Over the last two or three years, we've heard a lot about the people involved in the case between Blake Lively and Wayfarer Studios. But while we've heard and talked a lot about them, you don't too often hear a lot from them. A while after the case was settled, Steve Sarowitz reached out to me and we connected. I asked him if he would be willing to talk on the show because I had some questions about the way their faith was portrayed in all of this and just him and Justin and Jamey's relationship in general. And we finally got to sit down and do that yesterday.
Now, this interview isn't going to unlock any deep secrets about what happened. It is going to tell you a little more about who Steve Sarowitz is and who his partners Justin Baldoni and Jamey Heath are from his perspective. We talked about the Baháʼí Faith, which was degraded and painted out to be a cult in the media and apparently amongst people behind the scenes while everything was happening before the lawsuit. But what I read in the media was very different from the impression I got when I spoke to people who actually engaged with the faith and knew what they were talking about.
So, in the first part of this interview, we got to talk about some of the questions I've had for a long time about their faith. Then, we got more into talking about Steve and his family and Justin and Jamey and how they all got started and what kind of people they are. And he shares his thoughts on sticking by his friends and the harm that was done to them by the New York Times and others. I'm looking forward to you guys getting to hear a little more about who Steve is as a person. I hope you enjoy. Oh, and this is Lauren from the future coming to let you know that Steve was nice enough to do this with me from his phone because his internet went out. So if the feed on his side starts to look a little stuttery at some point, that's why.
If someone knows absolutely nothing about the Baháʼí Faith, how would you explain it to them? For starters,
The Baháʼí Faith is the newest faith in the world, the only new religion. The second newest religion would be Islam and the third newest would be Christianity. There's a lot of different sects, for example, the Latter-day Saints or the Seventh-day Adventists that are fairly recent, but in terms of new religions, it would only be the Baháʼí Faith. The Baháʼí Faith also, I would describe it as a faith which accepts the truth of all the other major faiths. We believe in the oneness of humanity, the oneness of religion. So we believe in promoting unity and peace wherever we go.
So you didn't grow up as a Baháʼí though. How did you come into that?
I grew up Reform Jewish. So I grew up in Reform Judaism and was a Reform Jew for 49 years. I became a Baháʼí 11 years ago at the age of 49.
Gotcha. Okay. What kind of got you there though? How did you find out about it? And was there anyone in particular who kind of inspired you to look more into it and start practicing?
I first heard about the faith when I was about 20 in college. And I loved the idea that there was a religion that didn't think that all the other religions were wrong. That like if I was a Jew, I didn't have to think that Christians are wrong, or Christians didn't have to think that Jews are wrong or Muslims. I thought, "Well, that's really cool. This faith believes in the truth of all the religions." That made a lot more sense to me, and that all humanity was one. And so I was attracted to the ideas of the Baháʼí Faith all the way back then. Being a young college student, I didn't really do anything about it. When I was in my 40s, I had a friend that I was running with by the name of Tim. And Tim invited me to go to a Baháʼí study group and I went and started doing that. And within a few years, I had decided that I really believe this and wanted to become a Baháʼí.
So the reason I got curious about this in the first place, I saw this article come out, and it must have been almost two years ago now, where I felt like they weren't really painting the Baháʼí Faith in the best light. Of course, it was going on around the time of some other stuff in your life, and they kind of painted the Baháʼí Faith out to be sort of like a cult almost. How did you feel about that? Did you read that at all, or...
You know, I knew that people had accused us of various things. I think people should study the faith for themselves and make their own determination.
I think it's silly to call the Baháʼí Faith a cult. The first tenet of the Baháʼí Faith is independent investigation of truth. So each person decides for themselves what they believe. There's no proselytizing, there's no clergy, there's no central figure that we follow, as would be typical. The faith is not secretive like a cult would be. All of our writings are very much in the open. Anyone who wants to can read the Baháʼí writings. It's quite the opposite of a cult in almost every in every characteristic. I love the Baháʼí Faith. I think people who take the time to meet Baháʼís and talk to Baháʼís and study the faith will understand that it's not a cult. If someone wants to call us something, it's probably out of ignorance and people can do that. That's their right.
Yeah. I mean, you can find online anywhere there will be people that come from a particular background or faith or any sort of organized religion who will have things that are negative to say about it, or just people who read about it. But when I talk to people who actually engage with the Baháʼí Faith and know what it is, I got a very different impression than I got reading about it in like a pop culture magazine, you know what I mean? So, it's just I don't know. I felt like that was what made me initially curious to where I was like, "Well, why don't I see if he's willing to discuss that a little bit?" But yeah, I feel like sometimes you see a lot of negative stuff about any kind of religion in the news, but I also think that it does a lot of good for a lot of people as well. But you don't usually hear about that because it doesn't make a headline, you know what I mean? So I think that kind of sucks.
I think all religions are good at their core. I have friends who are all faiths: Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Baháʼí. And anyone who's practicing their religion in the way that their original prophet taught it is doing good in the world. So Jesus said to love your neighbor, so did Muhammad, so did Moses. Baháʼu'lláh said to prefer one's neighbor over ourselves. And so I think that if you're doing that, that's great. The problem with religion is when religion divides us. And so all religion is really originally intended to unify us, and yet a lot of times you see religion preaching hate or people performing hateful acts, especially the fundamentalist types of religion, and that gives religion a bad name. But there are, to my knowledge, no fundamentalist Baháʼís. It's a relatively new faith, and Baháʼís I've met are generally lovely people.
That kind of reminds me, one of the things that I found kind of interesting about that was Baháʼís don't usually participate in partisan politics, to my understanding. Is that true? You guys don't really take a party line.
That's correct. The Baháʼís don't participate in partisan politics. We believe in issues. So, for example, I stand against racism very strongly, and I do that with my philanthropy. And if you ask me, I will tell you very strongly that I'm against that. I stand against religious prejudice, against all forms of hate. Some people think that if you're not partisan, you can't stand that way. And I think actually you can, and it's actually easier to be in that stance. Actually, my shirt says, "Justice is the best beloved of all things in my sight." And I think that what partisanship does is actually take away from that. It focuses you on hating the other party and the members of the other party and the politicians from the other party, and it takes you away from love and unity, which I think is what we all need to solve our problems: to see everyone else as your brother or your sister.
Yeah. I totally agree with what you just said, although I don't have a cool shirt. Mine just says Blockbuster on it. People put a lot of pressure on others to kind of take a stance politically on one side or the other, and they feel like you can't really be engaged in human rights issues or issues that affect the population as a whole without really being in partisan politics. Do you ever feel any pressure from anybody to kind of say that you are like a right or left-wing person, or are you able to navigate that line pretty well?
You know, there's always pressure to do things. People want you to do what they do. I set the line very quickly when people talk to me. I just say, "I'm a Baháʼí. I don't do that." And most people's reaction is that, "Hey, that's a pretty good thing."
I also embrace people where they are. So, I have friends who are on the left, who are on the right, and in between. I don't judge people based on their politics. And I think that's an important part of it is although I am not partisan myself, I don't tell other people they have to be that way, and I meet people where they are and I look for the positive. I think—and this may get people on both sides mad—I think there's good points on both sides of the aisle, and I look for them and I lean into them and I say, "That's a good idea." I look for good ideas regardless whether they're quote-unquote left or right.
Yeah. I'm very resistant to picking a side and I think that frustrates people sometimes. So, I actually thought that was really refreshing to hear because I get so sick of that. Because I honestly see a lot of extreme hate on both sides of the line whenever people are trying to force you to see things one way or the other. And I'm like, you guys are totally I feel like people are totally losing the plot sometimes because it becomes less about what we're actually talking about and what we want to do with it and more about just trying to say who's worse than the other. So I feel like that was something that when I read that and when I talked to people about the Baháʼí Faith, I was like, that is actually really speaking to me. So I like that.
I think oftentimes it starts with good intentions and then devolves into hate. So you see someone doing something bad, and actually both sides are adept at doing this: they point out to the extremes of the other side and then you tend to fall very gradually into this web of hate because now you're focusing—and it's very easy in society to fall into hating this person who might be doing bad things, but your hatred of that person is not going to help things.
Was there any particular teaching when you were coming into the faith that made you think, "Yes, this is what I believe, like this is what really grabbed you"?
Two things: the oneness of humanity, the idea that nobody is better than anybody else, whether they're rich, whether they're poor, black, white, male, female. I love that. Whatever country you're from, that resonated with me really strongly right from the start. And the idea of the oneness of religion also is really very attractive to me, the idea that we should be using religion as a unifying force instead of what it's too often used as, as a divisive force. Those two ideas really pulled me in.
There's a few other ideas along the way as I learned more that also were attractive. I come from a tech background. I started a SaaS company, Paylocity, which does payroll and HR. So I know a lot about science and technology, and one of the Baháʼí tenets I like is harmony between science and religion, that I don't have to have these crazy ideas that go against proven science. Equality of men and women is a really good one for me, too.
I think a lot of people have misconceptions about that. I have seen whereas I always read when I started looking into this stuff that there is that idea of unity and equality, but then I read people online and they would say like, "No, men are above women on this hierarchy," and I was like, I never got that impression from anyone who actually knew what they were talking about.
If you go to any Baháʼí gathering, men and women are treated equally. Women participate throughout the Baháʼí Faith. The only exception to that is the Universal House of Justice, which is nine men and nine men only. It's a position of service, and it's actually a very demanding position. So I've heard lots of reasons why it's only men. What Baháʼu'lláh said, the founder of the faith, is that we wouldn't know why that was the case, but at some point it would be very clear. So I'm not going to even guess why that is the case. In every other part of the Baháʼí Faith, from our National Spiritual Assemblies, our Local Spiritual Assemblies, our International Teaching Centre, women and men and the way we worship, women and men work side by side. And in a Baháʼí marriage between a man and a woman, we are treated in every way as equals; we're called helpmates. And so I think the way the faith functions is really very strongly embedded with the equality of men and women.
Okay. So you're obviously a very successful businessman, and I just wondered if your faith ever changed what you think your wealth is for and how you make your business decisions. Does that ever guide you?
Absolutely. So I already was inclined to be charitable. I've never been very materialistic. I've driven a Toyota for years. I don't have a jet, don't belong to a country club. I don't have a lot of the things you might think I might have. In fact, I've given away far more cash than I actually have. So I don't really live a very luxurious life, nor do I intend on living one. What the Baháʼí Faith has done is given me focus on how to give that money away and the meaning behind it. So, with the Baháʼí Faith, wealth is to be put forth for the betterment of the world, and I've always tried to do that.
So, with my philanthropy, I've given away already over $400 million and I intend on giving away hundreds of millions more. Really, the great, great majority of my wealth will be given away, today primarily to the Black, Brown, and Native American people, to women, because I'm looking to work with communities that are under-resourced. So I look at everyone as one. And so if there's a community that's receiving less traditionally, I'm trying to use my wealth to help them and help promote equality and fairness and justice.
With my businesses, being a Baháʼí, one of the things that the Baháʼí Faith says is truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues. So I try really hard to never, ever tell a lie, to be upfront and honest to a fault. And the other thing—and you may have noticed this a little bit as you've come across some Baháʼís—is one of the cardinal sins in the Baháʼí Faith is backbiting. So, I've been through some difficult situations recently, and I've been working really, really hard to never say anything bad about anyone else. What I generally will say is that person could work on honesty, or that person can work on truthfulness, or that person, hopefully they get a better connection with their soul than they have right now. But we are told very clearly in the faith that every person you meet is noble, and it's really a hard thing to put into place. But I'd have to ask you: you've interfaced with several Baháʼís. Have you noticed that at least we're trying to do that?
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I can see that. I think you probably have seen, since you've watched my channel, Little Girl Attorney. She's another person who's been covering the cases pretty closely. So she's someone that I've talked to that I noticed that about her.
Yes, I didn't even know she was a Baháʼí. I was watching her show for months and then I found out not only was she a Baháʼí, but I'm friends with her best friend. I haven't met her that I know of, but yeah, it's interesting because I don't believe I've ever talked to her, but I just didn't know she was a Baháʼí.
And I liked her channel a lot, just like I liked your channel. That's how we met.
What you said about trying really hard not to talk bad about people, I feel like this isn't really on a religious level for me, but lately I've just noticed there's this huge, disproportionate amount of hate for everybody involved in these huge national news stories, and it's been really weighing on me to the point where I've had to look at the way that I've talked about things in certain situations and certain things that I've followed and say like, "Hey, that wasn't really okay because I'm contributing to this thing that I can clearly see in other people is awful." So I think that that's something that I'm going to try to do better at because I don't want to cause any pain to people the way that I see other people are doing it. I'm not perfect obviously, still have my little crash outs, but...
I'm going to say, because I've watched your show for a couple years, I want to give you a compliment and say that you have always been a good-hearted person and it's very obvious that you are a wisher of good to others. I've seen you get angry, I've seen you swear, I've seen you do things that might not be—we're human—that might not be perfect, but you have a good heart. I've clearly seen that, and I've seen you always try to give your honest opinion. I think it's good that you're doing some self-reflection. We should always I do that as well. What did I do poorly today? One of the other Baháʼí sayings is to bring ourselves into account each day as if we are going to a reckoning. So that's essentially what you're doing, and I commend you for doing it. But I just want to tell you that I think you're a pretty good egg to start with.
Thank you. Sometimes it's good to hear from other people because I can do all the self-reflection in the world, but you can't ever see things from the outside when you're looking at yourself. The last couple months or so, it's just been really heavy seeing all these crazy things that are going on in the world and just the way people talk to each other and about each other, and I'm like, half the stuff you guys are saying isn't even true. You just want to hurt people. So it's like I got to work on that more. But thank you, I do appreciate that. That is encouraging.
I'm going to also tell you one other thing about that, and that the Baháʼí teachings say there's two processes going on in the world simultaneously, and they're intertwined processes: one is disintegration and the other is integration. So we as Baháʼís believe we're in this glorious new age that started in 1844, it's the Baháʼí era. And if you look at this logically, it really makes a lot of sense: 75% of the inventions in the history of the world have happened since 1844. Things like women's rights, civil rights, all these new ideas are there. Almost every field of human endeavor has been completely revolutionized. So there's a lot of positive things. Those are the light things.
And then there's darkness as well, and that darkness is from the institutions that are crumbling. There's an old world order that is literally crumbling as we see it, and it's based on superstition and division and anger and dishonesty and corruption. And you can see all those things out there very clearly. But what I've learned to do as a Baháʼí is to look, every time I see those negatives, to look for the positives side by side. And sometimes you have to get out of the room if there's too much negative, but always understand that underneath or around that negative is positive. In other words, there are people who are trying to destroy the world and people who are trying to build the world. I always want to be on the side of the people that are building the world. And if I'm coming against someone who's destroying the world or doing destructive things, I pray for that person. Some people have gotten lost in their own anger and their hate, but remember that's still a human being, and I hope that that person can learn to love. I hope that that person can become a better person.
Yeah. God, I feel like you're being my therapist right now. Sorry.
My mom's a therapist, actually retired.
