Once upon a time on a not-so-distant planet, a man dreamed of looking at Earth as no one had before. His idea seemed to come from a science fiction movie: building small satellites capable of observing the planet over and over again from thousands of kilometers up. In 2010, Emiliano Kargieman turned that initial vision into Satellogic. Today, his technology is already used in agreements with governments and organizations from the most diverse countries. For Emiliano, what started as a game is now a reality. Looking at Earth from space was never just a technological adventure for him; it was a way to understand what happens down here and make better decisions. Today on Hacedores, Emiliano Kargieman, the Argentine who turned a science fiction idea into a new way of looking at our planet, the Argentine who surpassed fiction.
Emiliano Kargieman, welcome. How are you?
Thank you, José. I'm very well.
You always took things apart. Since what age?
Since I was little. I don't know, I don't remember, but I do remember the screams of your parents.
Yes, yes. The quiet clock. But apart from them, psychoanalysts who told you what?
I started taking things apart at my grandfather's house, I think, because he had the tools. He had the toolbox there, so I would steal the tools and take apart radios. I don't know.
And what were you looking to find?
I don't know, I suppose how things worked back then, right? At 6 or 7 years old.
Besides, your friends were already playing soccer and so on, and you had other interests.
Yes, I was never particularly good at soccer, but I did sports. But I don't think so, yes, I was always interested since I was little, I was always a bit interested in seeing how things worked, I think.
What do you remember about the school stage? I mean, your parents wanted you to go to the Buenos Aires National College, they had like a mission, and you when I went... Yes, when it was time for my first computer, my parents gave it to me when I was 9 years old, and there... what was it? It was a Sinclair ZX Spectrum.
For those who think this is history, there it is. That one, that one. I remember it. There was the Commodore 64.
Right, the Sinclair that had a Z80 processor. And well, then there I learned a bit to program. I started learning to program. At 9 years old, I already knew what I wanted to dedicate myself to, I mean, I kind of had it clear. I thought I wanted to... through computers, I started to encounter mathematics. It was something kind of funny because I wanted to program little games and I wanted to do things that required me to do calculations and learn geometry and learn some things. And so I kind of realized that mathematics was a lot of fun for me, and I already knew I wanted to dedicate myself to computers, to mathematics, I had it more or less clear.
But, and what does mathematics give you? Because many who watch us say, 'Why mathematics, why is it important?' Well, I'll tell you with today's perspective, maybe at 9 years old I thought about it differently, let's say. But today, it seems to me that what mathematics gives you is a way of thinking about the world, let's say, right? I mean, the way of... it orders your gaze differently. Yes. The abstraction of mathematics helps you try to think about the world from another side, let's say, right? And I always saw it as a bit like the foundation of everything, let's say, right? I mean, so when it came time to choose a career, I said, well, I had been programming since I was 9, and I said, well, why study a career that has 50 years of history when I can study a career that has 5,000 years of history, let's say?
In school. In school, you were saying, to go to the National, were you a good student or a bit of a rebel?
Well, in primary school, I did well, let's say, I did everything I had to do, so I don't know if I was... I was a pretty good student, I suppose. And when it came time to go to secondary school, yes, there was a bit of a discussion because my parents, my mother especially, wanted me to go to the Buenos Aires National College, a school where, I don't know, they would teach me things. And I knew I wanted to spend the day with the computer and not be bothered too much. So, I went my own way, I ended up going to a school, I went to school in the afternoon and I stayed up all night programming, and I would wake up to go to school, and then, honestly, I didn't spend much time in class either, right? It was... you know, a while ago you would ask any of the successful entrepreneurs what career they studied, and many would answer programming or being a programmer and so on. Today that has changed with... Yes, for me it hasn't changed because I always had the idea that the best thing one can do is develop a point of view of one's own about the world, I mean, in terms of building a place from which to do things. And it seems to me that from my point of view, the best thing is always to study things that open your mind and allow you to discover universes. I studied mathematics, then I studied a bit of philosophy, but the idea was always that, I mean, trying to study things that opened my mind and a bit of that, right? I used to say, computer science is a science that has, I don't know, 50 years. Well, I learn it at home, let's say, no, I don't say, also no one is going to stand in front of me and have so much to explain to me about something that has so little history. On the other hand, philosophy or mathematics, studying it alone is a bit more difficult. You need guides.
And where do the points of mathematics and philosophy meet in a straight line?
For me, they are completely united, and I believe that almost anyone who has done either of the two careers will tell you the same, let's say, which is that there are many points in common in terms of abstraction. Philosophy is actually a super technical discipline. I think people have an idea of philosophy as, I don't know, someone lying on the grass, high, thinking about things. In reality, it is a very technical discipline, just like mathematics. Both are technical disciplines, and both work with abstraction, let's say, and trying to get to the center of what is the truth, what is not. And it seems to me that that unites them, and there are many people who take the path from one side or the other, right? Doing philosophy, then mathematics, or mathematics, then philosophy.
That completeness was also given to you by music here as a guitarist, but today you are with another instrument. How does that complete, those different passions?
Yes, yes, I was always a mediocre but passionate guitarist, let's say. I had several music groups when I was that age, I don't know, 18, 19 years old, a few years later too. Yes, I liked music a lot. I got hooked on playing, and now I still have guitars lying around the house and I play when I have a little time between meetings. And a few years ago, when we were living in San Francisco, I decided that I could try an instrument that I had always had a lot of respect for my whole life, but that I love, which is the trumpet. And I started studying trumpet, and I am a very bad trumpeter, but also with... But you have to put method into everything, a certain system into everything.
Yes, a bit, but the truth is that with music I take it very lightly, I mean, I already have method in too many parts of my life, so with music I am a bad student, I study a little every now and then.
And did you always have a method or was it more... You know that theory that if you dedicate many, many hours to something you can become an expert?
Yes, well, it happened to me once, but it happened with space technology, for example, but no, surely it's true, but it seems to me that the important thing is what's behind it. You dedicate many hours to something because you are passionate about it, you dedicate many hours to something because it's fun, let's say, right? I mean, it seems to me that that is the part.
We continue in that part. You already traveled in school with many hours of computing and suddenly it was chaos or control. For a little while you went to chaos with the hackers.
Yes. What did it mean to be a hacker in that time and why?
Well, it was a bit different from today, right? I mean, the world has changed a lot, the industry has changed a lot, the laws have changed a lot. In that time, I think it wasn't even illegal. No, what happened is that I started programming again at 9 years old, I had this computer at home, there were maybe at school, there were no computers at that time, some friends had other computers, but there comes a time when you say, 'Well, I want to learn more things, I want to see, there is another world out there, I know there are other computers, other operating systems, other programming languages, other things to do.' And clearly, from where I was, it was very difficult to access that, I don't know, at 10, 11, 12 years old. I was lucky at 12, 13 years old that a cousin of mine who moved from Mexico to Argentina arrived with an acoustic modem, which was a modem, it was a little box where you plugged in the phone tube and it served to communicate by phone with computers that were in other places. And well, it was a one-way street. From then on I said, 'Well, there are computers in other places, and I can start learning from them.' And well, the problem is that many of those computers were in places where the people who ran them didn't want me to come in to learn [laughs] and you touched those systems. So I started trying to find a way to enter those systems to understand how they worked. A bit the same thing I did as a kid with my grandfather's tools, but with the modem. And well, yes, I ended up, I made many friends along the way, we ended up, we formed a group of hackers in Argentina, called HBO, Hacks, and we spent many formidable nights breaking systems. In fact, they were noticeable, they appeared, we had like a little magazine that we edited, but in that time it wasn't even illegal, it wasn't even well known what it was. Yes, there were no laws against this. I mean, obviously it was questionable, I suppose, because we entered the systems of a bank, the systems of a university, or the systems of a telephone company. I mean, it was surely questionable, but we always did it. We never did damage, we never obviously stole anything, I mean, it was with the intention simply of learning how the systems worked, and it was the technical challenge of entering and controlling more complex systems.
And was it a bit of an act of rebellion or nothing to do with it?
I suppose so. There is a philosophy behind the hacker. I believe that from my point of view, the philosophy was always this idea that when they sell you technology, they sell it to you with a series of labels about what you can do with it and what you can't do with it. And there is a kind of hacker philosophy about information wanting to be free, and that when you own an object, you have to be able to take control of what it does. And it seems to me that part of that philosophy, I suppose, is at the origin of everything I have done in my life, I mean, from taking apart radios to see how they work to making satellites using components from cell phones, let's say, right?
We left that chaos stage, you went to Control. Control, you create with your partner Core Security, a company that was very important in terms of the clients they had abroad and so on, but very low profile. On the other hand...
Yes, when we started Core, I was, I don't know, 18, 19 years old, let's say, and we started doing the same thing we did for fun, breaking systems, but we started doing it for people who wanted to see how the security of their own systems was, right? So, they hired us to break the security, but to tell them what they had to fix. And we started doing that and we ended up making software that did that in an automated way, I mean, that allowed anyone to run software that simulated what a group of hackers would have done trying to break their systems and generated the reports that said, 'This is what you have to fix.' And I don't know. It was a super nice experience. I started the company at 18, 19 years old. I left when I was 30. We went from five partners who started Core to about 400 and something people when I left. The company still exists, let's say, it's still functioning. I left at that time and yes, 80% of the Fortune 500 were our clients.
You achieved international clients, super difficult to get.
Yes, at that time yes, because it was the first time that someone managed to package in some way this esoteric knowledge of what hackers did into a software product. So, it had a lot of impact. We had the White House, NASA, all the three-letter agencies you can think of in the United States, they were all our clients, Google, Microsoft, Amazon which were just starting at that time, I don't know, 98, 99.
Who kept you grounded? I mean, who kept you grounded in the sense of the ego of achieving something so strong so soon, the money...
I believe that again, my motivation was always a more intrinsic motivation, let's say, right? I mean, of trying to do things and build things. And money, I always had a weird relationship with money in the sense that I enjoy it obviously like everyone else, but it is not in itself what leads me to make decisions, let's say. I mean, obviously I prefer to have it than not to have it, let's say. And then, well, one grows, has a family, worries about the future of their family, I mean, there are other things, but at that time it wasn't the important thing for me. The important thing was, I don't know, it was like a more competitive thing in a certain sense, of saying, let's take this group of hackers from Argentina to build the best cybersecurity company in the world, let's say, right? It was like, there was also a thing of saying from here, from the end of the world, we can do something that has a global impact and let's push, let's say, right?
And your friends from that time, what did they tell you, let's say? Because it wasn't something normal, someone of 18, 19 building a company of this type after having been a hacker and reaching clients like NASA and so on.
Yes, I was always a kind of amphibian, I always moved in many worlds at the same time, let's say, right? I mean... That definition is great. So I was always very comfortable in that place, and at the same time, well, it's a story you probably don't know, but when I was... some of my first jobs were as a journalist, in fact.
I took a journalism course at Página 12 when I was 12, 13 years old, and I stayed working in the photo archive of Página 12 for years.
You also applied that method of searching and searching and searching.
I did, and I had radio programs, I would go to Lomas to do a radio program in the afternoon, and then I edited magazines. I always had several different worlds, music, writing maybe, and computers were always like parallel worlds, and always moving a bit from one place to another, right? Mathematics, obviously, which was also another world, the university, mathematics. Well, and that in a context in which technology is migrating, those who know say that the StarTAC is still your favorite, because of the analog, because of what it implies.
I liked the little noise it made when you opened it. I try to replicate it, I have a phone that also opens, look, see? But it doesn't make the little noise. No, it's not the same. It's not the same. No, the StarTAC, you know? You opened it like this, it was something else.
And that time. Where does that little noise take you? Does it take you to some image of your life? Does it take you to some context?
No, well, that maybe is that photo. It was that time when we were building Core, with the Leonardo Da Vinci t-shirt. And it was, well, working a lot, having a lot of fun, I mean, I think we were very... So it was, we spent all day in the office building Core and then we would go out all night and the next day we would start in the morning. It was like that intense time at the end of adolescence, let's say, the beginning of the 20s when one has a lot of energy, a lot of... still now too, the energy migrates as the years pass, you have to regulate it differently, right? You have to regulate it, you have to balance it from somewhere and sustain it.
Yes, yes, you have to regulate it. Well, speaking of that energy, we leave that world of Core Security and we get into what is your present, which has always multiple facets, the family on one hand, the business, the economy today that is prevailing in the world, which is this, right? Of looking beyond our planet Earth or looking at it with another perspective. When do you say I'm going to, in principle, democratize satellites?
Yes, after Core I went to set up a venture capital fund in CONICET, where we made technology investments in Argentina and in the region. And it's a fairly common mistake, I think, for people who leave their first more or less successful company, they say, 'Well, I want to replicate this in some way.' And maybe you see that the way to replicate it is I'm going to gather a fund and invest in other companies and help other entrepreneurs to travel a bit the same path. But well, for me it was a mistake. On one hand, I think it was very early, let's say, for age and everything, I was 30 years old, let's say, it was a bit early. On the other hand, I also maybe still had too much energy, it was like, well, I felt uncomfortable being on the other side of the table, you know? And I felt like I was holding myself back all the time not to jump to the other side and start doing things myself. And so at some point I realized that no, I mean, that maybe it wasn't the time and that I wanted to start a new company.
What was that fund called?
Ah, right. Yes, yes. Part of what frustrated me about CONICET was that I saw, it was, you know, 2007, 2008, and I saw the deal, what they call the deal flow, the projects that came to us to analyze, and it was very depressing. I said, 'The most intelligent minds of my generation are dedicated to thinking about how to sell advertising to each other, let's say, right?' And I said, 'There has to be something more important that we can do.' You cross activity and I go to what are the projects. But I keep opening windows for you, I keep opening windows. Yes. And well, so the first thing I did was set up like this framework. I set up this framework. I said, 'Well, if I complain about these projects, well, what is it worth working on, let's say, right?' And I ended up setting up this framework where I started to think a lot about the intersection between the production and distribution of food, the generation and distribution of energy, and the management of natural resources to be able to do that in a sustainable way. And in that intersection, let's say, if you want, between, I don't know, food, energy, and water, let's put it in that intersection, I said, 'Here I want to do something here because it seems to me that this is going to be the problem that our generation has to solve.' And well, I started trying to make decision-making models, I mean, how to make better decisions when one had to analyze problems in there, and I realized that what was failing us was not the capacity to make models, but what was failing us was that we didn't have the information, we didn't have the data to feed those models. No, you couldn't do what we are doing now, which is looking at the planet, let's say, right? I mean, seeing what is happening anywhere. And my ambition was very simple. I said, I want to be able to point to any place on the planet and see what is happening there.
You came here, I mean, clearly, tell me here, where do you want?
I don't know, here in Venezuela. Put, what is happening there now, right? How do you do it? So, I decided to attack that problem, right? The truth is that I didn't start thinking about satellites, I started thinking about the problem of how you could answer that question of pointing to any place on the planet and knowing what was happening, and I came to the conclusion that the best way to do it was to build a constellation of satellites around the Earth that would always be close to any place. This is a garage satellite. That was the first one we made. Yes, Captain Beto, yes, which was nothing, it was like this, you know? No, it was, I mean, we were testing technology, we were starting to do things. 2 kg, 20 cm, more or less. 2 kg, 20 cm, a size of a whiskey bottle, let's say. That is the definition. And this is a satellite. This is a satellite. The ones we make now are bigger, right? I mean, the new ones we are launching now will be the size of this chair, let's say, they have about 60 kg. We are making even bigger satellites. Now I'm going to Uruguay this afternoon because tomorrow we send the last satellite we made to the launcher, and it's a slightly bigger satellite, it has 120, 130 kg, and it's a new constellation we are making that will really give us, this new constellation will allow us for the first time in history to have a complete map of the entire planet once a day at 1 meter resolution. I mean, Merlin is the name of this constellation. The first satellite tomorrow we ship it, we send it to the launcher. By the middle of next year, that constellation will be complete, and there my vision of Satellogic will be completed. That is, well, I will be able to point to any place on the planet and know what is happening there. You will be able to point to any place on the planet and know what is happening there. Anyone will be able to do it. It took us 16 years to build the technology and the business model and everything necessary to get to this. But that was the idea, let's say. The idea was, the problem was, I want anyone to be able to point to a place on the planet and know what is happening. Why? Because I believe that governments, companies, and people have to make better decisions about how we safeguard and how we manage our planet to preserve it for future generations. And we can't do that if we don't see the consequences of our actions. So, that was the original vision of the company.
A thousand follow-up questions arise. Why is this that you tell, tremendously simple, tremendously complex for most mortals? Example, that satellite we saw there, Captain Beto, which comes from Spinetta, by the fascination you have for... why did you give it that name?
We named it Captain Beto, we launched it in April 2013, and the guy had passed away a few months before, let's say. So, it was a tribute to him. Yes, above all it was a tribute to him. But well, apart from the song, you know? It is, if one wants, part of the idea we had was to desacralize a bit this idea of space technology, you know? That people look at it as if only NASA could do it and only... and so we said, no, we are going to make a satellite in a garage and we are going to give it a name accessible to everyone. So the idea of Captain Beto traveling through space, let's say, with his ship from Chenaedo, seemed to us like the concept, let's say. Space. And then Fresco, what other names did you give?
Yes, we started with Captain Beto, then the next one was Manolito because it was kind of a cube, you know? So we said, very original of us. Then the third one was called Tita. It was a tribute to Tita Merello. Don't ask me why, but... You also went for the side of women. And then no. Then we did Fresco and Batata, and then we did a public contest and we ended up naming it Milanesat, and we said, well, it's over. It was getting crazier and crazier with the factory. The name kept changing, it kept rising, but... So from then on we said, 'No, let's give the satellites names of women who have had an important role in science and technology to push a bit and help push a bit the participation of women in science and technology.' So, from then on we started giving them names of women in STEM, let's say, right? Science, technology. But there you also started with this idea of giving data and having data. Who accompanied you in the beginning, let's say? Because this idea needed financing. You were talking about building satellites in a garage in Argentina. How was that construction of a purpose, but getting the funds to carry it out?
Yes, I was, in fact, I was in the United States when I started with Satellogic, but when I started looking at the regulatory environment in the United States to do space technology, I decided to leave the United States to do the technology and return to Argentina. And there, the truth is that at that time they gave me a big hand. I called by phone the people from INVAP, in particular, at that time it was Cacho Tejerina, the general manager of INVAP at that time, and Tulio Calderón was in charge of the aerospace part, and I had a relationship with them from before when I was at CONICET, we had seen some projects together and I don't know, and I called them and I said, 'I want to do this.' Tulio told me, 'You're crazy, it's impossible, but come because you're as crazy as I am,' let's say. He told me, 'You're out of your mind, but come, I'll open the doors for you.' And so they invited me, or they invited me to install myself at INVAP, let's say, so I occupied a little office under a staircase, Harry Potter style, let's say, a little door like this under a staircase at INVAP, and there I started to assemble a bit of a team, let's say, right? And the other at that time, who was the Secretary of Science and Technology, the Minister of Science and Technology at that time, was Lino Barañao, who also when I returned I called him and I told him that I knew him before from the CONICET time, a very good professional who transcended, he was also in Kirchnerist management, Macrist management, a technician with... Yes, yes, and really a guy who I think took a stand on a lot of things because he had a policy that is difficult to sustain in public office, which is 'pick the winners,' as to say, I'm going to bet on the things that I think are worth it. And in that sense, he was superb with us, and it was truly a big boost for Satellogic. So, well, thanks to that I said, well, I'll install myself, I'll install myself in Argentina. It also helps that I already had, you know, in Argentina, the people, the technical people knew me, so, you know, if anywhere in the world I came from elsewhere and said, I'm going to hire people to make satellites, they wouldn't have given me the time of day, but here it was easier for me to hire. So we ended up assembling a nice team in Bariloche. Then we ended up moving a year after we launched Captain Beto, a few months later we moved to Buenos Aires. But, and what place do you give to INVAP? What place do you give, for example, to CONICET? What place do you give to all these organizations, to Vengoa, to name a few examples?
Yes, the Argentine science and technology system has spectacularly good things and bad things, let's say, right? I mean, it seems to me that in our history it was extremely important, the Ministry of Science and Technology was important, ours, let's say. And in fact, I always say that Satellogic is largely the product of a country that, for better or worse, invested for 40-something years in space technology through governments of different political signs. Behind the original vision of Conrado Bértola, who was the founder of CONAE, he invested systematically in a sector that was rare for a country like Argentina, and that trained a lot of people, and we in some sense took advantage of many of those engineers trained in the Argentine scientific system, the Argentine technology system. So in that sense, enormous recognition, an important debt. On the other hand, the criticism I always make is to say, well, that's perfect, but on the other side, where are the 50 Satellogics that should be in Argentina, let's say, right? Because and there is where it seems to me that the Argentine scientific system has always hidden its head a bit when it comes to saying how we create value and how we return it to society in real and concrete value all the investment that society makes in us. Like, it has to be channeled more. I am the product of Argentine public education. I think I had a passage through a private school. I ended up in Avellaneda, then I did the career at UBA. I am a product of Argentine education, but I feel...
responsibility to give something back to the country based on that, right? And sometimes in the scientific system, it feels like the idea of generating value, generating wealth, and giving back to the country in that way is something that's foreign to them and that others should do. And that's where I think we still have a lot to learn.
Why did they call it Satellogic?
