right. You're right. I'm like, 'Hey, hey, god damn it.' Now, I said, 'Hey, I think part of it is because the men who are against it aren't present enough.' But I understand where that too. Of course. Of course.

R

Rachel1:27:50

Um, so you know what's funny about this? You know what I think about this? You

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:27:52

What's funny, Jesse? Jesse, can I go can I go Galaxy brain real quick? It's like go way too deep. I think this testosterone thing from people like Pete Hexath is about something else. I think that there is a deep deep deep wish on the right to connect biology to performance in every single way. So let me tell you what I mean. So, it's not about how you make yourself, it's about how you were made. So, the good soldiers will be the soldiers that naturally have high testosterone because they're more man. The good people will be the ones that are born white because they're good people. The strong people will be the ones that will be born men. Then amongst the whites, the strong ones will be the people who have lineage in Harvard and Yale and Princeton because a belief a core belief of the right is of natural selection by God.

They don't believe necessarily in announcement. They don't believe that you announce yourself as a part of a society. They believe in anointment that that happens before you're even born. Right? You ever you guys remember the movie? I'll go back to another movie, Trading Places. The central argument in Trading Places between the brothers is one brother believes that your environment determines how you are. And the other brother is Mortimer and Winther. And the other Duke brother believes that it's in the blood. And what they do in the movie is they put Billy Ray in a situation where he has all the advantages. And then they watch Billy Ray shine and they take Lewis and put him in the ghetto and then Lewis starts freaking out and Lewis starts robbing people and that's the central debate between them. One is environment makes this. Another one is he says it goes it's like racehorses Mortimer it's in the blood. And this right here is little like this where they go hey we're going to test your testosterone. We're gonna like everything that Pete Hes talks about is this like sort of I don't know this like you're we're made this way. We're made to rule. We're made to fight. We're made to That's kind of what they believe and they're saying little when this happens. Jesse Waters right here who is a nerd. Jesse Waters has a belief of the way a man should be should be should be a man should be this way. And this testosterone, if you're low on it, is gonna make you into that type of man. He's talking about the way a man should act. Now, he didn't act this like he didn't act like this when Ryan Grim rolled up to him at the White House correspondents dinner situation and checked his temperature. You never heard that? You never heard about that?

R

Rachel1:30:46

You never heard about that?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:30:48

You never heard about that?

R

Rachel1:30:49

Ryan and Jesse Waters. What did Ryan say?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:30:52

So, no. Hey, man. This is not me, Dick Rod, and Ryan Grim. Well, just say what happened. Yeah, just tell the story.

R

Rachel1:30:56

Well, just say what happened. Yeah, just tell the story.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:30:57

Okay. So apparently in like 2015 or something like that, Ryan Grim rolled up on Jesse Waters and depending on what lore you believe about this, either Ryan Grim put hands on Jesse Waters and stuffed him in a locker or they just had a really really tense back and forth to which Jesse Waters kind of got his temperature checked. I did listen to some audio about this. There is audio out there. I did listen some audio. didn't really feel like one one person I saw said Ryan Grim beat the out of Jesse Waters. I can't find any evidence that that happened. But I can tell you what, Jesse Waters didn't act like he wanted it. Maybe he need to get his testosterone check.

R

Rachel1:31:36

No. When you surround yourself with people who laugh at your insensitive and sexist jokes, when you have people who aren't brave enough to stand up to you and call you out on the things that you do that are just basically a sounding board for you, why would you think any Why would he? Of course he's not. Of course he's not going to say

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:31:57

Is putting something in the I can share video of it about the Ryan Grim thing. I don't think that we really need it.

R

Rachel1:32:03

No, no, no. But it's just knowing that Jesse Waters is one person on camera behind a desk surrounded by a bunch of yes people and another person when he's out in the wild.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:32:12

You think that Jessica Tarlo is a is a yes person? I don't think she is. Is she from from the five? She didn't she didn't meet the moment right there.

R

Rachel1:32:20

She didn't meet the moment at all. That one was outright. That one was easy.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:32:25

She's definitely like pushed back on other things in ways that nobody else did, but her job. If she's not pushing back, she's not doing a good job. Would you ever be in a situation like that? Would you ever been in a situation to where you were cast as the voice of reason on a show?

R

Rachel1:32:31

Would you ever be in a situation like that? Would you ever been in a situation to where you were cast as the voice of reason on a show?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:32:38

No. Like Ebony K. Williams was on Fox News like that. I would I would I would be not the I would not be the person.

R

Rachel1:32:44

She was good at it though.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:32:45

She's great. I didn't say she wasn't. You asked me would I want to do that. I would be terrible.

R

Rachel1:32:50

Why would you be terrible? I just couldn't have composure and go through that every day and constantly be pushing back and listening to outrageous stuff. And also I would argue that it's worse than when Ebony was there. I

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:32:57

And also I would argue that it's worse than when Ebony was there. I

R

Rachel1:33:01

Now it is. Yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:02

Yeah. Like it's even worse than it was before. I would never put my I couldn't put myself in that situation.

R

Rachel1:33:06

Do you think my people do

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:08

Well, yeah. I think that they should there always should be like I mean if you can voices

R

Rachel1:33:12

If you can be a dissenting voice and represent yourself well, I don't think I would be a good representative.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:17

I think you do great. Well, I've never been in that situation before.

R

Rachel1:33:20

I think we should try to get you on the five.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:23

That's not going to happen.

R

Rachel1:33:25

And the first day,

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:26

They got black people there.

R

Rachel1:33:27

I've seen it. The first day for lunch at the five. Rachel's first day. Say, 'Rachel's here. Let's get lunch.' He had lunch flown in from Argentina. Big burgers, man.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:45

I'm gonna be I'm going to personify that. If that was lunch that was served, that would be I would actually be the featured burger in real life.

R

Rachel1:33:55

What you mean?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:56

Big

R

Rachel1:33:56

Big

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:33:57

I would show the out.

R

Rachel1:33:59

Going crazy. Going crazy. It doesn't work. Look, I've sort of been that person before. There's no sort of I have. But But

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:34:07

Not to that level.

R

Rachel1:34:08

Not to that level. Not to that level at all. Not to that level at all. And there's always somebody in there with me. Always people in there with me. Always people in there with me. Um, but there was a breaking point.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:34:20

There's a breaking point. I listen, I've been in situations, which is how you know you can't do it.

R

Rachel1:34:27

It was a breaking point. Big burgers.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:34:30

We have a very special treat on Higher Learning today. Someone that I have known for quite a while. Dave Roberts. Or should I say David Roberts.

D

David Roberts1:35:36

Thank you for having me.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:35:37

Okay, so I have to ask the big question. Why? Why are we retiring? Why is why is now the time?

D

David Roberts1:35:43

Well, you know what? The one thing that I've learned in life is that every aspect of life, whether it's a career, whether it's a job, whether it's anything, there's always a beginning, a middle, and an end. And you have to be strategic and smart enough to know when those parts of life happen. And so for me, it's just a good opportunity to look at the next chapter. And that's the focus. You know, I'm proud of what we collectively accomplished at ESPN over the past 22 years. And as I reflect on my career, I think that there's some good impact there that I can be proud of and hope that someone else can emerge and continue the momentum that's been started.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:36:34

It's really interesting because most people don't know when to hang up the cleats, as I like to say. Most people will have to be, you know, something has to happen or to be pushed, but to I think it's really profound to know my time. It's done for me. I'm going to move on to the next thing. Yeah. Like I think more people need to take note of that. Now, when

R

Rachel1:36:57

How did you know?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:36:58

Yeah. Okay. Right.

D

David Roberts1:37:00

Well, I'll be 70 in November. So, it it comes a time in life when you know when you know and I looked at what has been accomplished and I look at 22 years and also the fact that living in Connecticut for 22 years it'll be nice to live somewhere where I actually want to live.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:37:27

You don't like Bristol. I hear this all the time.

D

David Roberts1:37:29

Right. Well, you know what? Nothing's wrong with Bristol, but I grew up in in places like Detroit, worked in places like DC, Baltimore, and Atlanta. And so I have a wonderful CEO and my wife, Tiarica, who is making sure that we are set up nicely in Atlanta, Georgia, right?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:37:48

Yeah. Have you ever been to Bristol?

D

David Roberts1:37:50

No.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:37:51

It's no joke. You're being nice about it. It's rough. It's a rough place to live for 20 some years. That's all I'll say. You're from Detroit, right?

R

Rachel1:38:00

Um, I did not know this that your father owned a nightclub.

D

David Roberts1:38:04

He owned he owned a couple of nightclubs.

R

Rachel1:38:06

A couple of nightclubs. So what you started out there, obviously Detroit has such a rich history. What's a lesson that you learned from Detroit that maybe has stayed with you within these 50 years of media?

D

David Roberts1:38:20

That you really have to be patient and you have to pay your dues. When I graduated from college in 1978, a lot of my friends were working in the auto plants in Detroit making $18, $20 an hour. And when I first started out, I was making $3. And I said to myself, what the hell did I go to school for? This is what I'm going to get paid, $3 an hour. And then when you look back or look ahead to where I am 50 years later almost, all those auto plants are closed and a lot of the people that I grew up with are still in Detroit and unfortunately for a lot of them not doing a whole lot.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:39:06

You started out on camera.

D

David Roberts1:39:08

Yes.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:39:09

And then you went behind the camera which also is hard for a lot of people to make that decision. Usually want to be on camera for a reason, but what was it? Well, who was influential in telling you to make the switch? Why was that important for you? And how do you feel like that changed your career by making that decision?

D

David Roberts1:39:25

The person I owe that to is Cleveland Sellers. It was in 1981 actually. He had me over for spaghetti and fried fish with his wife Gwen. I'll never forget. And Cleers at the end of the dinner looked at me in the face and said, 'Get your so and so off of TV trying to be a TV star and get into a position where you can decide sh and you fill in the blank.' And it was in that moment that I decided that okay well maybe you know and he did a good job of explaining why because at the time I was a reporter in Greensboro, Cleave was out there leading protests and mobilizing the black community across North Carolina. So it was in that moment that that was a transitional moment in my career and in my life actually and it was at that point where I decided to get off the air and get into those decision-making career paths.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:40:30

So a lot of people have problems with that have trouble with knowing what power in media actually is. Is power the ability to communicate to people on camera and, you know, change hearts and minds or whatever, or is power choosing who gets to do that, right? What do you think?

D

David Roberts1:40:47

I think it's a question. It's a matter of both, actually. You know, being in the decision-making roles over the course of my career has allowed me to decide situations such as when I was in Baltimore for example the Million Man March happened and our station was a station that covered it wall-to-wall starting at 5:00 a.m. in the morning right until the very end. The other stations didn't do that. You have to be in a position where you can make those kinds of decisions on coverage and also who's on the air. I can remember also in that market where I hired Benjamin Hooks, former NAACP executive director, as a political commentator. So it's situations like that where you influence who's on camera and the stories that you cover. That's very important. And as I think about that, I'm thinking about the 60th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, the 75th anniversary of Jackie breaking the color barrier, and I was proud to be the one who said, 'Hey, we need to own this and make it the big deal that it is.' And so I was put in charge of both those anniversaries and as a result we had a positive impact on what people saw on their television.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:42:16

In a world where people seem to be scared of the word diversity these days, talk about like with what you've done and been able to do about the connection between success and diversity.

D

David Roberts1:42:29

First of all, I always operated with the understanding that diversity means to me making sure that the playing field is level. And you can't have diversity without a level playing field. And with a level playing field, then it's up to whoever is in the decision-making room to make sure that the people who decide what people see on the air, meaning as producers and those who are delivering that news, represent the markets that we cover. And so that's what I mean, and I've also learned over the course of time, it doesn't mean that every person of color, every black person is going to be the right person.

B

Brian1:43:14

Uh and and that's just part of the territory that you have when you're in a leadership position where you have to make tough decisions. Uh uh and you just have to have thick enough skin to say, 'Well, I really don't give a damn what so and so thinks.' At the end of the day, it comes down to ratings and revenue. Um but you cannot have ratings and revenue if you're not reflective of the market that you cover.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:43:41

So for you being a black man in that position, did was it sometimes difficult for you with the black talent that maybe didn't have the ratings or the revenue that felt like their perspective was worthy of them being on the air and you having to tell them you just don't simply have the numbers?

B

Brian1:43:59

Uh yeah, there are always there were always situations almost in every every market that I've been in where you had to tell people stuff that they didn't want to hear and as a result, you know, there could be drama associated with those kinds of decisions and you just have to be uh aware and willing to understand that that's just part of leadership.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:44:20

Did you feel sort of any responsibility to specifically nurture black talent? Meaning a lot of times I see this in other situations like sometimes you might be a little bit behind the curve uh because there are some systemic structural things that are slowing you down right you're competing with people whose accolades in this society might trump yours immediately uh because they had an easier path but when you get people on the job you see that there's a talent difference and that the candidate might be a better communicator. Was there ever a time where you go, 'Hey, you might not have it right now and your colleagues might be a little bit ahead of you, but we're going to make sure that you get every opportunity to catch them and maybe pass them because you're black and you have a background that denotes that.'

B

Brian1:45:16

Well, uh, there are so many examples of of African-American women, for example, or African-American talent that that I either hired or elevated or uh uh put in the right positions, right? And and is not because they weren't ready. It was just because they needed someone who would advocate and give them that opportunity. And I look at folks from uh Monica McNut to Christine Williamson to Andrea Carter to uh Chennai Aumay uh to Rachel at the time that we met and you you bring people on to the stage and then they perform uh and and you know and then there are others. So that's what I mean by when I when I leave that place um they are in a much better position in terms of diversity than they've ever been.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:46:06

Yeah. When you made the switch to go from news to ESPN, like what what were you hoping I I'm sure you couldn't have even imagined or maybe you did that you would elevate the way that you did, but what was what was crucial in making that decision to make the jump and what were you aiming to do?

B

Brian1:46:23

Well, when I came to ESPN, uh I I had been a news director in a lot of markets and news directors are like head coaches. at some point you get fired and that's what happened to me in Washington. I I was news director in DC for f four years uh and couldn't get the ratings up and so that's just part of the business and someone said well uh you know uh you could go and be a news director in Chicago or I remember Philadelphia or somewhere and I said enough of that merrygoround. So, uh, so that's when I came to ESPN and I came at a position that wasn't as high as the one that I left, but I said, 'Okay, I'm going to take, uh, the opportunity and learn the network business.' And and and that's what I did, whether it's radio or uh overseeing sports centers or different studio shows, uh, which put me in a position to, you know, constantly um, elevate myself.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:47:26

You were an executive at ESPN during 2020 when Black Lives Matter was was was huge and the conversation on air, you know, you have a lot of black talent. The conversation on air really had a mixture of sports and politics and culture and I feel like ESPN face scrutiny from the audience in discussing, you know, racial and political issues for you. How did you balance that? How did you handle knowing the importance of having the conversation? Also that your talent wanted to have the conversation. I'm sure people behind the scenes did as well. But then also, you know, doing that under Disney.

B

Brian1:48:04

Uh when you're in the room, you can say stuff like uh look, sports and politics, there's always been um uh a mix of both. uh going back to whether Jim Brown and in uh led the I forgot what the picture was that people talked about uh where it was Jim Browne Kareem Abdul Jabbar and a bunch of other folks whether it's the Williams sisters and and and what they had to deal with uh being up and cominging superstars in the sport of tennis and the racism that they endured. Uh so it's nothing new. It's it's a problem when you have executives who want to fall behind the well this is sports mentality and that's just never been me because that's not reality.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:48:53

Did you feel like any of the criticism was warranted?

B

Brian1:48:56

Which criticisms?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:48:57

The criticism of the way ESPN kind of dipped a toe into the 2020 thing but didn't quite commit to the coverage.

B

Brian1:49:03

Uh well, see, I actually thought we did. Uh and and and the reason why I say that is because uh I happen to have a hand in how we did it, whether it was putting the right people in place to talk about those issues uh and just making sure they were covered. Um u perhaps we could have done more uh but you know again uh that's a real subjective part. Uh but I was always unafraid to challenge within the organization that especially nothing drove me crazier than when I heard that well you know that's we don't mix politics with sports and uh covering issues like that is crossing the boundary of of uh politics into sports.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:49:55

You know, it does seem like that there was a a contingent of ESPN personality. It in in the time I don't watch too too much ESPN like anymore, but uh I still catch it, but there was a time where I watched a lot, right? Like a lot. I was raised on Sports Center and as I grew older there was a contingent of ESPN personality uh that was that had really direct like political, socioeconomic critiques. Bammani Jones, Jamal Hill, Michael Smith, Howard Bryant you'd see on ESPN all the time and a a lot of these people. It seems like now uh there's amazing talent, right, on ESPN right now, but it does kind of seem like they're they're sticking to sports a lot of the time outside of Ryan. Um and the the the the ladies do a fantastic job at framing the issues u that are being talked about. Uh L is phenomenal. Like the great talent there. I'm not saying anything about the talent, but it seems like there's been kind of a network edict to maybe stick to sports a little bit more than there was about 10 years ago. Am I reading that wrong?

B

Brian1:51:09

Uh I think the the edict is to make sure that there is a connection to sports. Okay. And for me it's always easy because uh you know I I I think in one of the interviews I did I told someone of um the story that um I used to be a Cleveland Browns fan. Tough. And uh yeah, and I used to wonder why uh 80,000 people would boo Davis every Sunday at Cleveland Stadium. He was right cornerback and he was excellent quarterback and you know I was a kid at that time and then you know my first news director's job I I had hired Paul Warfield as an NFL analyst. And I asked Paul Warfield I said why do they always boo your teammate every Sunday? He looked at me and he smiled and he said because that's Angela Davis's brother. Uh, you know, because or Angela Davis is his sister. And if that's not a connection to sports, connection to sports, that's a big connection to sports and nothing is. So, or or when we did the Million Man March and you had hundreds of of athletes on site and had I been at ESPN, that would have been a story I would have pushed. Uh, but it was, you know, at that time I was in strictly in the news side.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:52:33

Do you think that maybe some time ago that maybe there wasn't as much of a connection to sports, some of the issues that people were talking about? Do you feel like they maybe escaped what ESPN's wheelhouse is to get their political takes and thoughts off and maybe that hurt the brand a little bit?

B

Brian1:52:50

Uh perhaps, but uh you know I I guess I would need the specific example.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:52:57

Well, I mean you have like obviously uh a personal friend of mine uh but also uh just I say that just so people know that I'm being transparent, but also you have like Jamal Hill, right? And Jamal Hill on Twitter, not on ESPN, on Twitter, says uh uh Donald Trump is a white supremacist, right? And then Jamal Hill becomes a lightning rod for reasons other than the fact that she's talking about this on his and hers or on the Sports Center with Michael. She becomes she be it becomes Jamal Hill and her personal political beliefs. Um, but then also kind of like what people would do, I would see this whenever they would have problems with her is they would go at ESPN, is this what you guys are for? Is this what you guys are for? And then they end up going their own separate p uh you guys end up Jamal ends up leaving or whatever it ends up happening that way. So, is that the type of situation where when you're saying this talent being that outspoken, particularly black talent, is that something that's sometimes confusing or inconvenient for the brand?

B

Brian1:54:03

Uh it it can be mischaracterized. Okay. in and in in in the case of whether it's her or any talent. Yeah. Uh my my guidance to him is that you have to be uh strategically uh ahead of the game. And I don't want to say smart because we all know how smart most of the talent it can be. Not smart. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're very smart. Uh, but you know, you have to pick your battles and even I've had to learn that in over the course of of my 48 years in this business. So,

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:54:39

Are you concerned about your influence at ESPN? Like once you leave, are you concerned about like the work that you've done and and how influential you've been with black talent, black stories, black voices in addition to everything else that you do? Are you concerned that some of that may go away when you leave?

B

Brian1:55:00

Well, uh, I would say I would say this. Uh, I I had breakfast with about uh a dozen African-American employees out here, uh, on Saturday. Uh, and and my message to them is somebody else has to emerge. Uh, and you know, they're all saying, 'Okay, well, you know, who's going to be in the room?' I said, 'Well, you have to put yourself in position to be in the room.' Uh, and the only way you can do that is by um producing and delivering the results. Uh, and strategically or smartly picking the battles that you know you have to fight uh and and so but am I concerned? Well, yeah, I am. But, uh, that that's just human nature. But I do believe that we have enough good people in the pipeline that will continue to continue to uh build on the momentum and especially during this current climate that we live in. Uh it it's more important than ever.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:56:02

Yeah. Do you think that barriers still exist for black journalists and commentators and sports media today?

B

Brian1:56:09

Uh yes. And and and part of it is you have a lot of media critics who are, you know, who happen to be uh white. Uhhuh. And they only know one way of covering uh the media and usually like, you know, like I never get asked to be on on certain podcasts. Mh. Uh and and uh and and I just think that there's a lack of education, lack of understanding of people uh when it comes to to us. I really do believe that.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:56:46

So say more about that. Uh so when you say a lack of education or understanding, is that inside of the executive suite? Is that outside with media with media covering media? Like what don't they understand?

B

Brian1:57:00

Well, I'm talking about the media that covers the media. Okay. So, what they don't they understand like what look I'm I'm not tooting my own horn, okay? But, uh the fact that a lot of people in our business are surprised when they read my story, you know, I've only been around 48 years. So, if you're interested in the real principles of diversity, then you would know who the players are. M and that even applies in our community as well.

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:57:32

Of course, as you look at the changing landscape of just media and and people trying to figure it out cuz I feel like it's changing so quickly. Do you feel like in the future or even right now it's possible to talk about sports and sports only? Like is it the way things are changing? Is it more sports has to intersect with all of these things? And I say that in, you know, just last, you know, with FIFA and and what happened with the Trump administration. Um whether it be I just had another example and I just lost it. But like it just intersects so much with other things. Is it possible for sports to just be sports now or is

B

Brian1:58:11

I I don't think so. You know, I I because it all kind of Yeah. You know, I mean, every year at on April, the second week of April, there's a story being done about the fact that, okay, well, the number of African-Americans on baseball rosters is now below 8%. You know, back in the 80s, it was at 25%. So, you know, uh there's a reason why they have Jackie Robinson Day every April 15th, you know, uh because it's still a relevant uh situation, a relevant topic. uh or uh keep your eye on the lawsuit that was filed by Brian Flores, coach of the Dolphins. Uh he's winning a whole lot of court battles and it all comes back to whether the Rooney rule is right valid or not. So, so, so it's always going to be relevant. I don't care what anybody says. I was going to the example I was going to say is the White House. You know, when a team wins, you know, the championship, going to the White House is always talked about. Do you think networks get that? I know those conversations are had on podcast and, you know, maybe other streaming services, but like network television, do you think they understand that that's how the landscape is changing?

V

Van Lathan Jr.1:59:33

It depends. Not even changing. It depends on who's in the room, you know. uh if you don't have strong African-American executives in the room, then those conversations won't happen as often as they do or need to happen.

B

Brian1:59:50

And I want to emphasize sometimes they happen. They happen. Okay? But there has to be a degree of importance associated with those conversations. Uh when it comes to uh covering those topics and making sure you have the right people covering those topics.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:00:08

Um the ESPN in general uh when PTI comes in, right, PTI it introduces a debate format, right? So, first I guess I had watched the sports reporters was kind of a debate show. It's more of a panel show. The panel debates each other, but everybody gets I used to love watching the sports reporters, right? It's one of my favorite shows, right? Um but then PTI comes in and the debate thing happens. Then, uh cold pizza becomes first take. Cold Cold Pizza becomes first take and now we embrace debate. And now we embracing debate 247. Outside of the football coverage and the one basketball show, it seems like the majority of it is a hot take con contest. Uh is that good overall for sports discussion that so much has of it has devolved into who can hot take who else?

B

Brian2:01:09

I mean, do you consider get up in that category? A

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:01:12

Little bit. Not quite as much, but a little bit. A little bit. A a little bit. Not quite as much, though. But when I when I look at ESPN's football coverage, particularly, you can get smarter about football by watching Mina, Ryan, Swaggle, Dan. You can get smarter about football by watching them. A lot of times when you watching First Take, it's like just the empty calories. Like you can't really learn anything about sports from watching First Take. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

B

Brian2:01:46

The reality of First Take is it's the premier debate show on sports TV. It's a premier debate show on TV probably. I don't know too many other shows where people debate that are bigger than first. Yeah. And and the ratings, you know, I mean the show has set record ratings now three months in a row. and you know uh in its time period for the last several years right so it comes down to you have to know your audience uh first takes audience is predominantly African-American and it has been over 50% African-American and that's what the audience wants uh and now it's up to the people in charge that includes me to make sure that uh you that if it isn't substantative, then you have to make sure that there's some substance behind it. And we have those kinds of conversations even on shows like First Take. I'm talking about in the room after the show is over. Like, did we do enough? Did we educate people enough and all of that stuff like that?

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:02:55

Do you think that that type of sports programming um is starting to wayne a little bit? Because I'll even say like, you know, here at the Ringer, you got Zack Low, you got a lot of people and stuff like that. There are debates and stuff, but then there are just people that'll tell you what the rotations are. You can learn what a Ram screen is. You can learn the definition of the second apron. You can learn all about the new rules of the draft. And like if you listen to enough podcasting that's going on, you'll know at the end of a 1-hour podcast every team's salary cap position if you're listening to it. Like you'll just know only the Bulls and the Nets have money to spend. like what like like what's going like what's really going to happen? It just doesn't seem like that type of coverage. You used to be able I used to watch Edge NFL matchup. Do you remember that show? Yeah. I used to watch Edge NFL matchup on Sunday mornings really early and they would give you all the schematic breakdowns and all of that stuff on who used to host that show. I cannot remember who used to host. Um was it Antonio used to be Yeah. Yeah. So I used to watch I used to watch all of these shows to like get smarter about sports. And it doesn't feel like I'm not just picking on ESPN here, but even on FS1 and stuff like doesn't feel like that's what maybe the audience doesn't want that.

B

Brian2:04:08

That's what I was going to say. I don't know if they want that.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:04:10

Well, they there's a huge podcast audience for it, but I'm just saying like it it's it doesn't seem like that's what the the networks are into anymore.

B

Brian2:04:18

Well, it comes down to personality, okay? And people gravitate to personality. They go to PTI because of Tony and Mike. When Tony and Mike are not on PTI, there is a major drop in the radio. We want to see our uncles, man. Yeah. Yeah. They go to First Take because of Stephen A. Smith, right? Like him or not, right? That's what they go to First Take for. Uh another example of what I experienced in my career earlier, some when we became the number one station in Baltimore, people asked me, they said, 'Well, how did you beat WJZ in Baltimore?' I said, 'Well, I was an idiot when Montel Williams led into our news and I became a genius when we got Oprah.' So, it comes down to personality. Simple as that. People listen to podcasts if they connect with the personality. There are hundreds of podcasts out there that probably have two or three listeners per day, right? And that's because they don't have the personality. So, you all that that's the space that you all are in. So, uh something you could probably relate to there.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:05:23

Yeah. No, true. What do you want the next generation, you know, like as you think about what's next and you move on to the next phase of your career? Cuz I know you're not done. What do you want the next generation of black journalists and broadcasters to know that maybe nobody told you? Because I think a lot of people get um look at the current landscape, feel like maybe it's saturated, feel like they don't know what to do as media is changing. What would you tell them

B

Brian2:05:49

uh to to remain nimble because the business is going to continue to change almost every week if not every day. Uh and and to be uh to strive for excellence because uh you know nobody's ever going to be perfect but you can always strive to be excellent. And if you are excellent, then you can be in a position to impact the change that needs to happen. Uh and and hold each other accountable, hold yourself accountable for the results and and know the audience, know the market that you're covering. Uh and to always watch I mean I I always used to like watching to find talent, uh the right talent. Um, and and don't downplay the decision-m roles. I mean, I'm going to speak at NABJ in a couple of weeks, and the last time I did, I asked people in the room was like a 200, 300 people in there. How many of y'all want to be on the air? Everybody raised their hand. How many want to be in the decision-m leadership positions? Nobody raised their hand. So, hopefully this year that'll change. I mean, there's got to be more people uh willing to make decisions, take the flack in the controversies uh and and and and make the hard decisions no matter what. So,

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:07:19

Yeah. Well said. Being in leadership is a is is can be a lonely space.

B

Brian2:07:24

It definitely is.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:07:26

Like what you I tell you what you got to do, right? You got to every once in a while you just got to post from like Turks or Anguila or Greece when you take the wife on a nice vacation and you got to you got to brand it, right? Okay. You got to take a puff of the cigar and you got to be Dave the boss. It's like some of y'all trying to get five minutes on the air. I got 5,000 minutes on the head cuz everybody that's talking I put them there. They if you don't do it that way they're not going to want to do it.

B

Brian2:08:03

That is exactly how you would do it. Which is why some are here and some people I'm saying for me I'm just trying to make more people every every time I meet like the the young people now they go man oh man I'm trying to put me on and all that stuff like that. I mean, there's so many different ways to be successful, but it's a world where everybody wants their face on the cover of everything. And I get it.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:08:27

Same thing. I I That was awesome.

Yeah. No, I mean, if if you stayed being that person, where would some of this talent, myself included, be so I we wish you the best. I want to say thank you. I don't know what you saw in me years ago. You saw something. You gave me an opportunity. Stop laughing. You gave me an opportunity that changed my life completely. And it's no truly and it's why I'm here right now at the ringer. I left ESPN and and and came over here. But I know that so many people have the same story and you'll continue to get an outpouring of love and appreciation for all that you've done. And I know that you'll continue to do that whatever you do next.

B

Brian2:09:04

Well, you know, it it it seems like I said this I was telling uh my wife this I you know I'm actually surprised by the people's reaction. You know, I said I feel like it I've read my obituary and then they're going to have this recognition dinner for me. It's going to be like the repass. So, at least I'll know what it's like when the time is finally up. Anyway, so anyway, yeah.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:09:30

Well, we wish you all the best and look forward to Good to meet you, too. Nice to meet you, Brian.

Anything else? Do we care about uh John Federman changing parties? No, he's already changed parties. Yeah, but the fact that I guess he this is a red line. He's like, 'If the platform of the party becomes anti-Israel, I will officially leave the party.' He's never said that. He's actually always tried to kind of defend what he's doing. He's like, 'I'm still I would be a terrible Republican.' He would he almost tries to like I'm working to get along with him or I believe in this. I mean, he's always been a staunch supporter of Israel, but at the same time, he's still been like, I have not left the party. like he even put um I think he did an op-ed in Washington Post not too long ago about talking explaining the decisions that he's made and talked about still being a part of the party. This made news because he made it a one issue. If the this becomes a platform of the Democratic party, I will leave which is what got the conversation started because you don't typically see politicians. you're there to represent more than one thing. And this is obviously something that's controversial as progressives are becoming more outspoken, as just society is becoming more educated about Americans, uh you the US's role historically and in the present with Israel, um that it's a it's a bigger deal. And then it begs like why is this the red line issue? Should politicians even do something like this?

Is it? Of course not. But I'm just telling you like that's the conversation of like why this isn't to your thing. You said hasn't he kind of always been like this? And I'm like well this is different because he said this dare this. Yeah. He's threatening the party. If you do this on this one issue and he's couching it under it's a morality thing. It's a character thing. the judgment which is a whole another conversation of that's really rich to say in light of what's h what has happened and what is continuing to happen.

R

Rachel2:11:29

Yeah. You know it's interesting you know I you know just depending on where he's like going to go I think that particularly by the way we haven't talked about it but the Iran war is spiraling out of control. Yeah. So uh American service members were killed just recently. And even prior to that, the escalation ladder, while we're not scurrying up it, nah, we kind of moving pretty quick up that [ __ ] Um, at this point, Iran has distanced itself from theou. They're out of the is a thing of the past. No, is done. Um, Donald Trump is out of political options in Iran. Um, and the war now is kind of being waged all over the region. It only really takes the Iranians to go just straight up right now, regional war against anyone who harbors American servicemen because they are our enemies. Another thing that's happening inside of Iran I want you guys to all pay attention to. They're not supporting us, but Ground News is good for this coverage. Drop site news is good for this coverage. get some of this coverage on the nation. You can follow all kinds of different podcasts uh to the left and to the right and to the center. Obviously, I love the Bad Faith podcast. I love Breaking Points. I love all of these different places to go and get news and listen to like Al Jazer. If you guys want to go do that stuff, but also stay in touch with what's happening from the center of your media like Legacy Media here, CNN, and all of these places. consume all of this to try to see how the story is getting framed differently. I'll say this, uh there are some fissures inside of Iran. And that's very important to take to to take account of and take note of. Um because we decapitated their leadership, there's at least a small chance that the hardliners are uh well, not a small chance, it's likely that the hardliners in Iran were being held in check by the former Supreme Leader. Mhm. that while there's no possible way that you would call him a moderate, he essentially was stopping the true hardliners from taking complete control of the government. Now he's gone. His son seems to be wounded. Might be dead. Who knows? And those hardliners are making their presence felt in a real way. some of them hellbent on not just revenge against the United States for the action that we've taken, but also also seem to actually want to put their thumbrint on the region in a way. Look, I'm saying all of this to say that whatever political faction is in charge of Iran, they might not be very interested in making any peace because we preemptively attacked them for no reason. Well, I was going to say, we kind of touched on it before on the podcast, but like how did they come into power? Like what had to happen?

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:14:40

People died.

R

Rachel2:14:41

They lost family members. Like I like and and multi multiple people have died as we've talked about it on both sides. But yeah, like if they were already that way and then the reason that they've even been able to step into power is because of they have been killed at the hands of um from our country, then of course it's even worse. They're motivated by everything that's happened, right? And already prior feelings that they had in that situation. What I'm saying is that plus our proximity to Israel in that particular conflict, there might not be a political home for the pro or that that for the the pro-Israel crowd might see their political home in America shrinking. Period. And what needs to happen in that case is that there needs to be a reinvestigation or a recontextualization of our relationship with Israel. What Americans will take, what Americans will vote for, and what they're going to do. But for Fedin, I say all of that to say that he's going to have to ask himself where he's going to go. Well, I think that's why he made that comment because of everything that you just said because there is a re-evaluating a like a re-examining of the relationship in light of knowledge that people had or maybe that they weren't willing to look at prior to all of this that I think that the threat was because he does feel that things are changing. And I mean obviously it's in light of two of like Democrats, what was it like a hundred Democrats decided not voted not to send aid. This is him trying. This is him threatening for a reason.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:16:19

Yeah, he's threatening for a reason. I want to say this though before we got this. You know, this is just kind of blustered by him because the the top of the party, the power base of the Democratic party is still very very interested in the same relationship with Israel we've already had. like the people that are it'll be interesting to see what these presidential candidates I think most of the Democrats that you're you're talking about um if they didn't support the war they supported regime change in Iran and they were very very very delicate about how they discussed it well you know the Iranians are are the Iranian regime is bad have no love for it but the president has to follow the rules that's actually not what you say if you want to uh critique the war. What you what you say is that hey, we shouldn't be in there sending American troops and American money over there to fight a war that is not in our interest against a nation that hasn't attacked us. M on behalf of another nation or because another nation is interested in that war in their region. We shouldn't do that. Like no no relationship should denote that and we should kind of look at why we are doing that, right? Um, so you know that that being what it is, they didn't want to do that. They couched it and they [ __ ] ran behind it and they ran behind all of that. They they couldn't. They they still can't. So I don't know what the [ __ ] he's even talking about. He just doesn't want to be a Democrat anymore. He doesn't. So if you don't want to be a Democrat anymore, just don't be a Democrat. Nobody [ __ ] cares anyway.

R

Rachel2:17:52

Who [ __ ] cares?

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:17:52

Well, at this point, I mean, like, who [ __ ] cares? Like we can't count on we I'm not a Democrat. The Democrats can't count on See that happened long time identity can't count on Federerman for anything.

R

Rachel2:18:05

Yeah. Now I mean but remember when he came in he was a darling. He was a political darling. Remember what topic were we just talking about where you were like political darlings will come and go. He was he was up there. People loved him when he first came in.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:18:17

So so funny. Everybody used to this how you know it's all horseshit. Everybody used to defend him for the [ __ ] that they're making fun of him for now. Now I see people posting videos going, 'Uh, John Ferman can't even [ __ ] uh say a full sentence without whatever whatever.' But if you would have pointed that out before, you'd have said, 'Hey, John John Federman has had some real health issues and you're an [ __ ] if you say that about him.' But now, the same people that are off of Federman use that exact same thing. It's all horseshit. Yeah.

R

Rachel2:18:48

It's all [ __ ] Make up your own [ __ ] mind.

You know what it was that people loved about him at the beginning? He was an everyday man. He was an everyday man.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:18:57

He was an everyday man. No, no, no. He wasn't an everyday man. Cuz you know, like, you know, my dad was an everyday man. He was an everyday what man. Boy, they love it. Boy, they love it. I'm just going to pick You know what? You know what I'mma do? I'mma pick a random white guy. I'mma make him into a political thing just as on some bull work [ __ ] I'mma go

R

Rachel2:19:20

You don't have enough time, Van.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:19:21

No. I'mma do this over the next 10 year. Y'all not even going to know it. I promise you. Over the next 10 years, a plant, huh? Yep. Over the next 10 years, I'm just going to go somewhere. I'm going to be like, I'm going to see somebody and he's going to be working with his hands, tilling the soil.

R

Rachel2:19:37

Good luck finding him.

V

Van Lathan Jr.2:19:39

Working with his hands, tilling the soil. He's going to be tilling the soil. And that's that's the first political ad. Tilling the soil. Hey. Hi. I'm Mark Latimer. See how I do this soil? This is what I do to people. Sometimes you have to take the soil that's at the bottom and raise it to the top. And that way you get the nutrients because all soil needs is a little sunlight just like you. Put him in a [ __ ] hat or a cable in his sweater. This nigga's going until we find out he killed 140 people in Iraq. All right.

Take us out.

Take caps off. Do not stop learning. Till the soil. All the soil at the bottom needs is a little sunlight at the top.

Rachel and Lindsay. Bye, guys.

Van’s ‘Obsession’ Obsession, ‘The Odyssey’ Wins, and the Life and Career of David Roberts

About David Roberts